Electrical Panel question

[Matt Day]

We recently moved into a new house which was built in the 60's and has been updated over the years, the latest being within 5 years ago or so with a kitchen renovation and new master bath. For work I'm a Project Manager for a commerical construction so I'm used to looking for life safety issues, water issues, and punchlist items.

One of the areas I'm far from an expert at is electrical, and I need to get 220V down to my basement shop and would like to have a licensed electrician do a once over of our house's wiring. Attached are pictures of my electrical panel (100A), which as far as I can tell is completely full. I haven't done much research yet but my gut is telling me that a 100A panel for a 2500 SF house is pretty small.

On top of that, the lighting in the house is terrible. The lights upstairs that aren't plugged into an outlet is a hall light and the two bathrooms - none at all in the 4 bedrooms. So I plan to pop in lots of can lights from the attic space, and of course adding load to the panel.

I'm pretty sure I need at least a subpanel, if not a new main panel and use the current one as the subpanel to the new one. I plan to research a bit more on it, and get an electrician out here to look it over as well. I would do as much of the work as I can that I feel comfortable with. 207505207504

Could you guys/gals think about this issue and respond? Any suggestions? Thanks!

[Dan Friedrichs]

I don't like seeing multiple different types/brands of breakers mixed together in one box, so that alone would be a compelling reason to do some major upgrading. Also, as you note, most houses this size are being built with 200A panels, today.

For a few hundred dollars, you could buy a new 200A subpanel and all the breakers you would need. Replacing the panel is not technically challenging, either - it would probably only take a few hours. You're lucky that you apparently have all copper wiring - you could be in a much more difficult situation if you had aluminum. It even looks like they left plenty of extra wire (generally, it's nice to see wires come in and be just long enough to reach where they're going, so it's not a huge tangle), so you'll have some flexibility.

You do need to ascertain if you have 200A service available to the house, though - the line/transformer/meter from the power company into your breaker box may only be sufficient for 100A. Your power company should be willing to help you figure this out, and/or upgrade your service to 200A.

[Ken Deckelman]

I don't like seeing multiple different types/brands of breakers mixed together in one box, so that alone would be a compelling reason to do some major upgrading. Also, as you note, most houses this size are being built with 200A panels, today.For a few hundred dollars, you could buy a new 200A subpanel and all the breakers you would need. Replacing the panel is not technically challenging, either - it would probably only take a few hours. You're lucky that you apparently have all copper wiring - you could be in a much more difficult situation if you had aluminum. It even looks like they left plenty of extra wire (generally, it's nice to see wires come in and be just long enough to reach where they're going, so it's not a huge tangle), so you'll have some flexibility.You do need to ascertain if you have 200A service available to the house, though - the line/transformer/meter from the power company into your breaker box may only be sufficient for 100A. Your power company should be willing to help you figure this out, and/or upgrade your service to 200A.Great advice. Get that panel/service upgraded first, then add a sub-panel for the shop area.

[Von Bickley]

Great advice to up-grade to a 200 amp panel with a sub-panel for the shop area.

I'm a retired electrician and we NEVER put a 100 amp panel in a house. The smallest service we ever put in was a 125 amp service and that was on homes that were about 1200 sq. ft.

[Matt Day]

Thanks for the advice guys - and Dan, you may be getting some PM's!

Just to clarify, do you think I should swap out the existing panel for a 200A one, or should/can I use the existing as the main panel with a 200A subpanel?

I'll start digging into exactly what that will require and cost, and expore the existing service we have to the house.

Thanks again Dan, Ken, and Von!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Matt.....you should swap the panel out and you will probably have to pull new feeders to it to handle the extra load/current.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Typically the subpanel is fed from the main panel, so it's not possible to feed a 200A subpanel from a 100A main. Unless your planned shop is some significant distance away from the main panel, I'd suggest just replacing the main panel with a 200A service, and forgoing the subpanel altogether. When you add up all the circuits you need for your shop, it may be few enough that it's easier to just wire them to the main panel.

[Ken Deckelman]

Just to clarify, do you think I should swap out the existing panel for a 200A one, or should/can I use the existing as the main panel with a 200A subpanel?Replace the current main panel with a 200 amp one with 42 spaces, then add a 100 amp sub for the shop. You may even be able to use the old main for your sub if it's in good shape, but I would want all new with matching breakers in my house...but that's just me.

First call should be the power company to see what your options are for a 200 amp service.

[Mike Henderson]

Typically the subpanel is fed from the main panel, so it's not possible to feed a 200A subpanel from a 100A main. Unless your planned shop is some significant distance away from the main panel, I'd suggest just replacing the main panel with a 200A service, and forgoing the subpanel altogether. When you add up all the circuits you need for your shop, it may be few enough that it's easier to just wire them to the main panel.I'd disagree with Dan here. I much prefer to have a sub panel than to pull from the main box. One reason is that the subpanel is in my shop and I have a main breaker on it so I can shut the whole shop off easily if I need to. Also, in some situations (mine, for example), it's difficult to pull new wire from my main panel because it's mounted on the outside of the house and the house is stucco. Pulling new wire requires using conduit on the outside of the house. My subpanel is maybe six feet from the main panel but it faces inward and I can add wires to it by cutting drywall. The back side of the main panel is the living room and my wife would have my head if I started cutting drywall in the living room to add circuits - plus I'd still have to get them into the garage somehow.

So I have a very short run of feeder wire from the main panel to the subpanel and one conduit on the outside of the house.

AND, when you want to add wiring (which you will in the future) you can kill the breaker to the subpanel and work on it safely. Otherwise, unless you want to work on the main panel hot, you have to cut power to the whole house.

Finally, subpanels are not that expensive and are a one time cost. I just feel they are well worth it.

Mike

[Matt Meiser]

It looks like you have a mix of Siemens and Cutler Hammer breakers. Who made the panel? I recently had a problem that might have been caused by a Siemens breaker the previous owner installed in my Westinghouse (now CH) panel. I couldn't find where Siemens breakers are rated for CH panels and I assume vise-versa is true.

[Stan Krupowies]

I'd disagree with Dan here. I much prefer to have a sub panel than to pull from the main box. One reason is that the subpanel is in my shop and I have a main breaker on it so I can shut the whole shop off easily if I need to. Also, in some situations (mine, for example), it's difficult to pull new wire from my main panel because it's mounted on the outside of the house and the house is stucco. Pulling new wire requires using conduit on the outside of the house. My subpanel is maybe six feet from the main panel but it faces inward and I can add wires to it by cutting drywall. The back side of the main panel is the living room and my wife would have my head if I started cutting drywall in the living room to add circuits - plus I'd still have to get them into the garage somehow.

So I have a very short run of feeder wire from the main panel to the subpanel and one conduit on the outside of the house.

AND, when you want to add wiring (which you will in the future) you can kill the breaker to the subpanel and work on it safely. Otherwise, unless you want to work on the main panel hot, you have to cut power to the whole house.

Finally, subpanels are not that expensive and are a one time cost. I just feel they are well worth it.

Mike

I agree 100% with Mike. In my case the main is only 20' from my basement shop but I'd much rather only pull the 20' once instead of 15 times. With the cost of copper these days it's probably about the same cost to place a new sub-panel but you gain much more in convenience.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Mike is correct that you may prefer a subpanel for some uses. It really depends on how far away from the main panel your shop is, and how many circuits you want to add (or anticipate adding in the future). If your shop is some distance from the main, it may be cheaper to run a single feed from the main panel to the sub (versus running each individual circuit from the shop to the main panel). But if your shop is right next to the main, there may be no great reason to bother with a subpanel. Your choice, really.

[Anthony Whitesell]

You can find a post about my main panel upgrade I did in July. But here's the short story.

Contact the power company, make sure your triplex is rated for 200A or if they will have to change it out. While you're at it, verify where their "responsibility" ends. For me it was at the meter which works out best. They pull out the meter and kill the power at the weatherhead. You install a new meter socket (mine was free from the PoCo) and run the 4-0/4-0/4-0 Al SEU to the main panel. After the inspection passes, you call them back, they come out change the SEU on the house, and reconnect the weatherhead and reinstall the meter.

I had Square D, I like Square D, so I stayed with Square D. I got my new main panel from superbreakers.net for $170 (free shipping, free cover, includes 200A main breaker, p/n q140m200). Their price on breakers was better than the BORG, but I didn't need any as I resused my old ones (which I think we're agreeing that would not be the best for you). Everything else (SEU wire, ground rod and wire, JB cable clamps, etc.), I used competitor's coupons and price matching to play Home Depot against Lowe's and spent $110 for all the little pieces. In the end I spent less than $500, including the $50 permit, and a day off from work to upgrade my 100A panel to 200A.

Most of the time will be spent working with the power company, secondly spent finding a day when the company and the inspector are both available.

[Don Jarvie]

There's some good advice here. In the long run your better off getting an electrician over and give you an assessment of you whole house and how much it will cost to have the system upgraded, installing new circuits, etc. For the money you may save doing it yourself, it will take weeks for you to finish the job conpared to a few days tops. Fishing wires is a pain in the butt.

The advice about using the old panel as your sub for the shop is great. The electrician can mount the box and put in a main line for it and you can wire the shop yourself at your own pace.

[Jay Maiers]

AND, when you want to add wiring (which you will in the future) you can kill the breaker to the subpanel and work on it safely. Otherwise, unless you want to work on the main panel hot, you have to cut power to the whole house.

Mike

Agreed!
I think I could have fit all of my electrical needs into our orignal panel. However, adding a sub panel for shop stuff but leaving one set of outlets and some lights hooked to the original panel allows me to shut things down and work / change things at my leisure. Having the lights on (plus a couple of outlets) is a big bonus :)

[Ole Anderson]

AND, when you want to add wiring (which you will in the future) you can kill the breaker to the subpanel and work on it safely. Otherwise, unless you want to work on the main panel hot, you have to cut power to the whole house.

Mike

Oh, but working on a HOT panel is so much more fun!

[Roger Myers]

Matt,
Just something I noticed that was curious, and might be worth checking. I was surprised to see all 20 amp breakers, especially in a 100 amp service....I would have expected to see a number of 15 amp circuits.... Please make sure your wiring is sized appropriately for those 20 amp breakers and that somebody didn't swap 20’s for 15’s...
Roger

[Mike Henderson]

Oh, but working on a HOT panel is so much more fun!
Actually, working on a hot panel is not so bad but you have to be very careful which makes the work go slowly. When connecting wires to breakers, you can turn the breaker off and connect the wires, or connect the wires to the breaker and then install the breaker.

I don't recommend working hot but it's not a crazy thing to do. I've done it quite a number of times when I didn't want to turn everything off and felt that what I was doing was reasonable.

Mike

[I've also worked on outlets or switches hot, sometimes when I was just too lazy to go find the breaker in the main box. You just need to be very careful.]

[Rod Sheridan]

In a house, there is absolutely no reason to ever work on live equipment. This isn't life support stuff, it's having to reset the clock on the microwave.

There is the risk of arc flash injuries as well as electrocution, so why take the chance?

Regards, Rod.

[Mike Henderson]

In a house, there is absolutely no reason to ever work on live equipment. This isn't life support stuff, it's having to reset the clock on the microwave.

There is the risk of arc flash injuries as well as electrocution, so why take the chance?

Regards, Rod.

You're absolutely right. I don't recommend it at all.

Mike

[Dan Friedrichs]

You're absolutely right. I don't recommend it at all.



Rod must have a microwave clock that is much easier to set than mine :)

There isn't a real risk of arc flash on a household circuit, though - certainly the feeding transformer is <125kVA.

[Matt Day]

Guys,

Thanks for all the advice so far. I've got quite a bit of checking to do on my current system and then I need to talk with the electrical company. After I get the main things checked that you guys have mentioned, I'll post back here.

To make matters more complicated, there is a very large wire in my panel (about an 1" thick) that isn't connected to anything in the panel but I want to track it down - it goes up to the attic above and I haven't gotten a chance to get up there yet and explore further. Almost like it was for a subpanel or something at one point but I can't find evidence of one.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Does your electrical service come in buried, or overhead? It's possible that thick cable used to be the supply line if your service entered the house near the roof line.

[Dan Hintz]

Or another option is, is (was?) your A/C partially in the attic? A 1" cable is pretty beefy stuff (think 50A+).

[Bruce King]

If anyone has a Zinsco panel that is part of the meter base panel you should be aware of an unsafe design issue with these. They are designed to only be opened (the inside cover) with the power meter removed first. The cover has to be tilted towards the main lugs which lack any physical stops to prevent the cover from shorting across the unfused power. Since the power companies anti-tamper tag has to be cut to remove the power meter any safe work would have to have a permit before most power companies will install a new tag. Also, Zinsco panels (and some Sylvania) have issues with the aluminum bus bars and have been found to be a safety hazard so you should have these panels removed asap. Another panel that should be replaced is FPE stab-lok (Federal Pacific stab-lok version)

http://www.inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco.htm

http://ismypanelsafe.com/zinsco.aspx

http://www.inspectapedia.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm

[David Keller NC]

Matt - i'm surprised no one's mentioned this before, but your first call should be to your city inspection department to find out 2 things:

1) If there are any local electrical codes that you must follow, or whether they default to the NEC (National Electrical Code)

2) Whether you're allowed to work on it yourself. Laws on this vary hugely from region to region around the country. Some municipalities will not allow a homeowner to work on their own electrical or HVAC regardless of their expertise, some allow the homeowner to work on it but it must be inspected afterwards, some allow the homeowner to work on it but only from an approved permit plan issued before the work is to be done.

You don't want to get into the situation of doing a lot of this work yourself, only to find that the city refuses to inspect teh work because you didn't have a licensed electrician doing the work.

From the upgrade of your wiring & panel, the current residential NEC requires a main panel at the service entrance - outside the building. This main panel contains one large breaker for the entire residence, and sub-breakers for the sub panels (inside). If there is only one sub-panel, that might be a 40 space (or more) 200 amp panel for your breakers. However, if you wish to run a sub-panel for your shop (perhaps a 100A), that should be breakered off of the main service entrance panel, not subbed off of the interior load panel.

Finally, realize that if you wish to run two sub-panels off of the service entrance panel, you will need to break the neutral-to-ground bond in both interior load panels, and the service entrance wire must be a 4-wire (2 "hots", 1 neutral, and 1 ground). You will bond the neutrals from the 2 interior load panels to the ground inside the exterior service entrance panel.

Honestly, even though I was a licensed electrician in a former life, I would still hire an electrician for this work if for no other reason than to make the inspection go smoothly and to ensure that it's done to current code specs.

[Anthony Whitesell]

From the upgrade of your wiring & panel, the current residential NEC requires a main panel at the service entrance - outside the building. This main panel contains one large breaker for the entire residence, and sub-breakers for the sub panels (inside). If there is only one sub-panel, that might be a 40 space (or more) 200 amp panel for your breakers. However, if you wish to run a sub-panel for your shop (perhaps a 100A), that should be breakered off of the main service entrance panel, not subbed off of the interior load panel.


David, I have a series of questions on this statement. Do you have an NEC section? Up here in the NE, all main panels and breakers are inside (I do know that the requirements are different in Louisianna vs. Texas vs. NH/NE). The meter is outside and there are no disconnects or breakers in that panel (expect for physically removing the meter).

[Matt Day]

Okay - reporting back with some information (see pics). My current panel is a Murray 100A, and the breakers are a mix of Cutler-Hammer and Siemens as one of you has pointed out.

I haven't gotten around to calling the power company about the service that goes to my home (lines are run overhead by the way), but I'll call them on Monday and see what they say. The meter is designated CL 200, which from what I've read online means the meter is capable of 200A, right?

207873207874

[Dan Friedrichs]

Yes, the meter is good for 200A. The power company should verify that the overhead service is adequate for 200A, but it likely is. See if you can read what gauge of wire is running from the meter to your main panel.

[Anthony Whitesell]

My meter was also good for 200A BUT..the SEU wire was 2-2-2 (above and meter the meter socket) and the meter socket could not handle the 4-0/4-0/4-0 SEU wire diameter. So the SEU wire and the meter socket both had to be changed out. Above the meter SEU was provided and installed the PoCo, the socket was provided by them but had to be installed by me, the SEU wire below the socket was provided and installed by me.

[Matt Day]

The wire sheaths from the meter to the panel do not have anymarkings on them but one is greyish fabric and the other is brownish fabric, both about 1/2" diameter. The wires from the pole to the meter are normal black and I can make out "2 TW 600V Crescent Sythol Oil Re". The rest of the wire is covered by tape, and I'm guessing it means Resistive.

I'll talk to the poco tomorrow and find out what they have to say, and if any upgrades are required I'll see what they will do and what I'll have to cover.

Thanks again guys.

[Anthony Whitesell]

The triplex from the pole to the weatherhead uses a different rating than the SEU, because it is suspended it classifies for free-air temperature rating. Here the PoCo was responsible for the wire from the pole to the meter socket, even though it is two different wires.

[David Keller NC]

David, I have a series of questions on this statement. Do you have an NEC section? Up here in the NE, all main panels and breakers are inside (I do know that the requirements are different in Louisianna vs. Texas vs. NH/NE). The meter is outside and there are no disconnects or breakers in that panel (expect for physically removing the meter).

It may well be that this is geography-dependent. But it's also a relatively new requirement. Around here (NC), almost all residential has only the meter outside, with no disconnects as you note. However, in new subdivisions there is almost universally a panel outside that contains a meter mount but also a user-accessible load management section. Here's one manufacturer's solution:

http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/Products/Residential-Electrical/Product/Meter-Combinations-and-Mains/Pages/Meter_Combos_Product_Page.aspx

[Anthony Whitesell]

I noticed a series of rental units in town with a meter with main breaker mounted outside. I never gave it much thought until yesterday. The tub was about 6-8 inches taller than mine to accomodate the breaker, but not large enough to enclose any of the house-circuit circuit breakers. It also appeared to be a very beefy box and breaker [handle]. I'm suspecting a second motivation for a disconnect on the outside of the house (if you get my drift).

[Matt Day]

After some thinking and research, I think ideally I'd like to have is an electrician on an hourly rate to help with the connection of the main panel to the meter, which is the only part that I'm hesitant to do myself, service entry cable, and a new meter socket if necessary. The poco said they will begin their installation of the upgrade (everything from the meter to the panel) after I have the inside stuff done and inspected. I'd like to do as much as I can myself to minimize the time I need the eletrician, which I think can include installing 2 grounding rods & run the wire to the panel, labeling all the wires, opening up any drywall, and buying the bulk of the materials (panel, breakers, etc).

One question - I don't know where my current panel is grounded, but do I need to ground my water line if I ground the panel with 2 grounding rods 8' apart?

I had an electrician come by today to check out what I wanted to do and to give me a quote. Unfortunately this particular company only does work on a flat rate basis - ie it will cost this much to do this including materials, and they will not do hourly work. A very nice guy checked it all out, but his quote was over $3600 for a new 200A panel and wasn't allowed to budge. He also talked about that I had to buy a "Service Plan" to get the lower price of $3600, which includes a yearly inspection of the house to check for issues - seemed like a sales tactic to get more work (it might be good for some people).

I'll call a couple more contractors tomorrow and have talk to them on the phone a bit more before anyone comes out.

Any advice?

[Anthony Whitesell]

I think the grounded water line is separate item from the NEC. You can't see the copper ground wire running from the panel to somewhere?

The connection from the meter socket to the panel is not difficult. Look at you current one to see how it was done. You'll need to buy a small tube of NoAlOx from the BORG to put on the aluminum wires. The worst part is dealing with the very thick heavy gauge wire. It is very stiff to bend. It is also very easy to cut with a oscillating tool and metal blade if it needs to be trimmed once inside the panel. Been there, done that. Oops.

That first contractor definately is pulling a fast one sales tactic. What in the world is the to inspect on a yearly basis on an electrical system? I received quotes from $2500 to $3500 to swap my panel out. Perhaps you should your friends to see if the know have electrician they are friends with that may want some side work for tips, lunch, and beer. I was originally told the weatherhead connnection had to be made by an electrician, so I was going to "bribe" my wife's friends husband to do it. Then the PoCo changed there story and told me they were responsible for that connection, and I jumped and did the work before they changed their mind.

For driving the ground rods (I had one and had to drive a second), rent a fence post driver. It's a long tube, capped an weighted at one end with a pair of handles (check harbor freight, they had one for $25. I rented one for $8). It drive the ground rod in about 4 minutes flat 7 1/2' into the ground. Beats the heck out of using a sledgehammer.

[Dan Hintz]

I had an electrician come by today to check out what I wanted to do and to give me a quote. Unfortunately this particular company only does work on a flat rate basis - ie it will cost this much to do this including materials, and they will not do hourly work. A very nice guy checked it all out, but his quote was over $3600 for a new 200A panel and wasn't allowed to budge. He also talked about that I had to buy a "Service Plan" to get the lower price of $3600, which includes a yearly inspection of the house to check for issues - seemed like a sales tactic to get more work (it might be good for some people).
Stay far away from this company. Not only is that rate outrageous (in any area), the requirement of a "service plan" may be illegal (I can't imagine what kind of price they would charge if you didn't get the plan).

When I first moved into this house (built in '72), I told my wife I wasn't touching the electrical until the main box was replaced with something more modern. Had a 200A box installed, all circuits moved over, etc., along with some other minor work, for about $800, if memory serves.

[Ralph Butts]

Hi Matt, I am a master electrician in several states (part of my day job :D). You have received a lot of advice in response to your post. I am going to try to navigate a potential mind field here. First, you should change your service to a 200A service. Once you decide to make the change your local inspector has the right and duty to make sure that your complete installation is up to the current adopted code in your jurisdiction. I am not licensed in OH so I cannot speak to all of the notable requirements. I can however tell you that you will never be allowed to use breakers not listed for use in any panel. Replacing a service is never a job to perform live as the service entrance cables must be changed out not just the panel. In other words a 200A panel with 100A wire will not provide you with 200A of capacity. You can PM me if you have questions. In WA home owners can perform electrical work on their property but must still have the work inspected. This is not a job I would recommend for a home owner to take on without possessing a good electrical background. I hope you at least find some useful information in the post.

[Matt Day]

I got 2 more quotes over the past couple days. Again the first was for $3600, the second was for $2050 for everything and $1775 if I do the grounding myself, and the third was for $1150 if I do the grounding. The ground will consist of two 5/8" 8' rods with #4 wires, as well as #4 wire to the water main with bonding jumper.

I think I'm going to go with the low bidder on this one but not just for financial reasons. I feel I understand the scope of work enough to know the job does not cost $3600 or even $2000.

A couple questions:
1) one of the main reasons, other than safety, is to get 220 down to my basement shop, where there is already 110. Do you all think that for now I should run some romex down there to get an outlet, or should I plan for a subpanel?
2) As I plan to add more circuits to the main panel at some point, how should I allow for access to run these circuits so I don't have to cut drywall each time? There is a crawl space above the mudroom where the panel is, so I would plan to go up there somehow. Should i have some kind of chase?

Thanks for all the help so far!

[Anthony Whitesell]

I suggest doing a cost analysis for installing the subpanel versus running individual romex runs. I don't recall how my numbers worked out exactly. I ended comparing the cost of one 2/2/2 cable across the basement for a 100A subpanel versus the cost to run 12ga romex the same distance and figured out how many 12ga runs it would take to become more expensive than just running the 2/2/2 to a subpanel (which was going to be my old main panel). I think it turned out to be about 10 runs (ie., circuits). Knowing I did not need 10 12ga circuits for the shop, I opted for just the romex runs (most of which were already there).

[Ralph Butts]

Check the references of your bidding contractors. Also check with your state electrical licensing board website, they usually maintain a list of all electrical contractors and electricians and reveal all infractions and license status. Make sure the proposals include copper service entrance cables not aluminum or copper clad aluminum.

If you are comfortable with the low bidding contractor along with installing the two ground rods and the bonding of the water main then go for it. Remember that it is your responsibility to check on the contractor before you sign a contract, be sure that the scope of work and payment are clearly defined in the contract. Most importantly be sure to get an unconditional lein release from the contractor before making your final payment.

Get a permit so the job will be inspected both the contractors work plus your own grounding.

If you can make a chase in the sole plate leading to your crawl space that will allow you to pull a branch circuit large enough to supply a sub panel in your basement. This will allow you to run your equipment branch circuits or outlets in presumably shorter runs and completely within the basement. Hopefully your basement stud cavities are exposed or at least less critical to repair the drywall.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Make sure the proposals include copper service entrance cables not aluminum or copper clad aluminum.

Where do you get copper service entry? None of the electrical supply stores, the BORGs, or the power company sell or used copper service entry around here. They all had and used aluminum 4-0/4-0/4-0 SEU.

[Dan Hintz]

Make sure the proposals include copper service entrance cables not aluminum or copper clad aluminum.
There is nothing wrong with aluminum service entry... I've had it in every house I've ever lived in. It gets a bad rap from the issues with point-to-point wiring.

[Ole Anderson]

I wired my shop a piece at a time as I got tools. Which means that I had to run back to the panel each time I wanted to add a circuit. Fortunately my buddy's dad was an electrician when I wired my house 37 years ago and he recommended to go with a 200 amp panel even though I only had a 1500 sf home. I was just a young whippersnapper way back then, but being a budding engineer, saw the wisdom in the recommendation. Very good move. Looking back, if I were to do it again, I would put a sub-panel in my shop simply so I wouldn't have to pull wires all the way from the main panel, and, more importantly, so the breakers were in the shop where they were quickly accessible. But 37 years ago, I had no idea that I would have 4 tools that required 220 volts. Plan for the unforseen.

[Ralph Butts]

I did not say there was anything wrong with Al wire, but to explain my comment a little better:

In my 20+ years in the electical industry the problem with Al wire is in the installation thereof. Many electricians (and I know because I have fixed my fair share of this particular mistake) ring the wire when attempting to cut the sheat for insertion into either the meter or service lugs. This often results in the effective reduction in the cross sectional area of the conductor when performed improperly. This results in overheating and in extremely neglegent cases fire hazards. Also size for size Cu has better conducting principles and will carry more current for a given size.

I cannot speak to your area of the country but out west in my area I have never had a problem getting Cu entrance cabling. It is however more expensive and in the home building industry often overlooked for the less expensive Al type.

[David Keller NC]

I got 2 more quotes over the past couple days. Again the first was for $3600, the second was for $2050 for everything and $1775 if I do the grounding myself, and the third was for $1150 if I do the grounding. The ground will consist of two 5/8" 8' rods with #4 wires, as well as #4 wire to the water main with bonding jumper.

I think I'm going to go with the low bidder on this one but not just for financial reasons. I feel I understand the scope of work enough to know the job does not cost $3600 or even $2000.

A couple questions:
1) one of the main reasons, other than safety, is to get 220 down to my basement shop, where there is already 110. Do you all think that for now I should run some romex down there to get an outlet, or should I plan for a subpanel?
2) As I plan to add more circuits to the main panel at some point, how should I allow for access to run these circuits so I don't have to cut drywall each time? There is a crawl space above the mudroom where the panel is, so I would plan to go up there somehow. Should i have some kind of chase?

Thanks for all the help so far!

Matt - Yes, you're going to really wish you had a sub-panel for the shop if you just install outlets from the main breaker panel. There are multiple reasons, not the least of which is what Mike H mentioned, which is killing the power to the shop machines from a panel with one switch. This wouldn't matter to me (no kids), but if I had kids in the house, there'd be no question about a sub-panel with a padlock.

From the standpoint of running more circuits, the NEC doesn't require you to put more drywall up to meet code - you could leave it open until you get most everything to your satisfaction.

[Matt Day]

Thanks for the comments guys. I looked up the contractor's license and he checks out.

I think I'm going to just run 1 run of Romex to my basement for now for the 220 tools. I just need to get the shop up and running, then when I'm happy with the layout maybe I'll run a subpanel.

Try as I might, I for the life of me can't find where my existing panel is grounded. The neutral/ground bar has individual neutrals and ground as usual, at the bottom is the poco's neutral, and at the top is about 10 wires twisted together that come from house circuits. Given I'm not rooting around in there completely, but I can't see where a larger ground wire is anywhere (and there's no ground on the water line). Is it possible my panel isn't grounded at all?

If I can find existing ground, it will minimize what grounding I have to install.

I'm planning on having him start next week, but I need to get his estimate in writing first (he told me over the phone yesterday).

[Ralph Butts]

Hi Matt, here is my two cents for what it is worth. Regardless of what currently exists in your panel the contractor is going to replace the panel, the service entrance cables and the load breakers and most importantly the bonding jumper. If I am correct from your last post you will then be responsible for driving the two ground rods and connecting the grounding electrode conductor (new). Then all you will have to do is install the bonding jumber to the water pipe. I think you can effectively ignore any components you find related to the existing service grounding electrode and bonding jumpers since you are (and want to) install these items new. I say this because you have raised the possibility that the existing grounding electrode conductor may not be installed. Since your existing service is 100A your existing grounding electrode conductor will likley only be a #6 or 8(Al or Cu respectively). If it was installed incorrectly or God forbid it is just buried in the ground you don't want to reuse any of this existing system. Not to mention the electrode conductor for your new 200 A server must be a #2 or perhaps even a 1/0 depending on the type of wire used. Grounding is a life safety issue and if it were my house and I was replacing the service I would just drive the rods and run the new grounding conductor along side the service conductors coming into the panel. The water main bonding jumper is really not that bad to install. It doesn't have to be pretty, a clamp some green or bare Cu then land it on the existing bonding jumper lug in the panel.

[Richard Jones]

minimum size of a grounding electrode conductor for a 200 amp service is a # 4 copper (or #2 Al, which I've never seen).

Rich

[Dan Hintz]

Many electricians (and I know because I have fixed my fair share of this particular mistake) ring the wire when attempting to cut the sheat for insertion into either the meter or service lugs.
I can see this happening, but you have to be pretty ham-fisted to create a deep cut. A seriously deep cut may reduce cross-sectional area, what, maybe 10%... way more than it should ever be, but I can't believe that's serious enough to cause fires (though if they're cutting it that deep, they likely made other contributing mistakes). It's easier to lose a larger percentage to nicking a wire when the wire is small... for large-gauge wires, you have so much more leeway.

[Matt Day]

Just a question about the grounding wire: I know it's supposed to be #4 bare copper wire, but it's supposed to be continuous I believe so I was going to start the wire run at the city side of the main water shut off valve, jump it across the meter to the house side, then go outside to the two 5/8" eight foot ground rods, then to the panel. All wire attachments will be with mechanical ground clamps (the ones that you screw two bolts to tighten it down), and I'll use those regular white plastic wire clips with nails to attach the wire to the walls/ceiling where necessary.

Does this sound like the right plan?

Thanks guys, it will be nice to have this done so I can get some power to my machines!

[Anthony Whitesell]

Pthers will have to chime in on the connections, as I don't have city water and my plumbing does not get connected like yours. I can say that my inspector wanted it continuous as you mentioned, and for the placement of my second ground rod preferred the wire run on the outside of the house (I didn't care, so I did as he asked). My first ground ground was installed in a hole drilled through the slab (and then sealed) directly below the sub panel. When my PoCo rep came out to check the current equipment before authorizing the upgrade on their side, I asked him where he suggested I drive ground rod #2. As they need to be six feet apart, to the left was the porch, straight out was the driveway, to the right was the asphault walkway. The only option left was around the corner along the front of the house. That made the ground wire almost 15' long, running 3' up from the panel, 1' out over the foundation, 2' to the corner, 1' along the house to be back even with rod #1, then the 6' run. But I have a "surface drain" of 1 1/2" gravel 2' deep along the front of the house, so the run went 2' down and 1 1/2' out. I dug up the gravel and drove the ground rod through the bottom of the drainage ditch and clamped the ground wire with a burial rated clamp (not all are). To avoid the gravel chaffing the wire, I put spiral wrap wire loom around it where it was running near the gravel. I didn't want the wire laying on the ground or buried for all the distance, so I used the plastic cables clips and used some short tapcons to attach it to the top edge of the foundation out of side and harm's way. This piece was a heck of a project in and of itself, but was really the best solution and the inspector liked all the extra precautions.

[Matt Day]

After I install the bonding jumper at the water main, I plan to get the 4 bare outside to the two ground rods as soon as I can. These 2 ground rods are in a planter bed in front of my house - located there because the rest of the possible locations are either asphalt driveway or concrete walks. After the ground rods the wire will travel about 30' to get back to the panel, for a total run from the wate meter to the panel of about 70'.

Does it matter if the ground wire is on the inside or outside of the house after the ground rods and before the panel? Once it goes outside to the ground rod, should it stay outside as long as possible? The wire needs to go passed my garage entrance so it would have to be run in a visible location. If I can come back inside it will be unseen.

[Matt Day]

Just to close the loop on this for anyone reading it in the future:

I ran the #4 solid ground wire from the water meter outside to both ground rods, and finally back into the house to the panel. I also tied the hot water to the cold water with a small piece of wire. This cost about $200 after all was said and done.

I had the low-bidder do the panel/socket/mast install last Thursday for $1150. I'm glad I was there, to babysit a little as well as to learn about the house's wiring and the new installation.

I had the inspection done today and it passed without a hitch. It wasn't exactly the most thorough inspection I've seen done, but I'm not complaining! I'll call the electrical company and have them upgrade thier lines (no charge) as soon as they can.

I also ran a 220V circuit to the basement and finally have power to my TS and jointer, now I just need to clean up the job and get it organized so I can use them!

So my total cost was about $1400 and my time to upgrade my panel from 100A to 200A.

[Anthony Whitesell]

So as of right now you can draw more current by your main panel (200A) than the power companies overhead lines to your house can handle?

[Dan Hintz]

So as of right now you can draw more current by your main panel (200A) than the power companies overhead lines to your house can handle?
I read that the same way and it has me worried...

[Dan Friedrichs]

I read that the same way and it has me worried...

Don't worry - the fire will be outside :)

[Matt Day]

I guess technically you're right, but I only added one 220V circuit and the rest are the same. And being the Fall there is no AC running, and I don't plan on turning on all major electrical devices at one time then going to the basement to joint some boards, so I'm not worried. The poco is coming out in the next 3-5 days to "check if the service need to be upgraded" (which it does).