Plagiarism

[David Reed]

I have had a skeleton idea rattling about my head for some time now and it included the southwest form I recently completed and some pyro. I turned the form and had basic ideas (including an ascending spiral!) before seeing her work. I want to mimic some of the paleolithic art similar to that found in Lascaux, France. I am especially drawn to the stylized horse and bison images. My problem now is I have since seen some of the work by Molly Winton and this is exactly what I want to reproduce. Of course, since seeing her work, I am no doubt influenced a fair bit by it, but not entirely. Now I cannot get these designs out of my head and have tried in vain to come up with a original reproduction (oxymoron) using similar images and layout, but can't do it. Is this plagiarism, unethical or just cheesy to reproduce works similar to hers using ancient (uncopywrited) images as models when her influence will be clearly obvious?
I had in mind a design similar to the one pictured below and it may emerge remarkably similar. Where are the limits here? I do not sell any of my work.

[Thom Sturgill]

If you are not selling there is no copyright issue, as far a I know. I can think of several variants, but she has done several herself. I don't think the use of the motif is 'per se' plagerism.

[Tim Rinehart]

I think there's a subtle difference between outright duplication/plagiarism and influence. It's a widely discussed topic.
Hey...look at how all the great works including this one by Molly is influenced by SW pottery design, and the designs are influenced from other sources.
How she has blended them together is part of her unique style on this piece.
I think as long as you give some credit to being influenced by a particular artist, you're being honest and it shouldn't be a problem.
I do think there are times when two or more people come up with similar ideas without knowledge of each other's piece, and that should bear out in minor nuances between the pieces.
The fact that you're not trying to sell on market helps, but see what others say.

[Peter Lamb]

Talk to Molly, give attribution and don't sell is the best you can do. Copying the masters has been around a very long time.
Peter

[Dick Wilson]

Peter, I know where you are coming from. My delemia is this: When I "think" of a turning idea I can't remember if it is original in my mind or if it is something I have seen in past years and it comes into my mind and I think it is original to me. I have had a couple of instances where I have seen a turning and it looks so much like what I have done it is eerie. What came first the chicken or the egg?????? Is it plagerism????? The last thing I want to have happen is for someone to say "So and so turned a piece exactly like this....what did you do, turn this from their picture?" :(:(:(

[Brian Kent]

I agree with what has been said. As a creative exercise, you can spend some time looking at the southwest form - your own and others - and then go back to the cave paintings. While you have an excellent example as to how it can be done, you also have your source material.

[Hayes Rutherford]

Just make the horses run in the opposite direction on future pieces and no one will know.

[Bill Bulloch]

I would think you could do a design that might be simular to hers without it being considered plagiarism. Her ideas were probably influenced by Cave Art. Your work could be influenced by her, cave art or even Alley Oop -- if you are worried about it then give her credit for the idea. We borrow design ideas from other turners all the time. I look at my work and can not find a single idea that wasn't influenced from someone or something else. I wish in-fact, that I could copy her work close enough that it would be considered plagiarism.

[John Beaver]

Picasso said, "bad artists copy, good artists steal"

I agree that making a copy and selling it would be wrong, but certainly you can make if for yourself. However, there are a lot of turners doing Southwest based forms, I'm sure you can vary your idea enough to make it your own. For some similar inspiration try to look up Malcolm Ray from Maine.

[David Reed]

I do think there are times when two or more people come up with similar ideas without knowledge of each other's piece, and that should bear out in minor nuances between the pieces.

So true when I turned what I consider one of my best designs and several months later found nearly the exact same thing previously turned by Cyndi Drosda.

I can't remember if it is original in my mind or if it is something I have seen in past years and it comes into my mind and I think it is original to me.
I think I am guilty of this as well. Something about cognitive dysfunction comes to mind


As a creative exercise, you can spend some time looking at the southwest form - your own and others - and then go back to the cave paintings. While you have an excellent example as to how it can be done, you also have your source material.
I guess it boils down to who do we attribute our insight.


Just make the horses run in the opposite direction on future pieces and no one will know.
I like it


Picasso said, "bad artists copy, good artists steal"

Touche'!

When in Rome I learned that any ancient (even in the time of the Roman empire) Greek art they could not steal, they purchased; whatever they could not purchase, they copied.
Guess I am just too sensitive about this issue.

[Brian Kent]

I have never turned, but when I do, I intend to plagiarize for years before having an original idea.

[allen thunem]

this is one of those horses that wont seem to die no matter how hard you beat it.........

[Tim Thiebaut]

David this piece is just beautiful!

[Jon Lanier]

No idea is original.

To 'Copy' a work, would be to copy it exactly. Too take the original and put it on a duplicator, turning, burning and painting. To work off the idea of another is not copying. If this were true, none of us could make anything, I've seen shapes turned here that are found in the pottery world. No one is calling that 'stealing.'

[David DeCristoforo]

I think Jon has an excellent point. Plagiarizing is defined thus:

"...to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source"

Anything short of that falls under the heading of "influence". I don't think there is an artist, living or dead who would not have an answer for the question, "Who has been your biggest influence." OK... there may be those who have no ideas of their own, regardless of how much exposure they may have had to "influences". It might be that they simply have never gotten in touch with that part of themselves from which ideas spring. But most people who are driven to work in a creative arena do not fall into this group. They do have ideas and often those ideas spring from the ideas of others. And sometimes, ideas just have a way of implanting themselves into more than one mind at a time. So you could easily have an idea for a work and then see that same idea executed by another with whom you have no contact with. If you had actualized your vision before they did, you would be getting the credit for the idea and they would be scratching their head asking the same question you are asking. However you look at it, influence is inevitable. Go ahead and make your piece. It probably will not look exactly like Molly's anyway. There's tons of artists out there who's work looks "similar"

[Greg Just]

One dictionary definition is:

Literary theft. Plagiarism occurs when a writer duplicates another writer's language or ideas and then calls the work his or her own. Copyright laws protect writers' words as their legal property. To avoid the charge of plagiarism, writers take care to credit those from whom they borrow and quote.

As the definition states, "take care to credit this from whom they borrow".

Perhaps Molly copied someone that she saw.

[David E Keller]

I think if you're making for your own pleasure, cut/copy/paste at will! I wouldn't sell a piece that was strongly influenced by another's work unless I had prior approval from the artist in question.

I'm a big fan of Molly's work, but I don't think it's particularly original. Let me explain... The form has been done. Pyrography has been used for a long time before she became well known. The shapes and designs are obviously much older than anybody reading this. What makes her work appealing to me is not the originality. It appeals to me because of the way she combines the elements and the skill with which it's done! She does marvelous work, but I think she has done more to popularize a style than to innovate something new.

[Jeff Nicol]

There really is no issue with form, style, coloring, embelishments etc. They are all just parts of turning and no one has a "Claim" to any of the things we all use in our turnings, like already said then we all could turn nothing that was not a "Copy". The only way it would be wrong and possibly illeagal is if you made a piece and said it was made my Molly, or any other well known turner/artist so that it would sell with the provenance of the well known artist. The other would be to take a turning that was made by someone else and you remarked it as your own. So if you like the stylings of Molly Winton she was inspired also by the things mentioned about cave paintings or other ancient drawings and so on. If you change the color a bit add another band of critters or less or whatever to make it special.

If you go to large shows you will see many items that look about the same, but each of us have little differences in our techniques and skills and that will always separate us.

Imitation is a complement to the original, but will never be the original

Jeff

[Damon Stathatos]

... My problem now is I have since seen some of the work by Molly Winton and this is exactly what I want to reproduce... Now I cannot get these designs out of my head and have tried in vain to come up with a original reproduction... Is this plagiarism, unethical or just cheesy... I had in mind a design similar to the one pictured below and it may emerge remarkably similar. ... I do not sell any of my work.

You've already answered your own question, numerous times.

Since you don't sell any of your work, why are you concerned with plagiarism?

I think the real issue is that you had something similar to her work in your mind, saw her work, and now realize that even if you can pull it off, you wouldn't enjoy the same self-satisfaction you would have, had you not seen her work.

So what do you do? You either finally create something now, after being influenced (albeit innocently or reluctantly) by her designs or you figure out something else. Nothing personal but she beat you to it, did a great job at it, and now you can either 'copy' her or come up with something different (not universally different, just different).

Please don't get the wrong idea, I've never come up with an original design idea in my life, that's an extremely difficult thing to do. I'd be surprised if Molly Winton would even (honestly) admit to it. But to look for the same self-satisfaction you may have had by executing what has already been 'originated', is probably a worthless pursuit at this point.

My intent is not to bring you down here. You asked the question. Look at this as an opportunity. Use her work as 'groundwork' and begin to figure out the next generation. The Lascaux Cave paintings are awe-inspiring. Molly Winton's vases are exceptional. There is a tremendous amount of range remaining between awe inspiring and exceptional...so go for it.

Best to you.

[Curt Fuller]

I've never met Molly Winton but I've admired her work for a long time. From reading her posts on various forums I've found that she's not just talented but witty and has a great sense of humor. She also gives a lot of her time demonstrating her techniques with what I would assume is the hope that other turners will gain from her talents. Although I don't think she wants anyone to try to make exact copies of her work, she goes to pretty great lengths to teach how to do it. I know that even if I wanted to copy something she has done, my version would end up much different because I lack her skills but also because I can't reproduce all the influences she has experienced that got her to where she is in her vision of what she wants to do. So I guess what I'm saying David is that I'd go for it and even contact her for pointers on her techniques. Just go into it with the intent of making a Molly Winton style piece of art with a David Reed touch that makes it unique in its own way.