Waterlox & walnut. Keep going, sand, or start over?

[Ken Peluso]

I'm working on a walnut tabletop for our dining room and decided to use Waterlox original, planning on around 6 coats brushed on and NOT wiped down followed by a topcoat of Waterlox Satin.

I did not use a grain filler on the walnut, nor did I wet sand with the first coat to fill the pores. I've read thread after thread on techniques, experiences, etc. Read flexner's books, and everything I could on the Waterlox site before I began. I was expecting the finish to level out at some point but after 5 coats brushed on with good oxygen exchange and 24-hours in-between coats, the surface still isn't near level.

So, my question is, should I keep going as some have said, waiting for the finish to level off at some point (I keep reading that 6 coats is some magical number ??), let this coat dry well past 24-hours and wet sand in hopes to level the finish somewhat, of do I sand it down, fill the pores in some way and start over?

Thanks for looking and for your advice.
Ken

Full shot from a foot or two away:
http://randomkp.com/misc/waterlox-full.jpg

Closeup 1:
http://randomkp.com/misc/waterlox.jpg

Closeup 2:
http://randomkp.com/misc/waterlox2.jpg

[Howard Acheson]

Using finish to fill the grain is a slow process when using a slow drying oil based finish. The process is to apply 2-3 coats which are allowed to fully dry. Then using a cabinet scraper or 180-220 sandpaper on a hard, flat felt covered sanding block, remove all the finish from the raised part of the grain leaving the finish only in the pores or deep figure of the grain. Then apply 3 more coats. When fully dry, again use your card scraper or sandpaper to level and again remove all the finish from the higher part of the grain. When scraping this time you should get not see any gloss areas or pore marks. Once you get to this point the surface is ready for a couple of last finishing coats.

Here is a link to a more detailed description of the process but using shellac instead of varnish. Shellac goes a lot faster.

http://www.hardwoodlumberandmore.com/Articles/ArticleViewPage/tabid/75/ArticleId/17/Grain-Filling-with-Shellac.aspx

[Ken Peluso]

Thank you Howard.

[Alan Lightstone]

I tried the process using shellac on sapele, with not much success. I also tried it with Waterlox, and after about 8 brushed on coats (and several sanding stages), it still hadn't fully filled all the grain. I vowed next time to use oil-based grain filler. My quick tests with it seemed to work much better. Certainly much faster. Perhaps not as pretty.

I really wanted the shellac filling to work, but it was finicky for me and really didn't work.

Howard, have you ever tried grain filling with Plaster-of-Paris? Jewitt talks about it in his book. Sounded interesting, but I never got around to trying it.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> have you ever tried grain filling with Plaster-of-Paris?

No, I've never tried that. I know Jewitt has espoused it. I probably haven't used a grain filler more than 4-5 times in my 50 years of woodworking. I sort of prefer a finish that leaves a little of the look and feel of the wood grain.

[Ken Peluso]

Howard,

I have sanded down as suggested and only see reflective finish in the pores and deep grain structure. Continuing to use waterlox, would you recommend I continue my brush on a leave technique or should I brush or wipe on then wipe down after a period of time?

Thanks again,
Ken

[Harvey Pascoe]

There is no easy way to a perfect table top, it takes a lot of work.

Alan, it looks to me like you aren't sanding very much between coats. What happens with varnish and deep grain involves a liquid and meniscus effect. The natural liquid tension of the varnish pulls it up out of the grain and piles it onto the flat surface, so that as you go along the deep grain begins to look even deeper. Am I right?

So what I would do is use an RO sander and carefully grind that down ALMOST to bare wood. By not going thru the varnish, you'll avoid getting hollows. Then apply another coat and longboard sand it. Glue sandpaper to a flat board at least 12" long. This will show you if you have any hollows. My guess is that you'll need another three coats with heavy sanding between - I would wet sand the remaining coats. When you are done, you will have a very fine looking table that is very durable.

Oh, and I notice you have some seams that are not totally tight. One way I deal with that is to use a small rubber or vinyl squeegee and work varnish into the seam by using the squeegee at a 45 degree angle to the seam after applying varnish with a small artists brush. Let that cure and resand. This is the way I deal with numerous seams in veneer mosaics finished with varnish to perfect finish.

[Ken Peluso]

Thanks Harvey.

[Mike Konobeck]

What formulation did you use as the base coats? Did you use the sealer/finish or high gloss finish? I assume sealer/finish since I believe that is what they call their "Original" finish.

According to the Waterlox guide (bottom of pg 10) they say not to sand between coats (http://www.waterlox.com/assets/pdfs/woodworking-guide-FINAL.pdf). Obviously you have an issue so you are going to have to do something. I just finished the first coat on my dining room table of the sealer/finish and it sure seems like it is going to be a finicky finish to brush on. I am going to likely brush on the first 2-3 coats and switch over to wiping it on or spraying (for the chairs mainly). Vertical surfaces are kind of a pain.

Harvey probably has the best idea to sand it back. Since the coats technically are supposed to adhere to each other I would only sand it until smooth with as fine of grit as possible to efficiently level the finish and then apply a wiped on coat or two over that. Maybe thinning it down just a bit more (5-10%). Not much but just enough to really get it to flow out well. Don't know if you are using a really high quality brush or not but that may make a difference if you wanted to attempt to brush again. I will know soon enough if brushing with high quality brushes is the way to go.

Good luck on repairing it. Nothing worse then having to take a step back at the finishing stage. Waterlox gets a lot of great reviews and since its original purpose was on floors it has to lay down smooth. Keep us posted on how it turns out.

[Henry Ambrose]

Definitely sand it back and re-coat. This is not about leveling, its about building coats over a surface that is not smooth to start with. When you add a layer to the bottom of a pore and to the top of the surrounding wood you still have the same difference in levels from top to bottom.

You don't have to cut it all the way back to bare wood but you definitely want to cut the high parts nearly even with the bottoms of the pores and then recoat. Allow plenty of drying time each coat, sand it back and keep at it until you're done. Done means that you'll be happy to look at it next month or next year and be proud of what you've made.

[Ken Peluso]

Thanks to everyone who gave me insight into this. In the end, I did sand it back then re-coated BUT this time I found and read and re-read the threads here on SMC explaining what it really means to wipe-on a finish. Once I got that concept I was able to build up the finish to something we really like. Its been sitting to cure for about two weeks now and we just put it into light use this morning. My wife and kids love it and my toddler said 'table' for the first time today while eating his breakfast. double win.

Thanks again everyone!

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[Alan Lightstone]

Nice job. I really like the finish that Waterlox produces, but clearly filling the pores is a long, tedious process. Waiting between coats, and curing fully seem to take forever.

Most importantly, you and your family really love the finished product. And are expanding vocabulary.

[glenn bradley]

have you ever tried grain filling with Plaster-of-Paris?

I have. Worked great on red oak when followed by BLO. The oil makes the P of P translucent so a darker colorant yields better looking results than say, just oil alone followed by a top coat. In my limited experience with fillers I would say this is a very acceptable method within certain color ranges and sizes of things to be filled. HTH.