Being slowly tortured making 3-3/4" legs for a table

[Alan Lightstone]

Starting a project making a sapele drafting table for my wife. We've come up with a design that has 3-3/4" square legs, with chamfers on the corners, and molding around the base.
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My local supplier can't get me any 16/4 sapele, so I thought I'd build them like Stickly legs out of QS sapele, instead of having 2-3 seams in them.

So far I've tried a Sommerfeld lock miter bit on some test pine. Too finicky to set up, and not a solid joint. Lots of blow out.

Next I tried a Festool Domino and TS miter joints. Actually looks fine, but I'm concerned about strength of the joints. It will be a heavy top on the table.
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Then I tried an MLCS lock miter set with setup blocks. Still no joy. Finicky joints, some gaps, and some chip-out/blow out. Not a confidence builder. Also, still hard to set up. The vertical routing piece is the issue. The horizontal ones come out just fine.
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Lastly, I've tried an Infinity Lapped Miter Bit Set. This involves both sides of the joint being done horizontally on the router table. This I was able to dial in, but it also doesn't have the stability of a lock miter joint (probably better than a plain miter - more gluing surface.) Still finicky, but I've kinda figured it out.
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Unfortunately, for any of the lock-miter or lapped miter joints, I will have to rabbet a 1/4" rabbet in the corners, and glue in a piece of matching sapele. Then, make the stopped chamfers. Not an insurmountable task, but an awful lot of work for each leg.

Whew. Deep breath. Explanation over.

All of this is an incredible amount of work instead of just taking solid 16/4 wood, making it straight, and routing in 4 stopped chamfers per leg.

Anyone have any success with lock-miter joints? Words of wisdom? I've perused multiple web sites, but I'd love to see them do it at my place. My success hasn't paralleled theirs.

Should I just give up and glue together smaller boards and finish the glued-up piece?

Should I run with the lapped miter joints, and finish them.

Or is all of this total silliness, and should I just cut four mitered corners and use the domino to secure them.

Or does someone know a good source of 16/4 sapele? I would lose the nice look of hand picked pieces of QS sapele for the legs, but it sure would be easier to accomplish.

I'd love any comments / thoughts / suggestions.

[Jeff Monson]

Alan, can you get ahold of any 8/4 sapele? I've done a few "bookmatched" table legs and they look great. The glue line is not very obvious when they are built this way, results in a solid stock leg which is nice.

[Aaron Berk]

I wouldn't think the Domino joint would fail.

I'm still a supporter of the Biscuit and don't yet own a domino.
In my experience biscuited miters haven't failed me yet.

I know allot of believers of the domino.
So miter and domino away. :)

That's my .02

[Peter Quinn]

It's a long grain glue up, you only need a spline or something for allignment when clamping. No additional Joinery is really required for strength. I would try a three sided tape miter, put some blocks in the middle perhaps in dados, and glue on the last side miter clamps. Perhaps a piece of 5/4 sapele would give you enough room for splines and the leg chamfer? If you want a beautiful visual of a great way to do this google the creek for some of mark singer's old posts, he did these types of legs in a very elegant manner and had a great pictorial on how.

[John P Clark]

Glue several pieces of 4/4 together, and then veneer the ends with quatersawn sapele. When you champ her the corners, the small veneer joint will not be noticeable. I have done this with quartersawn white oak for mission style legs and it looks fine. It is very hard to get quality legs using a lock miter bit with some blow out, and with the shaper fence. I prefer the method above and make my own veneer so the grain matches on all four sides of the leg.

[Neil Brooks]

I was thinking what John was thinking: glue-up and veneer.

[Chris Fournier]

I wouldn't worry about strength with these mitres at all. If I wanted to move super quick I'd biscuit the assembly. I'd glue up with the tape method and clamp using innertube strips to apply pressure.

When I had no other options I made locking mitres on my table saw! Took some time but the outcome was spot on. Now I have the luxury of a shaper with a digital readout and it's much easier.

Regardless, the method that you're trying to use would look fantastic on these big legs, I wouldn't consider a slab glue up for even a moment. You'll get it done!

[Steve Jenkins]

I have made lots of legs with just a plain miter joint and glue. It is a long grain joint so it's plenty strong. I use packing tape stretched around the leg to clamp it. I start at one end and spiral wrap to the other end stretching the tape as I go.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Yeah, as others have said... this shouldn't take much joinery at all since it's a long grain glue-up. If it were me, I'd rip the pieces at a 45 degree angle (actually, it would be much much safer to do this on your jointer with the fence at a 45- this would take longer, but this way you wouldn't have to do any cuts with the blade tilted toward our fence on the TS), cut spline slots in your pieces and make some spline stock for alignment, and glue that sucker up.

Seems like you've got a lot of money in some specialty router bits... I'd return them if you can. It really seems unnecessary.

[Walter Plummer]

I have never tried router bits. The lock miter is finicky enough on a shaper with a stock feeder. Add me in for just miter and glue.

[Alan Lightstone]

Lot's of good advice. As always, appreciated. I tried routing a rabbet to glue some hardwood for the stopped chamfer on the piece that I had used the domino on. Whoops, the rabbet cuts through to the domino. So that method's a non starter.

The suggestion of veneer on end grain of glued up 4/4 sounds like it's got real possibilities. Would tear out be an issue with the stopped chamfers on the corners after the veneer is glued?

Also, would it be difficult to finish the veneer to match the solid wood. Both would be QS, but wouldn't absorbtion of dye/finish be different?

No doubt about sinking money into the specialty router bits. I've tried them, so no returns, but it was a valiant effort.

Keep all those ideas coming, guys. This is what's so special about Sawmill Creek. Lots and lots of collective knowledge out there.

[Ron Bontz]

Well I feel your pain. I use lock miters when I can. The stock has to be dead flat and straight. The router table and the fence of course flat. I don't use set up blocks. Just some cut offs from the stock I am going to miter. Adjust the cutter and fence then try the fit. Once that's right; cut the miters on the legs. Make them a bit longer then cut off the excess. It helps to square the ends. Try the dry fit first. Brush the glue on thinly with a small brush. Those flux brushes work well. When gluing together start clamping from the middle. Also when I cut the joints, I cut one board flat down on both edges and the next board on edge on both edges. Lastly when cutting these joints leave just a smidge flat on the edge. This keeps the mitered edge from being deformed as the last bit of wood passes the cutter and helps prevent snipe. Hope this helps.

[john bateman]

This way works well.
http://www.cjohnhebert.com/Bed.htm

[Prashun Patel]

Alan-

Another option to consider is just laminating 4/4. If you pick your stock well, especially on qs stock, I think you'll be hard pressed to notice the seam.

Purists may not like laminated legs, but it's worked for me (even in flatsawn walnut where the grain match was less than perfect).

If you go this route, before you glue up, I'd first joint the edges, clamp them together , and wipe them with an experimental coat or two of your finish. This will bring out any color or figure differences.

[Alan Lightstone]

John:
Interesting. I'm still smarting from some kickback 6 months ago, so I'm not warm and fuzzy about the table saw bit, but nice seam.

Prashun:
I've thought more and more about it. I actually have some very straight grained, 10' long sapele boards that would likely hide the seam quite well. It would take a fair bit of work/finesse to get the end grain to match the face grain, though. On the other hand, there will be issues having veneer match the face grain too, so six of one / half a dozen of the other...

I'm feeling better and better about the strength of the long grain glue-up, so I think that's one less concern. On thing I liked about the concept of the lock-miter joint was thinking the alignment would be perfect.

Anything outside of veneered glued up boards, solid 16/4, or glued up thinner boards will have the issue of a line showing through the chamfers. This would have to be combatted with a rabbet and sapele insert. That sounds like too much work compared to a more solid, non-mitered leg.

[Wes Grass]

I was thinking a simple miter, and rub gluing some square blocks even with the inner edge for location and clamping rather than trying to do a spline.

The other option would be to miter, but offset so the chamfers meet the joint on one side. But that will show where the miters are stopped.

[Mike Konobeck]

Too much work to miter and you just end up with a core you have to fill if you need to do any mortising. Just face joint and glue up as many boards you need to get the thickness you want and laminate with 1/8" veneer cut from the same board that you used as the core. One idea is to glue up the boards so you have at least 5/8" extra thickness and bandsaw off your veneers from each side of the leg so you end up with very consistent grain all the way around. Just did it and I really don't think you could see the seams unless you really got close.

[Alan Lightstone]

Can you get the back of the veneer cuts smooth enough to get a good glue joint? Do you have to run the veneer through a drum sander first?
And how much narrower do you need to have the end grain sides before applying the veneer? Do you just subtract 1/4" from the width of the boards?
Can you consistently get 1/8" veneer with the bandsaw (I do have a Laguna 14SUV with a resaw king blade. I've never used it, though) Do you go for a little more than 1/8" cuts on the bandsaw to allow for a little loss from a drum sander?

I've never cut my own veneers before. I've always glued up commercially cut ones. I do have some commercially cut sapele veneers (probably 1/32"), so the end grain sides would match, but they wouldn't necessarily match the face grain of the wood.

I do like that idea, Mike. I can see it looking great if done properly.

[john bateman]

Can you get the back of the veneer cuts smooth enough to get a good glue joint? Do you have to run the veneer through a drum sander first?
And how much narrower do you need to have the end grain sides before applying the veneer? Do you just subtract 1/4" from the width of the boards?
Can you consistently get 1/8" veneer with the bandsaw (I do have a Laguna 14SUV with a resaw king blade. I've never used it, though) Do you go for a little more than 1/8" cuts on the bandsaw to allow for a little loss from a drum sander?

I've never cut my own veneers before. I've always glued up commercially cut ones. I do have some commercially cut sapele veneers (probably 1/32"), so the end grain sides would match, but they wouldn't necessarily match the face grain of the wood.

I do like that idea, Mike. I can see it looking great if done properly.

I've done it that way too. Basically, you face glue up your boards 3" x 3-1/2". Joint all sides smooth. Then cut off a 1/8" thick veneer from each of the narrow ends, flip it so the jointed side is getting glued to the jointed face you want to hide. Use a backer board and plenty of clamps. When finished, you can plane or joint the rough bandsawn areas smooth again.

You would probably want to oversize everything a little to make sure the finished piece can be made to your exact dimension.

[Alan Lightstone]

Didn't think of flipping them. That solves lots of issues. Thanks. That also bookmatches the sides of the legs, which should look nice.

[J.R. Rutter]

I have made lots of legs with just a plain miter joint and glue. It is a long grain joint so it's plenty strong. I use packing tape stretched around the leg to clamp it. I start at one end and spiral wrap to the other end stretching the tape as I go.

This is the way that I do it. Long grain glue joint is stronger than the wood. 15 minutes per leg and you're done.

[Kent A Bathurst]

If you scroll down to the bottom of this thread, you can open a sketch of some 3" + legs I just made. They look great, if I do say so myself........safe TS operations. Easy glue + clamping. I dyed the glue a bit to get it to match the ultimate dye + stain color.......only a few places where the glue line is actually visible, but no doubt those will disappear in the next 24 hours as I get into the finishing.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?172890-making-table-legs-out-of-2-pieces-of-5-4-stock&highlight=

[Alan Lightstone]

OK. I read and digested all the above comments. Gratitude to all for your wonderful advice.

I chose to cut my own 1/8" veneers. My Laguna TS and Resaw King blade worked fantastically. Then glueing up 7/8" sapele boards, jointing, planing, and glued the veneers to the end grain sides. Looked great. Held my breath and chamfered 1/2" stop chamfers on the corners of the legs. They look awesome.

Here's a picture of the glue up before and after chamfering. Unless you are totally looking for it, you can't see the veneers.

This is after the glue-up:
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And this is after the stopped chamfers were routed:
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I think once the finish is put on, you really won't be able to see the veneered sides. And no question it looks great having qs face grain on all four sides.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Well done. Yeah, you definitely shouldn't worry about the resaw results with that blade and that bandsaw. I hear it's a great machine.