Why are drills and braces so neglected?

[Bill Moser]

So, I just got my new Lee Valley Sept. 2011 catalog today -- the one with all the drills on the cover. I have no idea what the beast in the center is (can someone help there?) but I recognize among them my Goodell-Pratt 5-1/2, and my late-model Millers Falls #2. I've been thinking about drills and braces lately, after using them for attaching breadboard ends and drilling out mortises on my latest project. I bought the #2 after my GP broke down (jaw spring broke, now fixed), and just picked up a GP 329 at the LFOD auction in Nashua NH this past weekend for $4. What I'm wondering about is why are drills and braces not represented in offerings by the new-old tool makers, like Lie Nielsen and Lee Valley? All I see in the new tools realm is ugly (e.g. schroeder drills/braces), and not nearly built to the quality that the old stuff is. I picked up a mint stanley #921 brace a few years ago for about 30 bucks -- ridiculous for such quality! Wiktor Kuc *restores* them, but no one *makes* them -- why is that? Why not a new GP 5 1/2B with the ratcheting mechanism? Or a new spofford brace with pewter rings? Or an Ultimatum, or North Bros., for that matter? I mean, I'm all for beautiful chisels, planes, and saws, but I'd like to see the lowly drill and brace get the respect they deserve, and the life which could be breathed into them with new/re- manufacturing.

P.S. Yeah, John Economaki made a few of each back in the day, but that doesn't count :)

[Joel Goodman]

i think because there are so many excellent vintage braces and drills! They're pretty basic and seem to be in good supply. I love em.

[Jim Koepke]

Considering how much a quality brace would cost off the shelf, very few would feel the need to own a new one.

jtk

[Andrae Covington]

i think because there are so many excellent vintage braces and drills! They're pretty basic and seem to be in good supply. I love em.


Considering how much a quality brace would cost off the shelf, very few would feel the need to own a new one.

jtk

I think Joel and Jim have the two main reasons, and while I agree with them, it does seem a little surprising that one of the high-end hand tool makers, or some enterprising garage metalworker, hasn't made new ones. They'd certainly be expensive compared to non-collectible vintage options, but so are handplanes and saws, and most chisels. A finely cast and machined new brace wouldn't wobble around like some of my vintage ones... hey but at least they were cheap.:rolleyes:

I have no idea about that multi-geared gizmotronic breast drill in the center of the cover photo, but it's awesome.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/images/item/Extras/2011ww.jpg

Lee Valley catalog covers (http://www.leevalley.com/us/home/page.aspx?p=57686&cat=)

[daniel lane]

A good question! I own a couple of eggbeaters and am looking for a good brace or two, and have been asking myself the same thing. Lee Valley sells a new brace made in France (is that the Schroeder to which you refer, Bill?), but I've balked a little given what I've heard about so many of the vintage models as far as quality vs cost - and I don't have any quality info on the one LV sells. (Part of the issue for me is that my shop time is extremely limited, so I don't want to spend it refurbishing an older tool, and it's hard (for me) to find refurbished braces without trolling eBay, something I really don't like to do.)

One of my eggbeaters is a 'new' surplus Sogard that is at least 10 years old, IIRC. Don't think that counts, though, does it?

I'm interested to see where this discussion goes.


daniel

P.S. (edit) Found another thread in which Rob Lee basically says the one they sell from France is because some people need new. I get the impression it's not as good a quality as some of the older braces.

[Rob Lee]

So, I just got my new Lee Valley Sept. 2011 catalog today -- the one with all the drills on the cover. I have no idea what the beast in the center is (can someone help there?) but I recognize among them my Goodell-Pratt 5-1/2, and my late-model Millers Falls #2. I've been thinking about drills and braces lately, after using them for attaching breadboard ends and drilling out mortises on my latest project. I bought the #2 after my GP broke down (jaw spring broke, now fixed), and just picked up a GP 329 at the LFOD auction in Nashua NH this past weekend for $4. What I'm wondering about is why are drills and braces not represented in offerings by the new-old tool makers, like Lie Nielsen and Lee Valley? All I see in the new tools realm is ugly (e.g. schroeder drills/braces), and not nearly built to the quality that the old stuff is. I picked up a mint stanley #921 brace a few years ago for about 30 bucks -- ridiculous for such quality! Wiktor Kuc *restores* them, but no one *makes* them -- why is that? Why not a new GP 5 1/2B with the ratcheting mechanism? Or a new spofford brace with pewter rings? Or an Ultimatum, or North Bros., for that matter? I mean, I'm all for beautiful chisels, planes, and saws, but I'd like to see the lowly drill and brace get the respect they deserve, and the life which could be breathed into them with new/re- manufacturing.

P.S. Yeah, John Economaki made a few of each back in the day, but that doesn't count :)

Hi Bill -

Ya didn't like this one? : http://www.leevalley.com/us/images/item/Extras/2005_06ww.jpg

The basic reason no one makes a high end brace anymore - is that it's just not that marketable. As you've pointed out - you can get a great brace for less than $50 used. Or you can get a brace of braces used, and have one for each size of bit you commonly use. I guess that means that a brace can really be looked at as being a handle - and not a "real" tool. Then too - it's hard to find quality bits....

Don't get me wrong - I like braces.... have a few hundred of em... just not in hurry to make 'em...at least, until the used market disappears :)

Cheers -

Rob

[Chris Fournier]

Simply put, they're not cost effective. Excluding used that is.

[David Weaver]

it does seem a little surprising that one of the high-end hand tool makers, or some enterprising garage metalworker, hasn't made new ones.

I'm sure you've seen it, but, George's Bronze Drill (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?108202-A-bronze-drill-by-me)

I think you're meaning for purchase, though, eh? I like making planes, but they can be done with nothing but a cordless drill and the right hand tools, even and especially infills. I couldn't imagine trying to make a functional drill.

[Chris Fournier]

I'm sure you've seen it, but, George's Bronze Drill (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?108202-A-bronze-drill-by-me)

I think you're meaning for purchase, though, eh? I like making planes, but they can be done with nothing but a cordless drill and the right hand tools, even and especially infills. I couldn't imagine trying to make a functional drill.

Yeah to make that you need to be a machinist. But before you can machine anything you need to make patterns and that's something altogether different, you'd need to be a pattern maker. Making stuff is easy, you just have to be good at everything. And once you've made your drill, you can hunker down and learn to use it or gawd forbid you can get cracking on making your own drill bits...

[Jim Koepke]

Don't get me wrong - I like braces.... have a few hundred of em... just not in hurry to make 'em...at least, until the used market disappears :)

Cheers -

Rob

Sounds like something for your great-great-great-grandchildren.

jtk

[george wilson]

I must say,I have seen some nice brass drills,Ultimatum braces,etc.,and own several eggbeaters. BUT,using 18th.C. boring tool were the least favorite tools to use in the museum. Those harpsichords have hundreds of small holes in them,too! I made a decent bow drill for doing that. Actually,I didn't mind using pump drills,and made quite a few to sell,and also made many little spade point drills for others to use.

One time we were going to the Kutztown flea markets. I had made 6 pump drills,and had them sticking up out of my back pack. No signs on the back pack,either. I sold every one of those pump drills in 1 day!! Made enough money to pay for the trip and purchases!!:)

It was drilling the larger holes that I found less than satisfying.

P.S. I DO need to get some spade bits made for that bronze drill. It only takes 1/4" shank drills-non adjustable chuck. Need to make a box for the set,too,like Derek.

[Dave Anderson NH]

There are indeed a lot of good and almost as many excellent quality eggbeaters and braces available used for pretty cheap money. Making new ones of equal or near equal quality in anythng other than "one offs" is a difficult and expensive proposition with major tooling and other up front costs before even the first drill is sold. Who wants to go through a series of expensive prototypes and then spring for the patterns, castings, machined parts, forgings, and then deal with the final machining, painting and then the assembly only to find the market is really small. Even small scale manufacturing is expensive and small production lots equal high retail prices. Would you want to invest $50k to $100k in order to take 5 years to break even? It is almost the joke about how to make a small fortune woodworking.....start with a large one.

[Bill Moser]

Yeah, Dave, you're probably right, and you have way more experience at it, so I suppose I should take your word for it (but not quite yet). And by the way, George and Rob -- you guys are totally hijacking my thread! George, your bronze drill is spectacular. If I had anything like that in my little shop, I might just give up any semblance of actual woodworking and just stare at it all day. But that's not the point. It's possible to buy planes, chisels, saws, and drills on auction sites and elsewhere for cheap, if you're willing to put in the time to fix them up. For the former three categories, you can also buy new, and get the quality you expect from the old tools, often better, and with new ideas applied. And if you need the parts to fix them up (blades, chip breakers, totes/knobs etc) those are available, too. For drills and braces, on the other hand, you have no choice other than to fix up those old tools. Which is simple, if all you need to do is remove the "green goo" from a bell-system brace, but harder when you have a GP 5-1/2 with a temperamental F/S button. All I'm asking for is the same engineering brains (and whatever economies of scale you apply) to be applied to the task of building a new/old drill, or brace -- the same skills that LN and LV have applied to what look to me to be much harder challenges in the plane realm. Damn, is that really so much to ask:)?

[Jim Koepke]

A chisel is a piece of steel with a handle.

A saw is a couple of pieces, if it is a back saw, some screws and a handle.

A plane is more complex with a couple of castings, machining, a bunch of threaded fasteners, a couple of handles and a bit more assembly.

A drill gets even more complex because of the parts that have to be in motion when it is doing what drills do. If the center line between the tip of the bit and the palm pad on a brace are off by just a little, the user will notice. Add to that the bearings and holding devices and you have a manufacturing nightmare that has a hard time beating what can be picked up for a song in many cases every weekend in yard sales and flea markets.

Sure there is a lot of less than great braces out there, but they still work. There are also a lot of very good old boring tools out there.

Another problem may be the modern day wood worker is more likely to buy a cordless drill for most of their work.

jtk

[george wilson]

My egg beaters are cordless.

[Bill Houghton]

I think there may be another reason, in addition to the high cost of new and the wide availability of used hole-making tools. Planes are used (predominantly) in support of finished, visible surfaces. Chisels have so many uses that a good one, two, or set of them is very important. Boring equipment is used to make holes that, 90% to 99% of the time, aren't visible when you're done (the main exception that comes to mind is the creation of holes for handholds in drawers and boxes); so it's harder to justify the price that would be necessary to make a high quality new eggbeater or brace.

I will hereby confess that most of the holes that I drill/bore in the course of my work get there by way of electricity.

[Bill Moser]

Ok, I'm convinced -- for all the reasons you've all given, there's no market for it. Just to put the last nail in the coffin, I looked through a few stanley, goodell-pratt, sargent, etc manuals from the early 20th century. If the same basic price ratios among tools hold today as they did then, a new GP 5 1/2 would set you back somewhere in the neighborhood of $200-300. Add a ratcheting mechanism like the later 5 1/2B or the 259, and now you're talking $300-400, maybe more. I think I'll stick to my not-so-shiny antiques, or maybe send one to Wiktor K for a makeover :rolleyes:

[daniel lane]

You guys convinced me, as well. Went out and bought a 2101A-10 off eBay yesterday. Even with shipping, I'll have enough left over for some bits and still won't have spent the price of the newer one that LV sells, and I have no fears as to quality.

On the other hand, I think I just slipped further down the slope...



daniel

[John Coloccia]

If it hasn't already been mentioned, I find my electric and cordless drills to be far easier with very little downside. I'm a fair weather neanderthal, and I suspect most of us are (maybe not on SMC but in general). I use hand tools where they get me an advantage, and I suspect that I'm the norm. Also, I can buy a vintage brace for $5.00 at my antique dealer. All it has to do it turn and hold a bit. Pretty simple to get right, even 100 years ago :)

[Bill Moser]

Daniel - good choice for a first brace, I just picked up an 8". With mine, the "green goo" problem meant that the ratchet mechanism didn't work. If you have this problem, its a fairly simple fix, as long as the piece if spring steel in the ratchet mechanism isn't busted -- see George Langford's excellent writeup here: http://www.georgesbasement.com/fs2101a.htm

John - I have found my 18V Makita indispensable for hanging drywall, and other operations when you want one hand holding the work. On the other hand, not only do the eggbeaters offer finer control (much easier to slow down and think if you need to) but they're prettier, more fun to use, and never run out of juice :)


(http://www.georgesbasement.com/fs2101a.htm)

[Eric Brown]

A new Ultimatum kit would be nice. If someone like TFWW or St James Bay or ??? made the castings and the other parts, put them into a kit for $100 bucks or so, I would get one just for the satisfaction of doing it. One thing I noticed in my tool studies is that initially a tool was developed, then improved, and then they tried to make it cheaper. The best older tools seem to have been made in the late 1800's and early 1900's. The exception to this of course are many of the fine modern tools made in the last ten years by companies who put their reputations ahead of profits. Unfortunately they are typically limited in manufacturing and must limit their offerings to what they think will sell. The LV Tucker vice is a good example. Sales dropped and costs went up so they stopped producing it. At one time Rob said he was considering having it built by someone else but apparently it's not high on the to-do list. I like how Joel at TFWW offered the saw vice. He had preliminary sales that helped determine potential demand. If enought people got together with a request for a special tool, I'm sure someone would make it. Money talks.


As for my favorite brace, it would be the ball-bearing models for heavier boring and the smaller all metal braces for lighter work (like spoon bits, forstners, etc.). So my favorite depends on the job.

Eric