Shop Equipment Compromises

[Regis Galbach]

After nearly 30 years break I'm slowly equiping my small shop. I had a stairway project that I had to go buy a chop saw and table saw. That inspired me to go back to the woodworking that I loved many years ago. So, I've converted garage storage space into a shop. The table saw was inexpensive PC contractor saw. But it allowed me some space and funds to search for a small jointer. Well, I quickly learned that the saw would not do as well as I wanted. So, I returned & exchanged it a Lowes for a PCB270TS. It's not the $1500+ TS that I wish I had space & funds for but, it is a big step above the little folding one. But I decided I needed the stability and little better accuracy (cast iron table not aluminum). That decision has pushed me to probably go table top for a jointer. I am trying to move things around that maybe I can put small jointer/planer on wheels because I'm still trying to arrange the room. I still think the decision to go a bit better on the saw was important move. Now to unbox, assemble, and tune it. Today's project. I have read mostly good about this saw and I have a lot more confidence building jigs to run in the cast iron guides that are wider apart.

What kinds of compromise have you had to make to get your shop operating?

Sure have enjoying reading here and maybe will have something to show in a few months.


Regis

[Mark Ashmeade]

I compromised by not buying everything I wanted when I wanted it. I studied the market for each tool, decided where I could be happy with an "it'll do" model, and where I thought I'd regret that. In some cases I bought an "it'll do" so that I could get going with the standard machines (table saw, jointer, planer, bandsaw, drill press).

In every case, I compromised by not paying full sticker price. I waited until there were sales or promotions, and bought then. In the last year or so, I've been clearing out the "it'll do" models, and upgrading, but buying used. I initially ran scared of used, but my shop sure does look better than it did a year ago.

The other thing I've done is built up a "slush fund". It's a tin full of $20s, that I keep on hand, so if the deal I'm looking for shows up, I can jump on it. Right now I'm looking for a drill press with fixed table and moving head. There aren't many of those, so I'll compromise in the meantime with my $150 Ridgid. When the time comes, I am sure I can get out of my Ridgid for what I paid, maybe a tad more.

The other compromise of course is lugging all this heavy stuff up and down to/from my basement shop. But that's just effort.

[Jim Matthews]

Consider a 14" bandsaw for your shop. It can do a remarkable number of things, and well, in a small space.
Good quality second hand bandsaws are regular Craigslist offerings.

For example - this JET (http://nashville.craigslist.org/tls/2609290826.html) near your door.

[Rich Engelhardt]

What kinds of compromise have you had to make to get your shop operating?


#1 - by a long shot is/was having to go with new equipment vs buying solid old/used machines.

Sure, it's super easy for someone that's got a very good working knowledge of tools and knows what to look for to say "buy used". The reality of it though for those of us that don't know good from bad - or even begin to know where to look for what - is that used = a bad, bad, bad idea.

Sorry - but used equipment isn't the bargin it's portrayed to be. It's a money pit that has no bottom.

[Mark Ashmeade]

I get what you're saying Rich, but buying used is a compromise in itself. I'd much rather have had the used machines from new. But then there's no way I'd have been able to justify the expenditure. One of the primary aims when I buy a tool, new or used, is to have it owing me the right money to begin with. I'd consider a $3000 cabinet saw, as I'll get 30 years out of it, and my kids another 30, but if I can get the previous model used for $600, that seems like a deal to me. Even if it needs $200 in parts to bring it back to as-new condition (which it may not). I certainly wouldn't put $3000 in a new jointer though.

What I've found with most American tool designs is that they are mostly very simple. A motor, a couple bearings, a rotating cutter, belts, and maybe an adjustment mechanism. Not much to go wrong in the first place. Each to their own though. I'm finding as much enjoyment out of saving money and knowing my used tools inside out as I do actually using them, to be honest. Double happiness!

[Myk Rian]

Sorry - but used equipment isn't the bargin it's portrayed to be. It's a money pit that has no bottom.
If you have mechanical ability, used/vintage is a good deal.

Delta floor drill press. $150 + $75 parts and paint. Replaced Delta DP350 bench model.
JD Wallace 8" jointer. $75 + $125 parts and paint. Replaced Grizzly 8" jointer.
Delta scroll saw w/lamp. $115 + $10 paint. Replaced Delta 16".
Delta 14" M/W band saw. Free + $75 parts and paint. Replaced newer Delta 14".

I bought my table saw new. Steel City hybrid. $800
New DeWalt DW735 planer. $600 w/tables + Byrd head $400
Ridgid spindle/belt sander. $200 new.
HF 2hp dust collector. New $140 + $40 1 micron bag.

If I had started restoring machines earlier, I would have saved myself a lot of money on the ones I replaced.

[Regis Galbach]

What I failed to mention is that I had some tools already. Good drill press. A bandsaw and scrollsaw that I'll eventually upgrade. The big hole is jointer/planer. And size of everything is big issue in very small shop.

[Myk Rian]

The big hole is jointer/planer. And size of everything is big issue in very small shop.
Which is why I got the Wallace jointer. It replaced the Grizzly long bed.
The planer and sander are on a flip-top table. Everything is on wheels.

[Peter Quinn]

Sorry - but used equipment isn't the bargin it's portrayed to be. It's a money pit that has no bottom.

I feel differently, and my experience has been positive in the used market. I find buying used to be a crap shoot with slightly better odds. In my particular case I've never lost buying used, but I wouldn't suggest that is not largely due to luck. I've bought some used tools at online auctions sight unseen, turned out to be in fine working order and have served me well at a fraction of the cost of new. No hassles. Other factors to consider? This lingering recession has been terrible for many, bad for the nation's moral, but great for my tool collection! Bandsaw, power feed, shaper, all bought used, or technically not new, but pretty much unused and for sale relatively inexpensive. Well, the bandsaw was really a trade deal that was pretty fair for all parties. Still, I got great machines at a price I could afford to pay, no warranties but no problems either. I'd rather have a 10 year old Italian bandsaw built like a tank than a brand new asian import that comes with a guarantee that that when my particular unit arrives wrecked, they will quickly send me the parts to fix it myself!

Another consideration is that most machines arrive "some assembly and adjustment required". You will have to put many machines together, you will have to completely adjust the new machines, you will have to break them in and then readjust them in many case, often soften some sharp edges or adjust some stretched belts or chains. So new or used, the onus is on the user to understand all adjustments and make them accurately for proper performance. You must get to know your tools intimately, and there isn't much avoiding that compromise short of getting the "white glove" set up available from some of the Euro imports. But you still need to learn the machines you use to keep them running well over time. But once a tool reaches a certain age, and all support has dropped off, parts are no longer available from any standard source, then used becomes a restoration effort, and this can be a real problem for those not equipped or prepared to deal with obsolete or antique machine maintenance. And that can get expensive when parts must be custom made at a machine shop as needed. So be wary of that.

My main compromise? I wanted a Felder 5 machine combo with slot mortiser about 7 years ago. They were about $21K. I thought that was far too much to spend, but if I had, even if I had financed some, it would be paid off now and probably would have cost me less than I have subsequently paid for all the machines currently in use in my shop plus those intermediate machines I bough and sold at a loss to get to the next level. But in the end I have a working shop I'm happy with and am now mostly concerned with making things, not so much with machine acquisition anymore.

[Rich Engelhardt]

While I agree used can be a way to save money, that's not always the case for someone that doesn't know what to look for and what to avoid.
Then there's the issue of timing. W/new, I simply go tp the store or order it. W/used, you have to be in the right place at the right time. CL is a good example. Prior to retiring, I worked between 40 and 100 hours a week - 99% of which was out of touch with the internet/CL. There may have been all kinds of fabulous deals that were listed - but - if you're not able to take advantage of them, they are useless.

Then there's the issue of transport to consider. I found a good deal on a Ridgid 6" jointer. The problem was, it was located 200 miles away & I had no way to transport it. The seller really didn't want to hang onto it for 18 months so I could buy my van. Coordinating w/a co-worker that had a pickup truck proved equally futile. Days I was off, he was on. Days he was off, I was on. Plus - the cost of gas & the steak dinner I'd have treated him to for helping me pick it up had to be figured in.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking used.
However - it's not the end all answer to everything.

Plus - for some strange reason I can't figure out. People here in NE Ohio seem to feel that whatever they own goes up in value the more beat up and neglected it is.
I'll be extremely generous and say that 90% (it could be higher) of the tools offered here on CL are only worth their value as scrap.
That doesn't stop the seller from asking above retail for the item.

Here's an excellent example:
http://akroncanton.craigslist.org/tls/2583639859.html

I have that exact same Ryobi miter saw. The seller is asking $145.00 for it. HD runs it on sale on a regular basis for $99.00. I paid $59.00 for mine on a BF sale.
What say, is that a good deal? Is that any way to save money?

Edit to add - after my morning ritual look at CL...

I found a couple other used *gems*.
A $275 used Enco 6" jointer. Whatta bargin... they only sold for like $315 brand new and from what I could tell looking online, the Enco 6" jointer is on a par with the Central Machinery 6" jointer.
A discontinued Makita 10" SCMS for the mind numbing price of $500. Never mind that a reconditioned one can be had for $419....

[glenn bradley]

I (re) started with a used Craftsman/Emerson contractor saw and a Craftsman bandsaw. Like you I did not know if this thing was going to stick and so started on the cheap. This was more of a plan or a test than a concession. Following this I did buy a small jointer and immediately regretted it. I shelved it within a short period of buying it and was later able to sell it at not too much below 60% of what I paid. While I saved my pennies for a more suitable jointer, I used this (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?58735-Planer-Sled-2.0). I was able to joint wider stock and with a good blade and careful setup I could edge joint on the tablesaw. Following this experience and confident that the bug had bitten deep, I steered away from "just or now" purchases unless absolutely unavoidable. the result has been a slower gathering of goodies but, a stable of tools that for the most part will outlive me.

P.s. I goofed on the drill press (a great sale at Lowe's lured me into bad judgement) but after a year of fooling around have made it quite usable. I'd rather have spent a little more and had that year back ;-)

[Darrin Vanden Bosch]

When I started out all I had was my dads RAS, early 60s edition, not something I really liked ripping wood on. When I restarted woodworking all I had was a craftsmen TS with the flex drive and then got a 50 years old 12" craftsmen BS and various routers. Well the bandsaw just needs some repair (needs a keyway for the drive arbor) but I have a newer delta 18". The tablesaw is still going stong, underpowered but.... I know I've gotten my moneys worth out of it and I keep looking at actual cabinet saws to purchase sooner or later, but this cheap little craftsmen is only 24 years old. If it ain't broke don't replace it.;)
Darrin

[Mark Ashmeade]

I found a couple other used *gems*.
A $275 used Enco 6" jointer. Whatta bargin... they only sold for like $315 brand new and from what I could tell looking online, the Enco 6" jointer is on a par with the Central Machinery 6" jointer.
A discontinued Makita 10" SCMS for the mind numbing price of $500. Never mind that a reconditioned one can be had for $419....

And those would be the ones to laugh at.

After looking at my local CL this morning, there's a 12" jointer for $750, a Unisaw for $299, and several PM66's under a grand.

[Rich Engelhardt]

And those would be the ones to laugh at.

Except for the fact that those are typical of most of the CL posts around my parts, I'd agree w/you.

General concensus is that for used, between 50 and 75% of the going price of the item is a fair starting point, depending on the product and the condition.

When people typically ask retail - or above - for a beat up used item, that doesn't leave any wriggle room at all.

Here's another:
http://akroncanton.craigslist.org/tls/2608969706.html

At first glance, this appears to have some possibilites.
A huge red flag ( to me anyhow) would be that these items have been listed for going on three weeks & the post is tagged "need some TLC" and the prices are the same.

I'm sorry but -$500 for a used 14" Delta is going to lose out to $425 for a new Grizzly any day of the week.
Even if the money was the same (which is really is anyhow considering the shipping), the Griz still has the warranty & customer service advantage.


& FWIW - since I've been looking for a used 14" bandsaw now for going on 18 months - this has been one of the few almost viable offerings that I've seen.

[Paul McGaha]

I dont think I've made too many concessions in equiping my shop. I am lucky, as I guess a lot of creekers are, in that my wife is supportive of my woodworking hobby and is ok with me funding the hobby (to a certain point).

I would say though that I've made my share of mistakes with the purchases. For example starting out with a 6" jointer when an 8" is so much better in regards to the length of a piece of stock it can really handle well. I think as Glenn points out that some of these purchases were made when I didnt really know if the hobby was going to work out and was only willing to spend up to a certain point so maybe buying too small of a tool is kind of expected for a guy thats new to the hobby.

As I've gotten more experienced, I think if I had to do it again, I could buy the tools much smarter, and probably with no do-overs.

I think buying used is the best bang for the buck. The last 2 stationary tools I've purchased actually came from creekers. A Delta 3 HP Shaper and a Delta 16/32 Sander. They are both US made, had been used very little, and were fairly priced (about 50% of new). There was also some expense to go and get them, The Shaper came from South Carolina and the Sander came from Kentucky. One of my sons went with me to get the Shaper and my wife went with me to get the Sander, so, a couple of fun road trips, and got to meet a couple of creekers.

I live in Ashburn, VA which is a suberb of Washington DC. It seems our craigslist has a lot of good tool buys in it pretty much routinely. I think you could probably equip a shop from craigslist around here in 1 year or less. Some of the ads are just what you want (known good tools, lightly used, fairly priced) and there are some other ads that frankly I dont understand the pricing at all, and really is no point in contacting the seller. I've never purchased a tool from craigslist. Sold a couple that way though.

Good luck with it.

PHM

[johnny means]

I think used needs to be better defined. Vintage car buffs don't shop "Used" car lots, they look through salvage yards. Likewise, I don't consider a project machine to ber the same as a used machine. I think a lot of guys get so caught up in the idea of buying larger, heavier machines that they minimize the downside and underestimate the unseen cost and effort needed to have a usable machine. I'm no car expert, but I was able to pick out a good reliable used truck when I needed one. I knew that a mid 80s Ford wasn't the truck for me (though they are my faves), because I needed a truck to work in and not work on. You don't need to be an expert to know a junk machine when you see it.

Without a doubt the most inexpensive way to grow a shop is with used machines. This will require some patience, though. Hence, the "money pit" situation. But, if your patient and vigilant it can happen.

[Dennis Ford]

Mostly, I compromised by giving up time to save money. A couple of my tools are home-made, they are not as nice as the best available but are much nicer than what I could have purchased with the same budget. My table saw was very old when I got it, it is not nearly as user friendly as I would like but it is very sturdy and accurate.

Lots of people have commented on used vs. new.
My take on that is;
* Used consumer grade equipment is rarely worth bringing home unless it is free and needs no repair
* Used commercial equipment can save money IF you have the time and skills to repair it. It will cost more than new if you have to pay someone else to do the repairs.
* Used industrial equipment will be expensive (in time and money) to repair but will be almost bullet proof for a lifetime.

[Mats Bengtsson]

Mostly, I compromised by giving up time to save money...

+1 on that. The other major compromise is I go for smaller and lighter things to save space and keep equipment movable.

--- Mats ---

[Andrew Joiner]

What is the definition of a compromise on a tool or machine ? Does it mean less than the highest quality available?

When I was in woodworking as a business, I would equip the shop with the lowest cost stuff that got the job done right. I bought 40% new, 60% used machines from 1970 to 1980.

Now that I'm retired, I'm in it for fun not profit. I can afford the most expensive machines,but I still have trouble letting go of my old frugal ways.

I built a vertical panel saw for $150. It saws as accurate as the Safety Speed cut I had as a pro.
I use sleds to edge and flatten rough lumber. I delight in the fact that it turns my basic Ryobi planer into a power feed jointer.
I have a Shop Fox cabinet saw that I paid $900 for brand new in 2005. It cuts as nice as the Powermatic 66 I had as a pro.
I have 3 routers now. I had 11 as a pro.
I gave in to a bit of tool lust and bought a 21" Grizzly bandsaw. It cuts fine, just like my 1940 Delta with a riser block. The Grizzly will resaw a full 14" the old Delta would struggle to resaw a full 12". Overall 99% of my work would turn out fine with old" compromised" Delta.

My point is, with my " compromised " hobby shop I turn out as good or better quality work as I did when I was a pro. Also I had fun building the panel saw and sleds.

[Timothy Wolf]

I've been able to put together a fairly decent shop in only 11 months, I have bought several tools on craigslist, decided it wasn't what I needed or wanted and resold tools mostly for a profit. Sometimes I bought the tools just to resell them because I knew I could make a profit, I have paid back all of my initial investment and added a nice starter shop for only about $200 more out of pocket. But it took a lot of time on craigslist and a willingness to drive a few hundred miles for the right deal.

[David Kumm]

There is a learning curve to buying used but learning the curve allows you to equip a shop with few real compromises. The Craftsman, unisaw, PM 66 type equipment is valued by a much larger group than the Delta 12-14, PM 72, etc. Oliver has a cult following but still can be had if you are patient. You first must learn about 3 phase power, RPC or at least vfds. That is not all that expensive and puts you in a much less congested market. A pallet jack and a good trailer gives you an even better advantage. Even in the smaller machine there are bargains. A delta dc 33 planer is less loved than a PM 100 or General 130 and can be had pretty cheap. At least as well built as the current models and often single phase. PM 180, or 221 are often the same price as new 15" and even if old much stronger. You need to learn to listen to bearings and motor and look things over . I generally don't look for rebuild projects as the price of plug and play is still way below current prices, particularly in this economy. I have found that talking to the seller helps with the warm fuzzies a lot. Many of them are pretty anal guys who want there stuff to go to a good home. They understand crating and palletizing and protecting their stuff from shippers. If you don't feel good about the seller the machine is unlikely to be a deal no matter how cheap. The used route becomes a hobby of its own- most of the OWWM guys do more machine than wood work. I enjoy both but have found that I like the woodworking even more using machines that cost 15-20,000 new and 2-3,000 used. Not for everyone. Dave

[Steven Wayne]

I have been buying and selling tools for about three years slowly getting my shop where I would like it to be. I have found that I often have a "three step" process when it comes to adding something new to the shop. This is especially true with my metal lathe and milling machine. I bought my first milling machine, a barely used HF bench-top mill-drill for $1000. It included a LOT of good quality tooling. A year later I bought a lightly used Grizzly vertical knee mill, again with a lot of good tooling, for $1000. I then sold the HF unit for $1200 with zero tooling. This year I bought a very good condition, American made full size milling machine with no tooling for $2000. I sold my Grizzly for $3000. At the end of the process, I have moved some very heavy machines and I have an awesome, very nice machine with most of the tooling the home hobbyist wants and I haven't spent much out of pocket. I bought a VFD to run the new machine and some other things along the way.

This buy, upgrade, sell, etc process has been the case in several cases in my shop. When I want to add a new tool/capability, I do my best to buy a well equipped tool at a good price. Then I can use it in the comfort of my own shop and learn what I want out of a machine. I am very patient when it comes to selling. I take the time to clean things up and make sure they are presentable, in good repair and fully functioning when I sell. In the case of those milling machines above, I did a lot of cleaning and adjusting to the HF and Grizzly while I had them. They left in better shape than they arrived. Becoming knowledgeable of the tool helps when it comes time to sell.

I don't have a lot of brand new tools in my shop. I do have a lot of almost new tools in my shop that I bought for a fraction of new price. I paid $400 for a 8 year old Delta DJ-20 8" jointer with a mobile base and two sets of new blades. Previous owner barely used it. I bought a $8 spring that was missing from the cutter guard.

Anyway, I think there is a lot to be gained from buying what you can afford and what is available when you are looking. Be patient for good deals, use the tool while you have it.

I agree with David that used tools become a hobby of its own. I really enjoy "tool hounding".

[Kirk Poore]

I compromised by:

1. Starting small--with a bare minimum of tools (hand & machine), adding as I gained experience and knew what I actually needed (or was really, really tired of doing without).

2. Using dimensioned lumber, until I could affort a lunchbox planer.

3. Using hand tools a lot, until my volumn of work demanded buying power tools instead.

4. Mostly buying used and then upgrading to better used machines.

Used tools:
Used tools are something of a risk, but with a little investment of time in front of the computer you can educate yourself enough to minimize that risk. But you also have to have the right inclinations. I didn't like it at first, but I've come to enjoy rebuilding WW machines. On the other hand, I hate working on my cars. WW machines are much simpler, smaller, cleaner, and rarely require contortions to work on them. If you are mechanically inclined, used machines can be tremendous money savers. If you don't want to work on machines to get them going, buy new or slightly used. But I'd also say compromise and try it once. They usually aren't hard to clean up, change the bearings, reassemble, and then run.

Finding them? Craigslist, fleabay, newspaper ads, online forum sales pages. Doesn't mean you'll be successful, but if you have an open mind (a Delta or Powermatic or General bandsaw, not just a Delta) it's a lot easier now. Back in the mid 90's I watched the newspaper (then, the only source other than word of mouth) like a hawk, and never could find a Delta 14" BS for sale, so I wound up buying a new Jet. Now, Delta's show up on CL every other week, and PM's show up once each month or two, and of course they're on ebay all the time.

Kirk