Narex Chisels

[Charlie MacGregor]

I started prepping my Narex bevel edge chisels, hoping to get away with a light flattening. What I've found instead are rather discouraging, large hollows. About 6 hours and copious swarf later I'm 0 for 3 on an 8 piece set and pretty discouraged. I put the 2" on a belt sander in a moment of irrationality and muffed it. It will only be good for riving and sharpening pencils from here on out! I thought about a plate and diamonds but the idea of investing anything more in this experiment irks me. So... has anyone had any luck and found a semi flat one of these tools, because right now I'm not inclined to even try another of the set. If I don't hear encouraging news the whole set goes to my brother in law and it will serve him right! Maybe I'm expecting too much from an eight dollar chisel :mad:

[Russell Sansom]

Aside from the metallurgy, the most important difference between Narex-like chisels and, say, Lie-Nielsen chisels is that you don't have to flatten the backs on the LN's. Even if my time is worth only $20 an hour the Lie-Nielsen's turn out to be cheaper or almost. Sometimes folks on the forum declare that they can flatten a chisel in 5 or 10 minutes, but I haven't figured out how they do it.

I just sold a set of Crowns on Ebay because I was 3 chisels into the 11-piece set when I realized I would be too old to use them by the time they were usable. For me, life is too short to spend endless painful hours flattening chisels. Wish I'd thought of the brother-in-law idea!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

How was the hollow going? I must have lucked out on mine - it had a hollow, but I was able to pretty quickly get the full edge along the tips and sides level, and left it at that - a bit of hollow behind the cutting edge shouldn't be a problem if you have a good bearing edge. (akin to a Japanese chisel, I suppose.)

I had one where I had a decent hollow, but the back was flattening out before tip - the cutting edge wasn't getting lapped. I just took it to the grinder and removed maybe a 1/16th from the tip and then went back to lapping, no problem.

A couple of vintage chisels I've gotten have had a "hump" in them - the back is convex, rather than having a hollow - which makes lapping near impossible - on those, I took a small grinding wheel in a drill and purpose made a slight hollow - a few minutes of grind, lap, grind, lap to keep from removing too much, and the thing levelled out quickly. (All I really needed to do was grind enough hollow to get a good bearing surface that wouldn't rock for lapping, but I went for a bit of a hollow to speed the process along - as I've lapped the back over repeated use, this has mostly disappeared, it wasn't large.)

[Tony Zaffuto]

Hmmmm.....We generally pay extra to get that hollow on Japanese chisels!

I got a 1-1/2" Narex bench chisel and a 2" on backorder from LV, last week. The 1-1/2" flattened as easily as most other chisels I have (a lot--both vintage and modern, including AIs and LNs). The first thing I tried was seeing how far out the back was--not too bad, but it did have a hollow, which doesn't bother me, as long as I get the area immediately behind the edge flat. For flattening, instead of my normal oilstones, I used my waterstones, working through 220, 1000, 4000 and 8000 grits, and taking about 15 minutes total. I do have a bit of a hollow, but there is about 3/8" behind the edge that is flat. With future sharpenings, as with Japanese chisels, the hollow will disappear, with typical sharpenings.

Don't overthink sharpening! I don't believe there are shortcuts, such as a powered sander, for flattening. Take your time and let the stones do their work (you don't need 10 tons force pressing down on the stone).

What I don't like about the Narex, are the fugly handles! Tonight, I think I'll make up some London pattern handles, using a LV handle I purchased as a model.

[Simon Frez-Albrecht]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ue4LCtaEgws/Tj8lffgdTUI/AAAAAAAAAV8/BcpjadAVkXk/s1600/IMG_1423.JPG

I took that image after a few flattening strokes on my set. The 3/4 had an edge that was raised up just beyond the ground area behind the edge. So I could have ground it off, as Joshua Pierce did, but instead I just gave it a slight bevel like when using the ruler trick. The two smaller chisels only got a few more strokes, and then I called it done. I spent the most time (15 minutes maybe?) on the 1" to get all the way to the edge.

Like Tony Zaffuto, I don't mind the hollow. I have considered adding a hollow to some chisels to make sharpening a bit quicker. Maybe I'm less exacting in my work than some of you gents, but in the end I think that more is made of flat backs than is really necessary. As long as the edge is one plane all the way across, I'm happy.

The chisels I use at work (general carpentry) get flattened and aggressively back-beveled on an 80 grit belt on my 1x30 belt sander, finished with a couple of strokes on a 600 grit diamond and sometimes a few strokes on a strop. This gives me a razor sharp edge that cuts more than well enough in situations that are often full of hidden nails.

[Scott Flamm]

The amount of time it takes to flatten the back of a chisel depends on the condition of the chisel and how picky you are. If you decide that you want to flatten the entire back of the chisel then yes it can take quite a while to get things perfectly flat. If on the other hand you only flatten the first 2-3 inches it will take much less time because there is less steel to remove and any hollows that may exist could be out of that area. And if you are happy with just having the first inch of the back flat then it may only take 10-15 minutes to flatten it. The more of the back that you flatten the longer you can go with out having to do it again though. It is just personal preference, but depending on how you work it could take many years to go through that first inch of steel!

[Tom McMahon]

I know this is blasphemy but what operation does any one preform that require the back of a chisel to be perfectly flat. In many cases it is actually a disadvantage. I know that many believe that a flat back becomes a reference surface, but it actually causes the chisel to dive towards the back and increases the chance of chip out. I some cases a back bevel on a chisel is actually an advantage and a hollow makes sharpening quicker [Japanese chisels].

[Rob Fisher]

I know this is blasphemy but what operation does any one preform that require the back of a chisel to be perfectly flat. In many cases it is actually a disadvantage. I know that many believe that a flat back becomes a reference surface, but it actually causes the chisel to dive towards the back and increases the chance of chip out. I some cases a back bevel on a chisel is actually an advantage and a hollow makes sharpening quicker [Japanese chisels].I can only think of one instance when I would want a double beveled chisel, and that is carving. Almost any other instance I would prefer a flat back. Paring a tenon or a mortise, any instance in which I am trying to create a flat surface I want a flat back. Maybe that's just me.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I can only think of one instance when I would want a double beveled chisel, and that is carving. Almost any other instance I would prefer a flat back. Paring a tenon or a mortise, any instance in which I am trying to create a flat surface I want a flat back. Maybe that's just me.

I would agree with this statement. However, if more extreme measures than what I mentioned are required, then there is a problem with the chisel or the flattening methods used. I would suggest the OP may want to pick up either Leanord Lee's or Ron Hock's book on sharpening. I would also suggest the OP (and anyone else having flattening issues) to make sure you don't skip steps in grit progression, i.e. for waterstones, 220, 1000, 4000 & 8000 grit, for oilstones, soft arkansas, medium india, translucent arkansas, for Scary Sharp, 220, 400, 600, 1000, 1500 & 2000 grit paper. Stay away from belt sanders or even mechanized grinders such as Worksharp until you know the basics.

[Tom McMahon]

I can only think of one instance when I would want a double beveled chisel, and that is carving. Almost any other instance I would prefer a flat back. Paring a tenon or a mortise, any instance in which I am trying to create a flat surface I want a flat back. Maybe that's just me.
Is not the way a chisel works exactly the same whether you are carving or paring a tenon. If you read Chris Pye or David Charlesworth on back bevels it seems to me the advantages apply to any edge tool. Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating the ruler trick for bench chisels, I'm just saying I see no reason to go crazy trying to flatten more than the area just behind the cutting edge.

[Rob Fisher]

Is not the way a chisel works exactly the same whether you are carving or paring a tenon. If you read Chris Pye or David Charlesworth on back bevels it seems to me the advantages apply to any edge tool. Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating the ruler trick for bench chisels, I'm just saying I see no reason to go crazy trying to flatten more than the area just behind the cutting edge.I have not read either of the guys you mentioned. And I have relatively little experience compared to them or most others, probably. But in my experience carving is typically making a curved surface and similar to using a bench chisel bevel down. When using a chisel bevel down I rock the chisel on the bevel to control the depth of cut. When using a chisel with the back as a reference I am typically trying to knock down the high spots. Yes it can be a little difficult to preven the chisel from digging in but, with a light cut and a sharp chisel I typically get where I want to be without gouging. If I am paring a tenon that is 3" long I want at least 3" of flat chisel back. Concave is ok, convex is not. If I am paring a rabbet where the entire chisel back is used as a flat reference, I want the entire back flat. Flat means all of the high spots are coplanar and coplanar with the chisel edge. Also the back should be polished at the edge so that it can be sharpened without ending up with a ragged edge. Polished does not equal flat.

[phil harold]

I only flatten the back as far as the jig extends approximatively 1.25 inches
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I dont even make sure that hole area is perfectly flat just as long as it is completely flat/polished by the edge

If you try to flatten the whole backside how do you ensure that you take of even amounts?

[george wilson]

I never have flattened the backs of my 1964(ish) Marples chisels,and they were used in making all the things I have posted here. They always have been a little bit hollow.

[Chris Griggs]

I sort fall in the middle of the road in terms of importance of back flatness. For me flat backs comes down to consistency in sharpening more than anything else. I tend to flatten the width of two fingers up the blade, because well, I like to use two fingers to hold the blade back down to the stone when I wipe off a burr. If the back is really bad than I might flatten less of the back and just hold the blade down to the stone with one finger. If I can consistently get a polish at the edge and consistently remove the burr when holding the blade down with two fingers then the back is flat enough.

I do think their is something to be said for some amount of a flat reference surface behind the cutting edge and I personally would never introduce a back bevel into my chisels - in fact I've ground 1/16" or off of chisels in the past to get rid of back bevels that I couldn't lap out. However, IMHO the concept that the back must be flat in order for the chisel to be "steered" correctly tends to be overemphasized, as the back certainly doesn't completely guide a chisel for you - one needs to learn to do that for themselves. If one doesn't control their chisel whether they are paring or chopping, it will gouge or bruise the work no matter how flat the back is.

Anyway, to the OP, I'll echo what others have said - if you're trying to flatten the entire back I'd say don't bother - just flatten the first X" leading up to the cutting edge - a hollow is no problem.

[Charlie MacGregor]

It's the low spots along the edges I want out. The problem is that this will require a lot removal. Probably more that I'm willing to do! This is the 1/2" chisel and I've finally gotten the first 1/4 or 3/8" flat.
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[Charlie MacGregor]

Mabe I just need to adjust my expectations. The chisel does not rock side to side that I can feel. I'm going to leave the back there and put an edge on it and see how it goes. On the bright side, if/when I bobble a chisel cut, I'll just blame the tool. Thanks for the replies.

[Tony Zaffuto]

It's the low spots along the edges I want out. The problem is that this will require a lot removal. Probably more that I'm willing to do! This is the 1/2" chisel and I've finally gotten the first 1/4 or 3/8" flat.
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Are you sure your flattening medium (stone or whatever) isn't flat?

[David Weaver]

It looks pretty good to me, at least from what I can see of that picture. In terms of low spots further up the edge, worry about those when you get to them. Chances are, if you are a decent sharpener, it will be forever and a day before you ever get to them.

Chisels and all of the chisel talk get tons and tons of play online, but heavy battering use that you'd give to a bench chisel in the process of actually building things of the fine woodworking variety is not that common, and sharpening from regular use and wear and tear from impact does not cost much in terms of chisel length.

It is a problem when the very edge of the back is rounded over, dubbed or just poor in terms of a roug grind, but if it's relatively decent, you should have no issue in day to day use.

Remember when you're flattening these things, your chisel needs to be flat enough to do the work you do. It doesn't need to be as flat as someone made an entire back in a video if you don't work like they do using long reference blocks, etc. Only the first little bit of the back will affect how the chisel handles in a cut.

[Tony Zaffuto]

It looks pretty good to me, at least from what I can see of that picture. In terms of low spots further up the edge, worry about those when you get to them. Chances are, if you are a decent sharpener, it will be forever and a day before you ever get to them.

Chisels and all of the chisel talk get tons and tons of play online, but heavy battering use that you'd give to a bench chisel in the process of actually building things of the fine woodworking variety is not that common, and sharpening from regular use and wear and tear from impact does not cost much in terms of chisel length.

It is a problem when the very edge of the back is rounded over, dubbed or just poor in terms of a roug grind, but if it's relatively decent, you should have no issue in day to day use.

Remember when you're flattening these things, your chisel needs to be flat enough to do the work you do. It doesn't need to be as flat as someone made an entire back in a video if you don't work like they do using long reference blocks, etc. Only the first little bit of the back will affect how the chisel handles in a cut.

Dave,

Have you made the complete journey to handtools or do you still employ electrons when you can to your advantage (for example rips)? I'm asking this out of curiosity as one who has been on different forums with you over the years and I have an interest in how woodworkers perceive how they see themselves evolving. It is interesting for us to see George Wilson's approach, as his entire career has been engaged as a professional, in contrast to those who are advanced hobbyists.

I basically agree with what you have said about flattening the backs of chisels (as with George has also said). My responses were to address the OP, as I purchased a few Narex chisels because I was curious to see how good a chisel this cheap could be. Too much is said about flattening the backs of chisels (actually the front), when there are extreme few circumstances when a flat back is actually needed. Having been involved in woodworking for better than 35 to 38 years (can't remember back that far), with only the first decade as a professional carpenter, I never was introduced to the flat earth society until I started visiting woodworking forums.

For what its worth, is the hobby flattening backs or working wood? Got to go, as I got to get up very early for a trip to your fine city tomorrow AM. How tore up is Rt. 28 to the 40th street bridge?

T.Z.

[Charlie MacGregor]

I would think that having as much of the iron laying flat on the stone as possible would aid in keeping it flat on ther stone. An uninteded consequence is that most of the back gets worked too. I assure you this is not the intent. "a hobby of flattening backs" ?????

1"
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