Shopping for cyclone

[Jim Andrew]

I have no idea what I really need, probably about the same as everyone
else on this forum, as mine is a one man shop. Was looking for the clear
vue cyclone, and found Penn state industries, they have a 2hp 14" impeller
system with 2- .5 micron cartridge filters for 735$ on sale right now. The
2 hp woodsucker has a 13" impeller for 899$. Oneida is more. The clear vue
folks do not offer a complete unit right now, probably will have one in the
future,and have not seen any figures on the new Griz units. The most
obnoxious piece of equipment as far as dust goes I plan to get is an 18"
woodmaster planer molder. Any comments?

[John Bailey]

Jim,

I'm also in the market. I've found this purchase to be the most confusing. I'm not in too much of a hurry, so I'm waiting to see how the Oneida vs. Grizzly battle is going to come out. Like you, I'm a one man shop, one tool at a time. It's been difficult deciding how much machine I need.

John

[Bill Lewis]

I just went through this process. I ended up getting the 2HP Commercial Oneida cyclone. Yes, it does cost more for the unit, but It's stats are better, and it is also rated as the quietest. I also wanted a system that would handle whatever ductowrk I needed to run, without being too much in the way. In all of the searches I did, I couldn't find anyone who was unhappy with the Oneida unit.

[Mark Duksta]

Jim,

I just went through the same decision making process. I also went for the Oneida. I knew exactly what I was getting (with Oneida) even though it's more money. I'm in the process of mounting it on the wall right now. I'll have some pictures up in a day or two.

Mark

[Jim Andrew]

Griz now has updated their cyclone info. The 1 1/2 hp has a 12" impeller,
6" intake, sucks 880 cfm and is $783 delivered. Available in April. The 2 hp
is a 13 1/2 " impeller, 7" intake, 1220 cfm suction, $903 delivered. The
impeller is rivited, everything else looks fantastic! Anyone know what
size a guy really needs? Jim

[Scott Parks]

The 2 hp
is a 13 1/2 " impeller, 7" intake, 1220 cfm suction, $903 delivered. The
impeller is rivited, everything else looks fantastic! Anyone know what
size a guy really needs? Jim You really need at least 800cfm at the tool. With the 1 1/2 hp unit, does it still deliver 800cfm after the ducting is installed? My guess would be 'NO'. (This is just an educated guess).

With the 2hp unit pulling 1200+ cfm, you should still have colse to the 800 cfm needed at the tool (after ducting loss) to pick up the fine dust. I think the extra $120 would be well spent by upping to the 2hp unit. (Another disclaimer, I have not read their spec's, just what you've stated).

It takes about 3 hp, and a 14" impeller to make a blower in the 1400+ cfm range (at the blower). With the cyclone, ducts, and filters in place, this number is significantly less. With that said, the numbers you give for the 2hp Grizz unit come pretty close. My guess is that the 7" intake makes up for the smaller impeller and 2hp motor. I've seen where someone tested increasing the duct from 6" to 7", improved by about 50-75 cfm.

Good luck!

[Jim Becker]

A good resource in addition to the Pentz material is the December 2003 Issue of WOOD Magazine where all of the units you are considering were reviewd.

[greg kurtock]

Very happy OAS 2hp commercial owner here. Would do it again in a heartbeat, even if Grizzlys's claims are true. Best customer service around.

I can't imagine the clearvue would not stay clear very long, and I'd be worried there could be wear right where the dust/chips enter the cyclone.

Greg

[Allan Johanson]

I punched in a typical duct layout into Bill's static calc spreadsheet and the 2HP version should be able to deliver about 800cfm with my example (if the charts are correct).

Not the 1.5HP version though.

FYI, my Bill Pentz 14" fan-based cyclone delivers 1700cfm with 8" ducting, 1500cfm with 7" ducting and I never did test it with a 6" main. But when I added 10 feet of 6" flex hose on my 7" main the 1500cfm went down to 1160 cfm. A big drop. Far more than the 50-75 cfm you mentioned. Not too sure what you read, but the results depend on so many things though.

My personal goal is about 200-250cfm more at the tool with a 7" main compared to folks with a 6" main. But you need to design it right and have the right blower powering the system.

Cheers,

Allan

[Scott Parks]

But when I added 10 feet of 6" flex hose on my 7" main the 1500cfm went down to 1160 cfm. A big drop. Far more than the 50-75 cfm you mentioned. Not too sure what you read, but the results depend on so many things though.

My personal goal is about 200-250cfm more at the tool with a 7" main compared to folks with a 6" main. But you need to design it right and have the right blower powering the system.

Cheers,

Allan
AHA, That's were I read those numbers! Thanks for all the testing and posting the numbers, Allan. What I was referring to, though, was that if you exclusivley used a 6" main vs. 7" main (assuming smooth wall). Not choking 7" down to 6" flex. Maybe I misread your original numbers... Or my memory is failing...:rolleyes:

[Scott Parks]

Allan, I searched back to your original post on test numbers... Yes, my memory is failing... The numbers I was quoting were refering to testing your exhaust outlets... After reading it again, I see that you didn't test a 6" main. Sorry:o

Based on your tests, I'll probably be using 7" duct. BTW, where do you buy 7" pipe?

Thanks for the contribution!

[Sam Blasco]

Guys. Check out this site: http://www.bluetornadocyclones.com/index.html

If I had known about this before, Woodsucker and Oneida would have had a serious run for their money.

[Steven Wilson]

Based on your tests, I'll probably be using 7" duct. BTW, where do you buy 7" pipe?

You won't find 7" PVC. It's fairly easy to find 7" metal pipe of the correct guage. Oneida, Air Handling Systems, Spiral Mfg, etc. all carry 7" metal duct work and fittings.

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Scott,

No worries re: wrong numbers. There are so many numbers and conditions that I've alone posted out there that they are becoming a blur for me too. :D On a different forum I got into some hypothesizing about how the cfm may grow for each drop at a tool in some conditions that the 50-75 numbers you posted may have come from that too. Like I said, there are so many different situations.

For 7" pipe, I started off at Home Depot and bought the 28ga snaplock HVAC pipe and 7" elbows. Later on I bought some 7" spiral from a local HVAC distributor. If you can't find anything in the yellow pages, go to a well stocked retail heating/plumbing store and ask them where you can buy it.

To make the 7" main work for you to give you that extra cfm at the tools, you need to either find 7" flex or branch the 7" main into something like two 5" drops.

When I took my 7" main and added a 7x5x5 wye at the end with two lengths of 10' of 5" flex at each branch, my main duct was still flowing 1364cfm. Compare that to my 7" main reduced at the end with a 7"x6" reducer and 10' of 6" flex hose....1160cfm. [And I think that 1160cfm number would be even less if a 6" smooth-walled main was used.]

200 extra cfm available with two 5" hoods at a tool, when compared to one 6" hood. Plus I think that most times having two hoods is better than one so that extra 200cfm at the tool might do a much better job than a single hood.

Ducting matters.

Cheers,

Allan

[John Bailey]

I haven't heard much on the Penn State. Has anyone had a bad or good experience?

John

[Jim Becker]

I haven't heard much on the Penn State. Has anyone had a bad or good experience?What I can relate, John, is that when I was shopping for my first cyclone back in early 2000, I got to fondle the 12" PSI cyclone they were selling at the time at the show where I ultimately ordered from Oneida. There was a remarkable difference in quality and "heft" between the two at the time--my decision was almost a no-brainer. PSI has since improved their offerings based on the reviews and specs, but I don't feel that they have done much to "advance the art" relative to performance as compared to Oneida, Woodsucker and the Pentz design. When you look at the line, they provide essentially the same physical platform for multiple horsepower motors...the inlets and outlets as well as the cyclone design don't appear to change within a size class. That doesn't make sense to me based on what folks have published on the topic.

All of these things are related and the machines that perform are engineered to work well with the impeller size, cyclone size and motor power they have. I don't get that feeling about the red machines when I look at the specs. Grizzly's upcoming offerings do make those distinctions since they based them on comparisons and consultations that likely bring good science along for the ride. Of course, independent testing will be the confirmation of that if and when it's available.

Please understand that I'm not saying that the PSI cyclones are "bad", just that their designs don't make sense to me as compared to other available options.

[Christopher Stahl]

Jim,
I have a friend selling a 1.5hp Oneida. I've been hesitating because I don't think it is strong enough but the price keeps me thinking about it. I pretty sure that it will not be strong enough for my needs. So, I've been leaning toward the 2hp commercial Oneida. Should I pass on the 1.5hp??

chris

[Jim Becker]

The newer 1.5hp units perform better than the older ones due to some minor changes they made a couple years ago...neutral vane, etc. Regardless, you want external filters...20% better air flow than the internal one and far easier to maintain. My 1.5hp ran fine and worked with my tools...until I bought the big J/P. At that point, it became marginal. There is a big, noticable difference in air flow with the 2hp commercial, but one would expect that...it's physcially much larger and has a more advanced blower design. It truly does clean out my cabinet saw, leaving little behind. If I forget to close a gate and move to another tool, it still pulls enough air to move sawdust; the 1.5 will not do that. Etc. If your expectations are high, stick it out for the larger unit. If you want to get rolling now and the price is right (assuming the filters are in order), there is little harm in trying the 1.5hp unit, other than a few changes you'll want to make for your duct work if you upgrade later. (Upsizing--the 1.5hp is optimized with 5" duct past the initial 6" section to the first branch)

[lou sansone]

my vote is for oneida.. have a 3hp industial unit and never had a problem in 4 years now.. good customer service and good quality.

[Bill Lewis]

It truly does clean out my cabinet saw, leaving little behind. If I forget to close a gate and move to another tool, it still pulls enough air to move sawdust
I based my choice on getting the 2hp Commercial unit so I would be able to have (2) 4" ports open at one time. Partly because I figured I would forget to close one, and partly because If I am going back and forth from say, the TS to jointer, I wouldn't have to keep opening and closing gates.

As it turns out almost all of my ports will be 5" with 5" gates; even though, most tools have a 4" port. If I can't modify the tool to use a 5" hose, I will reduce down to 4" at the tool port.

So here's a question for Jim, did you keep your cabinet saw port 4"?, or did you modify it to 5"?, or did you just make a reduction to 4" at the saw port?

I'm getting my new unisaw delivered soon (as soon as it dries out), and was considering modifying it, but if there's no need, that's be great.

[Jim Becker]

So here's a question for Jim, did you keep your cabinet saw port 4"?, or did you modify it to 5"?, or did you just make a reduction to 4" at the saw port?
My Jet saw still has the 4" port; I reduce from 6" via a 6x5x3 lateral with the 5" going to the saw (reduced before the port) and the 3" to the Excalibur guard. I can run both concurrently if I choose. I've also "accidentally" left a gate open from time to time but still had enough air flow at another station to work reasonably well. In fact I sometimes to that to cut the noise on a small drop to a still-smaller tool hood...

I may change the port on the cabinet saw someday, but it hasn't been on my priority list...it's hard enough to get shop time as it is with business travel, cold temps and other "distractions"...

[Steven Wilson]

I have a friend selling a 1.5hp Oneida. I've been hesitating because I don't think it is strong enough but the price keeps me thinking about it. I pretty sure that it will not be strong enough for my needs. So, I've been leaning toward the 2hp commercial Oneida. Should I pass on the 1.5hp?? Ask Oneida !!!! Which DC unit to get depends on what machines you're collecting from and the layout of your DC piping. In my case I was figuring on a 3HP Oneida but the 2HP commercial was plenty because of my piping runs. So give them a call.

[Allan Johanson]

Hey guys,

You might be interested in a test I did a while ago. After all, just how much restriction does a reducer have on a duct run anyhow, even if you don't have any flex hose attached afterwards?

My 7" main duct alone: almost 1500 cfm

7" main with the addition of a couple reducers to bring the diameter down to 4" - with NO flex hose or any ducting added onto that 4" reducer:

811 cfm!!!

Almost 700 cfm reduction by adding the reducers to get down to 4" from 7". When I added 12 feet of 4" flex hose, that 811 cfm went down to 749 cfm. Not much further penalty with the addition of the flex hose. Almost the entire reduction was due to the reducer.

If you're happy with the performance of your system then that's cool (I'm not telling you to do anything :D ), but if you want more airflow then you really need to replace the ports.

Food for thought.

Bill, I have a Unisaw and if yours is like mine then there is a rectangular port on the side of the saw. I used an HVAC "end boot" with a plywood frame around it that fastens to the saw. The size of my fitting is 4"x10" with a 6" round fitting. You can also get these in 5".

Cheers,

Allan

[Allan Johanson]

I also restricted the 7" main with a 5" reducer. Here are the 4" and 5" numbers for a reducer ONLY on my 7" main, (no flex hose):

7" main: ~1500 cfm
reduced to 5": 1160 cfm
reduced to 4": 811 cfm

So you can see upgrading to a 5" port could be beneficial at times.

Cheers,

Allan