Where to buy oil stones?

[Bob Stroupe]

Do you have any recommendations on the best deals at the moment?
I’ve been searching through my stack of catalogs and eye balling a few websites that came up in a google search. I don’t want to cheap out and get some stones that are too small, too thin or just poor quality, but my pockets are not exactly full of cash. So, I'm definitely looking for the best bang for the buck.
I intend to follow Maurice Fraser's guide on the museum of woodworking tools website with an india/washita stone and a translucent/black stone followed with a strop.

[Joe Bailey]

I'm partial to this place: http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/

[Jim Koepke]

One venue you might consider is rock shows. I don't mean the kind with loud music. I bought a couple of nice pieces of translucent Arkansas stone for $1 ea.

Sometimes the gem and mineral people don't know exactly what they have. They may call it flint or even novaculite. It isn't finished to be a sharpening stone. Some of the pieces for sell might be flat or easy to make flat.

My experience was posted here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?148430-Unexpected-Gloat&

jtk

[David Weaver]

I'd say the first decision to make is whether you want black (you can get big ones fairly cheap) or translucent (you can't get big ones fairly cheap). Once you get that, I would figure out where you can get the black or trans stone you want, and then buy an india stone from there because the india is cheap.

if you are looking for a soft or hard (there's not tons of difference between the two) novaculite stone, there is some business that goes by the name "naturalwhestone.com" that cut me two big very nice novaculite stones that are 10x3x1 - one soft ark and one hard ark. Whatever they did to cut the stones, they came out very flat, and they were cheaper than anyone else. I sold the soft ark, but I kept the hard ark (they are not far enough different for me to keep both). If you're willing to scuff a hard or soft ark, they cut really fast. If you're not, they cut a lot finer than their grit would suggest - they have nice versatility and a good feel.

[Ben Beckham]

I got soft, hard, and black stones from Hall's Pro-Edge. I got the wide bench stone models at 12" length and I've had good success with them so far.


If you're willing to scuff a hard or soft ark, they cut really fast.

David, what do you mean to "scuff" one? If it could make my soft arkansas cut faster and be more different from the hard one, then this sounds like something I probably ought to be doing.

[Chris Griggs]

I got soft, hard, and black stones from Hall's Pro-Edge. I got the wide bench stone models at 12" length and I've had good success with them so far.


David, what do you mean to "scuff" one? If it could make my soft arkansas cut faster and be more different from the hard one, then this sounds like something I probably ought to be doing.

I believe David is referring dressing them with a diamond stone - soft arks are pretty slow cutting for there coarseness, but if you lap with a diamond stone before each use they cut MUCH faster.

Regarding Trans Vs Black - I'm not convinced it really matters, the little I've tried them side by side it seems they just have a slightly different feel. The Trans being a little more tactile/aggressive feeling the surgical being a little more smooth and glassy feeling (although my guess is that these differences will vary from stone to stone). Both will give a great edge when followed by a strop

BTW I have 2 8x2s from Halls - a soft and a surgical. Both are excellent and the surgical is exceptional. However, while they do lap their stones, they do not come as flat as I think most woodworker would want. If you are a stickler for stone flatness (I am) you will want to lap them when you get them.

While I love Halls, if I had wanted wide stone, I'd probably go with the Norton Med India, Hard/Trans Ark combo from Tools for Working Wood - it's a lot of bang for buck. My friend has the Norton Hard/Trans Ark and it is a VERY nice stone.

[Chris Griggs]

Hey Bob,

I have a spare 8x2 soft Ark from Halls - it has a tiny imperfection so when I got it, Mr. Hall sent me a new one free of charge and let me keep the original. Its a perfectly useable stone (in a lovely shade of pink) that's just sitting in the bottom of a box in my shop. It maybe narrower and slower cutting then you want, and it doesn't have the wooden box (replacement didn't include a new box) but if you you're interested PM me your address and I'll send it to you. Won't save you a ton a money since it's the least expensive of the stones, but it's something. Anyway, if it's not what you need that's cool, but if you think you can use it, it's yours.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, scuff as in scuff with a diamond hone.

I can get a soft or hard arkansas to cut the hardest japanese chisel I have pretty easily with a freshly scuffed surface.

I like the feel of the hard and soft better than the india, and a hard ark left unscuffed can become a pretty fine stone.

In practical terms, though, I still go back to ceramic stones most of the time because they cut everything no matter what, and you don't get stuck choosing between fast or fine.

But I still like the oilstones, they are a nice pleasant stone to sharpen with when you understand working with them - much like any natural stone of any quality.

I'm not sure what norton's HTA is, looking at it (I ave one of their slips and the 8x3 bench stone), I get the sense that it might be "assembled", for lack of a better word. But I don't know. I've never seen a big natural HTA stone to know. It's a nice stone for the price, regardless of whether it's sliced off a rock that way, or smashed together in some industrial process - a bit more uniform than a surgical black stone in my experience, though an experienced sharpener might be able to get more out of a black stone in terms of fineness and they can definitely be found cheaply.

The huge 12x3 surgical black halls stone that I had was also not that flat new. It was a very nice stone, but the surface of it was like an uneven dome. A surgical black stone scuffed is a fast but not very fine stone. If it's left to settle in and kept clean, it can become very fine, but it will cut very slowly.

[Kevin Adams]

Bob,

I have stones from Hall's, too, and they have been excellent.

If I were going to get new ones today, I would seriously consider the Norton kit of coarse/fine India combo and their translucent. While the wide stones are attractive, I like thicker stones so I would go with the 8x2 stones (the translucent is 3/4" thick though). This is really all you need with a nice strop. I think TFWW has all of this and is a great place to shop.


One more thing, I believe Larry Williams just wrote an article (maybe for the upcoming new PWW) where he visits some quarries and talks about what to look for in oil stones. If you can wait a bit, I'm sure there will be some good info in there.


Kevin

[Johnny Kleso]

I get mine from Dan's Whetstones
http://www.danswhetstone.com/

You can find some great deals on Seconds at http://www.sierratradingpost.com/ but sign up for their email list and wait for a good coupon like 80% (retail) or 25% sale price

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/hunting-knives~d~118/

[Bob Stroupe]

Thank you for all of the advice and links. They have been very helpful.

[Bob Stroupe]

I think I've got a fighting chance at kicking this sandpaper habit.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6236/6265283549_f763ca1c7e_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/b0b_e/6265283549/)

I’ve got to express my gratitude to Chris Griggs for sending over his Halls soft Arkansas. It sure got here quick, and I’m going to be putting it to good use.
Thank You.

The Dan's translucent stone is a 2nd from sierratradingpost. Through one of their current promotions I ended up getting $10 off. At that price for a translucent stone I just couldn't help myself.
The stone looks pretty good. It's nice and flat and has some lighter and darker coloration in it. However on camera it just looks like kind of a dull white. The only imperfection I can find is at one corner. To the naked eye it looks like a crack, but I can't feel a crack it's just as smooth as the rest of the stone. I think it may be a discoloration, or impurity? It doesn't show up on camera too well. It took me a couple of tries to figure out how to get a good picture of it.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6223/6265715446_1dd92d655e_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/b0b_e/6265715446/)
From one side
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6032/6265185115_d18c952744_m.jpg
Then I flipped the stone over and shined the light through the other side. The stone is pretty much the same on both sides the light just doesn't make it through the impurity as well.
From what I've read about how slowly these stones wear, I figure I'll probably never have to worry about it.

[Chris Griggs]

Glad you're setup is coming together. That translucent looks mighty nice - and no you'll never come close to wearing down to that discoloration - not is several lifetimes.

[Russell Cook]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but do Dan's whetstones arrive flatter than Hall's ones, does anyone know? Dan's are a bit pricier, but I may be willing to pay the higher price to avoid having to lap novaculite...

[David Weaver]

Yes, they're lapped flat and without any mill marks. They're the best of the new stones that I've seen, but Dan's does like to get paid for their stones. Both their black stones and translucents are the best I've seen of either type in newly mined stones.

Their softer stones are to be avoided, though, at least of what I've seen. Use a fine india or a vintage washita instead.

[Russell Cook]

Cheers David.

Any idea about their Hard Select? It's a lot cheaper than the other hard stones they offer. I was thinking of perhaps using that after my Fine India.

[Tony Zaffuto]

First, if you learn to sharpen freehand (like Maurice Fraser), you can do with a smaller, new stone. If you use a jig, then you need larger.

For a "new to vintage comparison" last year, I bought a combo soft ark./hard, black ark. from "Dan's Whetstones). It was 2" X 6" X 1" and cost, maybe $50.00. It is as good as anything new out there, except a transluscent ark. I would add a medium India stone ($15 for TFWW).

I accumulate stones and have maybe 3 dozen natural stones (dirt cheap at flea markets, but don't confuse man-made with natural).

Dave: what soft stones from Dan's did you have issue with? The soft on this one is "almost" as good as a lesser grade washita. I can't think of the name (maybe Smith's?) of another soft ark. I got. It is crap. when buying a natural stone, I would stay with Hall's, Dan's and even Norton and stay away from most of the others. My vintage washita, vintage transluscent (or black) and a lick or two on a leather strop & I'm as good to go (mainly O1, A2 and one new PMV-111 1/2" Lee Valley chisel that sharpened easily on my oilstones).

[David Weaver]

I'm sure that you could use it as a substitute for a translucent or hard black stone, but it probably won't be quite as fine. If you never lap the surface of your finish stone, it may not make much difference in use, but I've never used their stones at that level , just the black, translucent, and what they label as soft (which was awfully fine and slow cutting for a soft stone, even with lapping).

Personally, I'd spend the money and buy a finish stone, though. Do you intend to use a guide? If yes, the norton translucent is a cheaper option (there should be several places selling those for $80). If you change your mind on a finish stone, it'll be easier to sell, too.

If you don't use a guide, the 8x2x1/2 dans is probably the most inexpensive stone. i can't remember the place that has it cheapest.

[David Weaver]

First, if you learn to sharpen freehand (like Maurice Fraser), you can do with a smaller, new stone. If you use a jig, then you need larger.

For a "new to vintage comparison" last year, I bought a combo soft ark./hard, black ark. from "Dan's Whetstones). It was 2" X 6" X 1" and cost, maybe $50.00. It is as good as anything new out there, except a transluscent ark. I would add a medium India stone ($15 for TFWW).

I accumulate stones and have maybe 3 dozen natural stones (dirt cheap at flea markets, but don't confuse man-made with natural).

Dave: what soft stones from Dan's did you have issue with? The soft on this one is "almost" as good as a lesser grade washita. I can't think of the name (maybe Smith's?) of another soft ark. I got. It is crap. when buying a natural stone, I would stay with Hall's, Dan's and even Norton and stay away from most of the others. My vintage washita, vintage transluscent (or black) and a lick or two on a leather strop & I'm as good to go (mainly O1, A2 and one new PMV-111 1/2" Lee Valley chisel that sharpened easily on my oilstones).

My dans was a soft ark graded stone with some mottling. It was just too fine and slow. For a soft stone, for cheap, I'd get one of the much larger stones from naturalwhetstone.com and keep the surface agitated. Much faster, much bigger, and as cheap or cheaper. NW's finish stones are expensive, though, so I don't think there's really any one-stop solution for everything that's definitively best. My dan's soft is far away from any of the washitas I've used, so there might be some inconsistency in their soft arks.

[Tony Zaffuto]

My dans was a soft ark graded stone with some mottling. It was just too fine and slow. For a soft stone, for cheap, I'd get one of the much larger stones from naturalwhetstone.com and keep the surface agitated. Much faster, much bigger, and as cheap or cheaper. NW's finish stones are expensive, though, so I don't think there's really any one-stop solution for everything that's definitively best. My dan's soft is far away from any of the washitas I've used, so there might be some inconsistency in their soft arks.

I'll have to check the name of the "bad" soft I mentioned. It had a mottled appearance, was very slow, but I wouldn't characterize it as too fine.

To others (not Dave) as with anything, familiarity brings quickest & best results: learn how the stones feel for the edge you get! Norton's medium india was brought to market as a replacement for a washita. Not quite as good, but a real bargain for a 3" X 8" X 1/2" stone that hardly wears!

[Russell Cook]

Cheers for the help.

I sharpen freehand at a skewed angle, and my India is just 2 inches wide, so a 2 inch wide one would be fine.

I'm tempted by the Hard Select partly because the 1 inch thick one is around 55 dollars, and I like the thicker look and feel.

Anyhow, thanks for the input, I'll have a think, maybe toss a coin, and after much agonizing probably buy one in the end :)

[Chris Griggs]

Both the Halls and Dan's soft are pretty disappointing if you want a stone that cuts. My Halls soft is a suprisingly fine stone. It makes a real nice bridge between something like a medium india and my black, but is pretty frustrating if you want to raise a burr...it can do it when its slurried up but even than its pretty weak. Washita's are where its at for all around first step in rehoning, but I like the med and fine indias to as an initial step too. Actually, with all this raving about the eze-laps lately, if I were going to ditch waterstones, I would likely do the fine 600 grit eze lap, to either my washita or gutless Halls soft then to my black. I do like using my oil stones, but even india's get frustrating if you don't make the effort to keep the surface dressed.

If I were going to buy again, I would definitely spend the extra money on the Dans. The halls black I have is a very nice stone, but it took a long time to figure out how to get it flat enough (got best results from 100 grit Sic on a cinder block). Even with that there are still some low areas at the corners that I avoid honing on.

[Tony Zaffuto]

The soft ark. I was referring to as "soft & mottled, not cutting" was a Lansky. On Amazon, I noticed a Halls, for about $15, for a 2" X 6", and it looked very mottled and quite different in appearance than the Halls soft I have. This would lead me to "think" there may be some variability in what they sell as a "soft".. This matters little to me, or to anyone else, that has & uses a "lily white washita", as both the medium india and soft arkansas are substitutes for the washita.

Maybe we could appeal to Rob Lee to contact Norton or Hall's or Dan's for a limited run of washita's? I remember speaking a year or so ago to someone at Dan's, asking about if they had any new washita's and they said they would supply them, if a order was given for multiple stones. Having never used a Dan's washita, I cannot comment on how it compares to a vintage "lily white". I picked up a washita some years ago, at a flea market, sold by Garret Wade, I think, it was no different than the junk Lansky I commented above.

[Chris Griggs]

You can get the Dan's washita's in 6x2 here for only $15. http://www.kmesharp.com/dans-washita-stones-coarse-grit.html

I was going to get one to try at one point but bought an excellent Pike No 1 Washita from Dave W instead so I never bothered. I wonder how they would compare. The good old Washita's some of the nicest stones out there period IMHO (for all sorts of things, not just tools).

[David Weaver]

I'd fear that on all of the new washitas. The old ones all have that porous coral look that the pike mine stones have, maybe they all came from the pike mine. IF the new ones are just badged low density stones and not of that lineage, they probably go from coarse to clogged and don't have the consistent bite of the true ones.

naturalwhetstone's soft and hard are the best compromise I've seen because they are more porous, but they're still not the same as a vintage pike mine stone.

I read on a razor of knife board that norton sent some or all of their stone processing stuff to mexico, and to my knowledge, they have the old pike mine and they have too many other lines of business to care about digging out and cutting stone for us. It's a lot like the coticules, not rare stuff but the people who own the mines don't care enough to come up with much. There's only one coticule mine going, and the coticules are just a byproduct of digging up architectural stone.

[Mel Fulks]

David,could explain a little more the difference between "porous coral" and "low density". Those stones have so many color and pattern variations,always interesting in differentiating. Thanks

[David Weaver]

Pike mine washitas have a specific look on the backs. They have a very uniform texture, spongy looking, that I haven't seen on any other soft stone, looks like dense coral. I never weighed any of mine because I don't know how much oil is in them and it might be pointless to find out their density, but I'm assuming that the cheap non-pike softs that have low density might be in the same ballpark as the pike washitas, but they are either slow (like the dan's that I have) or they are fast like a washita, but coarse (the naturalwhetstone soft and hard arks are fast with loose stuff on the surface, but they don't leave a hair popping edge like a pike washita does.).

Hair popping is a little bit misleading, in that the pike washitas seem to be able to shave hair cleanly without issue after a few swipes on a clean leather strop, but they still aren't as sharp as a finish stone.

I was stupid and sold chris my #1 norton, and now I have four more washitas trying to find that jones again. All of the old washitas seem to be good, but the pike #1 and lilywhite seem to be just a bit better than the other brands (and nonbranded) that I have, with the exception of a nonbranded very vintage washita my dad has. In an attempt to show him what it was so I could mooch it off of him, he learned how well it worked on knives and then pulled out of donating it to my disease. At any rate, all of the vintage washitas are better than any of the soft modern stones I've seen if it matters how consistent they are and how sharp they make a tool. They continue to cut without having to agitate the surface, and that's not true for my more recently mined soft stones. they all settle in and need a wake up scratch.

[Chris Griggs]

I was stupid and sold chris my #1 norton, and now I have four more washitas trying to find that jones again.

Yeah. That was stupid, and I even told you as much at the time. I kept saying "Dave, are you sure you want to sell this to me?".

Its fantastic stone. Let me put it this way. I use synthetic waterstones for most things and generally prefer them for tools significantly over my oil stones. BUT if I found myself in the midst of the having to survive a zombie-pocalypse and could only take a few things with me the Washita would be one of them. I mean killing zombies dulls ones tools in a hurry and if you really want something robust that will last a long time, that is both good for establishing a fresh edge on your zombie-weapons and also gets them really very sharp, there is just nothing I know of as good a good Washita. Its just the perfect all purpose stone.

[Tony Zaffuto]

The Dan washita looks very similar to the junk Garret Wade I have.

I have a number of washita's in my accumulation, including a Pike washita that has original box, original label on stone and is for pratical purposes, unused. I'm going from memory because I'm at my office and not home in my shop, it is a 2" X 5" or some similar sized stone.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, the length of the washitas is all over the place.

I have a ww delight, a mechanics friend, a vintage washita that someone was using to sharpen razors and in a nifty box with a strop on top (they let the stone load until it almost didn't cut, and I remediated that in a hurry), and this week I got a lilywhite in the mail because I couldn't find another no 1.

The WW delight and carpenter delight are right on nominal length, but the lilywhite is 7 inches, the razor stone is something like 8 1/2 (and it's fine for a washita, but definitely the pike type with the bitey feel and porous pure white backside), and my dad's old washita is somewhere between 8 1/2 and 9 inches. For 30 years, he's been sharpening his hunting knives with a silicon carbide combination stone (and they were dull) because, in his words "that other stone is junk and it cuts too slow". Cleaning it off changed that and now all of his knives shave hair.

[Chris Hachet]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but do Dan's whetstones arrive flatter than Hall's ones, does anyone know? Dan's are a bit pricier, but I may be willing to pay the higher price to avoid having to lap novaculite...
Don't be sorry, I am learning something here!

[Lloyd Robins]

I am a bit late on this, but I would suggest giving Dan's a call. They are very helpful and knowledgeable. If they have seconds (a lot cheaper) that will work for your purposes, they will help you find them. Their customer service is great and their stones are beautiful and work well.

[David Weaver]

In the fine stones, their seconds are better stones for use than any other companies' firsts that I've gotten.

[Russell Cook]

OK, I've sent a message to Dan's to ask for their recommendation. On the basis of the comments here, I'm leaning towards a black now. My hope is for the stone to become an heirloom some day, so I may go for a 1 inch thick one, so that my descendants have the freedom to give it a scuff or two over the centuries :)

[Joe Bailey]

Psssssssssssst!
http://naturalwhetstone.com/

[jamie shard]

For what it's worth, the Black Arkansas and Soft Arkansas in this oil stone box came from natural whetstone: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?198397-Small-Precision-Neander-Work-(help!) I can recommend the black as a good value that is perfect before the ceramic spyderco. The soft Arkansas is kinda variable across the stone, it's pretty good but I'm still making up my mind about it. An india might be better. hth!

[Russell Cook]

Cheers for the link to naturalwhestone.com Joe. Have you purchased from them before?

They have a 8 x 3 x 1 Hard Arkansas for $40 at the moment, down from $60. I'm just worried that that price is TOO good to be a good stone...

David, you said you had a Hard Arkansas from naturalwhestone.com, right? Would you recommend it?

[Joe Bailey]

Cheers for the link to naturalwhestone.com Joe. Have you purchased from them before?


I have more than a few from them and if I remember correctly, each was a custom size. These are quarried from stone -- it's not like some other manufacturer has proprietary material. It's been a while, but I think the owner's name is Dave -- at any rate, you have nothing to worry about -- he'll stand behind his product. Talk to him before you order.

[David Weaver]

Cheers for the link to naturalwhestone.com Joe. Have you purchased from them before?

They have a 8 x 3 x 1 Hard Arkansas for $40 at the moment, down from $60. I'm just worried that that price is TOO good to be a good stone...

David, you said you had a Hard Arkansas from naturalwhestone.com, right? Would you recommend it?

Yes, I had a soft and I have a hard and a hard black translucent. The hard is different than a hard from other places, it's more coarse, and it's big and cheap. It works well if you keep the surface of it excited.

It would make a good interim step between a medium india and a translucent or hard black ark. The hard black translucent is a nice stone, but I like dan's better and vintage better yet.

[Russell Cook]

Hi,

I just had a thought, that when putting on a micro-bevel, I like to look carefully at the angle I'm doing it at, by studying the gap between the bevel and the stone.

My feeling is that a black stone will make that process more difficult, as the shadow and the stone are the same colour, making the exact angle of lift harder to see.

So, I'm thinking now a translucent would be better, and have contacted Tools For Woodworking about their Norton, which looks a bargain.

Sorry if this is just waffle, it was nice to tell somebody anyway...:)