So at 12volt tool is actually 10.8????

[Dave Lehnert]

Reminds me of air compressors.

How many tool makers 12 volt tools are only 10.8?

My source of information.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx1gcDk41Y0&feature=feedwll&list=WL

[ray hampton]

how many 12 volt ? , I gave up , how many , possible the same as 14.2 car battery passing their selves off as 12 volt

[Bill Huber]

I just went out and measured my 12v Milwaukee batteries.

Right from the charger = 12.76
Was take out of the charger last night = 12.59
From the drill that I have been using = 11.66

So I am not sure where he is getting that the 12v tools are still only 10.8

[Leo Graywacz]

Some of the newer DeWalt tools are claiming to be 12v when they are really 10.8.

[ray hampton]

according to the salesman said , I am guessing that his battery are call 9 volt but do produce 10,8 volt

[Alan Schaffter]

For Nicad (Ni-Cd) and Nickel metal hydride (NiMH) batteries the voltage is always a multiple of 1.2V, the nominal voltage of a single cell- a 12V battery has 10 cells, a 14.4 V battery has 12, an 18V battery has 15, etc., etc.

The nominal voltage for a Lithium Ion cell is 3.6V/3.7V

Standard Zinc-Carbon or Alkaline battery cells have a nominal voltage of 1.5V.

Different batteries can put out different voltages under load and when they start to wear out. For instance the average voltage under load of a alkaline battery depends on discharge and varies from 1.1 to 1.3 V. A fully discharged cell has a remaining voltage in the range of 0.8 to 1.0 V.

Lead acid car batteries have a no-load voltage of 12.6V to 12.8V but are typically charged at 14.2 to 14.5 volts. That quickly drops to 13.2 V and then slowly to 12.6 V.

More than you ever wanted to know, huh?

[Dave Lehnert]

If you notice the Dewalt line is called 12 volt MAX. I guess a tool marked just 12 volt is a true 12 volt pack.

[glenn bradley]

This has been chewed over bit. Not as bad as router or shop-vac rating systems but, it is discussed that someone got the great idea that since 10.8 lithiums (3 x 3.6volt batteries) will show a peak of 12v, they'd call the that. Anyone who has seen a Porsche with a Volkswagen badge over in Europe can relate to the curious sensation. Be that as it may, I still call routers 2-1/4HP and Vacs 6HP. It is the jargon of our area of interest.

[Leo Graywacz]

Just like stereo systems that tell you they are 50W peak, and in tiny print they tell you it is 8 watts RMS which is really the true wattage. Or the shop vacs that tell you they are 5HP but operate on 120vac. 120vac will develop just under 2 true HP on a 15 amp circuit.

It is just a marketing hype to make you think that you are getting more than you really are.

[Rick Fisher]

Taken from DeWalt Spec's on Amazon ..

The maximum initial voltage on 12-volt max batteries (measured without a workload) is 12-volts. Measured under a workload, nominal voltage is 10.8.

The battery can be charged to 12 V .. or even slightly above, in application, it delivers 3.6V per cell or 10.8 V .. The 12V is basically marketing ..

There are many different types of Lion batteries, at various costs. Some will last longer than others and failures are starting to occur at an impressive rate.

[John McClanahan]

If your 12 volt tool uses lithium-ion batteries, it may well be only 10.8 volts. They use 3 3.6 volt cells wired in series. That equals 10.8 volts. Fully charged, with no load the cells will read a little over their rated voltage. Just add in the "Craftsman Effect" and you now have a 12 volt tool.

John

[Eric DeSilva]

The little Bosch drivers, which I think started the trend, were originally marketed as 10.8V. When everyone starting doing the same thing, but labeling them 12V, they suddenly changed and became 12V. Funny, because they still use the same batteries & chargers...

[Bill Huber]

I do agree that they are really 10,8v batteries but what I will say is the things are great. I don't know how they design the motors to work like they do but they really work great.

Milwaukee has a new larger battery you can get that last twice a long they say but to date I have just not seen the need for one yet.

I have a 14v Dewalt drill but I reach for the little Milwaukee 99% of the time and it does the job I need.

Just like everyone has said, that 6 hp shop vac on a 120v system, right.......

[Jay Allen]

I'm pretty sure that Eric is correct. The original Bosch Pocket drivers were sold as 10.8 volt, but when Milwaukee brought out it's line of compact tools....12v. So, bowing to the marketing ploy that 12v must be better, Bosch switched their newer versions to 12v "Max". Purely marketing BS.

They even went so far as to start discounting the 10.8v stuff. I have a few different tools from that line and the batteries are all the same, except for the voltage stickers of course.

[Mark Ashmeade]

Anyone who has seen a Porsche with a Volkswagen badge over in Europe can relate to the curious sensation.

Never seen that, but I have seen plenty the other way round. 914, 924, 944, 968, all were rooted in VW designs.

I suppose you could call a Beetle a Porsche in VW clothes, but Ferdi hadn't set himself up at that stage.

[Rick Fisher]

Kinda funny .

The Festool CSX Drill is new and only listed at 10.8 V ..

http://www.festoolcanada.com/products/cordless-drills/cxs-li-compact-drill-driver-plus-564261.html

Its like they didn't get the memo .. lol

[glenn bradley]

Never seen that, but I have seen plenty the other way round. 914, 924, 944, 968, all were rooted in VW designs.

I suppose you could call a Beetle a Porsche in VW clothes, but Ferdi hadn't set himself up at that stage.

I was outside London back in '72 and saw a 914 with 'Volkswagon' across the grill behind the rear windshield where we are used to seeing 'Porsche'(?). Maybe it was a joke. The tools, like a car or anything else; is what it is, regardless of the badge, eh? ;)

[Alan Schaffter]

I was outside London back in '72 and saw a 914 with 'Volkswagon' across the grill behind the rear windshield where we are used to seeing 'Porsche'(?). Maybe it was a joke. The tools, like a car or anything else; is what it is, regardless of the badge, eh? ;)

Nope- Google it. 914 was initially a joint VW - Porsche project. In addition to a troubled venture, the 914 had an identity crisis. Concern over brand identity resulted in them all being branded Porsche in the US, but not so in Europe. FYI, it was hard to tell the difference between a 914/4 and the limited import 914/6. It surprised a few street drag racers who thought they would blow away a 914 only to realize when then were passed that it was a 914/6.

[John Coloccia]

I buy my drills and drivers based on things like RPM and Torque. I don't even know how many volts my drills are labelled as. I agree, though, that I'm getting a little tired of being lied to on a daily basis. I never noticed this before because I never looked at the voltage rating, but it's just flat out impossible to build a 12V LiIon pack. I wish I had noticed the nomenclature before.

Actually, I just went and checked. I have 18V systems, but I noticed that Makita is doing the "12V Max" thing too. Had I known, I wouldn't have bought the Makita. I certainly won't buy any more Dewalt. Hitachi does the same thing (12V Peak). As Rick mentioned, Festool gets it right. I like Festool. I guess it's time to switch to Festool. I'm a firm believer in speaking with my wallet.

What nonsense.

[Jerome Stanek]

Just like sharp's 70 inch tv that is only 69.5 inches.

[Greg R Bradley]

Bosch and Makita were the first to introduce 3 cell Li tools and labeled them 10.8v since Li cells are 3.6v each. Another company decided to call their 10.8v tools "12v Max" and the others basically renamed theirs to be equal. The early Makita and Bosch batteries that were properly labeled 10.8v even have the same part numbers as the later ones that are now lying to match their competitors.

We all know the 5 cell Li tools as 18v. First Black and Decker and now Dewalt has starting lying about the well established 18v Li tools with 5 Li cells and calling their latest tools "20 volts".

I guess we just have to learn that the laws of physics are flexible depending on the gullability of the customer.

[Steven Wayne]

The thing we are talking about here is a nominal rating value.

[John Sanford]

Hmmmmm....

2x4 lumber isn't.

3/4" plywood isn't.

8/4 lumber S4S lumber isn't.

And you're getting worked up about a technically supportable voltage identification? In an application where, because of the physical form factor limitations, any discrepancy WON"T matter? :eek:

C'mon guys, your project list can't be that short! ;)

[Jason Jackman]

Power is what really matters. Amps, current, torque under load. Many consumers get trapped in the numbers marketing schemes, but it's not a direct relationship to performance. Batteries do discharge at different rates, and you may get better performance from a l-ion battery that it's output higher until it dies abruptly, than a nicad that discharges more abruptly, even if the l-ion has a lower voltage rating. If we were talking cars, you could argue hp ratings at the engine, or at the wheels, diesels with higher torque and lower hp vs. Gas engines with high hp and low torque ratings. It's whatever floats your boat. I happen to buy my tools based on their color. I think yellow, red, and green tools work better than blue ;).

[Carl Beckett]

I used to do product specification (call it technical marketing) for a major inkjet printer manufacturer. Here is what I have learned - the public is fickle.

The absolutely positively want a very simple 'number' to make purchasing decisions on. They would prefer a simple decision making process based on an arbitrary number, than actually taking the time to learn what is really important to them. In those days it was all about DPI (dots per inch), and the consumer would buy whatever had the highest DPI - no matter if it was the best print quality or not. We actually released a product that was technically able to product a high DPI, but we made it difficult to get the printer into that mode (print quality is determined by a lot of other things - the human eye/brain integrates visually, so a higher print quality could be had with lower dpi).

How many of you have ever sat down and tried to figure out just what you really needed out of a tool? By definition, you didnt start from a blank paper and just say "I need a 18 volt system" - you have to have translated from what you really want to DO with the tool (and many times, customers dont really know what they will do they just heard someone else liked that particular model or it got a good review, etc etc)

Personally, I stayed away from the higher voltage cordless because I preferred smaller and lighter weight. My thought when I started was that if I wanted a huge tool with lots of power, break out the cord.

[John Coloccia]

With all due respect, what did your company, or the industry, do to educate the public on print quality vs DPI? This is precisely why my list of companies I buy from is dwindling down to practically nothing. You say we're fickle, sort of implying that we're not capable of understanding simple concepts and you release a product with a quoted performance spec (but go out of your way to make it difficult to achieve). What have you actually done to educate the public?

It has nothing to do with the public being fickle, IMHO. We can't all be experts on every aspect of technology. It's up to the industry to educate us and to sell us on right bits of technology. Instead, we're advertised to in DPI and then told we don't have a clue because we go shopping for DPI.

So I think of all the people that have upgraded their systems because they think the 12V "max" is better than their old 10.8V system. That's really the game here, isn't it? It's crooked.

[Jerome Hanby]

Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you; if you don't bet, you can't win...RAH

[John McClanahan]

It's the dishonesty that bothers me. When you buy a gallon of milk, its not .85 gallons, and there are laws to prevent it. Kind of the same thing, the voltage claim is over 10% too high.

John

[Carl Beckett]

With all due respect, what did your company, or the industry, do to educate the public on print quality vs DPI? This is precisely why my list of companies I buy from is dwindling down to practically nothing. You say we're fickle, sort of implying that we're not capable of understanding simple concepts and you release a product with a quoted performance spec (but go out of your way to make it difficult to achieve). What have you actually done to educate the public?

It has nothing to do with the public being fickle, IMHO. We can't all be experts on every aspect of technology. It's up to the industry to educate us and to sell us on right bits of technology. Instead, we're advertised to in DPI and then told we don't have a clue because we go shopping for DPI.

So I think of all the people that have upgraded their systems because they think the 12V "max" is better than their old 10.8V system. That's really the game here, isn't it? It's crooked.

Thanks John, and no disrespect taken. I understand where you are coming from - I am a consumer myself. Im simply trying to point out that its not all that easy to provide meaningful specifications to the general public. In our case we tried EXTENSIVELY to educate the public (and the so called technical 'experts'/reviewers even. Only a very small percentage were able to get it - in part because it takes time, and secondarily because its a complex technical topic. I dont mean to belittle what people can learn - there are lots of VERY smart people out there - a lot smarter than myself to be sure. But its hard to educate a large portion of the bulk mean of the population on a technical topic. I just thought the dpi analogy was relevant here.

So I am agreeing with you - it turns into a marketing/positioning game where if you dont do it your competitor will. Eventually all the competitors (in a consumer market) have to play this game or become a niche player (ok for some, but then you have an expensive niche product as a consumer).

Definitely vote with your wallet. Ultimately, if we all quit chasing the lowest cost flatscreen tv, etc, jobs wont be moved to lower labor rate geographies. (ok - this is philosophical and perhaps not relevant to this conversation).

I was only trying to help explain one small piece of the dynamics involved in why consumer products are marketed they way they are. Im not trying to defend it. Im not wanting to offend anyone. (and am happy to take my posts down if they are objectionable)

[Thad McCulloch]

A fully charged Li cell comes off the charger at just about 4.1 volts, thus Marketing can say 3 = 12 volts. Unfortunately, almost as soon as a load hits it, it will drop back down to the nominal long term 3.6V level.

[John Coloccia]

Thanks John, and no disrespect taken. I understand where you are coming from - I am a consumer myself. Im simply trying to point out that its not all that easy to provide meaningful specifications to the general public. In our case we tried EXTENSIVELY to educate the public (and the so called technical 'experts'/reviewers even. Only a very small percentage were able to get it - in part because it takes time, and secondarily because its a complex technical topic. I dont mean to belittle what people can learn - there are lots of VERY smart people out there - a lot smarter than myself to be sure. But its hard to educate a large portion of the bulk mean of the population on a technical topic. I just thought the dpi analogy was relevant here.

So I am agreeing with you - it turns into a marketing/positioning game where if you dont do it your competitor will. Eventually all the competitors (in a consumer market) have to play this game or become a niche player (ok for some, but then you have an expensive niche product as a consumer).

Definitely vote with your wallet. Ultimately, if we all quit chasing the lowest cost flatscreen tv, etc, jobs wont be moved to lower labor rate geographies. (ok - this is philosophical and perhaps not relevant to this conversation).

I was only trying to help explain one small piece of the dynamics involved in why consumer products are marketed they way they are. Im not trying to defend it. Im not wanting to offend anyone. (and am happy to take my posts down if they are objectionable)

Thanks for the reply. It somewhat reminds me of a similar situation with a monitor I have. For about 20 minutes I thought that the monitor was somehow damaged. Then I realized that the viewing angle on it is very very tight, and it looks horribly washed out if you're not in a very narrow cone. Yeah, it's a cheap monitor and it serves the purpose I bought it for, but it's surprisingly bad. This is far more important than maximum resolution and other nonsense. :)

[Robert Chapman]

I don't really care if my Bosch tools are 12 or 10.8 volts. What I do care about is how well they work for what I do. My Bosch 12/10.8 volt tools work really well. That's why I bought them and will continue to do so.

[Jerome Hanby]

I don't really care if my Bosch tools are 12 or 10.8 volts. What I do care about is how well they work for what I do. My Bosch 12/10.8 volt tools work really well. That's why I bought them and will continue to do so.

Which Bosch 10.8 volt tools do you have and how are they working for you? I've been looking at the right angle and pocket drivers but was wondering how stout they are driving screws and lag bolts...