About Craft

[Trevor Walsh]

I've written before, and my blog features heavily about my feelings towards craft, particularly the self sufficiency and sense of accomplishment one gets from turning away from the ubiquitous mass-made in favor of making or sourcing crafted furniture, clothes, food etc. I found this article (http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/2011/08/journal-of-modern-craft-article.html) by Robin Wood, a UK pole lather turner and Chair of the Heritage Crafts Association particularly awesome. It's a lengthy read, but worth it I think.

[William Hovis]

Very much worth reading - thanks for sharing that.

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks for pointing out the link. While Robin Wood is perhaps a little more hard core than me, I really share a lot of his sesibilities. As a turner, I've found bowls are what i like to turn best, and I have absolutely no interest in turning non-functional art objects. Nothing against those who do, I'm just asying I can relate to Robin's comments.


http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6090/6094497773_7e3f23278d_b.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5168/5252554450_3dc6e60e79_b.jpg

[Trevor Walsh]

I agree Sean, though my new appartment will have a bedroom converted to a crafts room (Neandering for me and beading/sewing for my girlfriend) and I'm terribly excited to have hardwood floors, be above ground and have a window. What I found interesting about Robin's lifestyle is that it's holistic, he grows his food and altered his consumption to lead a happy life on 20,000 Pounds a year. I'm sure he works more hours than the average 40 (though I'll bet many Americans work 50-60), it's just not all for pay.

That littler red one in the left foreground is really nice, I like the beaded rim and the grain in it. That little spoon it awesome too, I can guess how you did the turning, but what about the bowl? Handcarved or turned sideways?

[Sean Hughto]

That's a scoop. Completely turned and then using a saw to remove part of the bell. This is Raffan style - from his book called something like Turning Projects:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2748/4372529077_301f5a9098_z.jpg?zz=1

I have made carved spoons though, and really enjoy it:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4134/4754828875_17103f8abd_z.jpg

The red bowl is Lychee. A really nice wood, if you ever come across some.

[Chris Griggs]

What I found interesting about Robin's lifestyle is that it's holistic, he grows his food and altered his consumption to lead a happy life on 20,000 Pounds a year. I'm sure he works more hours than the average 40 (though I'll bet many Americans work 50-60), it's just not all for pay.


Thanks for sharing. My fiance are hoping to begin living closer to that lifestyle when we return to your neck of the woods (Philly area) in about 9 months. We were originally planning on returning to be in/near central Philly (where we met), but now we are considering, Bucks County and the Lehigh Valley so we can work towards living a "slower" lifestyle. Still need to find jobs up there though since we aren't ready to completely go the no day job route, so that may ultimately end up dictating where in PA/NJ we will be next year.

Anyway, good article. What I love the most about woodworking is that fact that I get to create things that are both beautiful and functional. Thanks for sharing!

[Gil Knowles]

Trevor
Thank you very much for posting that link.
I read the article and found it fantastic. So much of what people whom worked in crafts is being forgotten. His words and work are very inspiring.
I am in awe of people like Robin with his skills and passion. I had a look at his gallery and the work wow and his prices I thought were low. I have book marked the site and will continue to read his other posts.
Sean
You do wonderful work. I share your belief concerning functional works. When I make something from wood I like to see it being used.
We need more people keeping the old crafts alive.
I know I have not expressed myself well. I am just in awe of the many people on this forum as well as others whom are keeping these skills alive.
Again Thanks.
Gil

[Chris Fournier]

I'll play the Devil's advocate here. First off, $20000 GBP is $34000 USD so don't get too folksy just yet.

Do you really think that self sufficiency and doin' it yourself is a great gig? Well it is if you have time and money on your hands! The car in your avatar affords you a lot of priviledge and you have had nothing to do with that. Now think about how much time you'd have on your hands to make furniture, clothing and sausages if you had to develop your own energy/fuel sources to feed your modern home and transportation needs; eating three times a day is another activity to ponder as you hew wood and draw water...

We get all misty about handtools because they are a singular activity in our modern lives that connects us to the handicrafts. Our work with handtools is like dessert. It is a treat only because modern life affords us the time to pursue this activity.

I have worked on a farm with no electricity and I can assure that once the field work and livestock are tended to and you are fed, woodworking with handtools would be a purely academic discussion - you are in a coma by the time the sun sets.

I made a pole lathe by the way and it was fun, just not fun enough to sell my General 260...

[Trevor Walsh]

Chris Griggs, wonderful! Philly is a good town, though I much prefer the Roxborough/East Falls area, some nice little half timber framed homes there, around where my new place is (though sadly not half timber-framed). Lehigh Valley is really awesome, two of my best friends are from that area. They have some cool little towns Emmaus comes to mind. With good antiquing. Jake's flea market is still a good spot for old tools. I got a rather nice #7 (Jointer plane, Jeff) for $55 there two summers ago. Good luck with the hunt, and keep in touch if you wind up in the area.

I bicycle to work about half the time and the new apartment I'm moving to is even closer to where I work. I eat two meals a day which ties into a whole mess of fundamental problems I see with the "food" most of America is familiar with. I'm not saying I want to shirk all modern conveniences, but I like having a vegetable garden, want egg chickens and to build all my furniture. Someday I hope to be good enough that people will want me to teach them how to build furniture. I have the time to do these things, and rather than spend money on things like TV and FiOS, I woodwork and grow food, yea I have a computer, but that's issued from work.

More what I don't understand is a 1 or more hour commute in an SUV to a far away place to work 50 or so hours a week to pay for a huge house that a three or four person family lives in. Where the kids watch TV or play Xbox or whatever new thing the industry has stuck on the Walmart shelf. I think the constant growth consumerism is the issue, I think by nature of craft work, one becomes more sensitive to this and tries to modify life to deal with that sensitivity. On the issue of time, in the PFW (http://www.philadelphiafurnitureworkshop.com/) class tonight we were cutting in rule joint hinges for a pembroke table, I did mine with a router plane and chisel, the bench neighbor next to me used a trim router and chisel. Who won? It was basically a tie depending on how fussy you went about the chisel clean up. However one method used a "reused" tool, the other a new manufactured product with perhaps a decade long service life that uses consumable resources and didn't save you anything. (Caused a lot of dust to boot.) That said he broke down and started using the eggbeater drill I whipped up with the self centering drill for the hinge screws, and I fudged and grabbed a screw gun to sink the last few screws rather than using the mk1 forearm, so there you go.

Anywho, I hope not to have gotten blathery, I only intended to post the article to the choir.

[Chris Fournier]

I sing in your choir quite often, I just don't sing all the songs all the time!

[Gil Knowles]

Chris
I do not know if you have every been to England and spent time there. I have, was married there, $34,000. is not a big wage. I used to figure what cost 1 $ in Canada was a Pound (do not have a pound sign) in England. That said I have worked on a farm abeit many years ago and yes they were long hours. I stooked hay and walked behind a binder stooking grain and worked thrashing grain. I worked with people that were amazing today what they did in a day. A neighbouring farmer was very mechanically inclined. He could not afford a swather, but he had seen one and thought it was a good idea, so he made one out of used car parts. It did not look pretty but it worked. He is an amazing man with anything mechanical. He is up there in age and still alive, his son is carrying on the tradition. I am getting up in age but can still appreciate what went before me. We have lost something.
Gil

[Chris Fournier]

Chris
I do not know if you have every been to England and spent time there. I have, was married there, $34,000. is not a big wage. I used to figure what cost 1 $ in Canada was a Pound (do not have a pound sign) in England. That said I have worked on a farm abeit many years ago and yes they were long hours. I stooked hay and walked behind a binder stooking grain and worked thrashing grain. I worked with people that were amazing today what they did in a day. A neighbouring farmer was very mechanically inclined. He could not afford a swather, but he had seen one and thought it was a good idea, so he made one out of used car parts. It did not look pretty but it worked. He is an amazing man with anything mechanical. He is up there in age and still alive, his son is carrying on the tradition. I am getting up in age but can still appreciate what went before me. We have lost something.
Gil

Gil, I have spent time in Blighty and yes I was surprised by the cost of living. Filling up the compact rental car with gas made me grateful for my corporate business card. This being said my point was that exchange rates being what they are $20Gs GBP is alot more than $20Gs USD.

Ingenuity is very admirable indeed but folks that cobble together equipment on a shoestring budget with salvaged components rarely have time to do fine woodworking making their own furniture much less rhapsodize about it.

In this modern age, the art of "slow living" is not really a viable alternative lifestyle for that many people. Herded into cities we are now mostly all cogs/chips in the new and improved machine/computer. I agree that we have lost something, I'm not sure that the ingenoius subsistance farmer would necessarily think so however.

[Gil Knowles]

Chris
I apologise. I realize that we can not go back in time. I know many people would not want to go there.
That being said if people would slow down a bit, it would not be bad thing.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
Gil

[Chris Griggs]

Trevor, I will definitely get in touch when the move happens, and or comes closer. We've considered the East Falls also. My fiancee and I both spent two years in Philly teaching in the public schools, and she grew up in Bucks County so we are both (her much more so than I) pretty familiar with Philly and beyond. There's a lot of nice areas (and a lot of great old tools) within 1-2 hours of Philly, that we have thought of, but ultimately jobs will be the deciding factor. We definitely want to live close to where ever we work, as I too bike to work most days and would like to continue being able to do so, so that we can get by on one car.

Chris F, I appreciate your reality check, and mostly agree with you. Your right, there are a lot of people who "slow-living" is not a real option for. And you're even more right that if I I had to wood work by hand to live, you can be darn sure that it very quickly would loose it's status as a fun hobby - there certainly wouldn't be room for my fancy LN/LV tools in that equation.

That said I think all the things Trevor mentioned (biking to work, producing some of ones own food, making some income from woodworking) are viable, and what I like about people like Mr. Wood is that they make me ask myself.... 1) Could/should/would I be happier if I learned to live with less? 2) Could/should I learn to do more for myself?

Anyway, this whole thread has turned to blathery (sorry Trevor), and in posting I've just moved it back up to the top.... Doh!!!

EDIT: And oh yeah. SWEET, bowls and scoops Sean! I must learn to turn someday...

[george wilson]

I,too,had to lead a pioneering life in Alaska for 3 years. We had no electricity or running water for the time we were living in a tarpaper shack in he woods and building our very small house. I had to get up at 5:00 A.M.,go carry 15 gallons of oil up the hill,get water from the stream,and walk 4 miles to school. When I got home,there were several chores that kept me busy until it was too dark to see with Coleman lanterns. When we finally hauled enough wood up the hill to build the house,and got electricity,it was time to dig a 4' deep trench all the way up to the house.4' deep so the pipes would be less likely to freeze. Then,we had to shovel and blast out a road so we could get closer to the house. Still 200 steps to get up to it even then,to carry groceries,etc.. The only rest I got was when I was at school. Then,during study hall,I could at least draw,and in shop began to try to build guitars.

When you lead a primitive life,that's the way it is. Not a lot of energy left to be creative. We needed more kids to help out,but I was the only one old enough to do all these things. That's why they had large families in the old days.

[David Weaver]

George - my relatives grew up the way you did, and while they appreciated craftsmanship (and from time to time would spend money to commission something for their house) and did plenty of self-sufficient things (garden, animals, etc), they didn't have much sentimentality for it - they did it because they had the time and the space to do it and it was cheaper. As technology came along, they appreciated it and took advantage of it. They never accumulated much, and they didn't buy scads of chinese made goods or anything of the sort, but they were as Chris described - worn out at the end of every day and not much for making romantic ideals of the lifestyle that really becomes constant tedium and poverty or semi-poverty.

There are things that will (or may) happen in life (wife, kids, house etc) that make living purely on a set of idealistic ideas....well...idealistic. Providing opportunities for offspring and coming to an agreement about level of income and consumption with the spouse is pretty hard on those ideals.

If I were going to try for the ideals, I would probably go for internining in an artists coop or something else less permanent for a year or two. I'd hate to get 10 or 15 years into something like that, get tired of it, and really be in a squeeze trying to figure out how to get out of it.

[Bill Moser]

Trevor -
Interesting thread,and thanks for the link to Robin Woods' article. Like him (I think) I'm mostly of the opinion that it's better when "functional" and "art" manifest in the same physical entity. My dad likes to sculpt works of "art" in wood and stone. I look at it, and think, "yeah, that's ok, but what can I do with it, how can I fit it into my life on a daily basis?" I have no problem fitting the coffee table I just made into my daily life, my feet are on the stretchers as I write this. And people like it, a lot. Not just because they can put a book or cup upon it, but because it's beautiful. The wood speaks for itself, and the joinery is, in the craftsman style, simple enough to complement it without getting it the way.
I've also thought about the "simpler" lifestyle, and implemented it to a point. I built a house in northern VT which has no mortgage, plumbing, or electricity. It's a refuge, and if need be, I could move up there full-time, hunt and fish, and spend lots of time with hand tools. And I do, for a month or two at a time now and then, but not full-time. City life is pretty interesting too. And besides, ever try to convince a girl that outhouses way better than indoor bathrooms? I think so, but I'm in a tiny, tiny minority :D

[Jack Curtis]

...And besides, ever try to convince a girl that outhouses way better than indoor bathrooms? I think so, but I'm in a tiny, tiny minority :D

You sure are. The number of deaths from black widow spider bites didn't start falling until outhouses started being replaced by indoor toilets. And women have orders of magnitude more chances of getting bitten.

Jack

[Bill Moser]

You sure are. The number of deaths from black widow spider bites didn't start falling until outhouses started being replaced by indoor toilets. And women have orders of magnitude more chances of getting bitten.

Jack

Jack, you are a very sneaky dude. First you say that women are twice as likely to be bitten, and then you edited that to "orders of magnitude". Ha! I have no problem coexisting with my spiders, whatever the species. A quick brush sends them scurrying into the corners for the time I need. That said, my place is in northern VT. In Florida, on the other hand, I have encountered lime-green and fluorescent-orange spiders in porta-pottys which have scared the cr*p out of me. They watch you, climb a little higher to get a better look, and then size you up and decide whether or not to eat you. And they are only about an inch across, including legs. Northern VT does not have anything approaching the insect-scariness of mid Florida. Sorry to derail the thread, but it's really Jack's fault :)

[george wilson]

As well as Alaska,we had an outhouse in Amarillo Texas! I went for several years altogether without an indoor bathroom in all. We also had gils monsters and rattle snakes and tarantulas in Texas. They found a rattle snake inside a pile of lumber I played upon a lot. One time my mother found me playing with a tarantula in the back yard!!

[Jack Curtis]

Jack, you are a very sneaky dude. First you say that women are twice as likely to be bitten, and then you edited that to "orders of magnitude"....

Ah, I first responded immediately, then rethought how many more times women sit on the toilet compared to men, and on it goes.... :)

Jack

[Chris Fournier]

Chris
I apologise. I realize that we can not go back in time. I know many people would not want to go there.
That being said if people would slow down a bit, it would not be bad thing.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
Gil

Apologise for what Gil? Your point is spot on! And I have to say that I could easily utter every word of this last post of yours (which may not cast you in such a fine light...) with conviction. Apology not accepted but point taken! I'm merely 47 years old but I have caught myself hiking up my pants and telling anyone who will lilsten that we could all stand to slow down.

I might add that I haven't found this thread to be "blathery" at all. As the Devil's advocate I played against the "grass is greener" card because I knew it would be fun and draw out some excellent points of view. Personally I engage in a lot of perverse activities because I get huge joy from process and doing it myself. If I crunched the numbers, I couldn't afford to make the cold smoked sausages that I do every fall but everytime I haul them out and cook with them in the dead of winter the honesty of the wood smoke aroma (in my gas fired centrally heated home - sterile) and the taste on my palate tell me that I can't afford not to. Thank god I have no room to grow hemp and make my own clothing...

[Ron Kanter]

I can relate to this thread on many levels:
Self employed for the last 30 years. (Filmmaker not woodworker.) Married to a self employed lady.
Resident of East Falls for the last 16 years (6 blocks from Phila. Furniture Workshop) and life-long Philadelphian.
Well equipped wood shop that I don't spend enough time in.
While I agree with almost everything that has been said, there is one point that hasn't been raised.
That farmer who works so long and hard that he has no time for making things just for the joy of it - would he trade his life for that of some corporate drone or a factory worker? I think not. He has a tough life both physically and financially, but he is in touch with the land. He produces something tangible/edible/valuable with his labor. He won't get rich, but he won't get down sized by some anonymous suit, either.
I know the family farm is not a growth industry, but it has a lot to offer for those who value their independence and the satisfaction of see the fruits of their labor.
Ron
P.S. Happy to hear there are other ww's in the hood.

[David Weaver]

I think most people wouldn't change, regardless of whether it's the white collar person asking if they'd like to trade out to blue collar or the blue collar trading out to white collar. People don't like change, they get fairly comfortable.

I come from a long line of farmers. All of them had to get out. They were either bankrupted and their farms taken away or the ones who were wise enough to see the writing on the wall ahead of time got out and put their farms up to rent and didn't get leveraged trying to keep things going. Unfortunately for the ones who went bankrupt, it occurred late enough in life that they were just stuck looking for a place to live with no money around age 60 or so. The effect is the same as if they were laid off, except their heart was really in what they did and they have no 401k or any other assets safe from creditors.

I think that there are few who can have it simple and not have anything ever blow up on them in life. There's a desire to have safety and control, but those two things never really existed. Having an idea of how things are going to be when you simplify (or in the other direction, for people who "know that they're going to trade up and make it to the top in the rat race") is a good way to get yourself disappointed.

I do know I agree with the comment above that we could all slow down, because it seems like as busy as a lot of us claim to be, we're really busy with things we've gotten ourselves into that aren't really that important in the grand scheme.

Woodworking as a hobby has really taught me in the work environment to try to get things right the first time and focus, and treat my work like craft that I would be proud of - not just do it to get it done.

[george wilson]

I really have seen people live their lives completely out of joint. Becoming craftsmen when they haven't the talent for it. Especially can happen in institutions where you are paid wether you can produce or not.

A Summer job often has become a life long job. Too bad,really. When people get an income and settle into it,they can get stuck for life.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

A Summer job often has become a life long job. Too bad,really. When people get an income and settle into it,they can get stuck for life.

That's one been biting me lately. I'm still young enough to change things, but damn, overcoming inertia can be tough.

[Tom Vanzant]

I retired two years ago after very satisfying careers in two totally different industries. I was one of the lucky ones... I still have my sanity and my health. One of my favorite mandates from a boss and friend, now deceased, is "think smart and work fast, but... don't you make a mistake." At the time, that applied to designing and building high-pressure equipment for use on the ocean floor, but it also applies to woodworking, whether hobby or professional. Be right, but above all else, be careful and be safe.

[george wilson]

Joshua,if you can and really want to,better get on the stick and do what you want to do. Take my word for it,when your years are gone,you can't get them back.

I was lucky to get a position where I could be a craftsman(which is the only thing I am good at!) I have seen others who were terrible craftsmen,and should have been salesmen,or something else.

[Trevor Walsh]

Bill M. I really like the idea of living a "regular" life, then having a place to retreat to.

Ron, Glad to be another ww'er in the hood. I'm just finishing a move to the East Falls train station area so I'm not as close to PFW as I was. Have you taken classes there yet?

George, I see what you are talking about with a person who is or isn't cut out for craftsmanship. My question is, how do you sort that out? For someone who is beginning I would think there is a subtle difference between "I'm not that good yet, but I need some practice" and "I'm not that good, and never will be" How do we know?

[george wilson]

How do we know? That isn't an easy question to answer. I suppose that if a person hasn't been fooling around with bits of junk or things mechanical or liking artistic things from an EARLY age,he might not develop into a good craftsman.

There was a program on T.V. some years ago. They examined the brains of craftsmen and non creative people. The craftsmen had many, many more nerve endings in their brains than those types who had never made anything. It was first thought that these extra nerve endings were developed by learning to do mechanical things,make things,being an artist,etc.. Later on,it was discovered that we are all BORN with these extra nerve endings,and if we do not start using them at an early age,they just go away.

Unfortunately,I have seen quite a few "craftsmen" who started late doing what turned out to be their career,and just never managed to do decent work. They just could not learn to draw well,or design things on their own,etc..

Based on this evidence seen through microscopic examinations of brain tissue,I would have to conclude that we need to start early. We must do SOMETHING to nourish these extra little nerve endings. I guess taking my father's watch apart at age 4 was beneficial after all! He didn't seem to think so at the time!:)

I hope this post hasn't sounded snobbish. It wasn't meant to. It's just the facts. I trained at least 22 people myself in Williamsburg,and many more on my own,and many dozen teaching shop early on. A lot of them just could not make it. They had talents in other directions,like socially,athletically,etc..

It is just sad when people get hooked into doing the thing that is wrong for them,and get trapped by economics, and other issues,and can't get out of it.

I just urge everyone to do their best to figure out what they are GOOD at,and stay with it. Don't get side tracked by that last Summer job,or other circumstances that funnel you into the wrong career. It is too easy to just drift into the wrong path.

[Ed Looney]

How do we know? That isn't an easy question to answer. I suppose that if a person hasn't been fooling around with bits of junk or things mechanical or liking artistic things from an EARLY age,he might not develop into a good craftsman.

There was a program on T.V. some years ago. They examined the brains of craftsmen and non creative people. The craftsmen had many, many more nerve endings in their brains than those types who had never made anything. It was first thought that these extra nerve endings were developed by learning to do mechanical things,make things,being an artist,etc.. Later on,it was discovered that we are all BORN with these extra nerve endings,and if we do not start using them at an early age,they just go away.

Unfortunately,I have seen quite a few "craftsmen" who started late doing what turned out to be their career,and just never managed to do decent work. They just could not learn to draw well,or design things on their own,etc..

Based on this evidence seen through microscopic examinations of brain tissue,I would have to conclude that we need to start early. We must do SOMETHING to nourish these extra little nerve endings. I guess taking my father's watch apart at age 4 was beneficial after all! He didn't seem to think so at the time!:)

I hope this post hasn't sounded snobbish. It wasn't meant to. It's just the facts. I trained at least 22 people myself in Williamsburg,and many more on my own,and many dozen teaching shop early on. A lot of them just could not make it. They had talents in other directions,like socially,athletically,etc..

It is just sad when people get hooked into doing the thing that is wrong for them,and get trapped by economics, and other issues,and can't get out of it.

I just urge everyone to do their best to figure out what they are GOOD at,and stay with it. Don't get side tracked by that last Summer job,or other circumstances that funnel you into the wrong career. It is too easy to just drift into the wrong path.

George

You don't sound snobby at all. In fact the advise you gave is based on wisdom that comes with age and experience. For a younger person that advise should be priceless because the only way they can obtain it other than taking it as a gift from you is to live it and learn it like you did. The only problem is that living it and learning it costs time and that is something no one can buy. I was told that if you can do something you enjoy you will never think of it as a job. Craftsmen get to get up every morning and build things that will be around long after they leave this earth. What a legacy.

Ed

[Bill Moser]

I just urge everyone to do their best to figure out what they are GOOD at,and stay with it. Don't get side tracked by that last Summer job,or other circumstances that funnel you into the wrong career. It is too easy to just drift into the wrong path.

Bad news, guys -- research seems to indicate the people in general tend to overestimate their talent (in any field), and unfortunately, the less talented folks have a greater tendency towards overestimation. This has been labeled the "Dunning-Kruger" effect, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

[Trevor Walsh]

George, not snobby at all, I was reading a similar post on the Wisdom of the Hands blog citing a researcher about child development. It was saying that the ability to pick up manual dexterity and mind-hand linking was best bewteen 7-14 (the ages we used to apprentice, oh really?). After that it's hard to get the mind to work that way. I see this sometimes with students in my model making class, the ones that haven't worked with their hands a lot have trouble getting it, or really being able to "see" 3D in their mind. I think this has a lot to do with canceled shop class and less practical work in school. This isn't stuff that you can learn when you get older.

[george wilson]

Bill Moser: HOW INCREDIBLY TRUE!!!!!!!!!!! I can testify to seeing that in spades a thousand times over. There are so many people like that it is depressing. I think that some of us who have made progress realize that the more you know,the more you realize there is still to learn. There were plenty of ticket punchers at the museum with their noses in the air. And,no ambition at all to take the occasional apprentice position that opened up. They'd rather stand out in all weather year round punching tickets with blank looks on their faces. I asked a few of them why they didn't apply for these jobs. "I don't want the responsibility" was their universal answer. What responsibility???? Yet,many of them somehow thought themselves superior to others.

My first employee in Williamsburg was like that. I didn't know who to hire. Never hired anyone before in 1970. I needed an apprentice badly,being under a deadline to get a complicated harpsichord done. Before I was ever known about by Williamsburg,I had given guitar building lessons to this guy who saw a news paper story about me,and had come to my house begging me to teach him. He left after some months and moved to the midwest. In 3 years time,he had made ONE guitar. It wasn't a very good guitar,either.I was 29 at that time,and had been building for 16 years by then. Long story short,he ended up not doing any work,and told me that he knew as much about guitar making as I did. The boss told me to fire him,but he already quit. Years later,I found out that he had run off to Connecticut and after 1 year,he killed himself because he couldn't make a living making guitars. There is a trick to making a living: YOU HAVE TO WORK AT IT.

[Trevor Walsh]

In all honesty, one reason I love SMC is that I know, for a fact, that when I ask about something or bring up something, George Wilson will have a great/amazing/pointed story about it. Thanks for that George.

What was most interesting to me in that link were the last lines, that East Asian peoples tend to understate their abilities and try to get along with everyone, that they are by nature humble. Whereas Americans have "an overinflated sense of self". I also get that skilled people, down play their skill because they assume that if it's easy for them it would be easy for a lot of other people as well.

[Halgeir Wold]

This is an interesting discussion., - I hope you don't mind me joining in. I've been a member here for a couple of years, and really like this site. I must also admit that I always look specifically for posts of George, Harry Strasil and other "multitasking" members... ;)

I am 58, BSc in electronic instrumentation by profession. I've been quite extensively involved in teaching, among other things teaching younger BSc and MSc students the practical aspects of electronics. To my mind, it is a common problem, not only in university education, but also in general shop and artisan education, that the amount of theory thrown upon students these days have almost obliterated the practical sides of most trade and artisan directions. I frequently meet students, and even people passed their degrees and in job situations in various electronics directions that have hardly touched a soldering iron, some of them more or less truly believe that all jobs can or must be done on the PC!
Strong in theory with good grades, but only a few of them will ever really grasp the more practical aspects of things.

I'm just old enough to have followed the old educational system in Norway, as the "modern ways" were gradually introduced from about the mid 60s over into the 70s. From 4th grade until 7th, we had 1 day of woodworking shop pr week. In the mid 60s , this was were most people ended their formal education, so in the old system there was an extra voluntarely year called "continuance school" ( directly translated), where topics like book keeping and accounting, some more foreign language was tought, but above all, - 1,5 day pr week of wood shop! We made coffe tables, kitchen cabinets, was tought veneering etc. etc. All as a preparation for joining a regular job as a 16 year old, which was still possible in the late 60s. Wood shop was for the boys, of course - althoug it did happen that the odd girl attended the wood shop classes.

I think I'll strongly attest to the importance of starting out early, - 10 years old was about when we had our first shop classes. OTOH, I think I lean more heavily to the toughts that some are born with certain abilities that others don't have. I still remember one of our shop instructors questions " Uhm - where's that frying pan!" when some the boys bent too many nails! In the "modern system" shop is reduced to a measly couple of hours a week, and only for a couple of years in junior high.......

I grew up in northern, rural Norway. My father was a plumber with the Army, and in rural areas people did most jobs themselves. No hiring of painters, bricklayers, carpenters or such, unless the job was particularly difficult. As the elder son, I was the first to have to "join in" in jobs like this, and God did I hate it! :-) But later as an adult, I have fullly realised the value of all this practical training. In 1979, I started our own home, and I was amazed by the number of thumbs some of my new neighbours had! Then I realised that in this area, one of the richest fishing areas of the world, people generally had more money than my parents had, and that hiring of journeymen was all the more common, and alas - no training for the youngsters! I still live in the same neighbourhood, and some of the guys got quite good with time and experience!

Training is all important, but I do think we are born with different abilities, but there must also be an interest for what you want to learn. My fathers brother was an office man all his life - as opposed to my dad, uncle H. could hardly hammer a nail!
I do concider myself a fairly skilled craftsperson, in several aspects, but artistic drawing is one of the things I certainly don't master - they all look like stick men! I did train to be somewhat of a wizard with rulers and compass, though...:rolleyes:.

EDIT : Ouch-- had to edit some typos...

[george wilson]

We are probably born with different inclinations,different innate talents. The microscopic analysis's of the brain did show that if those little extra nerves were not used early,they would just go away,though.

It does take all kinds to make the World go round,though. Maybe it is nature's way of protecting the needs of the whole society. I mean,if you had to rely upon me to be your accountant,you'd be doomed!! We need all types.

[Trevor Walsh]

Of course Halgeir, I don't own the thread I just started writing some, that's all. Nice tip on the other multi-tasking members to look up. One I really like is Rivett608 of "Practical Machinist" (I think you know him George?)

I know what you're talking about in regards to theory vs. practice. When a student comes to me with a file and says "I want to CNC this." I start asking, what size are the interior radii, how close are certain things to another, what clearances do you have, is your material flat and free of defects? Mostly I get a "Uhhhh, Why is this (or that) important?" I have to stop myself from saying things like "What do you mean why is a specific inside radius important, a round cutter has to move in there!?!?" But I calm down and explain, then they get it and start asking what size cutters we have and what cutter would be better for their material.

I really like the idea of continuance school, after graduating from college when I sat down with my first job paperwork trying to figure out all the benefits and retirement account information I felt in way over my head, why don't they have a general studies class on that?

[george wilson]

Yes,Rivett used to hang out in the musical instrument maker's shop for days on end when he was young,and his folks came to Wmsbg. We visited him in Kansas City a few years ago. He has a lot of nice tools he collects. Also,he has done a lot with some museums in the area.

[Trevor Walsh]

I'm a touch envious of his old knurl collection. He has some gems there.

[robin wood]

Hi Folks I am an occasional visitor here but glad that article has provoked thought and debate. I think Chris F raises valid points, total self sufficiency is hard and is near impossible in the Western World. The roads round me are unsafe for a horse and cart for a start, besides I actually like the 21st century. I don't hark back to some mythical idealised time that never really happened I hope we are clever enough to take the best of the present and the best of the past to create a more sustainable and enjoyable future for our kids. When I think back over the most enjoyable experiences of my life they normally revolve around time with friends and family and often did not cost much money so I try to maximise that fun time instead of chasing the money in the hope the fun will follow. £20,000 is about what I earn today, for much of my working life as a craftsperson it has been below £10,000, average UK male wage is apparently £30,000. The point is money is not important and often we can have more fulfilling lives with more time and less money. We do have lower social status because modern society tends to judge those that spend and consume the most as being the most successful.

[Jack Curtis]

Even if this research is ultimately confirmed (remember, brain science is highly elastic), there's nothing that says playing sports is an inferior way to maintain those "extra" nerve endings that could be used for other hand/eye/brain coordination tasks, like woodworking or drawing/painting. Fact is that very few people know what they want to do forever at the age of 2 or 3, and they certainly don't know what they're also good at, the learning of which is very definitely a part of growing up. So, about the best we can do is encourage children to exercise those nerve endings in many ways, not try to pick their ultimate careers.

Jack

[george wilson]

I have no idea about sports and the brain,but in sports you do have to develop quick eye hand coordination,so it could be good for those little nerves. But,you must also add the development of very fine,small motion motor skills,and the ability to sit still for long periods of time,hunched over small work(ruining your neck!!),concentrating for hours on end,and mulling over minute details that 99.999% of the population wouldn't even notice or care about!!:) And,I'm not having any wife that says "nice,dear",with hardly a look when I'm done with something that took a LOT of trouble to do!!:)

Trevor,I have had those knurls in my hand. He is never going to use them for fear of damaging them! The real fancy ones were only ever intended for brass,gold,or silver. I'd use them if I had them,on those metals. IIRC,some of them must be "mother knurls",for making other knurls,though. My memory may be wrong,but I think some of them were convex,and would produce a concave knurl. Therefore,you'd have to make the opposite knurl from them to produce a convex knurl. Thus,you'd HAVE to run them against steel at least once,or possibly against wrought iron(which would then be case hardened very deeply.)

I have examined some 18th.C. knurls that may have been made of wrought iron,and hardened. They were too expensive,but mostly,some were damaged by rust,so I turned them down.

[Trevor Walsh]

Do you know off hand how a deeply case hardened tool would compare to a high carbon steel or O1 in practice, would they still be limited to the soft metals? Would a "production" tool for steel pattern knurling just have a short life, or would that type of pattern in steel not normally be used?

[george wilson]

regardless of how deep the case hardening is,01 would still be a better metal because it has some other alloys in it that increase durability some. 01 is still a fairly simple steel,though,and A2 would be better in the long run,and HSS best of all. They are more difficult to harden correctly,however. I use A2 for all my wife's tooling because it will last a lot longer than 01. I haven't messed with hardening HSS PROPERLY. But,I have gotten some excellent results from making things like engraving chisels from it. I just get it ONLY dark red hot,and hammer it down to the tapered shape I want,letting it air cool as I hammer. It decarbs on the surface,which is o.k. for THIS particular use,because I can grind the soft skin off and shape the chisel the way I need by grinding.The result I get from doing this with some M33 bars I bought makes a very tough,and hard chisel that stays sharp a long time even when cutting steel. This is NOT the manufacturer's recommended way of hardening it,as I said. It really needs to be hardened at a very high temp. in an inert gas oven.

A2 I can deal with just fine by wrapping the part in high temp. stainless steel wrap,and putting just a little piece of brown paper inside the wrap to burn up the oxygen in it. Too much paper,and the wrap will burst and ruin the tool.