Steff feeders

[David Kumm]

Does anyone know if Steff feeders are still made entirely in Italy. Their website seems to imply it but I have heard repeatedly that some of the castings and pipes are sourced in China. They are priced closely to the Comatics. Any knowledge is helpful. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

Where are you finding a Steff close in price to a commatic of equal size. Not sure if you have ever used a commatic but its castings would NEVER be an issue on a 1hp feeder machine LOL.

[David Kumm]

Mike, Factorynew lists them within about $50 of the others. I have had problems with the the asian feeders not locking down tightly due to the machining of the castings and pipe. I thought I was alone but have heard similar stories from others over the years. The Steff and univer feeders have always been a step above. I have heard recently that steff isn't all made in Italy and just trying to find out the real story. I have heard both ways. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Have you tried sending them an email? I wouldn't believe or not anything I had heard unless it came from somebody reasonably likely to know the truth. I figure a rep at steff is most likely to know where their parts are sourced or made. I see no clear indication of country of origin on their site.

I have one of each, one steff 2044 and a three wheel comatic from Grizzly (grizzly label). I am certain the griz is a comatic because I got a different gear set for it from a comatic dealer and had to verify its origins at that time. Comatic makes feeders for numerous manufacturers.

Differences? The hand wheels on the my griz are either plastic or much cheaper metal, the steff has fine solid castings on every hand wheel. Tires? The griz has some cheap hard rubber that easily glazes and looses its grab, requires regular maintenance, the steff has polyurathane that grabs everything and never lets go, but that is more a function of price point and spec than quality. I use a bunch of steff feeders at work that are decades old, and the ones with rubber wheels have the same issues with glazing. ALL the pipes, castings, gears, locking mechanisms, etc. on BOTH are very well made and have functioned flawlessly for me. Frankly I see little difference in those areas. The motor is another issue. I have had the motor on the comatic actually overload and stop during what I consider a reasonable production run of a molding. I have never had a steff feeder over heat under any conditions, and I have beat a few of them hard.

Price? I' think the price difference when I bought the Grizzly was around $375-$400, not just a couple of bucks. So I'm happy with the comatic for the money, I'd guess comatic makes feeders at different specification levels? I think steff makes only one build quality.

[Peter Kelly]

Not sure about Steff these days but Univer feeders still 100% Italian made. http://www.martin-usa.com/cms/_main/univerpertici.html#c4931

Have an older Maggi/Steff feeder and I like it a lot. Sad to hear about Chinese parts on the new ones.

[David Kumm]

Peter. This question came about because I was asked to recommend a feeder. I have a 10+ year old Felder-made by Steff, Steff, and Comatic. The comatic has two bases, neither of which tighten the pipe down completely, a problem I have heard from others. Before I gave a knee jerk recommendation based on ten year old equipment I wanted to check that the manufacturing hasn't changed. I have been told it has and the price differential or lack of same surprised me. I have heard that the Italians have been more aggressively using Chinese parts and electricals in their machinery so I hoped someone might have real info. I will keep trying to verify. It is difficult to base decisions anymore on the past as machines change quickly. Dave

[David Kumm]

Peter, the jury is still out as to the source of parts. Don't want to start misinformation yet. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

David, understood and I agree. My steff feeder is new old stock. I bought from a guy that had had it over 7 years but never used it once due to an unfortunate stroke. The univer add claims to be the LAST power feed made in Europe, so that would be an indication of the direction steff is headed, but I too would like to know what their status is presently. I have had issues with steff feeders not wanting to tighten the central post over time as well which led to over tightening and eventual breakage of then locking screws.. A new screw and a slight shim seemed to solve the problem, hard use was likely the cause. The part that would scare me the most being outsourced is the motor.

[ian maybury]

On one person getting a good example of a particular make of feeder: it's not necessarily confirmation that all units coming from that maker are good.

Some cheaply/carelessly made stuff is wrong all the time, but manufacturing tolerance/quality issues are often a result of inconsistency/scatter (i.e. poor process control/unreliable processes) rather than this. With the result that some of the output may be good.

You can be fairly sure for example that the samples provided to the buyer and going to shows are probably OK.....

As ever it all raises the question of where the threshold of acceptability lies. (for me = not so frequent use, but capable of accurate professional quality work) I'm watching with interest as I have a Hammer F3 shaper which is about to be fired up, and have been thinking that a feeder may be advisable. It'd be nice to be able to feed when ripping on the band saw too, although that will probably need a different unit.

ian

[David Kumm]

Ian and Peter, I'm sure the motor and electricals are still Italian. The last feeder I bought was a "green" steff used and it was tight as well. Univer are pretty hard to find used. Seems like you have to find them on a machine. Old holzher,elu, and other euro feeders of the past were very good as well. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

Very PC thread. My non representative example of a Commatic feeder works perfect. Consider this an "other" that has a perfect working one.

[David Kumm]

Mike, I did not start this to diss comatic. I expect most are fine. Asian parts are showing up in Euro stuff more frequently and while that isn't necessarily the end of the world, I like to know what I'm getting. I don't believe other countries have the stringent laws we do in defining where something is made. Here you can't put " Made in America" on a flashlight if the bulb is foreign- even if no USA bulbs are made. A big shaper is dangerous enough, particularly when spinning large profiles and a feeder is a huge safety device as well as insuring quality cuts. The years have made me more fussy about how they work and really careful when I recommend one. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

David, I noticed on the Steff web page there is a banner at the top that says "100% made in ITALY since 1963", which is a pretty bold statement. Of course if their laws regarding Made in Country X are similar to ours, that could mean something more like assembled in Italy from parts we sourced from where ever we chose. Made in USA certainly has a fuzzy definition.

[David Kumm]

Peter, except in California where my flashlight example came from. I am curious enough about the claims of Steff and Univer to keep looking for answers. At the end of the day it might not matter to anyone but me. i don't always buy the best of something but I like to know what makes it better to decide whether it is worth it or more often if it is worth looking for used. My best stuff are top end used. Some of my machines are 75 years old and still the pick of the litter. Dave

[Peter Kelly]

David, I noticed on the Steff web page there is a banner at the top that says "100% made in ITALY since 1963", which is a pretty bold statement. Of course if their laws regarding Made in Country X are similar to ours, that could mean something more like assembled in Italy from parts we sourced from where ever we chose. Made in USA certainly has a fuzzy definition.

Odd that the Martin web page would announce that Univer feeders are the last European made ones left on the market if that's what Maggi is claiming...

[Peter Quinn]

Odd that the Martin web page would announce that Univer feeders are the last European made ones left on the market if that's what Maggi is claiming...

Its all very suspicious. Is one of them lying? Are they both telling the truth such as the legal definitions allow? To me 100% made by me regarding the product I make would mean I bought plywood, screws, glue, etc, from quality sources I trusted, but not that I necessarily "made" each of these items myself. But if I claimed 100% made in the USA, that would to me indicate that each of the components I used were also made here, and not just that I assemble a cabinet in the USA from Chilean plywood, Chinese screws and glue made in Mexico. But lawyers, marketing types and many business work with lobbyists to ensure that the laws allow them to enjoy the cache of claiming a product is "Made in X" for the purposes of keeping the sale price high without actually facing the financial burden of meeting a more rigorous definition of the term. In this global economy it would not necessarily be in the best interests of every business to use only inputs from their country of origin.

I guess ultimately the picture is constantly changing. I have bought some pretty fine products made in Asia, I have bough some pretty bad junk made right here in the good old USA. At this point I try to buy things which are well made and offer a good value, but it not easy to determine which indicators of quality are reliable and which aren't. Price point? Country of origin? Reputable vendor? Close personal inspection? My most valuable queues often come from this forum in the form of personal recommendations based on actual user experience. That is how I wound up finding the creek in the first place, searching for info on slot moritsers....

[David Kumm]

The problem is not that the Chinese, or anyone else for that matter, can't make quality stuff, but rather that companies outsource to them at a price point. The Chinese in my example are going to try to make the most profit they can as well so it really comes down to how well the company maintains quality control and hands on supervision to insure the specs are met. Too often that quality control is spotty or ineffective. Much of the world still operates under " let the buyer beware" and believes that maintaining quality is up to the buyer rather than the producer. Until a company proves that it still produces the same quality as when they controlled the manufacturing themselves I will be careful in purchasing their stuff. Doing something yourself and supervising someone else are different skill sets. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

Slippery slope. Your made in USA screws might be made with equipment sourced by another country and metal from another.

How about you write the review on the feeder and its usage and leave the country of origin out of the review. Write it for what it is. We are not always expected to be "antique road show" quality reviewers. Sometimes you just want to know if a product works or not. Just my opinion.

You can dis asian parts/tools all you want. I have the world covered in my shop. The riff raff does not last there. I am my own worst critic.

[David Kumm]

Mike, Again I am not dissing anyone. I just wanted to know the facts concerning the origin of Steff feeders as there seems to be misleading info. As I stated previously it is the ability of a company to maintain quality control over its manufacturing that is most important. Many things are not outsourced to improve quality but rather to save money. That means the company is responsible for reviewing the work of the sub. If you read many of the posts here you realize that product inconsistency is a big problem. It is impossible to review inconsistent products because the information only relates to the one item tested. That is a particular problem with feeders as a bad fit between the base and the pipe happens periodically. If it happens to you it occurs 100% of the time. I am not blaming companies either. The addiction to low prices and acceptance of inconsistency is consumer driven. While country of origin doesn't necessarily mean good or bad it is often the only info available. Try to get bearing specs or manufacturing tolerences out of companies literature. Not going to happen. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Slippery slope. Your made in USA screws might be made with equipment sourced by another country and metal from another. How about you write the review on the feeder and its usage and leave the country of origin out of the review. Write it for what it is. We are not always expected to be "antique road show" quality reviewers. Sometimes you just want to know if a product works or not. Just my opinion.You can dis asian parts/tools all you want. I have the world covered in my shop. The riff raff does not last there. I am my own worst critic.Seems to me the original issue was is Steff using components outsourced from Asia. If they are, does it make sense to pay a premium price for a Steff versus a Comatic? IME steff is charging more for a similarly equipped feeder than Comatic, and to justify that purchase one would have to attach some value to the quality of goods made in Italy. If the goods are no longer made in Italy, what is their present value, and is that reflected in the purchase price. The italian machine manufacturing sector has worked long and hard to distinguish their goods as a premium product, if they have begun outsourcing manufacturing is their reputation justified presently? The real initial question has not been answered at all, does steff actually use offshore components in their feeders?David's point about managing an overseas source for quality versus managing domestic production spot on.At my work place we outsource some specialized parts of our production to a firm in upstate New York, maybe a 400 mile trip. Occasionally we receive parts of our order that either make our jobs more difficult, reduce our yield, or simply don't meet the standards that have been established. It's challenging communicating the exact standards which must be met even when there are no language, land or cultural barriers to overcome. Much of what we produce is for export to Europe, and similar challenges exist in terms of quality and logistics challenges exist wit those relationships as well.I would be more comfortable buying a Comatic feeder made wholly by Comatic than an Italian branded feeder with parts of various origin, particularly if this parts chain is newly established. I don't see any of this as a consumer review of either product, but it is an interesting area of discussion to me regarding the underlying economic issues relevant to machine pricing and consumer purchasing habits.

[Jeff Duncan]

I don't have any useful info to add, just an observation....

I find it ironic that much of the Italian machinery so highly respected today was originally the lower cost import stuff that started the flow of manufacturing out of the States. So now some of these companies that got their start making less costly equipment for American manufacturers like Powermatic and Delta, have reached the top and are starting to outsource themselves! How much longer until the better quality stuff out there is made in China?

makes you think a bit doesn't it:confused:

good luck,
JeffD

[J.R. Rutter]

How much longer until the better quality stuff out there is made in China?

Not long. Altendorf, Timesavers, and a host of other high end woodworking companies have been manufacturing in China with engineers and QA staff on-site for years. The culture of quality will rub off soon.

[David Kumm]

Jeff and JR, you are correct. The Germans still look at Italian manufacturing with a certain amount of disdain. Japan, Taiwan, and Korea are all producing stuff of quality. Staff on site has become the norm to maintain control over quality. I really think the greater long term problem is our acceptance and even our demand to put price above quality but that is a whole topic in itself. I'm just trying to find out about Steff. At least Altendorf tells you which saws are made where. Only the buyers can tell you the quality differences. Dave

[Stephen Cherry]

Mike, I did not start this to diss comatic. I expect most are fine. Asian parts are showing up in Euro stuff more frequently and while that isn't necessarily the end of the world, I like to know what I'm getting. I don't believe other countries have the stringent laws we do in defining where something is made. Here you can't put " Made in America" on a flashlight if the bulb is foreign- even if no USA bulbs are made. A big shaper is dangerous enough, particularly when spinning large profiles and a feeder is a huge safety device as well as insuring quality cuts. The years have made me more fussy about how they work and really careful when I recommend one. Dave

These are all very valid issues, for a number of reasons. As a consumer, I want to know that I am getting a well constructed product, but I am also concerned about the living conditions of the people that manufacture a particular product. And of course, sometimes pricing will result in some compromise, but what I really do not like is paying a high price because of some percived advantage, only to find out later that it was manufactured by low cost labor. THis is slipping in everywhere. For example, for a number of reasons I like to buy good shoes, and I don't mind spending some money on them. The last time I bought work boots, it took me several days to find a shoe that was made in US. I finally got them at Red Wing, but even there you need to look at each shoe for where it was made. In the case of a feeder, just like a shaper, it's a relatively simple device, but it does a hard job. Quality of manufacture, including precise metalurgy, are critical if a feeder is to last for years. And as David stated, a feeder is an important safety device which needs to work pretty much perfectly or else it serves the exact opposite purpose intended.

[ian maybury]

My background is in working with companies to improve their manufacturing performance - at both business and technical levels.

I think in the end it's all about specifics. It's possible to talk of US or European manufacturing delivering generally decent quality goods, but that's right now. There have always been good companies, but the fact is that up until the 80s our quality on volume produced goods was pretty awful - a legacy of low standards and poor methods on the part of those companies that managed to raise the capital to get into volume/mass production finding they didn't really have much competition in volume markets. It was quite normal for example to need to sort manufacturing defects in new cars, consumer goods and the like.

It took the Japanese and total quality in the late 70s to show the way - plus the driver of lots more competition (globalisation) - for this to really change, but most of mainstream US and European manufacturing didn't make it. The Japanese quickly followed this by competitive introduction of new products (the TQM methods they had developed helped them to cope effectively with the resulting variety) - and the resulting much shortened product life cycles and greatly extended product choice with the double whammy of rapidly dropping prices too (the book 'The Machine that Changed the World' is arguably the definitive telling of this story) made manufacturing massively more difficult to survive and prosper in. Companies found themselves faced with hugely increased complexity, short runs, multiple product types but yet the expectation on the part of the customer of the latest technology with instant availability and total quality - but most continued in the old 'we've always done it this way' mentality.

Lean Manufacturing (the form of the Eastern model popularised and sold in various forms by Western consulting firms) is our name for the resulting paradigm/model of manufacturing excellence that these days is pretty much standard here too.

They had their quality problems in years gone by, and it took the Japanese example to whip them into shape too - but Italian woodworking machinery (and sunglasses and lots of other products) manufacturing is an interesting subset of this story and probably the model of the future - in that the Italians have been very successful in achieving competitive prices, quality and the required operational agility/flexibility through (to varying degrees) co-operative networks of low overhead small family owned businesses - each highly specialised and handling parts of the manufacturing process for a top level brand that fronts to the market. The 'glue' keeping them together being self interest, intense loyalties and a culture of obligation - rather than the rather de-motivating hierarchical/authoritarian model typical of mainstream manufacturing. (ever wondered how it is that four different brands of Italian band saw share a given part?)

As above there are indeed very good Eastern manufacturing companies about, and the lesson of history is that there's going to be a lot more as their industry develops. I'd argue that most of the quality problems we experience with Eastern goods (bear in mind that despite all the talk of Jap scrap and the like that resulted from early experience there that it was the Japanese that gave us our current manufacturing management paradigm) are the result of the purchasing people at the big retailers indiscriminately outsourcing DIY/hobby product from the lowest possible cost and consequently unsophisticated mostly Chinese sources at incredibly low prices - with price ruling above all.

The seemingly hard wired motivation of the average (modern) Joe to buy on price rather than quality, and to let retailers aways with wholesale deceit in their marketing claims is clearly a large part of this scene too.

It's going to be interesting to see where it goes - it could easily turn out that our wobbly Western economic system and appreciating Eastern currencies and increasing costs will create the opportunity for manufacturing to return here...

ian