140 trick: More trouble than it's worth??

[Chris Griggs]

This is probably one of those subjects that has been hashed and rehashed long before I got into woodworking, but I wanted to know folks feelings about.

Last night I started dovetailing the first of 9 drawers for the jewelery chest of drawers I am currently working on. Back when I dovetailed the case together, I used my LV skew rabbit to try out the 140 trick for the first time. I had never used this trick before, and in joining the 7.5" wide case found it very helpful.

Because it was so helpful I decided to use it again when joining the drawers. The drawer sides are only 2.5" wide, and while the rabbet did make transferring the marks easier, for such small drawers I don't think it was worth it for the following reasons.

1) Having to adjust the rabbet plane (or at least check the settings on) and marking gauge for each set of dovetails is extra work
2) It potentially introduces more error into the overall equations if your rabbets aren't perfect. One of my rabbets was cut ever so slightly deeper on one end than the other, which threw things off just a tad (nothing that can't be clamped out in glueup). This doesn't generally happen to me on wide boards but on something narrow its a lot easier to accidentally tilt the plane and screw up the rabbet.

Anyway, just some random thoughts, that aren't anything original. For joining cases I will continue to use it since it really does make it easier to align wider boards. For the making multiple little/shallow drawers, I'll probably ditch the trick entirely (I've gotten by just fine w/o it in the past) or maybe I'll just use it on the half blinds on the front and not the through DTs on the back.

Just curious what you alls experiences/opinion of the 140 trick?

[Jim Koepke]

I am still undecided.

So far, it seems to introduce a new source of errors.

It does help on wide dovetails, but it can still make something relatively easy more difficult.

jtk

[Trevor Walsh]

This was a big help doing a blanket chest, particularly during the layout phase. We cut ours with a dado stack in the class, but same principal applies.

[Chris Griggs]

So far seems like your guys experiences matches my own. It is quite helpful on wider boards. On narrower boards, as Jim said, seems like it just introduces more error.

[larry ciccolo]

Here is what I generally do....and maybe a well known little thing that everyone already does..... not quite by the book I know but ok results so far.
After cutting the tails and chopping out the waste;
Along my scribe line at the base of each tail I use the chisel to remove less than 1/32 ....similiar to what you would do on a 1st class saw cut.
Then I set the pin board in the vise at "hairs breath" higher than the height of a plane and move the plane back to set my tail board end on it.
The slight difference in height allows that small edge on the tails to register on the pin board like the 140 trick.
I know it is not conventional but so far it has worked, it is very quick to do and I have not experienced any problem due to the slight difference in height between the boards when marking the pins.

[Jonas Baker]

I am trying to figure out what the 140 trick is exactly, though I have seen it mentioned many times. I believe it is making a rabbet cut (using a stanley 140 or preferably one of the veritas or lie-nielsen versions with a fence) on the inside edge of the board where your tails will be, right? And this would be done to help keep your boards at the proper 90 degree angle when clamping the drawers together, right? This actually makes perfect sense to me, because it also gives you a rabbet on the edge of the board that clearly defines how far you should cut your dovetails (sometimes I lose sight of the line made with a marking gauge and cut past the line with the saw), and then it gives you a little ledge for marking your dovetails on the drawer fronts and backs, right? Is there anything else I'm missing here?

Thanks,

Jonas

[Chris Griggs]

I am trying to figure out what the 140 trick is exactly, though I have seen it mentioned many times. I believe it is making a rabbet cut (using a stanley 140 or preferably one of the veritas or lie-nielsen versions with a fence) on the inside edge of the board where your tails will be, right? And this would be done to help keep your boards at the proper 90 degree angle when clamping the drawers together, right? This actually makes perfect sense to me, because it also gives you a rabbet on the edge of the board that clearly defines how far you should cut your dovetails (sometimes I lose sight of the line made with a marking gauge and cut past the line with the saw), and then it gives you a little ledge for marking your dovetails on the drawer fronts and backs, right? Is there anything else I'm missing here?

Thanks,

Jonas

That's it exactly, and yes it can be very helpful! It certainly makes transferring your tail marks to the pin board much easier. What I'm finding though is that there are some situations where it has potential to do more harm then good, and wanted to see if others had the same experience.

[Tony Shea]

Hey Jonas, I don't believe this trick will help with keeping your boards 90* when clamping. That is the only thing in your post the trick doesn't help with. Basically its' purpose is to aid in marking out your tail board onto the pin board. I've found it to be a blessing with carcass dovetails, but as you said it is a tad more finicky with narrow stock. Especially with a larger rabbetting plane such as the Veritas. And using the 140 is a bit sketchy as there is no depth stop to give you an even rabbet. I've shyed away also with narrow stock and resorted back to my original methods.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Yeah, I haven't found it to help keep things 90 degrees, but it certainly helps keep the piece from slipping. I only have a wooden moving fillester plane, so I've only used it on larger pieces, as it's difficult to get a consistent depth of cut on a smaller piece with that plane on a shorter piece - furthered by the fact that my fillester plane's depth stop won't set to such a small increment. The last time I did smaller pieces, I found it easier to just spring clamp a straight piece to my tail board to act as a fence for marking. When I get a proper work surface, I'm hoping things won't be so finicky as they are on my various kludged together solutions.

[jamie shard]

Two shavings seems to be point at which there is enough of a lip to register, but the rebate is not so deep that errors creep in -- as far as I can tell.

[Chris Griggs]

That's a good point Jamie. You really don't need much. For the drawer I just made, I used about a 1/32" deep rabbet, which is likely too much. For the rest of the drawers (1 down, 8 to go), I was going to ditch the rabbet entirely, and just use my usual method, but now I'm thinking I'll try just making the rabbet a couple shavings deep vs relying on the depth stop and see how that works. There's no question that for me the rabbet is worthwhile when dovetailing carcasses, so I'll give your suggestion a try before I ditch it for drawers. Actually Larry C's method also sounded interesting (and pretty brilliant), so maybe I'll give that a whirl too. What better place to experiment with techniques, than on a nearly completed project :D - I must be nuts! Oh well, as long as I don't mess up the actual drawer fronts (all of which came from the same piece of sycamore and of which I have no extra) it won't really be a big deal. If I really screw up some drawer sides with my experimenting I guess I can easily remake them.

[Sean Hughto]

"140 trick: More trouble than it's worth??"

Yes.

[gary Zimmel]

I use the "140 trick" pretty much all the time.
Seems to work well for me and am able to do a not bad 1/2 blind all of the time.

It's what you are used to, I would guess.