Charlie Fox
09-12-2011, 1:24 PM
.....and i am being foolish or brave by going into new waters without a clue but hey, thats just me. i have been lurking a few weeks and finally decided i should ask my question, even at risk of ridicule (no one really does that on the internet now, do they?) ;-)
my past experience at finishing has been just the old slap on of poly, or just enough BLO to make a picture frame look good and be done. this is a tad more serious though. bear with me as i try to present all the pertinent facts and history.
see photos below. these are laminated red oak, i had the lamination stage 90% finished when life got in the way and they were then neglected and left in a hot southeast texas attic for <GULP> 24 years. therefore, the wood is pretty much as dry as wood can get so i decided i needed some oil in the pores. hence my choice was a tung oil based finish topped with urethane, i want some build up for a nice gloss and protection from wear. obviously these are built to last, i figure future owners will refinish every 50 yrs or so. i have one that is 25 yrs old that i finished with wipe on poly only, no sanding or buffing or waxing, it has held up well but is mainly a decorative piece and is rarely ridden.
so with this i started with 2 coats of raw dark tung oil cut 50/50 with mineral spirits. i applied very heavy coats - just sopping it on, waited 30 minutes, then wiped off the excess. 10 hours between coats. i really really like this wipe on/off method because i feel like i am getting good penetration, and when i wipe off i can see that virtually all of the lint/dust comes off with it, verified by that when it is dry (or close to it) it may still feel oily of course but i feel no bumps from dust or lint. i follow up every 1/2 hour 3-5 hours and wipe off and seepage i find. at this stage i am very pleased with the looks.
now, as you can see this is a complex shape - many nooks and crannies and every possible exposure of grain, often on adjacent pieces as well as curve transition. another reason to sop it on thick on end grain, etc, for max penetration. but also for this reason i really want to avoid as much between coat sanding as possible, it is just too difficult to sand consistently with the grain and the nooks and crannies, etc. so, i decided against going through a typical 4-6 coat process of poly. BTW, the horse in the background was done in this manner, but with no sanding. it is really a quickie learner model - learning some new carving methods and learning from mistakes - the biggest mistake being that after 2 coats of poly i thought i was done, so now am adding more coats in thin wipe on layers, again wiping off the dust lint as opposed to sanding. it is working ok i guess, but this horse was not sanded nearly to the same detail as the more recent one, so i will never get that perfect finish anyway - another mistake learned - but it had some major flaws from the 24 yrs of neglect and abuse and is really not worth putting in all that level of detail. the second horse, however, is in great shape and worthy of the time. it was sanded perfectly in a 60 - 120 - 150 grit sequence, with all the curves and nooks and crannies and being carved and grinded you can imagine there were a lot of scratches and lumps to remove.
now comes where i leaped before looking. on the other horse i used General Finishes Arm r Seal urethane/oil topcoat (GF). Nice finish, but it dries fast and never has an oily feel so i question how much it really has. i want the oil, even considered all pure tung oil, reducing the MS, then topcoat, but that would take weeks i am afraid. so i mixed up about 40% of the GF, 30% regular pure tung oil, and 20% MS to thin. i have 2 coats of this on at this point, using the wipe on/off. i see/feel no lint or dust .
so after all this what i am wondering is:
A) is this totally stupid or not a bad idea? i am expecting to have to put on 6 to 8 coats in this manner since i wipe so much off, but i know i am getting penetration. i wipe on a little at a time until the rag is fully saturated and i wring out excess onto the horses back, and keep wiping until i can wring no more. it is not evaporating so it must be going in.
B) assuming this not totally stupid, do i have to wait until the previous coat is fully dried/cured before another coat? after 6-8 hours it reaches a stage where you feel a slightly sticky oily feel, but no residue, no finger prints, very smooth with no lint or dust, no seepage, its just not slick, and not really wet either. i figure this is enough as long as i am coming over it with the exact mixture.
C) still assuming i am on the right track, i am planning on finishing with a topcoat of the GF only. for this coat i can wait until totally dry/cured, assuming this happens in 48 hours or so. after 6-8 coats as above, how many coats of GF should i expect to apply? i want to avoid sanding if i can, so i hope to put on thin coats with the dust wiped off as in the other horse. i can see doing maybe a coat or two this way, then maybe the second to last coat i sand with a 400, apply the final coat, then wet sand with a 400, 600, the 0000 steel wool with rottenstone slurry.
this is going into a nice art artisan shop so it has to have a great finish to justify its hefty price tag, and i intend to start making fresh new horses with the proceeds when it sells, but this time skipping the 24-yr "curing" step. ;)
thanks for your patience, and thanks in advance for restraint in any flames that may be too tempting to pass on..... ;-)
charlie
207458207459
my past experience at finishing has been just the old slap on of poly, or just enough BLO to make a picture frame look good and be done. this is a tad more serious though. bear with me as i try to present all the pertinent facts and history.
see photos below. these are laminated red oak, i had the lamination stage 90% finished when life got in the way and they were then neglected and left in a hot southeast texas attic for <GULP> 24 years. therefore, the wood is pretty much as dry as wood can get so i decided i needed some oil in the pores. hence my choice was a tung oil based finish topped with urethane, i want some build up for a nice gloss and protection from wear. obviously these are built to last, i figure future owners will refinish every 50 yrs or so. i have one that is 25 yrs old that i finished with wipe on poly only, no sanding or buffing or waxing, it has held up well but is mainly a decorative piece and is rarely ridden.
so with this i started with 2 coats of raw dark tung oil cut 50/50 with mineral spirits. i applied very heavy coats - just sopping it on, waited 30 minutes, then wiped off the excess. 10 hours between coats. i really really like this wipe on/off method because i feel like i am getting good penetration, and when i wipe off i can see that virtually all of the lint/dust comes off with it, verified by that when it is dry (or close to it) it may still feel oily of course but i feel no bumps from dust or lint. i follow up every 1/2 hour 3-5 hours and wipe off and seepage i find. at this stage i am very pleased with the looks.
now, as you can see this is a complex shape - many nooks and crannies and every possible exposure of grain, often on adjacent pieces as well as curve transition. another reason to sop it on thick on end grain, etc, for max penetration. but also for this reason i really want to avoid as much between coat sanding as possible, it is just too difficult to sand consistently with the grain and the nooks and crannies, etc. so, i decided against going through a typical 4-6 coat process of poly. BTW, the horse in the background was done in this manner, but with no sanding. it is really a quickie learner model - learning some new carving methods and learning from mistakes - the biggest mistake being that after 2 coats of poly i thought i was done, so now am adding more coats in thin wipe on layers, again wiping off the dust lint as opposed to sanding. it is working ok i guess, but this horse was not sanded nearly to the same detail as the more recent one, so i will never get that perfect finish anyway - another mistake learned - but it had some major flaws from the 24 yrs of neglect and abuse and is really not worth putting in all that level of detail. the second horse, however, is in great shape and worthy of the time. it was sanded perfectly in a 60 - 120 - 150 grit sequence, with all the curves and nooks and crannies and being carved and grinded you can imagine there were a lot of scratches and lumps to remove.
now comes where i leaped before looking. on the other horse i used General Finishes Arm r Seal urethane/oil topcoat (GF). Nice finish, but it dries fast and never has an oily feel so i question how much it really has. i want the oil, even considered all pure tung oil, reducing the MS, then topcoat, but that would take weeks i am afraid. so i mixed up about 40% of the GF, 30% regular pure tung oil, and 20% MS to thin. i have 2 coats of this on at this point, using the wipe on/off. i see/feel no lint or dust .
so after all this what i am wondering is:
A) is this totally stupid or not a bad idea? i am expecting to have to put on 6 to 8 coats in this manner since i wipe so much off, but i know i am getting penetration. i wipe on a little at a time until the rag is fully saturated and i wring out excess onto the horses back, and keep wiping until i can wring no more. it is not evaporating so it must be going in.
B) assuming this not totally stupid, do i have to wait until the previous coat is fully dried/cured before another coat? after 6-8 hours it reaches a stage where you feel a slightly sticky oily feel, but no residue, no finger prints, very smooth with no lint or dust, no seepage, its just not slick, and not really wet either. i figure this is enough as long as i am coming over it with the exact mixture.
C) still assuming i am on the right track, i am planning on finishing with a topcoat of the GF only. for this coat i can wait until totally dry/cured, assuming this happens in 48 hours or so. after 6-8 coats as above, how many coats of GF should i expect to apply? i want to avoid sanding if i can, so i hope to put on thin coats with the dust wiped off as in the other horse. i can see doing maybe a coat or two this way, then maybe the second to last coat i sand with a 400, apply the final coat, then wet sand with a 400, 600, the 0000 steel wool with rottenstone slurry.
this is going into a nice art artisan shop so it has to have a great finish to justify its hefty price tag, and i intend to start making fresh new horses with the proceeds when it sells, but this time skipping the 24-yr "curing" step. ;)
thanks for your patience, and thanks in advance for restraint in any flames that may be too tempting to pass on..... ;-)
charlie
207458207459