Serious injury from a power carver....warning very graphic image

[Roger Chandler]

the link below is a story on the WOW site where a turner got very seriously injured by a power carver..........looks like he was using the wrong technique...........please, for your health's sake pay attention to the dangers and be safe everybody!

www .thewows.com/isapi.dll/c/content/f/viewproperty/siteid/G6kOAI/contentclass/PICT/contentid/ZZZZYLUL/propertyname/Original/~/2011_09_11.jpg


The story was posted by Chris Ramsey and you can read the details there.............a terrible mishap!207641

[James Combs]

Sure looks like it got away from him. Can't imagine how it could have happened but things like this happen every day. Be careful out there folks.

[Marty Eargle]

I can't imagine he was using any worse of a technique to come away with that kind of injury...but it's hard to judge him without being present.

Really shows how quickly things can escalate unexpectedly in life.

[Chris Burgess]

Jeeze was he holding the piece under his chin?

[Steve Vaughan]

Kickback I bet. Just like a chainsaw, only shorter, and as dangerous. Wow! Very, very lucky!

[Tim Rinehart]

The thread on WoW goes like this, to clarify questions and speculation: (as submitted by Chris Ramsey on Dennis' behalf and request)

"The purpose of this post is to help prevent others from having an accident while carving legs on a bowl. I have posted several pictures of natural edge bowls with carved legs and feel a sense of responsibility to warn others of the dangers of using a King Arthur’s Lancelot carving disk. The 4 “disk is made with a small piece of chain saw chain with 22 teeth that circle the disk. The disk is mounted on a 4 ½” grinder and is extremely aggressive and dangerous and runs at 40,000 RPM’s.
WoW member and friend Dennis Doebler had seen several of my 3 leg bowls and wanted to turn and carve a bowl with legs. I had offered to show Dennis how I carve the legs so he would have a total and complete understanding of how to safely carve the legs. I made absolutely sure that Dennis understood how dangerous the Lancelot tool can be.
All of the carving I do is performed between centers on the lathe. The piece is jam chucked and the tail stock is brought up to secure the piece so that it can not move. The headstock locking pin is engaged and the pressure between centers is very strong to insure that the piece to be carved will not move. TWO HANDS AT ALL TIMES is the only way I ever use the Lancelot.
Dennis decided to carve the legs in his shop with no direction or supervision. Dennis will tell you that this was a huge mistake. The bowl was turned and ready to carve. Dennis removed the bowl from the lathe, set it on the work bench, plugged in the grinder with the Lancelot carving disk and was ready to begin carving. He sat at his stool, picked up the grinder, turned it on and held the grinder with one hand and the bowl with the other. The instant that Dennis touched the grinder to the bowl, the grinder violently jumped out of his right hand striking his left hand then surged upward striking him under the chin then powered around his neck to just below his right ear. He was air lifted by Life Flight to the University of Kentucky Hospital. His little finger, ring finger and middle finger were badly injured requiring 2 hours of initial surgery to close the wounds and an additional 3 hours of surgery yesterday to reconnect the tendons and ligaments. The knuckles and bone were ground into powder by the Lancelot and no useable bone fragments existed. The Lancelot cut into Dennis’ neck more than two inches deep, missed his jugular vein by 2 millimeters, miraculously skipped over his carotid artery, dug back in and continued cutting around his neck to just below the right ear. It took well over 100 stitches to close the injuries to his neck. Dennis said the doctors quit counting when they reached 100 stitches then continued sewing him up for over one additional hour.
Dennis called this evening, assisted in the writing of this and asked me to post this information for him. He is facing several months of healing and physical therapy before he can get back to turning.
Dennis insisted on posting this information in an attempt to help keep others safe from doing the same thing.
If you are going to use the Lancelot, please make sure the piece you intend to carve is mounted solid so that it can not move and use both hands when carving with the grinder and the Lancelot."

[Harry Robinette]

Could someone post the whole story please ( if allowed ) some of use aren't part of WOW. And I use a power caver allot!!!!!!!

[Bernie Weishapl]

I think you need to read what happened. That unit is like a small chainsaw. He had set the piece on his bench to carve legs on it. He started up the machine and as soon as it hit the wood it jumped hard out of his right hand into his left hand then jumped from his left hand to his neck missing his artery by 2 mm. It took about 100 stitches in his neck and about 2 hrs of initial surgery on his hand and 3 hrs of surgery to reattach tendons and legiments in his hand. It pulverized the bones in his left hand. This thing has a chainsaw blade with 22 teeth on it and is running at 40,000 rpm. It was just a terrible accident and he admitted he was inexperienced which caused the problem. Most of the comments of people that do use them leave the piece on the lathe and use two hands to run it. I for one think it is a mean looking, scarey machine.

I was thinking of doing a copy here but wasn't sure it was allow. Maybe someone will.

[Steve Kubien]

Harry, the whole story is he was making a bowl with three legs to be carved into it. He took the piece off the lathe, was holding the bowl in his left and the grinder in his right. The Lancelot kicked, just like a chainsaw does if you hit wood with the top of the tip.

Well, that plus the fact that Dennis will be ok, is the whole story.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks.....if you can copy and paste it here....you can.....you cannot,however, link to another forum as per the Terms Of Service....

The only thing I did was disable the link to a graphic photograph at another forum. That is not allowed. Beyond that, this thread and that photo had already been reported as requiring a warning as it was extremely grotesque and graphic.

[phil harold]

got to keep 2 hands on a side grinder,
or it will get away from you

[curtis rosche]

what do i have to do to see the pictures?

[Roger Chandler]

A picture is in the original post now.

[curtis rosche]

i hope he has a speedy recovery with no complications

[Josh Bowman]

This is copied from the WOW turners site. I thought it had some value here since not all can access the site. Read below.

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/ODyFwSwBBXbyK1UWSTFy85twT5SFU14nSn27E2j5iDbC_QCWMk ZmvA4awV-LsD_t8z1K82qR2Wt8wiU4oN8n1BpOb-6VKDwGUsailYTDae5bFi0XtPkNATBJ97TBc1byqm6CYhJyfE9i pQDFdtwEIKjK_30aoBw




Chris Ramsey (http://www.myfamily.com/exec?c=m&htx=v&siteid=G6kOAI&memberid=00069Y) - Sep 14, 2011 View | Viewers (http://www.myfamily.com/exec?SiteID=G6kOAI&ContentID=ZZZZYLUK0L&c=Content&htx=View&bPreview=1&ContentClass=NEWS)
Categories: Safety, Protection of Eyes, Lungs, etc. (http://www.myfamily.com/exec?c=content&htx=list&siteid=G6kOAI&contentclass=NEWS&categoryid=190)




The purpose of this post is to help prevent others from having an accident while carving legs on a bowl. I have posted several pictures of natural edge bowls with carved legs and feel a sense of responsibility to warn others of the dangers of using a King Arthur’s Lancelot carving disk. The 4 “disk is made with a small piece of chain saw chain with 22 teeth that circle the disk. The disk is mounted on a 4 ½” grinder and is extremely aggressive and dangerous and runs at 40,000 RPM’s.
WoW member and friend Dennis Doebler had seen several of my 3 leg bowls and wanted to turn and carve a bowl with legs. I had offered to show Dennis how I carve the legs so he would have a total and complete understanding of how to safely carve the legs. I made absolutely sure that Dennis understood how dangerous the Lancelot tool can be.
All of the carving I do is performed between centers on the lathe. The piece is jam chucked and the tail stock is brought up to secure the piece so that it can not move. The headstock locking pin is engaged and the pressure between centers is very strong to insure that the piece to be carved will not move. TWO HANDS AT ALL TIMES is the only way I ever use the Lancelot.
Dennis decided to carve the legs in his shop with no direction or supervision. Dennis will tell you that this was a huge mistake. The bowl was turned and ready to carve. Dennis removed the bowl from the lathe, set it on the work bench, plugged in the grinder with the Lancelot carving disk and was ready to begin carving. He sat at his stool, picked up the grinder, turned it on and held the grinder with one hand and the bowl with the other. The instant that Dennis touched the grinder to the bowl, the grinder violently jumped out of his right hand striking his left hand then surged upward striking him under the chin then powered around his neck to just below his right ear. He was air lifted by Life Flight to the University of Kentucky Hospital. His little finger, ring finger and middle finger were badly injured requiring 2 hours of initial surgery to close the wounds and an additional 3 hours of surgery yesterday to reconnect the tendons and ligaments. The knuckles and bone were ground into powder by the Lancelot and no useable bone fragments existed. The Lancelot cut into Dennis’ neck more than two inches deep, missed his jugular vein by 2 millimeters, miraculously skipped over his carotid artery, dug back in and continued cutting around his neck to just below the right ear. It took well over 100 stitches to close the injuries to his neck. Dennis said the doctors quit counting when they reached 100 stitches then continued sewing him up for over one additional hour.
Dennis called this evening, assisted in the writing of this and asked me to post this information for him. He is facing several months of healing and physical therapy before he can get back to turning.
Dennis insisted on posting this information in an attempt to help keep others safe from doing the same thing.
If you are going to use the Lancelot, please make sure the piece you intend to carve is mounted solid so that it can not move and use both hands when carving with the grinder and the Lancelot.

[Roger Chandler]

Josh,

I have posted a picture and the story is also on the thread I started last night. Good that you posted the pic of the lancelot cutter. Hope everyone will be very careful when using a tool like this.

[Steve Vaughan]

Point definitely well taken!

[Thom Sturgill]

After seeing one used at a symposium a couple of years ago, I bought a side grinder and a Lancelot cutter - it took about 10 seconds for me to classify it as a tool that was too scary to use, far too aggressive. I haven't turned it on since. I wish him well and a fast recovery. Be careful out there.

[Jim Underwood]

On a recent thread someone posted a picture of the HF version of this tool:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?172227-Tool-to-quot-shave-quot-out-of-round-mounted-blank&highlight=scary

My exact words were:

Gulp! :eek: Now that's a scary looking thing... I'd sure want some insurance between that thing and my hands...

Looks like there's more needed than just protection between it and your hands..

[Dick Wilson]

Ya know, on many of my brousing adventures at WoodCraft I have picked the Lancelot up and looked at it. I have always wondered the value of this cutter. I have always felt that this is a darn dangerous thing to use. My suspicions have been prooven out. There are a lot of items on the market that would be much safer.

[Hayes Rutherford]

I was wondering if it possible the grinder was being used with the blade on the right so it would want to run back? Another point would be to use grinders with a paddle switch so that if it gets away it doesn't keep running. Or how about plugging it in so the cord wants to just about fall out? I personally don't have any grinders with paddle switches but will be looking at them. I use the Arbortech wheels (both 2" and 4")for a wide range of wood removal jobs because they are not as aggressive and cut very smoothly but probably will avoid using them for awhile after seeing this post.

[Reed Gray]

From an Australian woodworker;
"Anything with sharp teeth eats meat."
"Woodworking tools have sharp teeth."
"People are made out of meat."

Start small and slow when using a new tool or technique, and then work your way on up. The tools are manageable, but most have a learning curve. Problem is some of us don't know when we are in over our heads.

Hope he heals up well.

robo hippy

[Josh Bowman]

+1 on Robo Hippy.
If you look at that tool, it's just like the end of a chain saw. And if you've ever used the tip of a chain saw on wood, it will yank the saw, however you almost always have 2 hands on the chain saw and should be expecting the yank so you're braced for it. Same thing here, you have to look at the tool you're using, understand how it works and its limits. In this case, the work has to be held independent of the user and the user has to keep both hands on the tool and brace for the coming recoil. The focus here should not be toward the tool so much as our understanding and abilities to use a given tool. To reword Reeds statement above: Woodworking is inherently dangerous.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

+1 on Robo Hippy.
If you look at that tool, it's just like the end of a chain saw. And if you've ever used the tip of a chain saw on wood, it will yank the saw, however you almost always have 2 hands on the chain saw and should be expecting the yank so you're braced for it. Same thing here, you have to look at the tool you're using, understand how it works and its limits. In this case, the work has to be held independent of the user and the user has to keep both hands on the tool and brace for the coming recoil. The focus here should not be toward the tool so much as our understanding and abilities to use a given tool. To reword Reeds statement above: Woodworking is inherently dangerous.

Josh.....I agree wholeheartedly with your statement and Reed's statement. Almost all tools.......including your lathe, toolrest, gouges etc are inherently dangerous. As quoted from an Australian woodworker.....and if they aren't sharp....they are spinning mass or turning very fast...one of the worst injuries I have experienced was drilling through a thin piece of metal on a drill press and holding the metal between a pair of pliers...until the bit snagged exiting the metal, spun the metal out of my pliers and brought the now spinning blade around at a very rapid speed into the forefinger of the hand holding the pliers.

Most often the blame is the operator and not the tool.

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

.. Most often the blame is the operator and not the tool ...

Pretty much sums up all our foibles - well said Ken.

Also, good luck to the gentleman and his healing. It sucks being the "teacher" in these situations. Godspeed.

[ray hampton]

TOOLS WILL BE DANGEROUS AND YOU CAN TAKE THIS FACT TO YOUR BANK, Ken-when you drill a hole in a section of sheet metal, clamp it between two pieces of wood with 2 c-clamps, I drill holes in car bodies before and bent the metal when the drill bits seize in the hole

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ray....I learned that lesson over 40 years ago...... My point was that even one of the least dangerous tools can be dangerous.

[Jacob Reverb]

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/ODyFwSwBBXbyK1UWSTFy85twT5SFU14nSn27E2j5iDbC_QCWMk ZmvA4awV-LsD_t8z1K82qR2Wt8wiU4oN8n1BpOb-6VKDwGUsailYTDae5bFi0XtPkNATBJ97TBc1byqm6CYhJyfE9i pQDFdtwEIKjK_30aoBw



I wouldn't put that thing into an angle grinder in a million years ... I'd sooner play Russian Roulette with a loaded automatic!

[Marty Eargle]

Ray....I learned that lesson over 40 years ago...... My point was that even one of the least dangerous tools can be dangerous.

I've probably hurt myself with a screwdriver more than any other tool in the shop. You get a certain level of comfortability with certain tools and you let your guard do...then BAM...you've got a Phillips head in your thigh.

[Alex Jay Tauer]

I've probably hurt myself with a screwdriver more than any other tool in the shop. You get a certain level of comfortability with certain tools and you let your guard do...then BAM...you've got a Phillips head in your thigh.

Or in your skull, which is a story I will share another time. Don't want to go and hijack this thread...

Jeez! Just looking at the Lancelot gives me chills. That thing is WICKED!!! Personally, I would not even pick it up off the shelf, let alone put it in a grinder and try to use it.

Hope the gentleman who got injured makes a full recovery.

[Steven Fitzgerald]

I truly appreciate the warning -- I've already sawed off a couple of finger tips.

[Richard Madden]

The Lancelot in an angle grinder is scary for sure. I have one and I have used it only a couple of times. Even though I wore Kevlar gloves and a faceshield, and had no mishaps, I decided to not use it again until I get an angle grinder with a paddle-switch rather than a slide-switch. At least it will power down if it comes out of my grip. I'm pretty sure this is recommended in the instructions that came with the Lancelot. Even with a paddle-switch grinder, a lot of damage could happen before that cutter stops. Two hands is a must! Here's hoping Dennis heals quickly.

[Bob Bergstrom]

Some years ago we had a demo from a guy who used the Lanccalot and he show a nice scar on his forearm that was about 10" long. Not a pretty story there either.

[Jeff Nicol]

I have one of these and they have a purpose, but that purpose is for fast removale of wood in a "ROUGHING OUT" type situation. With the speed and torque of an angle grinder is definitlely a 2 handed tool no matter what type of wheel is in it, I have been using them as long as I can remember and the worst thing that I ever had happen is sanding through a glove a little and giving myself a small grinder burn, and of course it was while doing a quick one handed touch up on a weld. But more on the lancelots, many of them are used by chainsaw carvers for more finesse carving on there big tree trunks as they work there magic. They are best used on the "FLAT" or with the wheel cutting more at a parrallel to the wood not perpendicular to the wood, thus like has been said it can kick back. Proxxon makes a smaller power carver that uses , I think a 2" version of the Lancelot that would be better suited for smaller carvings and it may have a variable speed control also, but not sure. But what I use are the "Kutzall" type burs that will fit in a dremel type tool or flex shaft tool. These come in many levels of coarseness and sizes and shapes so they can be used for many purposes with much better control.

Hope he heals well and quickly, someone was watching over him on that day! So like our wives, mothers and girlfriends tell us men.................Read and follow all directions and safety precautions!


Stay safe,

Jeff

[Roger Chandler]

I think you have a problem, stuff happens!! I am sorry that this person made a mistake, I wish him a speedy recovery, I think you need to get in a bubble!

Dennis,

How is it that I "have a problem?" Those who choose to think a little more about safety after seeing this post, may be very well served...........those who may disregard it may certainly do so...........I always appreciate when someone tries to help me avoid a serious injury by telling me how theirs occurred in the wood shop. If you don't care to be reminded that is your business, but I don't think you should disdain someone for trying to help and say they "need to get in a bubble."

[Bill Boehme]

Roger, I applaud your gentlemanly and well stated reply.

My best wishes go to Dennis Doebler as he begins the healing process.

[Brian Kent]

I think one built in problem with woodworking as a hobby is that we do not always learn all of the dangers and safe use of a tool before we begin.

Maybe there was something in the instructions for my $89 Ryobi table saw about kickback, but I missed it. Maybe there was something in my $39 Harbor Freight drill press instructions about a drill bit catching on a piece of un-anchored wood or metal, but I missed it. (I just checked. On the Ryobi table saw there are 50 general safety rules and 28 specific safety rules. It is difficult to read through those adequately to know what is background info and what is a specific active danger.) Over time, by reading books, magazines, and Sawmill Creek, we learn. But I, like many others, did not have a strict shop teacher (or any shop teacher) to hit me in the head with a board and get my attention.

I think we may need to actively point each other to safety videos, safety books and articles, and warning stories like this thread to help us protect ourselves.

[John Keeton]

But I, like many others, did not have a strict shop teacher (or any shop teacher) to hit me in the head with a board and get my attention.Brian, I didn't either - no shop available in school - but, my first cheap table saw took care of the "hit me in the head with a board" part!!!:eek: I learned very quickly and in a demonstrative way about kickback!

As I drift into the autumn of life, I look back on all the woodworking and other activities in which I have engaged over the years - all without instruction, and all but the last 3-4 years without the benefit of the internet. I continue to be amazed that I have all of my fingers (small pieces missing here and there!), and both eyes. My attentiveness to safety has increased tenfold over the last decade or so - I realized long ago I am no longer invincible! I am pretty sure that in my 20's, I was convinced it was impossible for me to get seriously injured or die!

[Marty Eargle]

I am pretty sure that in my 20's, I was convinced it was impossible for me to get seriously injured or die!

I'll tell ya John, I've done quite a bit of wood working in my 24 years, but it really wasn't until I started turning that I realized (read:cared) that if it came to a part of my body versus a piece of wood or metal, I'm not likely to be the winner. I honestly think taking a few cracks, smacks, and cuts in your young, foolish years is the best way to be more safety conscious in the future. It can really be difficult not to get caught up in the glory of making something with your hands and not sometimes throw safety to the wayside.

[Craig Matheny]

I own units with paddle switches the only issue is they still keep running for awhile but yes in the long run would be able to only cause so much damage then stop. Our prayers are there for a swift and full recovery.

[Bill Wyko]

I have a small grinder and took the tip of my finger off with the 2 inch version. It's still healing weeks later. Fortunately it grew back but the nerves are still a problem. My injury doesn't even close to this tragety but more evedence that this type of tool is highly dangerous. I haven't dug up my instructions for it yet but I'm going to contact the company and discuss ways to better inform the end user. While this tool will hog out material with a quickness, it'll do the same to you. There should be a warning when ever this tool is sold, posted by a retailer or shown in use. It's probably one of the most dangerous tools on the market.

[Nathan Hawkes]

Dennis,

How is it that I "have a problem?" Those who choose to think a little more about safety after seeing this post, may be very well served...........those who may disregard it may certainly do so...........I always appreciate when someone tries to help me avoid a serious injury by telling me how theirs occurred in the wood shop. If you don't care to be reminded that is your business, but I don't think you should disdain someone for trying to help and say they "need to get in a bubble."



Roger, I for one am grateful of your post. I shared it with our club today, to whom at least one member has a lancelot carver and was grateful to hear of the accident. While "stuff happens", it is important that EVERYONE know that it can happen to ANYONE!

To the person remarking on living in "a bubble", those remarks are completely inappropriate here, which is likely why your post is now absent from this thread. Having had some pretty awful "stuff" happen to me requiring major surgery, and am totally grateful of the reminders of what can happen with the tools we use. I am typically not afraid to share my opinion on most any subject, no matter whether critical or praise, but sometimes you have to remember that old parental phrase, "if you don't have anything nice to say, ....." You know the rest.

I wish a kind, speedy, and easy recovery to Mr. Doebler. I wish him strength and courage for the long and painful physical therapy that will ensue.

[Brian Kent]

Brian, I didn't either - no shop available in school - but, my first cheap table saw took care of the "hit me in the head with a board" part!!!:eek: I learned very quickly and in a demonstrative way about kickback!


That's funny, in a weird sort of way where it wasn't funny when it happened. My kickbacks hit me in the gut and fingers before I threw away the little Ryobi and bought a cabinet saw. That whole saw flexed. The fence was bent to about a 30° angle!

[Roger Chandler]

Thank you Nate............I also truly hope Mr. Doebler does very well in his recovery. I appreciate your comments!:)