Dust Collection

[Bob Yarbrough]

Small shop, home type projects, 1 machine at a time working, what size? Local Menards has a 1 horse Jet for $230 and a 1 1/4(1/2) horse Jet Special Edition on sale for $299. Good deal????? Will a 650 cfm move the dust? Suggestions?

[Jim Becker]

The so-called "650 CFM" units will work with one tool at a time for the most part for basic chip collection, but you are better off with a more capable machine, both for dust/chip collection and your health. Remember, cut the "spec" CFM number in half to figure out about what the machine will do in real life...

Bigger IS better when it comes to dust collection. A 1.5hp, 12 inch impeller system is the minimum I'd suggest and even then, it should be a short hose to a single machine at a time.

[Bob Yarbrough]

My shop is 24 x 16. I plan to place the collector in a corner and run an inlet pipe 12 feet along one wall, and a pipe 16 feet to a right turn then 12 feet to midwall. The TS sits at the end of the 28 foot run. The long run will have a joiner, benchtop planer, and the TS on the run. The short run will have a cutoff saw, router table, and general-purpose port for small tools being used on the bench. Should I reverse the layout? It would be easy at this point in time to put the collector in the other corner and service the TS, joiner and planer on the short run. Additional suggestions appreciated. :confused: (THIS IS A WHOLE LOT MORE FUN THEN AMENDING MY TAX RETURNS) :( :mad:

[Jim Becker]

If you are going to use duct work, you cannot use any of the small 1 hp, 10" impeller machines. The 1.5hp systems are usable, although marginal with duct work and you must keep the duct work as short as possible for best performance. 2hp or better is best when duct work is involved.

Your duct path should not follow the walls; rather, the main run should take the route that provides the most efficient paths when both a given drop and the main trunk are taken into account. Oneida has an excellent duct design document available for free download at http://www.oneida-air.com/design/ductguide.pdf that will help you understand the best ways to route pipe...see page 4 for that discussion.

[Karl Laustrup]

Bob, check out this site also. http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm)
This man has done more for dust collection and it's what opened my eyes.

The site Jim listed is one of the best for DC's and their ductwork plans are great for getting the most from a system.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Bob,

I currently use a 2hp Harbor Freight dust collector, I love it! I am going to do a WYNN Wynn Canister Conversion (http://www.wynnenv.com/35A_series_cartridge_kit.htm) to it. Right now I am getting great performance from it, In My opinion. I would get the DC the closest that you can, to the machines you use the most often. As you run longer duct work, the CFM drops off. I have 4" duct work ran with my DC and it works great for me. After the canister conversion, I have no more plans to upgrade my DC. Someday a Cyclone is in order, but that is a ways off...

Good luck, the HF DC and Canister conversion cost me Just over $200 total.

Jeff

[Bob Winkler]

If you are going to use duct work, you cannot use any of the small 1 hp, 10" impeller machines. The 1.5hp systems are usable, although marginal with duct work and you must keep the duct work as short as possible for best performance. 2hp or better is best when duct work is involved.


I'm not a dust collector expert, and I hate to disagree with you guys who have taught me so much (especially Jim Becker), but here is my real world experience:

- I have used a 1 hp Jet DC for a couple of years now (old blue color)
- I have two 4" plastic ductways branching off the DC
- The shorter ductway services my TS, jointer and misc cleanup hose over about 15 feet of length. All machines use a mix of aluminum and plastic gates.
- The longer duct services a planer and drum sander after about 10', then reduces to 3" duct and is connected to my oscillating spindle sander and disk sander after about 10 feet, then heads to my workbench for mostly connecting to a handheld random orbital sander. This branch is about 25' long.
- The jointer, planer, and all the sanders work perfectly. (90-100% effective)
- The TS works ok, about 70% effective
- I did nothing special about the duct joint except white duct tape.
- Each machine uses about a 6-10 foot section of flexible corrugated pipe for connection to duct. I admit this is not ideal, but it works anyway.
- The BIGGEST improvement in performance was when I installed oversized 1 micron bags from PSI.

I often been tempted to upgrade because the experts say I should, but have never done so because my theoretically challenged system continues to work great for me, and is nice and compact.

I don't want to start a food fight, and only want to bring another side to this story.:o

Bob

[Jim Becker]

Not a problem, Bob. I used a DC650 in my one-car garage shop before moving to this property...with 4" S&D duct work. It worked fine for chip collection. And then I discovered the joy of air flow when I moved to a larger space and system...

"No dust collection" system is not an option, IMHO, so whatever one can afford should be put in place and optimized as best as possible. For the smaller machines, it's pretty accepted that a short hose and moving from machine to machine gives the best results...and yes, upgrading the filter bags to something that can actually flow air makes a big difference. Good investment. My previous comments were just trying to impart what I've learned from many different sources as well as personal experience...bigger is better if you can do it! :p

[Bill Lewis]

Sure you can get by with much less. Any DC that gets the chips and dust out of the tool and in to a container to some degree is better than nothing, even a shop vac if that is all you have.

It all depends on your situation. I was pretty happy with a bag collector in my last (detached garage) shop. But I didn't think it would be adequate for a basement shop. I don't want to find dust migrating throughout the house.

It all come down to budget and needs, and follows the same advise as all other tools, buy the best you can at first, and you won't be crying later. If you buy decent enough to begin with, you'll have some decent resale if you wish to upgrade to the ultimate at a later time.

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Bob,

I used to have an even smaller system than your current one and it grabbed a bunch of dust too. At that time I may even have put some percentage figure about how efficient it was. But now I see things a little differently so when I see a statement like yours:

"- The jointer, planer, and all the sanders work perfectly. (90-100% effective)"

It makes me shake my head because you can't really say that. You can't see particles smaller than about 40 microns with the naked eye so how can a person make a statement like that? Those tiny particles are the ones that cause the most damage to your lungs, so that's my beef with a statement like that.

But we all have to do what we think is right for our own needs. I wish you well.

Cheers,

Allan

[Bob Winkler]

I guess I was afraid of this back and forth, and I won't try to add fuel to this fire, but I do want to explain myself. My main reason for posting was simply to disagree with the statement that you can't use ductwork on 1 hp machines.

As far as the effectivity number, that is based on the fact that no chips remain for jointing and planing, and no dust remains on the boards after going through my drum sander. I haven't analysed the air quality, but I don't feel that I'm being irresponsible with my health. I use 1 micron bags and let the DC run for several minutes after any operation. After all, I have a lot to live for.

Sure, it's easy to recommend "cyclones for everyone". But it's not practical or possible for some of us. But other strategies can be effective and can be considered.

Bob

[Jim Becker]

My mistake, Bob, for using the word, "cannot" in that respect. You can and it will work. But when we give advise to folks, it's important to differentiate between "work", "work well" and "work best". That's where we sometimes get hung up by only talking about one of those things, rather than the big picture. Thanks for pointing out the other side of the coin. I know my original wording was inadequate and appologise for the same.

[Joe Mioux]

...

"No dust collection" system is not an option, IMHO, so whatever one can afford should be put in place and optimized as best as possible. For the smaller machines, it's pretty accepted that a short hose and moving from machine to machine gives the best results...and yes, upgrading the filter bags to something that can actually flow air makes a big difference. Good investment.
I'm still trying to figure out how to hook up my shop vac hose to my #4 and #5 hand planes;)

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Bob,

No worries....I don't see a fire anywhere. :)

When I had my ultra-tiny 3/4HP DC unit hanging on a wall, I actually hooked up a small 4" duct network with blast gates. I also made a preseparator out of a 5-gallon drywall mud bucket. It worked quite well to separate the really heavy stuff but smaller bits went straight through into the bag.

I agree with you about the cyclone thing. Cyclones aren't perfect either. In fact, a $30 cartridge respirator with HEPA filters will protect your lungs better than any cyclone ever will.

The way I see it, a person should buy the best DC they can afford and wear a cartridge respirator for the ultimate in respiratory health. The bigger DC will only help reduce shop cleanup and reduce airborne dust particles (visible and invisible) that will linger in the shop. Hopefully they don't get out into the rest of the house though. That may be a concern to some folks. Of course there are a lot of other ways to deal with this than by using a cyclone.

Cheers,

Allan

[Bob Yarbrough]

Does anyone have any experience with the Penn Industries cyclones? (looking for most bang for the buck). Their price seemed much lower then Woodsucker ll, Onedia, etc.

Or a system with a non-cyclone collector with a 1 micron filter and an air exchanger?

?????????????????? :confused:

[Chris Padilla]

One problem I see constantly through out DC threads is talk about the HP (power) of the motor. Perhaps it is an indication of the DC ability but not necessarily. At least in a cyclone, the most important number you should look at is the size of the impeller. Everything else being equal, bigger is better here.

[Jimmy Tallent]

Anybody have a tempest cyclone???

[John Bush]

Is it possible to have too much vacuum pressure? I plan on expanding my shop in the future and would like to avoid the hassle of a system upgrade. If a 3hp unit specs out now, would a 5hp be too much pre-expansion? Seems to me it would be OK if not a good problem to have, just wondering what you all think. Thanks, John.

[Jim Becker]

Anybody have a tempest cyclone???
It was mentioned in this thread last week: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=17242

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Is it possible to have too much vacuum pressure? I plan on expanding my shop in the future and would like to avoid the hassle of a system upgrade. If a 3hp unit specs out now, would a 5hp be too much pre-expansion? Seems to me it would be OK if not a good problem to have, just wondering what you all think. Thanks, John.


John,

Your question would probably be best asked of the cyclone manufacturer. I am sure that onieda would be willing to help you out!

I would think that the only concern would be not restricting the air flow to the 5hp so much that it makes the motor work hard. If you had to, you could always build a downdraft sanding table and leave that blast gate open all the time! It would work kind of like an ambient air cleaner. That would only work if the 5hp pulled enough CFM to run two blast gates effiecently.

[Jim Becker]

I would think that the only concern would be not restricting the air flow to the 5hp so much that it makes the motor work hard.
It works just the opposite, Jeff, relative to the motor "work". The more restricted the duct, the less the motor works because it's not moving any air via the impeller. Whe you have things wide open, the impeller is moving more air and putting more load on the motor in the process. Sounds strange, but it's true!

That said, opening another gate as you suggest is a good idea, both for feeding the blower and to cut down the noise at the small port.

[John Bush]

I just saw this tested yesterday using a shopvac and an inline amp meter. With the vac on and an unrestricted hose it was drawing ~8 amps and closing the hose off with your hand the draw dropped to ~4amps. I would have guessed the opposite, mostly due to the increase in noise of the motor. Stands to reason that lower load means less resistance on the impeller and increased rpm of the universal motor. Physics can be fun. Good luck, John.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

It works just the opposite, Jeff, relative to the motor "work". The more restricted the duct, the less the motor works because it's not moving any air via the impeller. Whe you have things wide open, the impeller is moving more air and putting more load on the motor in the process. Sounds strange, but it's true!

That said, opening another gate as you suggest is a good idea, both for feeding the blower and to cut down the noise at the small port.

Well look at that! You learn something new everyday. So the short answer is no, having a 5hp cyclone is not going to hurt, other than the pocket book.

Actually it will help, if you were able to build a big down draft table and use it kinda like an air cleaner. If you had a 5HP cyclone, I would think there would be pleant of CFM to spare for it! :)