Frame, hand...need a rip saw [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

daniel lane

09-14-2011, 1:58 PM

Hello, all. As always, I've spent lots of time researching but haven't quite found the answer to my question, so I'm asking it of all of you.

Thanks to LOML and LV, I have had for a little while what I believe to be a pretty decent selection of backsaws (the Veritas 16 TPI xc, 14 & 20 TPI rip dovetails, and the 12 TPI carcass rip), but as I move more toward hand tools I find I'm in need of a decent rip saw for ripping lengths of rough wood. As I'm looking to pick up several other hand tools, I'm hoping to get away with a single saw for the time being, and add to the collection as the wallet allows. In my mind, I'm thinking something filed 5 or 6 TPI rip, but I've started to wonder if I should start looking away from the classic Disston/etc. saws and perhaps go for a frame saw. I'm figuring any resawing will likely be done on my bandsaw (haven't turned in all of my electron-consuming toys, yet), so I think I just need the one. Perhaps I should be looking for a 'coarse' XC as well, I hadn't really thought about it until I starting typing.

Anyway, I was hoping that you folks could help me out. Any suggestions? Should I stick with the old 26" classic hand saw, would a frame saw like the Emmerich be a good choice for now...?

The caveat here at the end is that shop time for me is extremely valuable, so I'd rather not go the "buy old and joint/file it yourself" route. It appeals to me, but right now I'd rather get to making wood dust and shavings.

Thanks,

daniel

Federico Mena Quintero

09-14-2011, 2:06 PM

I went through this recently - trying to decide whether to finish building a framesaw, or just plunk down some money on a proper rip saw.

I bought a cheap, new Disston, 26", 5 TPI rip (in pesos, but that would be about 20 USD). It works great, and I'm sure it will work even better after I tweak it. It let me rip a 4" thick, 1-meter long slab of cedar in about 20 minutes.

I'm sure I'll finish the framesaw one day, but for now, this removed my dread of having to rip stuff, even thick stuff. It's now fun!

Joel Goodman

09-14-2011, 2:22 PM

The caveat here at the end is that shop time for me is extremely valuable, so I'd rather not go the "buy old and joint/file it yourself" route. It appeals to me, but right now I'd rather get to making wood dust and shavings.

There are several saw sharpeners who offer vintage saws that are ready to go. I have purchased from Daryl Weir and been happy, but there are other excellent choices as well. Perhaps folks with experience with them will chime in. That way you get a saw that is straight, sharp, and suitable for want you want to use it for. Do discuss what your needs are and get the benefit of the sharpener's advice.

Shaun Mahood

09-14-2011, 2:34 PM

This may be terrible advice (and I know someone will call me on it if so), but the first saw I was really happy with was the traditional Ryoba saw from Lee Valley. It satisfied my "one saw to do everything for less than $50" need very well. It seems to cut at about the same speed as my veritas dovetail and carcass saw, or at least close enough that I can't tell the difference. Might be a good cheap starting point for you, I've been extremely happy with it, especially for the price and the fact that it worked well right from the store.

Jim Koepke

09-14-2011, 2:44 PM

It really depends on what, how much and what lengths you will be cutting.

Short lengths would benefit from a 8 - 10 ppi saw being a little be less clean up with a plane afterwards.
Soft wood in longer lengths will go faster with 4 - 6 ppi.
Hard woods might be a bit of extra work with the coarser tooth pattern.

Balancing out these needs in selecting a saw for your shop practices is the main consideration in finding a saw that will work well for you.

And don't forget the rake. I was doing my rip saws at about 8° rake. My last one was done at 5° rake and is much faster cutting, though a little harder to start.

That is the beauty of doing your own filing, being able to change the rake without much work.

Even with shop time being precious, finding an old saw at a yard sale and taking the few hours it takes to tune it up can be quite rewarding in the long run.

jtk

David Weaver

09-14-2011, 2:50 PM

Western carpenter's saw, something in the 5 1/2 point range makes a nice general purpose saw. You can add a finer tooth saw later if you work with thinner stock that you want to rip, or really hard wood where 5 1/2 points seems a bit rough.

I would go vintage unless you're going to spend the money for something like a Wenzloff saw.

If vintage, I wouldn't take the hard view that you can't file it. For purposes of getting a good working saw, you might want to send a saw somewhere to get sharpened, but after it's "good", it'll be easy to touch up, and if you don't have the time to sharpen a rip saw, you definitely don't have the time to use one. A quick joint and touch up on a saw with large rip teeth takes less time than a few long rips in thick stock. I don't think I have a rip saw that took more than half an hour to file after a light joint (and by that, I mean from the shape it was in when it was put away, it takes 10 minutes to touch one up without a joint - which you can do between a full joint and sharpen - and only a little longer with a joint), and I know I have saws that took a lot less (I have some experience sharpening, but I doubt it took more than twice as long the first time I did it).

At the same time, no saws with horrific pitting, kinks or missing teeth. You can run a saw with a missing tooth without the tooth, but in the price range that you're looking (I'd say $20-$50 for a nice condition saw that just needs a joint, sharpen and maybe some minor surface rust removal), there is no reason to get a saw with busted teeth to save what amounts to not much money.

A frame saw like an emmerich with the blade at one side of the frame and not in the middle offers you no advantage in ripping, in my opinion, unless you grew up using that type of saw. I have the emmerich saw, but I still end up with one arm tired (the one that's close to the blade side), because if you try to even out the work, the hand on the opposite saw influences too much and steers the saw.

Jessica Pierce-LaRose

09-14-2011, 3:16 PM

David's got good points, and I would also say go vintage if you can find a decent example, (perhaps a creeker can help you out - I would, but my only "extra" [is there ever such a thing?] would need a little more work than you'd want to put into it) as a rip saw with large teeth is very quick to sharpen.

john brenton

09-14-2011, 4:10 PM

Firstly, the answer IMO is both.

I committed to bow saws a while back after a discussion on whether or not there is any real advantage. I had used a variety of bow saws before, but not exclusively. I always reached for my western toted 26" ripper. But I wanted to see for myself.

The first disadvantage to ripping with a long bow saw is that the handles can move. That's also the first advantage though too. For example, if you get off your line it's easier to get back on it by turning your handle and scraping back into place. With a western toted you have to gradually get back on.

Also, it can be hard to get a rip cut started if there's an integral curved object with a big plated saw. It's much easier to cut out a notch wide enough to get the thin bow saw blade in there and then rip away.

The second disadvantage would be if your ripping something wider than the gap between the cross bar and the blade...but I have yet to have that happen.

A good advantage to bow saw ripping is that you can do it at the bench. I use holdfasts to hold the board down leaving the line I'm going to rip hanging off edge. If you have any drawers on your bench make sure they are CLOSED when you do that. DAMHIKT!

The second advantage to a bow saw is that it's a joinery saw as well that is light weight, and taut, making it easier to maneuver and without the limitation of the spine of a backsaw. It's an advantage to me with something I'm making right now. I was really able to get into all the places I would have had to hew or chisel off.

I have a 26" with a 4ppi ripper and a 24" ish Ulmia model that has all the blades/webs, although I just keep a 10ppi on it that works for rip and xcut on hardwoods. The thinness of the blade really does make a difference. Ripping big stuff always stinks, but I have really come to enjoy ripping thinner wood with the 10 ppi bow saw at the bench while standing, like say drawer sides, guitar sized stuff, etc.

I used the bow saw to cut all the wood for my bench, and I had a few boards that came out almost perfect. I stayed straight, right on the line and left a smooth surface...not waxy or anything, but pretty smooth. just a few swipes with the jointer and it was good. I've always gotten great results with toted saws too...I guess my point is that they are equally good with the right technique.

daniel lane

09-14-2011, 5:53 PM

Wow, so much useful dialogue, where to begin!

Federico, I am by far not an expert, but I didn't realize that Disston saws were still made. All that aside, I've been leaning this way. I'm trying not to get hung up in analysis paralysis, but I don't want to just go purchase a junk tool that I'll regret later. I've been hoping that there is a reasonably priced, decent quality new option out there.

Joel, I'm thinking that is the route I will go. However, I've done a little research and it looks like some of the choices are quite pricey (note I didn't say unreasonably so), which when combined with thinking somewhat like Federico's comment, was the impetus behind my thought, "should I just get a frame saw and deal with this later?" Part of my thinking there was that I could get different blades inexpensively until I figured out what I really want/need. In general, I'd rather spend a bit more money and avoid fettling, for now at least.

Shaun, I appreciate the suggestion, but what I failed to pass along was that I've sort of decided to stick to western saws, I'm more comfortable with them and they fit more in line with my intended philosophy/approach.

David, your points are all well taken. I am not afraid of routine sharpening/etc., I'm just looking to avoid going the flea-market-and-fettle route. That said, part of my reasoning is because I don't have a good vise in which to hold a saw to sharpen it! (I've recently moved and building a workbench for the new home is very high on the list...one reason I'm looking at hand saws.) Still, what you've said is what is most appealing to me about the neander approach...great, now I'm spending time on eBay instead of doing what I should be doing. :p

John, you've both helped and complicated things for me! I'm going to keep reading and pondering, since I keep bouncing back and forth. If I can find a good 'starter' hand saw priced well, I may well see about getting a bow saw as well and just trying both. I can see a good reason to have the frame saw for future work, so if it doesn't work for what I have in mind right now, it's not money lost.

Thanks,

daniel

Bill Moser

09-14-2011, 6:57 PM

Daniel - sounds like you're made up your mind as far as East/West goes, but if you can afford it, you might consider picking up one of the cheaper Japanese Ryoba saws in addition to a Western rip saw. At the high end those saws can go for as much as you're willing to pay, but the entry level saws provide an opportunity to learn about a different approach to sawing for cheap.

Jessica Pierce-LaRose

09-14-2011, 8:24 PM

David, your points are all well taken. I am not afraid of routine sharpening/etc., I'm just looking to avoid going the flea-market-and-fettle route. That said, part of my reasoning is because I don't have a good vise in which to hold a saw to sharpen it! (I've recently moved and building a workbench for the new home is very high on the list...one reason I'm looking at hand saws.)

Don't let that stop you! I threw together a saw vise similar to the one featured in Popular Woodworking in an afternoon, and have been clamping it to end of my saw bench, and have had pretty decent luck using that to sharpen my saws.

Andrae Covington

09-14-2011, 10:27 PM

As others have mentioned, there are sources for old saws which have been sharpened, including some sellers on ebay who specialize in that sort of thing. Additionally, occasionally even some of the cheap old saws on ebay have been sharpened reasonably well. I admit it's uncommon, but it happens. Two of my Disston saws from ebay had been sharpened and each cost me $20-$30 with shipping. YMMV, of course.

Chiming in with J. Pierce, the Popular Woodworking saw vise is a pretty quick and simple build. I made a double version of it so the entire handsaw blade would fit; the original design was meant for small backsaws.

If you're running the numbers on different approaches, don't forget to factor in the cost of a triangle file to sharpen the teeth. It's not much but, everything adds up. To be thorough, also figure the cost of a sawset, but most saws new or old (except the high-end new ones or properly sharpened old ones) seem to have too much set, so that may not be necessary.

Jim Matthews

09-15-2011, 7:08 AM

I find the frame saw to be versatile, but difficult to keep on the straight and narrow. I use a Japanese style blade on this saw.
With a sawbench and a well sharpened Western rip saw (I use a Sandvik), I can get back to straight fairly quickly.

It bears mentioning that I can cut to the line, but jointing to straight requires a few passes from my handplanes.

It is my belief that stance and set of the saw most influence cutting straight.
Technique and sharpness of the teeth most influence speed.

David Weaver

09-15-2011, 8:07 AM

Two sprung boards in your front vise with clamps added where helpful would also make a decent saw vise, and a simple one.

I have two saw vises - the type that can be adjusted any way needed. I still don't use them, because it's nicer to file the saw in a machinist vise with two sprung boards. Less vibration, and much more even pressure at the tooth line.

Federico Mena Quintero

09-15-2011, 11:42 AM

Federico, I am by far not an expert, but I didn't realize that Disston saws were still made. All that aside, I've been leaning this way. I'm trying not to get hung up in analysis paralysis, but I don't want to just go purchase a junk tool that I'll regret later.

Oh, it's not a genuine/old Disston. I looked closely, and it says "Cooper Hand Tools", "Made for Cooper Tools Mexico", Made in Brazil. I think they are just recycling the Disston brand name and logo. (They print a *lot* of stuff in horrible black ink on the sawplate, which gets smudged as you saw and makes your wood dirty... no pretty etching on these.)

The first saw I had was a "Truper" brand tenon saw, a Mexican brand that makes some tools here and imports others from China. They are cheap, ubiquitous, and range in quality from thoroughly crappy to reasonably okay. I didn't know any better back then; the saw was terrible from the start (but it had a decent wood handle).

Much later I got a 22" (or 24") new-Disston crosscut, and I was really happy with it. That's about as good quality as you can get here, in non-exotic stores, and for non-exotic prices.

Now I got that 26" rip, and it works pretty well. The steel looks fine, the teeth are not funny-hardened and can be sharpened, the wood handle is nice and beefy and with some filing it will be pretty comfortable.

I was stuck in "analysis paralysis" as you say (love that phrase, BTW!), and then it hit me: I can build a framesaw. But to build one I need to rip the long strips for the frame. And without the framesaw I can't rip yet. So, it's better for me to get a reasonable ripsaw, learn it, and make the framesaw later - but in the meantime I *will* be able to rip stuff comfortably, whereas before I couldn't.

As for saw vises, I really like this from Steve Branam: http://www.closegrain.com/2011/06/building-lie-nielsen-saw-vise.html It is *very* easy to make with some scraps (you'll need that ripsaw!). Bonus - watch the videos he links to, and you'll see Thomas Lie-Nielsen in X-men laser goggles and an elegant vest.

David Weaver

09-15-2011, 12:52 PM

That is an excellent vise that Steve's used and shown. Saw vises don't need to be complicated ball joint cast iron things, or even wooden jobs that are overly tidy and with all kinds of levers and contraptions on them. Nicely done.

Well, not that there's a problem with any that get the job done (pretty and elaborate tools are nice, too), but it should be clear to anyone who has any kind of vise, rigging up something to file saws is little effort and time away from doing nothing at all.

daniel lane

09-15-2011, 1:52 PM

Actually, Federico, that exact article is the saw vise I had in mind. I've been reading a lot lately in preparation for a Roubo workbench build, and I love Steve's site. Lots of good info.

The problem for me at the moment is that I have zero vises right now - I could build that, but I have nothing in which to clamp it! I am setting up the new garage for a workshop and will shortly be making some working surfaces, include sawhorses. I'm unfortunately at the point where I have some flat surfaces, but no workbenches or vises. (I actually own a Jorgensen 10" bench vise but don't have anything to attach it to - the intended spot was part of an outfeed table / workbench that I built, but the top is not thick enough to mount it...so it sits in the box.) I'm thinking seriously of building a Moxon-type vise so I have something to clamp to the flat surfaces, but that would require a rip saw, which if I needed to sharpen would require a vise...I keep running into Catch-22s!

I'm taking a vacation day tomorrow in order to spend some time in the garage moving things into place and determining a layout. I hope to have some time to cut some 2x6s and plywood to make at least a saw horse, maybe two. I'm also within millimeters of just squaring some 2 by material and making the 'back' part of a Moxon (read: "wooden angle iron equivalent") so I can at least clamp that to my flat workbench and then clamp another piece to the front of it to serve as a vise. You know...MacGyver a workshop together so I can build a workshop. :rolleyes:

By the way, I do appreciate all the dialogue, you guys have helped me a lot. I'm currently looking at a couple of saws on eBay and will likely pick up one of those with a file and get to work in a bit.

Thanks again,

daniel

daniel lane

09-16-2011, 12:38 PM

john brenton

09-16-2011, 12:43 PM

There are enough clean saws out there that you shouldn't have to accept any pitting. Dark plates are fine, but I would avoid any pitting unless it's a killer saw going for dirt cheap because of the light pitting.

I consider any brand of saw, and a lot of "off" sounding brands were actually made by Disston and other big manufacturers.

I would do an ebay search of the size and TPI and go from there.

For ripping I like a high set handle.

Andrae Covington

09-16-2011, 1:20 PM

With dark plates and dark photos, it can be hard to tell sometimes about the pitting, but with so many saws available, you can pass if you're not certain about the condition. Like chisels and plane blades, the worst place to have pitting is along the cutting edges. A little bit here and there further up in the sawplate isn't going to cause you problems. But if there's a lot of pitting, the sawplate will be rough and that can drag through the cut.

Searching by size and or TPI, though a good starting point to filter out the unwanted, won't turn up all the saws that are actually the size and TPI you're looking for. A lot of sellers have no idea what is important in that regard. Many give no dimensional information whatsoever. Many measure the entire length of the saw including the handle. Often though, there will be a closeup photo of the heel and you can read the stamped TPI number. Sometimes I have used this closeup photo to count the teeth visible in that photo, then guesstimated the overall sawplate length from that.

David Weaver

09-16-2011, 2:50 PM

Okay, guys - I've been looking pretty hard for a good vintage saw, resigning myself to jointing and sharpening in order to have a good saw. A couple of questions:

Any lefties here that use a thumbhole saw? I've seen a couple that have differing levels of 'smoothness' on the right side of the handle, so I'm not sure how comfortable they would be. (I like the idea of the thumbhole saw because I have nerve damage in my primary (left) arm from an old injury...sometimes it's nice to use both hands.)
How much should I worry about pitting? I'm looking for a flat out user - no interest in buying anything collectable. Of course, I am easily distracted by....hey, look! Bright and shiny! Ahem, I mean, how much pitting is too much? Is lots of pinhole pitting better or worse than one larger spot?
I'm looking at Disstons and Atkins, are there any others I should consider?

Thanks again,

daniel

You'll be able to use two hands whether or not you get the trick thumbhole handle. That's especially true on the D8s and the #12s and other saws with large handles, but I think I've done it with some dainty handled #7 panel saws.

Light pitting on a rip saw is a threat to resale value, but not so much performance. I would try to avoid it, though, because it can be awfully difficult to tell if it's light or not light. On a crosscut saw, you don't want any pitting at the tooth line at all because it is the point at the very sides of the plate doing the shearing, and a pit makes it impossible for that point to go to the same depth as other teeth nearby.

There are gobs of good names, like john said, that aren't disston or atkins. Simonds, Browns (disston's second or third line - you're not likely to run into a lot, though), groves, spear and jackson, bay state, bishop, richardson bros, .. ... What you want to be sure of is that the saws are not so cheap such that they won't be tensioned, and you want them to have a taper grind and a reasonable thickness plate.

David Weaver

09-16-2011, 3:01 PM

One comment about bright and shiny - on a very vintage saw, it comes with a very hefty price. It is also very common on much more modern low quality saws.

well, and another comment, sort of goes with John's comment about a high handle - on a rip saw (any saw where you want to saw straight), it's nice to have a nice full plate, and usually it doesn't come at too much of a premium. For a full plate, I mean a saw that looks like

310339795701

(and i am not endorsing that seller, the price for the saw is way too high in my opinion, but it is a good example of acceptable rust and a nice full plated saw)

rather than a saw that looks like:

130574834594

(again, don't know the seller or the saw, just using it as an example and following the TOS by not posting a link to the auction)

Patience is key in getting saws on ebay, so is esnipe in my opinion - to keep you from making bad decisions and wasting all your time watching auctions.

You'll find there are a lot of sellers who sell average saws for many times what they should be, and a lot of junk in general. If you have questions about a saw, you can always ask the seller, people have been pretty good in my experience when you ask them if they'll take a picture down the tooth line of the saw or something.

Bob Smalser

09-16-2011, 3:25 PM

Any lefties here that use a thumbhole saw? I've seen a couple that have differing levels of 'smoothness' on the right side of the handle, so I'm not sure how comfortable they would be.

How much should I worry about pitting? I'm looking for a flat out user - no interest in buying anything collectable.

I don't think you'll have any problems as a leftie, but you can always modify the handle with rasp and paper to fit. A little alkenroot walnut stain on apple (photo below) and a new coat of finish and the modification won't be noticed.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9131162/271870223.jpg

Having rehabbed and used a few hundred hand saws over the decades on a commercial basis, I think your best value today is a a 28", D-8 thumbhole rip ranging fron 4-6 tpi. There are plenty of them still out there so you can hold out for a clean one. The D-8 is the pinnacle of hand saw design. In taper, tensioning and polish they are far superior to anything made today...including all the custom saws folks here fawn over. That's especially true for the pre-1928 Disstons out there. And they have enough heft to do the job, as ripping boards is pure grunt work to be accomplished as quickly as possible and later cleaned up using a plane.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9131162/398502517.jpg

For a saw vise, a couple scraps of wood in a woodworker's vise is all you need to get started. The L/N vise isn't much more sophisticated than that, except it would be better full-length so you don't have to slow down and break your filing rythm to shift the saw (most cast-iron vises have the same problem), and it would also be better mounted higher so you don't have to bend over to file. Otherwise there are a number of easily-made designs out there, including the two I use.
Each have their own advantages and disadvantages.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17976228/281479717.jpg