veneer help

[Zahid Naqvi]

I took a dive into another unchartered territory (for me) of woodworking. Got me a bunch of burl veneer and am going to try and use it on a table top, 12"X40". I've never worked with veneer before and don't have a vacuum press either. I have done some reading and it seems I can pull it off using contact cement and some good planning.

I seek your opinions on the pros and cons of using contact cement, not that I have a choice (being without a vacuum press) but I would still like to educate myself. What kind of cement/glue works best if I have to apply a glossy top coat, such as polyurethane.

Any other methods besides vacuum press I can use to bookmatch and apply veneer to a substrate.

If you can provide links to on-line tutorials it will be great.

[Keith Christopher]

contact cement NO NO ! Get some unibond 800. You can bond a veneer to a top in many ways- remember we didn't always have vaccuum presses. You can put some cawls on it and use clamps, you always have to be careful however of the veneer moving, so I recommend taping the book matches together with veneer tape (on the top or "good" side if it's not a backed veneer. I would recommend not starting with a burl as they have challenges (less so if a backed veneer.) I would buy some cheap ash or maple veneers and experiment with them.

[Cecil Arnold]

I seem to recall there is some glue information on the joe woodworker web site that you might find helpful. While they sell parts to construct your own vacuum press, there is also quiet a bit of verneering info there.

[Steve Cox]

Without a press I would look at hide glue and hammer veneering. That was the way it was done for hundreds of years before presses. Try to find "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking". I think it just came back into print from Taunton. He has quite a section on veneering which would be a great place to start.

[Doug Shepard]

One other option is to use press frames. I've used these on small veneer projects in the past and have had good results. The wood for my frames was free. I was able to make some 3x3's out of pallet runners. The corner joints are all bridle joints then nuts/bolts through the joints. I've got various sizes of the frames, but actually only have around 8 of the press screws. I was trying to keep the costs downs, so depending on what size panels I need to press, I grab the right sized frames and transfer the press screws to the frames. I think my screws are 12", but I think you can also get 9" and 6" for less cost.

[Steve Wargo]

Unibond is great stuff but not necessary. There is a bit of a learning curve for hammer veneering. And without a bag you may be biting off more than you can chew on a piece that size. I've done a bit of veneer work, both Hammer veneering and pressing in a bag. A panel the size that you're attempting is simply easiest in a bag. Also what you need to remember is that If you are using a burl more than likely it was a little pricey so you'd hate to end up burning it. If I was you I'd look for an inexpensive pump on that big auction site (usually around $50 for a new or refurbed overstock and always available) and buy a bag or make one. You'll have about $125 into it by the time you make a plenum and it will more than pay for itself. If you work fast you can use regular old titebond glue. I only use Unibond if the panel is huge and I risk having a long open time before I can get it into the press. Contact cement is definately a No No.

[Bill Arnold]

Zahid,

There's some good information on veneering at <a href="http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips.html">Oakwood Veneer</a>.

Are you using paper-backed veneer or flitches?

Regards,

[Zahid Naqvi]

So far I have found useful info at Joe wood worker and Oak wood veneer. The veneer I am using is item number 7300354566 on the auction site, as you can see it's not backed, it's a burl veneer, and I am already starting to feel I have bit more than I can swallow/chew. There seems to be a unanimous opposition to contact cement what else can I use; titebond cold press for veneer http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&cookietest=1&&sku=2220&cs=1, unibond 800 (as Keith recommends). Joe woodworker has a good review of glues for veneering who inclines towards unibond 800.

Doug, I have looked at some press frame designs it might be something I can pull off.

Steve, I am not sure about making a vacuum press. I am still a novice and not sure how much veneering I will do in the future. I am in the learning mode and try to do a different project each time to learn some new techniques. But I will keep your advice in mind if I get into doing more veneering.

One question I do have is; do you book match and edge joint the veneer before you put it on a substrate or after.

[Zahid Naqvi]

I think my screws are 12", but I think you can also get 9" and 6" for less cost.

Doug, where did you get your press screws from. The only place I can find is woodcraft, which is selling these for $18. I'd rather make a vacuum press than buy 8-10 of these.

[lou sansone]

my guess is the the burl is also sort of "fried bacon" wavy. If this is so then you need to get some veneer softeneer and soften it. I happen to like constanties veneer softerer, but there are others. I agree with the post that said bit the bullet and build a bag and press. I did and it was really pretty easy.

[Doug Shepard]

....
Doug, I have looked at some press frame designs it might be something I can pull off....

I'll try to get some digital pics taken this weekend. They're pretty quick and simple to make.

[Keith Christopher]

Doug, where did you get your press screws from. The only place I can find is woodcraft, which is selling these for $18. I'd rather make a vacuum press than buy 8-10 of these.
You can get them from rockler. Interesting thing though, if you buy a bunch of them you will be almost in the price range of a vaccuum press. ;) Well the 1hg one rockler sells. Also the thing about working with burls is that they are naturally "open" which is to say they usually have small holes in them. This presents a problem because in the ones you see it's ok, but the ones you don't see you can get bleed through. make sure you don't use too much glue (should be the case for ANY woodworking not just veneers.) and good clamping pressure.




Unibond is great stuff but not necessary. There is a bit of a learning curve for hammer veneering. And without a bag you may be biting off more than you can chew on a piece that size. I've done a bit of veneer work, both Hammer veneering and pressing in a bag. A panel the size that you're attempting is simply easiest in a bag. Also what you need to remember is that If you are using a burl more than likely it was a little pricey so you'd hate to end up burning it. If you work fast you can use regular old titebond glue. I only use Unibond if the panel is huge and I risk having a long open time before I can get it into the press. Contact cement is definately a No No Steve,
I agree with you totally about hammer veneering. There is no doubt a bag makes things easier. I would however not use regular titebond, while it is fine and will work, the PVA glues have a tendency to "creep" over time. Also bleedout it a problem with them I've noticed more so that the UB 800. yes open times with titebond are VERY limited. Don't you hate feeling like you're rushing when playing with veneers. :)

Keith

[Keith Christopher]

my guess is the the burl is also sort of "fried bacon" wavy. If this is so then you need to get some veneer softeneer and soften it. I happen to like constanties veneer softerer, but there are others. I agree with the post that said bit the bullet and build a bag and press. I did and it was really pretty easy.
Lou ,

Good point. I found a good flattening formula (unless you buy the stuff on Joe woodworker.) somewhere on the internet a while ago. Here is is, You don't have to put it in a press just put some evenly distributed weight on it.

VENEER FLATTENING FORMULA


Mix Together:

2 parts white or yellow glue
3 parts water
1 part glycerin
1 part denatured alcohol



1. Mix all components together thoroughly and apply to both sides of the veneer liberally.

2. Let soak for a minute or two

3. Place veneer between fiberglass window screen (both sides) and add 2-3 layers of
newspaper on top of the screen. You may continue by adding more newspaper, screen,
veneer, etc., stacking as high as you like. Flip each veneer end for end so the wavy parts
are not all in the same spot.

4. Place this "sandwich" in your veneer press with a caul on top (1/4" minimum.) and
apply full pressure.

5. Change the newspaper 3 times the first day and leave under pressure overnight.

6. On the second day remove the sandwich from the press and take away the screen, it is
no longer needed, as the veneer will not stick to the newspaper anymore.

7. Change the newspaper 3 times this day but do not put the sandwich in the press, just
place weight on top of the caul to hold the stack down. It is easy to think this second day
is unnecessary since the veneer will feel fairly dry, but it is not dry enough to press. This
extra day is important for good final results.

8. On the third day the veneer is ready to use. If you do not use it immediately the veneer
will stay flat for months provided a board is placed on top of the veneer stack, apply light
pressure. Newspaper between the veneer is unnecessary at this point

[Doug Shepard]

Doug, where did you get your press screws from. The only place I can find is woodcraft, which is selling these for $18. I'd rather make a vacuum press than buy 8-10 of these.
Well they have gone up a bit since I bought mine. I got the 12" ones from 7 Corners. I think they were maybe 12.99? They're now 17.50 for the 12" and 14.50 for the 9".
http://www.7corners.com/7c_store/findprod.cfm?DID=1&sku=-198886125&cat

I looked up Highland Hardware and they have them for $0.49 more ea size.
Woodcraft's price is for the 9", so they're pretty high. All of these are Jorgensen BTW.

I noticed in my last WW Supply catolog that they now have an import 9" that they're selling under the Woodtek name. Decent price for the 9" - $10.99
http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=123-767

[Zahid Naqvi]

I noticed in my last WW Supply catolog that they now have an import 9" that they're selling under the Woodtek name. Decent price for the 9" - $10.99
http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=123-767

That's more up my alley, $8.49 if you buy 4 or more.

[Cecil Arnold]

I made a press frame to do some drawer fronts, the largest of which was 12"X34" and using 3/4 MDF for cauls and three press screws managed to get 5 of the 8 sides to bond well. The remaining three sides (turned to the interior of the drawer) had bubbles that I could not get to lay down. I used tightbond, and have been told that an iron would work but couldn't get it to. By the time you buy the screws, make the frames, set up the cauls, etc. you would be better off buying or building a bag setup. If you checked out the JWW site, you have instructions, and there are a number of other uses for a vacuum pump setup. You can make a vacuum clamp for your workbench and if you turn you have the basis for a vacuum chuck. So far as experience level, if you stay in this craft long enough you will do more veneering, especally when you look at the constantly rising prices of quality hardwoods.

[Dave Avery]

One question I do have is; do you book match and edge joint the veneer before you put it on a substrate or after.

Zahid,

Before....... usually with veneer tape every 4-6 inches running across the seam. Some use painter's tape instead but I've found it to be even more of a pain than veneer tape. Good luck. Dave.

[Bill Arnold]

... Steve, I am not sure about making a vacuum press. I am still a novice and not sure how much veneering I will do in the future. I am in the learning mode and try to do a different project each time to learn some new techniques. But I will keep your advice in mind if I get into doing more veneering.

One question I do have is; do you book match and edge joint the veneer before you put it on a substrate or after.
Zahid,

If you go ahead and build a vacuum press now, you'll find many uses for it. In addition to simply veneering flat panels, you can build radius pieces with veneer over bending plywood and create bentwood laminations as well.

Book matching and edge joining should be done before applying the veneer to the substrate. This will help keep the pieces together when pressure is applied.

Regards,

[Doug Shepard]

OK - got some pics taken of my press frames if you decide to go that route. I've got several different sizes. Which ones I use depend on the size of the panel I need to glue. I just slide the panel through the frames and position them so that I get a screw about every 8 inches or so. Then I use some 6x6 MDF plattens on top of the panels and under the screws to spread the pressure out and avoid marring the glue up panel. I just basically use these to get pressure in the panel centers. At the outer edges I can just use quik-grip or whatever else I've got so I don't have to buy more press screws and use even more frames.

[Keith Christopher]

Zahid,

If you go ahead and build a vacuum press now, you'll find many uses for it. In addition to simply veneering flat panels, you can build radius pieces with veneer over bending plywood and create bentwood laminations as well.

Book matching and edge joining should be done before applying the veneer to the substrate. This will help keep the pieces together when pressure is applied.

Regards,
You know in building a veneer press I was AMAZED at how toxic the vinyl adherive was. I did a little research and man this stuff it badness if misused or long exposure to it's fumes. Good thing you don't have to use it too long. ;)


Keith

[Zahid Naqvi]

Well the vacuum press problem has been solved. I am taking a woodworking class these days and the instructor has a vacuum press he can loan me for a week.
Doug, I appreciate the effort to post pictures of your press frames.

Keith, Bill, building a vacuum press will depend on how this project goes, I can certainly see some added uses for the vacuum press.

Now I feel pressurised to post pictures of what I end up doing with the veneer.

[Bill Arnold]

You know in building a veneer press I was AMAZED at how toxic the vinyl adherive was. I did a little research and man this stuff it badness if misused or long exposure to it's fumes. Good thing you don't have to use it too long. ;) Keith
But, on the other hand.....well, never mind.....:D :confused: :D :eek: :D

When I made my 'shower curtain bag', I sealed the sides with hot melt adhesive -- mainly because I had plenty and was too lazy to go to the store for vinyl adhesive. It's held nicely so far.

[Keith Christopher]

Well the vacuum press problem has been solved. I am taking a woodworking class these days and the instructor has a vacuum press he can loan me for a week.
Doug, I appreciate the effort to post pictures of your press frames.

Keith, Bill, building a vacuum press will depend on how this project goes, I can certainly see some added uses for the vacuum press.

Now I feel pressurised to post pictures of what I end up doing with the veneer.Zahid,

I vaccuum press is certainly easier than screws. but my point was one can veneer without a vaccuum press. We see it so often we just jump right out and assume we need one. If you build one I can say it is worth it in the end. oh and you better post a picture. I know tyler is MIA but there are plenty others on the pic police force.

Oh and incase anyone is interested in HH-66 warnings about this stuff.

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/MSDS.htm



Keith