noob needs help

[Rick Prosser]

Hi all
I have recently jumped into hand planes, and a buddy asked me to clean up a table top that had been dinged up a bit. <br>
I thought it might be a good project for me to get my feet wet. This table top will probably go into his RV, so it is not an heirloom or anything.

I got the (30x44) table top and clamped it down to a solid table (don't have a bench yet). Used my #7 jointer and #4 smoother to remove most of the finish and top layer using diagonal strokes. The wood is pine. The table was dinged up a good bit, so I am trying to remove 1/16 - 1/8 of material to get it smoothed out (and still keep it flat).

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As I am working to smooth out the dings, I have having difficulty with the grain and knots. The sections where the grain is straight, I seem to be able to manage OK, but some sections the the grain goes crazy:

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Sometimes my plane wants to dig in if I am not careful and stop before moving into opposing grain direction.

The knots are also keeping me from making the wood smooth. I am ending up with high spots where ever there is a knot.

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An finally, sometimes when I plane an area, it just seems to make a rough spot instead of smoothing - maybe chatter?

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I don't mind working at this to get it right, but without someone to point out my mistakes, I feel like I may be making things worse. Maybe this was too tough a project to start out with...

I am trying to keep the blades sharp. I have a Worksharp 3000, and I get good shavings on the smooth grain areas - but not always on the wilder spots.

Any pointers?

[john brenton]

Its good that you've stopped to see what's doing. Some wood has more grain changes than otthers, and you can go from planing with to planing against in several places and end up with horrible tear out. I would immediately try skewing the plane and planing diagonally with it set for a ligt to medium cut. If that doesn't work there's always a card scraper and/orsandpaper,

[Luke Townsley]

You picked a fairly difficult project to start on. Especially if it is kiln dried, the knots in pine can be very very hard. Almost like cutting glass. You are right that keeping your iron sharp is important if you are having trouble. It sounds to me like it isn't as sharp as it should be for this project. Also, depending on the quality of your iron and how you sharpen it, it may be dulling on the knots much faster than you realize.

Also, it sounds like you are getting some chatter which would indicate the iron might not be bedded properly (sharpening can also help). If you have a Bailey style plane, make sure the frog and sole line up giving the iron support over the whole length down to the bottom of the sole. If you need to move the iron farther forward to close the mouth, you can try shimming it.

Also, it sounds like the mouth opening on your smoother may be a bit wider than what would be ideal. Also, if the sole of the plane isn't flat and there is a high spot in front of the mouth, it can give a similar effect since it isn't pressing down on the wood.

To soften up the knots and areas of reversed grain, you can use some kind of oil like mineral oil, cooking oil, linseed, or camelia or maybe alcohol or mineral spirits. A lot of people do that on end grain. It is a lot of trouble for knots, but can help. After you take a pass or two, you may have to put it on again. Don't put on anything that would interfere with whatever finish it is going to get.

[Joe Fabbri]

I'm also fairly new to hand planes, and I've just been encountering similar problems on some pine boards I'm using to make some moldings out of. I came across a knot right in the fillet area of a molding I was making. The pine was a very old board, so the knot was hard as anything. It is a pretty tight knot, so I figured I could still salvage the piece of molding. What I wound up doing was paring the knot down with a chisel. It's not as smooth as the rest of the fillet, but I can sand it a little and fill over it (it's being painted).

Maybe on the ends of the table, wherever you can reach, you can carefully pare it with a chisel. If you take a bit too much off with the chisel, you can always bring the surrounding softer wood down more.

As far as planing, I was able, after taking most of the knot down with a chisel, to plane it a bit, by holding the plane down very tightly as I started on the knot area. So, maybe don't try to ride over the whole area in one shot (it will just bounce over the knot), but go right to the knot at first, and hold the plane down tightly just there.

Alternatively, perhaps a block plane might work here. I've been able to go through a few small knots with a sharp block plane (standard angle).

With the tearout of the wild grain, you might have to resort to a sanding block to finish it off.

Joe

[Jack Curtis]

...What I wound up doing was paring the knot down with a chisel. It's not as smooth as the rest of the fillet, but I can sand it a little and fill over it (it's being painted)....

You can control a chisel better to avoid tearout and other digs if you use the chisel bevel down.

Jack

[Luke Townsley]

I just looked closely at the pictures.
In the last picture, it doesn't look like chatter to me. I think it is just reversing grain. Some ways to deal with it are by sharpening your iron, closing up the mouth on the plane, skewing the plane (a perennial favorite for good reason), take a lighter pass, and/or changing directions you are planing. A plane with a different angle might also do better. If all else fails, reach for a scraper.

In the second picture with the plane digging in, that could be from having a plane with a sole that isn't flat (with a bit of skill, you can have more success with soles that are a bit less than flat), It may be made a bit worse by a mouth that is too open. An iron that isn't sharp enough is also a likely culprit. Also, it is likely that you aren't keeping pressure on the right areas of the plane at the right times. Another thing to check is that you have ground the iron to a steep enough bevel. More likely, it is some combination of several factors. Try taking off the high spots first creating a very slight hollow and then bringing it up to flat.

I know this all sounds like a lot to work through, and maybe it is, but after you get set up and develop some skill, it becomes second nature.

[Rick Prosser]

I just looked closely at the pictures...
<snip>
...I know this all sounds like a lot to work through, and maybe it is, but after you get set up and develop some skill, it becomes second nature.

Yeah - the missing part is for sure the skill development...but I guess that is what is happening now - albeit slowly.

I picked up a #4 and #5 recently, so I will get those cleaned, sharpened, and in the game too. (with different angle and mouth) I can experiment and see what works best.

How do I know if I have pressure in the right place? I kinda assumed that the pressure needed to be even-ish.

Planes

Millers Falls Craftsman #4
Stanley #4
Stanley #5
Stanley #7
Stanley block plane (not sure of #)

[Bill Moser]

Rick -
To echo Luke, you sure picked a tough one to start out the Neader journey with. You're switching grains in soft wood, and then adding random patches of cocobolo-like hardness to your fun. Gee, I think I'd just crack myself over the head with that table top a few times to get myself in the mood :) In the short run. you might want to go to scrapers or sandpaper, if you've gotten the top flat. Longer term, you might want to invest in Hock or Clifton blades for your planes, and for pine, keep them beyond "scary sharp".

p.s. It's Millers Falls, not Mills Falls. That's very important to us folks from MA!

[Gary Herrmann]

Try a card scraper.

[Trevor Walsh]

That looks to me like longleaf pine, very resinous. I have a pair of antique boards in it for a coffee table that I'm mustering the wherewithal to tackle. Fine cuts and a razor edge should help greatly.

[Bob Smalser]

Find someone with a thickness sander or high-end skills with a belt sander.

[Luke Townsley]

As to where to put pressure on the plane, basically, when you start a cut, push down on the toe of the plane to make sure it is against the work. As you move into the cut, move the downward force to the back of the plane pushing the tote down.

The workbench I am building is a lot like your board except the wood is probably softer and the knots harder. It is bad enough I need to wear eye protection while planing it since the knots have a tendency to shatter like glass and fly up in my face. My saving grace is that I don't care what it looks like when I am done as long as it is flat.

[Rick Prosser]

UPDATE

Well, I cleaned up the two recent acquisitions, sharpened all the blades, and used some of the techniques and suggestions provided. Things went a lot better. The skewed plane, light cuts and patience paid off. I have a table top that - while not perfect - is something that I am not embarrassed to return to the owner.

Here are the planes I used.
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The thing that made the most difference was...surprise! - sharp blades. I think those glass-like knots were really killing my blades. Once I re-sharpened and stayed away from the knots, the other areas cleaned up nicely. I worked on the knots individually and they were really hard. The block plane seemed to work best on the knots - and then a very light going over the area with the bench plane.

Thanks for all the help. Next time I have an issue I will sharpen first, and again - then ask the questions.

[Jim Koepke]

Sharpness can make all the difference.

As you get better at sharpening blades, you will find your blades actually getting sharper than what you thought was sharp.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Sharpness can make all the difference.

As you get better at sharpening blades, you will find your blades actually getting sharper than what you thought was sharp.

jtk

I assume this is the case.... I keep thinking that I need to bring some of my blades to someone so that they can comment on how sharp they are (or are not).