How much sanding is enough?

[Kent A Bathurst]

I hate sanding. Gotta be done, but I don't have to like it. I am looking at a hefty pile of components that is almost complete, and sanding is next. So I started thinking: "I wonder if I sand too much?"

All parts jointed + planed with pretty sharp straight blade knives. QSWO = very hard wood [not like that sissy poplar/cherry stuff]. 5" ROS sander hooked to Fein vac. Running Mirka at the moment.

For "show surfaces", my standard is 120-150-180. Overlapping pattern by 50% [ie - pass 3 covers half of pass 2. etc.]. First cross grain, then with grain. So, in effect, each sq mm gets a sanding pass 4 times. ROS transit speed at between 2 and 3 IPS. Bose noise-cancelling headphones into laptop, and w/bluegrass music via Bluegrass Country-dot-org. Beer or red wine.

For "can't see" surfaces, I don't overlap 50% - just the minimum, and I stop after 150.

Has always turned out ducky for the past 12+ years. Typical finish is dye, gel stain to color the grain pores, shellac seal, then XYZ [currently Behlen's].

But - is there an empirical way to determine when enough is enough? Will practice tell my fingers when its done? Is it some Yoda/Force thing? How do you guys decide?

thanks

Kent

[Dave Gaul]

Here are my thoughts.
Parts must be flat first, smooth will come later.
The goal of the next grit is to remove the scratches from the previous grit.
I sand flat with the first grit until milling marks and imperfections are gone. Move to the next grit until I don't see the roughness of the previous. Sand with the final grit until I'm happy with the surface, and keeping things flat. I then wipe the parts with alcohol. The alcohol will clean up leftover dust, and give you a quick idea how the wood will look finished, and will surely show any missed milling marks and/or scratches from sanding.

I'm with ya though, sanding isn't my favorite thing to do!

[Kent A Bathurst]

Here are my thoughts.
Parts must be flat first, smooth will come later.
> Never an issue.

The goal of the next grit is to remove the scratches from the previous grit.
> Understood that as well

I sand flat with the first grit until milling marks and imperfections are gone. Move to the next grit until I don't see the roughness of the previous. Sand with the final grit until I'm happy with the surface,
> THAT is where I was looking for something empirical - the "happy" part.:D

and keeping things flat. I then wipe the parts with alcohol. The alcohol will clean up leftover dust, and give you a quick idea how the wood will look finished, and will surely show any missed milling marks and/or scratches from sanding.

I'm with ya though, sanding isn't my favorite thing to do!


Thanks for the thoughts...........

Regards

Kent

[Kent Chasson]

"But - is there an empirical way to determine when enough is enough?"

I'm done when I don't see scratches from the previous grit.

I usually skip the 150 with no problems. It may take a bit longer with the 180 but still a time saver.

[Steve Griffin]

I love sanding.

Turn on some tunes and enjoy the final step of the project....

Here's a few tips which help make it fun:

-If you can afford a wide belt sander, most parts will just need a quick 220 touch up

-IF you have a shaper, you can dimension all pieces to width and never again have to sand out rip saw marks.

-6" ROS gets the job done 30% faster than 5"

-If you can't see results at each step, you are wasting time. In other words, I'd never go from 150 to 180, since I can't tell any improvment without extremely close inspection in perfect light. I usually go from 120 to 220, and it's obvious were I've sanded and when I'm done.

[Gil Knowles]

Hi
I do not mind sanding. I usually work with hardwoods, primarily cherry.
I go 120, 220 and then 320. I used to stop at 220 but I find 320 gives
a little better finish. I normally will then apply a thinned coat of BLO
and then shellac or oil/varnish mix which is then rubbed out and then a
couple coats of Minwax finishing paste wax.
Maybe I go overboard but I like the results.
Gil

[Dave Avery]

I sand through 180 or 220. I also found that sanding became much less onerous after I bought a Festool Rotex sander :)

[glenn bradley]

I rarely power sand at all. Unless something odd has happened I give a couple passes with a cabinet scraper to flat surfaces and open curves. I start sanding at 220 grit if required and usually stop there following up with a scraper. For details and end grain I go to higher grits. I go as high as 600 depending on the item but don't do that for large surfaces at all. If I run a clean hand (not one loaded with sawdust) across it and it is smooth to the touch, I'm done. For ebony, carved accents and other details the "finished" point is strictly visual. I do not use heavy film finishes to "smooth things out". This looks too plastic-y (sp?) for my taste. that's just me. YMMV.

[Larry Frank]

I never even thought about how much sanding I need to do as I will get depressed. I have found that if I have done a good job of planing and fitting parts that I need a lot less sanding. I typically will sand 180 and 220 before starting to finish but have found that with some woods or sand paper, I will need more. For surfaces that you can not see, I will do less. For the top of a cabinet, doors or drawer fronts, I will make certain that the 220 feels good and many times will go to 320.

One of the big differences for me is that I will only put 2-3 coats of finish without too much sanding between for surfaces that you can not see. For ones that are very prominent, I will use more coats and typcially go to a 400 before a final coat which is usually a wipe on coat.

I know that I have done it properly if my wife makes a final inspection and is happy.

[Chris Fournier]

Unless I've got a poorly set up machine or have been sloppy on said machines I rarely have to start sanding below 180 grit. 180 gets attention - remove machine marks and 220 flies on by checking the sanding scratches. Sanding is no drudgery if you are careful on the machiens and can use a handplane or a scraper to tidy things up before you pull out the paper.

Personally, I don't mind sanding as it is part of the process; this being said I manage my projects in a way that reduces sanding to a bare minumum. Hand in glove.

[Mike Goetzke]

I hear ya on this subject. I'm about 2/3's done with frame/panel raised panel doors and end caps for our kitchen. The flats sand quickly with my Festool ETS150/3 EQ (I have a Rotex 150 but don't like it for finish work). My ogee raised panel pattern end grains can even be sanded with the ROS. The Freud quatra-cut bits I used leave such a smooth finish I only hit the long grain with final grit. What is really wearing me out is that I mistakenly showed my wife a door edge profile bit that has a very shallow ogee. This profile needs to be sanded by hand. I keep telling myself not to cut corners and the hand finished doors will look great. I'm using 120, 150, 180, 220, then 320.

Here is my top/mid/bottom drawer fronts:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Kitchen/Cabinets/Drawers/IMG_2175.jpg

I use WB finish. One coat of amber shellac to raise grain and tone the wood a bit and four coats of satin lacquer. I sand the lacquer after the first coat with 320 to rid the raised grain and where needed on subsequent coats use 400 to remove any nibs. I have learned a lot on this project. I'm becoming a spray finish expert:D. I built a drying rack and run an air cleaner and find almost no dust nibs in my finish. This saves lots of sanding between coats.

Mike

[Stephen Cherry]

I rarely power sand at all. Unless something odd has happened I give a couple passes with a cabinet scraper to flat surfaces and open curves. I start sanding at 220 grit if required and usually stop there following up with a scraper. YMMV.

I like the scraper also. It takes a little effort to sharpen, and needs to be resharpened often, but it makes a super nice surface. For removing an old finish, in my opinion, nothing is even close.

[Danny Hamsley]

What is really aggravating is when you sand, sand, sand, and then, more sand, sand, sand, then start applying the finish, and see something that leads you to believe that you did not sand enough..............I almost believe that too much sanding is not enough, if you know what I mean.

[Kent A Bathurst]

OK - thanks for the insight. I'm going to do it this way this afternoon........150 - 180, feel for smoothness and visually inspect for swirls, and see how it goes. 40 +/- pre-assembly parts for the base of an Arts + Crafts dining room table [2/3 are square spindles, but they still count, right?]. Room is tight for something that big, so I gotta go through finishing and assembly, and move it upstairs to somewhere, so I can get going on the table top.

I have, in the past, gone past 180, but I haven't seen the benefit on the open-pored QSWO. On the end grain [ie - table tops], I hand-sand 220 - 320 to burnish the grain, then carefully brush on [very small artist's brush] a couple coats ultra blonde shellac - seals it perfectly, so that the dye absorption matches the long grain's color perfectly.

And - to all the Festool responses....pffthhhht!!! :p

EDIT: I guess I shouldn't be too hard on you green kool-aid junkies; I should be grateful that I didn't get a bunch of "dual-drum sander" replies, huh? :D Which I what I really want to get someday..........but the bucks, not just for the sander, but for the DC piping, and the copper wire to explosion-proof the PVC and flex hose.





That last bit was a joke, guys.

[bill tindall]

Grit selection The tech staff of sanding supply companies will typically recommend skipping one grit size in a grit progression. So in your case it would be 120 and then 180. The 150 step is unnecessary.

The "80/20" rule usually works. 80% of the time on the first grit and 20 on the remaining grits. I know I am done sanding at each grit when the surface looks uniformly bright. If there is a shiny spot it means the machine burnishing is not removed. If there is a dull place it means that area has torn grain that is capturing dust (and it will therefore capture stain and be dark).

I always hand sand the last grit size. I can see problems better while hand sanding and devote more time to these areas.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Bill - thanks. Good points there. I hadn't thought about the 80/20 thing, but it makes some sense - the first grit smooths everything out, and subsequent passes just replace large scratches with smaller scratches. I'd not be comfortable skipping grits on the QSWO..........stuff is rock-hard, and I find that the progression actually makes quicker work of it, because the 120-180 would leave too much heavy lifting for the 180. That's my thinking anyway, at least for now. I'll experiment when I get a chance.

[David Hawxhurst]

i use a pencil and scribble all over the surface that needs sanding, then sand until you don't see anymore pencil marks. move to next high grit and repeat until you reach the highest grit you plan to sand till. i do this for hand or machine sanding.

[Terry Beadle]

I use almost no sand paper. I use a very sharp smoother, followed by a card scraper and if it needs anything past that a quick touch up with 320 with the grain only to make the final surface uniform as the card scraper can leave a different texture than the smoother.

Sanding is almost an after thought.

That said, enough sanding is readily identified if you put on the finish and see too many rough spots. Rough meaning unidentified tear out or scratches.

Most modern finishes are very forgiving and with proper very lite 320 sanding between coats, will fill the rough parts. If not, then more sanding or card scraping is warranted.

IMO it's much faster getting good results to integrate some neander tooling in your projects. Besides, all sawdust is a carcinogen.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I use almost no sand paper. I use a very sharp smoother, followed by a card scraper and if it needs anything past that a quick touch up with 320 with the grain only to make the final surface uniform as the card scraper can leave a different texture than the smoother.

My personal goal over the next year is to develop that technique as much as possible.

[Kent A Bathurst]

i use a pencil and scribble all over the surface that needs sanding, then sand until you don't see anymore pencil marks. move to next high grit and repeat until you reach the highest grit you plan to sand till. i do this for hand or machine sanding.

David: yeah, I've used that method on tighter grained wood, but with the texture of QSWO, the pencil marks can get in waaaayyyy deeper that a normal sanding process will remove them.

And - Sir - Thank you for your service, and for your willingness to go where that medal can be earned.

Are you active duty? Where in NoVa? I lived in Leesburg, College Park, and Fairfax at various points in my youth.

[Chris Fournier]

Either/and/or a well set up machine or handplane/scraper makes 120 grit a rarely used grit in a fine woodworking shop when flat surfaces are being finished. I consider 120 to be very coarse and it truely does take the details and mush them up. I also consider 220 to be about all you need on most raw woods. Grits finer than this are reserved for the finishes.

[Jim German]

I think going above 180 on most woods is unnecessary.

Also sounds like you're making alot of passes, if you're using a ROS you don't need to go cross grain, and then with the grain.

Lastly I'd get a 6" ROS, Festool or another brand. A 6' ROS has almost 50% more sanding area than a 5".

[Mats Bengtsson]

Either/and/or a well set up machine or handplane/scraper makes 120 grit a rarely used grit in a fine woodworking shop when flat surfaces are being finished. I consider 120 to be very coarse and it truely does take the details and mush them up. I also consider 220 to be about all you need on most raw woods. Grits finer than this are reserved for the finishes.

I would agree. Even say that if it is not high gloss or clear finish, I would not go above 120. But I would go to 220 on the next layer of finish, and I would pass that on coming layers, depending on the finish.

As a note of interest: I have had same thoufghts as thread creator. Two years ago, I cut down on the sanding, especially the sanding between layers of finish. Viewing those items a month after completion, I concluded I prefer the tedious sanding. (but where possible, sickle/plane is a very good alternative).

--- Mats ---

[Jeff Duncan]

Wow, you guys are hardcore!!!

I can't imagine ever sanding QSWO to more than 150 grit for any reason. Some woods in very particular circumstances sure, (fine marquetry, or jewelry boxes for instance), but not that wood, and not for doors or furniture parts.

My sanding schedule for a QSWO door would be first through the timesaver at 150 grit. Then I'd ROS to 120 grit to remove cross grain scratches and finish off with 150 grit to take stain nicely. I can imagine why your frustrated if your trying to sand oak to 180 grit.

good luck,
JeffD

[Kent A Bathurst]

Wow, you guys are hardcore!!!

I can't imagine ever sanding QSWO to more than 150 grit for any reason. Some woods in very particular circumstances sure, (fine marquetry, or jewelry boxes for instance), but not that wood, and not for doors or furniture parts.

My sanding schedule for a QSWO door would be first through the timesaver at 150 grit. Then I'd ROS to 120 grit to remove cross grain scratches and finish off with 150 grit to take stain nicely. I can imagine why your frustrated if your trying to sand oak to 180 grit.

good luck,
JeffD

Jeff - thanks - couple points:
1] I'm not frustrated, simply bored. And - time to kill while sanding and drinking Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. And - the hard part - I'm challenging some of my fundamental principles - thought I'd see what others think. "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got." What if what I "know" is baloney? If I was doing an exterior door, I'd be right there with you.
2] If I had a timesaver, I would not have posted this thread ;)
3] I can notice a difference between the 150 final sand and the 180......I may be too particular, or I may be dreaming, but that's what it is. Understand - the primary "show" surfaces are veneer-grade old-growth stuff @ $OMG!!/bf.
4] I don't spray. No equipment. If I did have the equip, it would not matter, because there is simply no room. So - after sanding, my first step when I am doing the A&C stuff, including Stickley/Ellis repros, is water-borne dye - can't use the alcohol version, because I can't spray. After that, I have to take some action, and what I have settled on is light pass with 320, and another pass with red synthetic pad. Cleans up the raised-grain fibers from the water, and lets me take back the dye color a bit on the ray flecks to highlight them, if I want to. So. it seems to me that since I gotta clean it up after the dye, the 180 works well.

Halfway done right now with the pile........150-180. Fewer passes. Appears cool so far.

If it all turns out whacked, I have the list of people from this thread to blame.........you KNOW I'm not gonna take the hit, right? :D

Regards

Kent

[Steve Griffin]

Interesting.

I'd say if you can't tell the difference in sanding QSWO to 150 or 220, then you are lucky.

I'm not so lucky and can see a huge difference. 150 still leaves visible swirls in good light and 220 makes the wood look brighter and the grain less mushy.

I don't always sand to 220 though--drawer boxes and toe kicks come to mind....

[Mike Goetzke]

Wow, you guys are hardcore!!!

I can't imagine ever sanding QSWO to more than 150 grit for any reason. Some woods in very particular circumstances sure, (fine marquetry, or jewelry boxes for instance), but not that wood, and not for doors or furniture parts.

My sanding schedule for a QSWO door would be first through the timesaver at 150 grit. Then I'd ROS to 120 grit to remove cross grain scratches and finish off with 150 grit to take stain nicely. I can imagine why your frustrated if your trying to sand oak to 180 grit.

good luck,
JeffD

This post is (and others related to sanding/finishaing) confusing me the more I read it. I use Target WB finishes and Jeff Weiss suggested sanding the bare wood for my kitchen cabinets to 220 or even 320 before applying tinted shellac seal coat. Then apply one coat of top coat and use 400 to get rid of raised grain. Thereafter use 600 to rid dust nibs.

Maybe if one is using stain and non-WB finishes the sanding schedule changes?


Mike

[Kent A Bathurst]

Maybe if one is using stain and non-WB finishes the sanding schedule changes?
Mike

Mike....

IMO, the answer to that question is "absolutely".

My original post/process is specific only to the QSWO going after a Stickley/Ellis reproduction look on QSWO. I have never used WB coatings, so I don't know about them - yet - might get there one day.

For, say, cherry or curly maple with shellac finish, I do it differently.

Do. What. Works. For. You.

[Jeff Duncan]

This post is (and others related to sanding/finishaing) confusing me the more I read it. I use Target WB finishes and Jeff Weiss suggested sanding the bare wood for my kitchen cabinets to 220 or even 320 before applying tinted shellac seal coat. Then apply one coat of top coat and use 400 to get rid of raised grain. Thereafter use 600 to rid dust nibs.

Maybe if one is using stain and non-WB finishes the sanding schedule changes?


Mike

Nope, I used to shoot water based also, and I never went near 220 grit. Between coats sanding is done with 400 grit.

Also you should never see swirls in your finished piece. Swirls mean that you skipped block sanding after the ROS, which is a must regardless of grit!

How much you need to sand really depends on what your looking for. Most people will not ever be able to tell the difference between 150 - 180+ grit on a properly sanded piece. When I started out I worked for a high end millwork supplier where I learned techniques of sanding and finishing. In all the pieces I sanded we never went past 150 grit.

Not saying anyone shouldn't sand to whatever grit they desire. Just make sure your not doing more than you need to.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mike Goetzke]

Nope, I used to shoot water based also, and I never went near 220 grit. Between coats sanding is done with 400 grit.

Also you should never see swirls in your finished piece. Swirls mean that you skipped block sanding after the ROS, which is a must regardless of grit!

How much you need to sand really depends on what your looking for. Most people will not ever be able to tell the difference between 150 - 180+ grit on a properly sanded piece. When I started out I worked for a high end millwork supplier where I learned techniques of sanding and finishing. In all the pieces I sanded we never went past 150 grit.

Not saying anyone shouldn't sand to whatever grit they desire. Just make sure your not doing more than you need to.

good luck,
JeffD

JeffD - Thanks for the info. - will cut my sanding time in half. When you say block sand do you do this with a power tool or by hand?

Thanks

[David Hawxhurst]

David: yeah, I've used that method on tighter grained wood, but with the texture of QSWO, the pencil marks can get in waaaayyyy deeper that a normal sanding process will remove them.

And - Sir - Thank you for your service, and for your willingness to go where that medal can be earned.

Are you active duty? Where in NoVa? I lived in Leesburg, College Park, and Fairfax at various points in my youth.

i've used this technique on wenge and purple heart not sure how much more open grained qswo is. the first grit or two is the most work, but after that is pretty fast.

your welcome.

still active till next summer. nova is northern virginia (i'm actully in Northern Neck area).

[Karl Card]

I feel kind of ignorant about sanding after reading the comments. I go from 150, 220, 320, 400, 600 and sometimes 800 depending on the wood. My thought process was that the smoother the wood, the smoother the finish and less buffing (lacquer) ... I wish I could take a class on finishing, it truly is one of my bad areas, not that I have real good areas just some worse than others. I love the looks of glossy lacquer when it is calm water smooth with no imperfections what so ever. Problem is I cant get the finish I want from a spray can, I love the out come of Deft lacquer but wow it dries to fast for a large piece.

[Jeff Duncan]

Block sanding is done by hand. Once you've reached you final desired grit you take an old fashioned sanding block and use some elbow grease;) This removes the swirls inherent in using any powered ROS sanders. Believe me there's nothing worse than sanding out a batch of wall panels for a restaurant and seeing after the first few have been stained and shot curly q's popping out everywhere....BTDT:eek:

As far as achieving the 'rubbed out' look this can also be done with Poly. It's a little trickier and has a longer dry time, but it can be a good route for those with no spray equipment.

good luck,
JeffD

[Steve Griffin]

Ah this makes more sense-- I see how Jeff is getting away with 150--block sanding.

I consider 150 block sanding about the same as 220 power sanding (if both are done right).

I only block sand countertops and high end pieces, and use 220 on a foam block. I rarely stain too, but when I do usually block sand as well.

Lots of ways to skin the cat, and finish/type of woodwork make a big difference on the methods used.

[Kent A Bathurst]

When you get past 180, you are starting to burnish the wood [per the published experts I read, and which my anecdotal personal experience seems to confirm]. Which is not a problem, and perhaps a benefit, for things like spraying lacquer - I am completely ignorant on that topic. But - burnishing the wood inhibits dye absorption, and that is my first step on the raw wood.

In fact, to help manage the dye absorption into the end grain [it gets waaay to dark], I hand-sand the end grain with 220 and 320 specifically to moderate the dye absorption.

And - from my experience - the ROS @ 180 doesn't leave swirl marks with my finishing schedule on QSWO, and I have done a lot of those pieces. However - when I do stuff like cherry with shellac finish, I absolutely hand sand for final pass. So I guess my point - if I actually have a point - is that it is not a one-size-fits-all proposition. And, being the huge fan of sanding tasks that I am :mad: I ain't going somewhere I don't need to go.

If it ever comes to where I have to sand all the way through 800, I will just sell my equipment, use the proceeds to buy a gun, and shoot myself. :D :D

[Larry Edgerton]

I hate sanding more!

I will level any joints that are not just perfect with a hand plane, usually a Stanley #62 if needed, or a scraper in an old Starret scraper holder I found. This is important, as if you try to sand these out its too much work, and it will show. A light scraping on a bias, and then to sandpaper.

I start and finish with 220. If I need courser than 220, I figure I screwed up making the parts. My planer, an SCM 520 S does a very fine finish, and has ironically saved me more sanding time than any tool I have. Machine setup and slow feed speeds save a lot of sanding. Final pass on the planer is run a 16fpm, and the shaper is run at the slowest speed I can run and not get too much heat.

Kent, I did a whole office, cabinets, desks and furniture out of Jatoba. I know about tough sanding, and that is the job that made me look at the machining process.

Eight hours sanding one desk top flat! With an air board! There were eight desks! Lost my heiney on that job, but it was the reason I bought the SCM 520, so it worked out in the end.

Larry