Hollow and Round set information/price

[Joe Fabbri]

Hi guys,

I'm looking at a set (not fully complete, but many) of hollow and round planes. I've been told they are in excellent condition, hardly used looking, no cracking, checking, etc. I'm not sure what's a decent price to pay for these, per plane, let's say. Do they go for the same as other molding planes, around $10, or are they less, being only a hollow/round and not a design?

Also, the set is mixed, with different manufacturers, many without brand names, just (I guess) owner markings. Is there much of a problem in buying a mixed set, do the sizes vary between makers any significant amount to be concerned?

Thanks,

Joe

[David Weaver]

The range of what they could be worth is too large to tell you without seeing them. If they are a matched set, they usually go for a lot more than $10 per plane. If they are an unmatched set but good, useable and with very little work to be done, you will still be lucky to get them for $10 each.

if someone just threw 20 planes in a box and they're not matched, pitches are all different, different makers, and they need a fair amount of work, etc, you're probably wasting your time with them at all.

In an ideal world, it is nice to get H&Rs that are in use or have recently been in use. Many older moulding planes, when you get down to wanting them to work like a nicely tuned plane, either need a lot of work, or they need so much work that it takes less time to make a new pair and you have a better plane in the end.

As far as whether having different makes together matters, not really if the profiles on the soles are matched, close, or close enough that if you want to match them that you can do it relatively easily.

It's somewhat odd to get a mixed set and have no planemaker's stamp on them at all.

Sorry to sound negative, but I bought 30 H&Rs when I first started woodworking, for $10 each, and the guy who sold them threw in a few beaders and seven dado planes. I thought I was really ready to produce stuff and got a great deal, but in the end, I spent a lot of time making the few that I do use work well, and I have gobs of planes now that either don't match their mate that well, or are close but with differing pitch. They have been a total waste of time, except for the few narrow ones that I've cleaned up and used to make new moulding planes. The new moulding planes are without a doubt better quality than any of the 19th century planes that are in the lot I got.

It's a learning experience. It may not be like buying a bench plane or chisels if this wasn't someone's professional or advanced amateur user set.

[Jim Koepke]

Will you be able to handle the planes before you pays your money?

My juices would really get flowing by the chance to buy a set of hollows and rounds.

Just my opinion, but hollows and rounds may be the foundation of molding planes.

Before getting fully into woodworking I had an opportunity to buy a bunch of hollows and rounds. I still lament my decision to not buy them.

jtk

[Joe Fabbri]

Thanks for the replies, David and Jim.

Yeah, David, I know what you mean that it might be easier to make the planes new in the long run if they aren't good.

I won't be able to handle them before hand, which is what's made me a bit nervous, I'd be buying over the internet. The fellow is a tool collector, and he says they are the best he has. But, yeah, it would be better if they were in actual use, I suppose.

Jim, I'm also hesistant on passing on this set, because I know a set of H&R's probably have endless possibilities. I just made some crown moldings by hand, and I resorted to making a homemade rebate plane from a spade bit and a piece of 3/4 quarter sawn redoak I had. Well I made the mouth too large, because I messed up drilling the angle by hand. But it did the job, albeit with a bit of chatter. Anyway, if I had those hollows and rounds it would have been much easier, if only to clean up the ogee profiles after rough milling with the table saw. On another piece I needed to make a cove on the horizontal portion of the pediments, so I rigged up a rough round plane. It worked, but I only had it bolted together, and it tended to deflect a bit when I would wedge it. Bottom line, I wish I had some of these planes at the time.

Anyway, here's a list of the planes the guys sent me:


Concave#6; Phoenix Company, Hitchcockville; embossed “E R Adams”.
#7; Greenfield Tool Company, Greenfield, Mass., No. 361.
5/8”; no maker; embossed “C MEKEEL”.
#12; Phoenix Company, Hitchcockville; embossed “E R Adams”.
#13; Greenfield Tool Company, Greenfield, Mass., No. 367.
7/8”; no maker; embossed “C Mekeel,” faint impression of “J Denison”.
#14; no maker; embossed “I COX”.
#16; Hills & Winship, Springfield, MS;” embossed “B.H.B”.
#16; Phoenix Company, Hitchcockville, Warranted, embossed “E.R. Adams”.
1-1/2; no maker; embossed “C MEKEEL”.

Convex#2; Greenfield Tool Co, Greenfield, Mass., No. 356.
#6; Phoenix Company, Hitchcockville; embossed “E R Adams”.
#8; Phoenix Company, Hitchcockville, Warranted; embossed “E R Adams”.
3/4”; no maker; embossed “C MEKEEL”.
#12; Phoenix Company, Hitchcockville, Warranted; embossed “E R Adams”.
7/8”; no maker; embossed “C MEKEEL”.
1”; no maker; embossed “C MEKEEL”.
#16; Owasco Tool Co; “180”.
#16; Phoenix Company, Hitchcockville, Warranted; embossed “E R Adams”.
1-1/4”; no maker; embossed “C MEKEEL”.
1-1/2”; no maker; embossed “C MEKEEL”.

All the planes appear to be made of beech wood, are in very good to excellent condition, and all have their appropriately sized irons.


The guys says he removed three planes that were duplicates, as he wants to sell separately. I hope they weren't the better ones he removed, you know.

By the way, he wants $170 for the 17 planes.

Joe


Will you be able to handle the planes before you pays your money?

My juices would really get flowing by the chance to buy a set of hollows and rounds.

Just my opinion, but hollows and rounds may be the foundation of molding planes.

Before getting fully into woodworking I had an opportunity to buy a bunch of hollows and rounds. I still lament my decision to not buy them.

jtk

[Mike Davis NC]

#6; Phoenix Company, Hitchcockville; embossed “E R Adams”.
#6; Phoenix Company, Hitchcockville; embossed “E R Adams”.


#12; Phoenix Company, Hitchcockville; embossed “E R Adams”.
#12; Phoenix Company, Hitchcockville, Warranted; embossed “E R Adams”.


7/8”; no maker; embossed “C Mekeel,” faint impression of “J Denison”.
7/8”; no maker; embossed “C MEKEEL”.


#16; Phoenix Company, Hitchcockville, Warranted, embossed “E.R. Adams”.
#16; Phoenix Company, Hitchcockville, Warranted; embossed “E R Adams”.


1-1/2; no maker; embossed “C MEKEEL”.
1-1/2”; no maker; embossed “C MEKEEL”.




Looks like these are matched and the rest you could sell as singles or try to find mates. So, you have to ask yourself if you are willing to pay $170 for these 5 pair and take a chance on recovering part of that on the others.

[Jerome Hanby]

Another consideration, there is such a thing as peace of mind. If you pass on these are you going to be berating yourself because you let them go? Seems like you might be able to get most if not all your money back out of them if you bought them and they weren't something you could enjoy using. At least you would know for sure. If they look good, I'd think they would sell on the 'bay for $10 a piece plus some consideration for shipping and handling.

[Jim Koepke]

Joe,

If you decide not to go for it, let me know how to go for it and I will do all I can to get SWMBO to let me spend the money.

jtk

[Andrae Covington]

I can give you some info on the makers you've indicated, from the Pollak guide book.

Phoenix Company: founded in 1853, sold in 1864 to L.C. Stephens & Co.

Greenfield Tool Company: founded in 1851 as a successor to Conway Tool Co., declared insolvent in 1883.

Hills & Winship: founded ca. 1832.

Owasco Tool Company: a trade name of Auburn Tool Co. from 1875 to at least 1893.

With the exception of Hills & Winship, these were all large plane manufacturers and their planes are considered common in the collectors market. Based on the info you have, I'd say there's nothing of exceptional value here, so if they're in good workable condition, or can be fettled to work, they sound like good user planes. The fettling-to-work part is a big unknown, however, as David warned from his experiences.

Different makers used different numbering systems for the sizes. Some of the planes in your list, particularly the ones without maker's marks, are listed by the actual width, so that dials those in. The others are presumably arranged in relative size, but may not be an evenly-stepped progression. I am not sure how critical it is to have a hollow of a particular size match a round of that particular size... when would you ever fit a convex portion of a moulding to a concave portion of another moulding? These aren't intended to make rule joints, after all.

[Jim Belair]

Seems like a decent price to me. And the 5 matched sets that Mike pointed out cover the size range reasonably well, maybe with addition of some smaller.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Personally I would pass on them. There are just too many variables to make it worth it. Remember that what a collector considers important in condition is different than a user. The prices are reasonable because the planes don't even come close to a set matched in any way and that greatly reduces their value in the marketplace. I own 2 half sets of hollows and rounds, a common pitch set of from Andrus of Trenton NJ which work sorta OK and a really nice half set of Griffiths of Norwich UK skewed and with York Pitch. Even at auction, the Griffiths were over double your price, but I got to inspect and handle the places, got all the same maker, and have a full size range fro #2 to #16. This was well worth it to me since only some sharpening and honing was need to put them inot use.

[Matt Bickford]

A rule joint is one example of fitting the concave to the convex.

That aside, general maintenance of the planes' soles will be necessary. Using a #6 round to touch up the flatness of the sole of a matching #6 hollow is an operation that, assuming the irons match the soles, takes a few minutes. You will be on your own if the soles don't match.

This general maintenance is required if you want the planes to perform as they should (or, potentially, even at all).

That being said, I have never put an antique plane into working order without addressing the sole first. Make the soles match...

[David Keller NC]

Joe - Not sure this will help you out on the specific planes you're considering - like lots of other things, "condition is everything".

For comparison sake, though (a half-set is a group of 18 planes, numbered as pairs of a particular size. An "even" half-set is size numbers 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16, & 18 in pairs, an "odd" set is 1, 3, 5, etc...) :

A half-set of hollows and rounds, all by the same maker and all stamped by the same owner, goes for about $600 - $800 for a British set, about $800 - $1000 for an american set. This assumes that the planes are in new or near-new condition (full length irons, little wear to the sole, intact wedges, etc...).

A half-set that are by different makers are sometimes termed "harlequin" sets. These go for far less - typically about $300 for a British set, about $400 for an American set. Again, these are planes in little-used condition with no major defects.

A scruffy, well-used but otherwise intact half set of all-one-maker and all-one-owner H&Rs could go for as little as $250 unless the maker has some historical collector's value.

[Dave Ring]

Have any of you guys ever seen either a "full set" or an "odd half set" of H&Rs? I've never seen anything but even- numbered H&Rs either singly or in sets, either live or in pictures. It seems odd that we refer to a complete set of even-numbered H&Rs as a "half set" when the supposedly corresponding odd-numbered planes appear to be either vanishingly rare or nonexistent.

[Andrae Covington]

A rule joint is one example of fitting the concave to the convex.

That aside, general maintenance of the planes' soles will be necessary. Using a #6 round to touch up the flatness of the sole of a matching #6 hollow is an operation that, assuming the irons match the soles, takes a few minutes. You will be on your own if the soles don't match.

This general maintenance is required if you want the planes to perform as they should (or, potentially, even at all).

That being said, I have never put an antique plane into working order without addressing the sole first. Make the soles match...

Thanks Matt, I hadn't considered the maintenance aspect as a reason to have a matching pair. Makes sense.

[David Keller NC]

Have any of you guys ever seen either a "full set" or an "odd half set" of H&Rs? I've never seen anything but even- numbered H&Rs either singly or in sets, either live or in pictures. It seems odd that we refer to a complete set of even-numbered H&Rs as a "half set" when the supposedly corresponding odd-numbered planes appear to be either vanishingly rare or nonexistent.

Yes. They're not common, and a set of 36 planes all by the same maker and all with one owner's stamp goes for a substantial premium over what 2 half-sets would. Evens are the most common, but one occasionally sees odd half-sets.

Personally speaking, if I was ordering new planes by Matt or Old Street, I would rather have a set comprised of 1,2,3,4,5,7,9,11 & 13 pairs than a set of all odds or evens up to 18. The reason is that the smaller sizes are often the most useful in making furniture-sized molding. 14 and up sizes tend to be more for joiners making moldings for a house. One might occasionally need a 14 set in a cabinet shop to make a crown molding, but I don't use the big sizes all that much.

[Matt Bickford]

Rare, yes. Non-existent, no.

The more you get into using these planes the more, at least for me, you may desire these in-between planes, especially in the smaller sizes. A #11 is 10% larger than a #10. A #2, however, is 100% larger than a #1. Mimicking the shapes of larger sizes will be a skill you attain. Making a bead that is 1/8" (#1 hollow) in diameter is a pain with a #2; significant facets will remain. Making a cove that has a radius of 1/16" is not possible with a #2 round (1/8" radius).

I crave #1s, 3s and 5s.

[Joe Fabbri]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Maybe I will go for it. If not Jim, I'll definitely let you know, no problem.

As I'm not familiar really with the different wooden plane makers, are the labeled ones good makers, or just ordinary, or does that not come into play too much with the h&r's?

Joe

[Jack Curtis]

You may want to check with Tony Murland (http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/toolbox.php?category=Wooden%20planes) for harlequin sets of hollows and rounds.

Jack

[Brian Cameron]

Joe:
I collect moulding planes..but British Makers only..and have a few rules that I try to follow...get good reference materials...only buy top quality planes..learn what you are doing as in know the profiles and makers...and collect what and whom you like...if you are buying them for users..makers less important...if they tug at your collectors edge..pay attention.
As a collector I try to stay under $20 per plane...except for the rare ones..and then it is market driven..just bought 10 British planes by the same maker with same owner ....from 1819-30... on Ebay for $160...so $16 each ...and all in VG condition..
Brian

[Joe Fabbri]

Forget it, guys, I'm buying a router!

Haha, thanks for all the information everyone, you've successfully made me more confused about what to do. I'll have to look into it and think about it more.

Thanks for the link, Jack, I'll check out Tony's site.

[Brian Cameron]

As to Harlequin sets of hollows and rounds I am 2 planes short of one # 1- 18.. in the Madox..Mutter..Moseley continuim

[Joe Fabbri]

Hi guys,

I haven't decided yet if I'm going to buy them, but I've spoken with the guy some more. I asked him if he used them, and how did or do they work. He says he tried them a few times many years ago (he's had them for 30+ years), but found it difficult (I had asked him if they were particularly hard planes to use). He says, though, that the planes are as sharp as ever and fully functional, and in excellent condition.

I'm not sure how to take the fact that he says he found them difficult to use. I'm guessing maybe he didn't have the planes set properly, and mayabe he didn't prepare the wood for use right, meaning maybe he didn't take off any extra waste first with a regular or block plane, and maybe he didn't cut any grooves/rebates first to guide the planes--that's fairy common practice, right (to make sure it tracts right)?

I guess it's a hard call to know if it's from his lack of familiarity with the planes or the planes themselves. But it'd be correct to say that it takes some getting used to, right? I mean, even a regular plane will seem difficult to use if you don't understand how to set the plane and sharpen properly, you know.

Joe

[Jim Koepke]

I haven't decided yet if I'm going to buy them, but I've spoken with the guy some more. I asked him if he used them, and how did or do they work. He says he tried them a few times many years ago (he's had them for 30+ years), but found it difficult (I had asked him if they were particularly hard planes to use). He says, though, that the planes are as sharp as ever and fully functional, and in excellent condition.

I would not base a decision on such a set based on a person who may not know how to sharpen blades that are not square and may not know how to set a blade in a wooden plane.

If you can try before you buy, that would be the best way to make up your mind.

I would buy them and try them at home. At that price you could likely sell them for as much or better than your paying for them on ebay.

jtk

[Larry Williams]

Have any of you guys ever seen either a "full set" or an "odd half set" of H&Rs? I've never seen anything but even- numbered H&Rs either singly or in sets, either live or in pictures. It seems odd that we refer to a complete set of even-numbered H&Rs as a "half set" when the supposedly corresponding odd-numbered planes appear to be either vanishingly rare or nonexistent.

I have a near complete set of early Moseley hollows and rounds with the same owner's mark. Two planes are missing, if I remember right. I've seen several old sets of odds and a couple complete sets. Odd numbered hollow and round planes aren't rare and are often seen at tool collector meets.

[Dave Ring]

Thanks for the info Larry. I guess I should get out more.

[Mark Wyatt]

Not affiliated, but Jim Bode has a couple of harlequin sets for sale right now. I've heard he is decent to work with.