No Patriotism

[Kevin Gregoire]

i have to say that the only good thing that came out of 9/11 was that it brought America together in a very strong way but
it didn't take but a few years for the patriotism to fade away.

i am so disappointed in so many people in this country as every year on veterans day, memorial day, July 4th and Sept 11 i
always put out our flag on the front of our house. but when i go out on errands or whatever and i drive around town i and
two other houses on my entire street are the only ones flying flags and as i drive around i only see the occasional flag on a
few homes here and their.

why is it like this? are people so lazy they cant take a minute to open their front door to hang a flag to remember those who
have fallen in the name of freedom? i just don't understand the lack of patriotism in this day and age, its very depressing!

[Brian Kent]

Please don't judge the patriotism of your patriotic neighbors by the one sign of whether or not a flag is up. It is about our whole attitude about the country and our faithfulness to work for its good. Your neighbors are far better than you may think.

[Richard Streeter]

I think what Kevin might be wondering is why are there so few outward signs or symbols of patriotism for our great country, as opposed to the past, not so long ago. For many who have served (and are serving) the USA flag stands for a lot more than it is given credit for by many of our citizens. It is a good thing to display your faith and appreciation for our country, and the lack of the tendency anymore can only leave one wondering why so few seem to be willing to display a sign of their appreciation for the country. Simply living here and having good thoughts does not convey the same emotion and intent as some sort of patriotic display, be it a flag or other sign. I hope you are right in your assertion that his neighbors (our neighbors) are far better than he (we) think. I too wonder what is happening to this nation.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Do not judge this nation using only outward signs like the flag Kevin. Patriotism is and should be more than a few simple and easily spoken words or the display of a symbol. As an example, I often do not display a flag. I feel it is inconvenient at times and I would only display the flag properly and take it in at the correct time too which is not always possible. For reference, I am a Marine combat veteran from the Vietnam War and I feel I proved my patriotism beyond a doubt by my actions, not by easily spoken phrases or by the display of a symbol. Twice I have shed my blood for this country. Patriotism is a personal thing and it means different things to each individual person just as each person expresses it in a different way.

In today's society all I ask is that on days like Memorial Day and Veteran's Day, each person interrupt their shopping, cookouts, and other activities for a few minutes and remember my friends who gave all they had. A veteran is someone who at some time in their live wrote out a blank check payable to the United State of America for any amount up to and including their life. Sadly since 1775 over 2 million of these checks have been cashed.

[Mike Henderson]

I agree with Dave. I've seen too many people who use all the outward signs but don't walk the talk. For example, why does it make you a patriot to fly the flag? What's so patriotic about that? What about helping others who are less fortunate, or getting active in organizations which will help the community? Those are patriotic acts. Flying the flag reminds me of Thomas Paine's quote about "summer soldiers" - people who do the easy things but disappear with there is some work or risk involved. If you want to be patriotic, do something that will help your fellow citizens, your community, and your country.

Mike

[anthony wall]

well said mike those are good sentiments

[Mike Henderson]

I made my earlier post in haste, but it expressed my feelings. What I'd like to do here is to ask other people what they consider patriotism to be. I think we can agree that a person who volunteers to serve in the military, especially in time of war, is patriotic. But what about civilians? What, to you, are the attributes of a patriotic civilian? And why did you pick the attributes you list?

Mike

[John Fabre]

What about a guy who thinks volunteering to reenact the civil war is patriotic, but never wanted to serve in the military. Is this patriotic?

[dave toney]

There is patriotism, and then there is nationalism.
Patriotism, at least to me, means a deep love of liberty, freedom and the founding principles of this (once) great nation.
Nationalism is different, although nationalist wave the flag and appear patriotic, they may care nothing for anything other than blindly supporting whatever the government and the military do.
I am not impressed by flag flying, or stickers saying to "support our troops", or even the reciting of the pledge of allegiance.
Thomas Paine said "It is the duty of every patriot to protect his country from its government"
Blindly supporting the government is not patriotism.
Looking at government as a "fearful master and a dangerous servant", as George Washington said, is my idea of American patriotism.
Controversial?
Today probably, but it was the foundation of our nation.
Dave

[Mike Henderson]

Well, I'll post a couple of things.

1. Voting
2. Understanding the issues before you vote.
3. Voting for issues which will help your country, your community and your fellow citizens, as you see it.
4. Getting involved in your community, whether that's by running for office, helping to clean up a river, helping Habitat for Humanity build houses, or whatever you think is important.

Mike

[ray hampton]

There is patriotism, and then there is nationalism.
Patriotism, at least to me, means a deep love of liberty, freedom and the founding principles of this (once) great nation.
Nationalism is different, although nationalist wave the flag and appear patriotic, they may care nothing for anything other than blindly supporting whatever the government and the military do.
I am not impressed by flag flying, or stickers saying to "support our troops", or even the reciting of the pledge of allegiance.
Thomas Paine said "It is the duty of every patriot to protect his country from its government"
Blindly supporting the government is not patriotism.

Controversial?
Today probably, but it was the foundation of our nation.
Dave

Looking at government as a "fearful master and a dangerous servant", as George Washington said, is my idea of American patriotism.

when George Washington made this statement , was he talking about the government before he became the president or the government after he became president ? was there any organized government before that he became president ?

[Prashun Patel]

Patriotism = non hypocrytic love for your country. Express it however you wish.

[John Coloccia]

What rot. There's not a day...not a single day...that goes by that I don't think about 9/11. That's my own personal story. There's not a day that goes by that I don't worry about my country.

I don't fly a flag. Ever....not ever. I don't because I don't feel like I can do it justice with proper lighting. I don't feel like I can be there all the time to keep it out of the way of weather. I show my love for my country every day in real, concrete ways. I show my love with my vote. I show my love with everyday acts, like when I was layed off and was eligible for unemployment I rejected it because I didn't strictly need it, hopefully relieving some stress from my fellow citizens that would have had to pay for me. I hope I show my love with everyday acts of kindness, and also every day acts of telling people off when they're acting like complete idiots (how many of you fly your flags and then look the other way when you see wrong because you're afraid to speak up?).

My government is not my country, nor is a piece of clothe with pretty patterns on it. My country is my neighbor, and their neighbor. I would much prefer it if everyone put their flags away and instead concentrated on improving their streets, then their neighborhoods, possibly their states, and ultimately their country.

[Heather Thompson]

Well, I'll post a couple of things.

1. Voting
2. Understanding the issues before you vote.
3. Voting for issues which will help your country, your community and your fellow citizens, as you see it.
4. Getting involved in your community, whether that's by running for office, helping to clean up a river, helping Habitat for Humanity build houses, or whatever you think is important.

Mike

Mike,

I think you pretty much nailed this one, your signature line says it well. I vote, try to understand issues that will help all people and lend the hand when needed, that is true patriotism. Driving down RT38 with two American flags out of your PU is just plain stupid with a bottle of JD in your hand. We live in the real world, lets be real.

Heather

[Mike Henderson]

My government is not my country, nor is a piece of clothe with pretty patterns on it. My country is my neighbor, and their neighbor. I would much prefer it if everyone put their flags away and instead concentrated on improving their streets, then their neighborhoods, possibly their states, and ultimately their country.
Very well said.

Mike

[Seth Dolcourt]

I leave the flag outside, overnight, without a dedicated light; it'll have to keep its own company until morning. When it gets rained on, it'll have to figure out how to dry itself. When it catches on the rain gutter, it gets shredded, and looks beaten up. And when it wraps itself tightly around the flag pole, I figure it got itself into trouble, it can darn well figure out how to untwist itself from its predicament. The way I fly the flag is a microcosm of America itself.

I once viewed myself as the guy who would stop someone else from burning a US flag in protest because that's the Right Thing To Do, but really, burning a flag does not burn America itself. So I've decided that I'm not going to be that guy. And America lives on, despite my slack attitude about flag burning.

Fox News is no more patriotic than PBS, despite that there are more flags waved on Fox News than PBS.

Volunteering for military service (because here, military service is non-compulsory) is a selfless personal act, but equal in patriotism to merely paying taxes, on which the military is completely reliant. Speaking against the military, or its actions, is identically patriotic (read: not seditious). All American institutions are fair game when speech is not restrained in a prior fashion, making deference a personal choice, not a mandatory act.

Long may the US flag wave. Except at my house, where a flag lasts for about a season, and then it gets unceremoniously replaced.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Well, I'll post a couple of things.

1. Voting
2. Understanding the issues before you vote.
3. Voting for issues which will help your country, your community and your fellow citizens, as you see it.
4. Getting involved in your community, whether that's by running for office, helping to clean up a river, helping Habitat for Humanity build houses, or whatever you think is important.

Mike

Mike,

I feel these just describe the responsibilities of a good citizen and not necessarily attributes of a patriot.

Patriotism is defined as a devotion to one's country. Nationalism has more a broader definition, often seen as a collective identity that implies all must act as a group or conversely it can be reactionary.

The 4th example you listed.....if for example you helped clean a river because you felt it was your patriotic duty, then maybe I could consider you a patriot. If, however, you did it because you feel it was just the right thing to do.....well....I would consider it a moral or ecological decision on your part and wouldn't consider your act patriotic....

The reasoning behind someone's actions pretty well define if it's patriotic.

The topic is terribly complex and there is no black and white, right or wrong answers but I do believe there are also levels of patriotism.

I personally have participated in stream rebuilding where we removed the tailings & silt deposited by gold miners over century ago in streams and built rock weirs to cause stream flow to allow steelhead trout to lay their eggs in the gravel beds for natural regeneration of the species. I didn't think of it as a patriotic act. It was just something I enjoyed doing with other sportsmen and sportswomen. Other than camping in hot conditions while doing this, it was a pretty uneventful, unexciting thing to do and wildlife, in this case native steelhead trout, benefited from it. It's important to note that most of the folks on this trip were fisherman/fisherwomen and they were helping improve the habitat for the native steelhead runs. It was really selfish interests behind their acts. While we can't keep native steelhead when we catch them, it's still fun.

It's my opinion that one can perform acts that effect society and are not necessarily patriotic.

Take for example, policeman and firefighters. To me they are great examples of groups who daily put their lives in harms way to protect the everyday Joes and Janes and yet it isn't necessarily done out of devotion for one's country but rather out of devotion to society...perhaps even on just a local level. Another example of this what we see during out annual forest fire season locally. We have had firefighters from New Zealand, Austrailia and Canada in our local area...fighting forest fires.... It obviously wasn't patriotic but more a societal or humanitarian reason for them to endanger themselves.

As stated by Dave Anderson....those who serve in the military knowingly place their lives on the line for this country. They don't make the decisions to go to war, they just agree to do as they are ordered.....even if it means being killed.

At the same time, I don't think you can berate those who fly the flag or put bumper stickers on their cars that say "Support Our Troops". That is their way of showing a love or devotion to their country. My wife is 5'2" tall. I am 6'2" tall. I outweigh her by 100 lbs. at least. She was extremely shy ( no longer a problem) and quiet. Our oldest son was in US Army and during Operation Desert Shield was deployed with the 1st Infantry in the desert south of Iraq and slightly west of Kuwait. Idaho's US Senators Larry Craig and Steve Symms held a town-hall meeting in a local church for relatives of military personnel. I watched my shy little wife stand up in front of approximately 100 other people and tell these 2 US Senators...."You aren't going to do to our sons and daughters......what you did to our husbands and brothers......Allow them to fight to win...or bring them home now!" I was supposed to speak next.....my comment "My wife said it all."..... When 9/11 broke out our youngest son was ship's company officer aboard the USS Carl Vinson and as it turned into the Persian Gulf from the Arabian Sea, they watched the 2nd plane hit the 2nd tower live on satellite tv. They had left in July to fly the "southern no-fly zone over Iraq". The following January, my wife rode the USS Carl Vinson from Pearl Harbor to San Diego to Bremeton, WA which was it's home port then. She flies a flag daily and she wears red, white and blue proudly on the 4th of July. That is her method of showing her patriotism and yet.....she would have marched in the streets if our sons had been treated by the government or the public the way the veterans of the Vietnam Era were treated. She is a patriot. She loves her country.....it's not always right....but she loves it for what it is.

Lastly....Understanding the issues before you vote... To whose satisfaction? Nobody should have to justify their vote. If they are satisfied they voted in the manner in which they believe, that's all that's important. Nobody has a right to pass judgement on somebody's reason for voting in a specific manner. My wife and I periodically cancel each other's votes. So what? It is more proper, IMHO, to vote your conscience than to cast a vote for something you don't believe in...just so you don't cancel out your spouse's vote.

Terribly complex question....no black and white answers...no right or wrongs.......

[Keith Outten]

I've never flown the US Flag for the union but I have flown it for the American people....particularly those who have served in our military and those who stand watch today. I have faith in my fellow Americans and more so in my fellow Virginians.

I have never missed voting in a local, state or federal election, my first time was in November of 1969.

I am probably more aware of how our Selective Service System works than most. I was selected when I was young and took part in the system so i know that even though service is voluntary now it has not always been that way and it would be foolish to think it will always be voluntary. Having served myself I have more respect for my Father and others in my family who served before me and I can better understand the sacrifices they and their families made to protect us from harm.

I am the founder and Administrator of the Freedom Pens Project. We ship custom made handwriting pens to our Troops in combat zones, simple gifts to remind them that some at home are thinking about them and appreciate their service. Thousands of good people have contributed pens to show their support, others contribute in their own way but the numbers are a very small percentage of our population.

I never work on Veterans Day, Memorial Day or Christmas Day. The first two holidays are the reason we have the right to celebrate all of the other holidays IMO. I have spent the last ten years making pens for those who serve on both of these holidays, it seems to me to be an appropriate use of my time and my way of showing my support for those who keep me and my family safe.

I consider those who serve as Patriots, this group includes our Military, Firemen, Policemen and lots of others who have made the choice to spend their life or just a portion of their career putting others ahead of their own personal safety. I would be remiss if i failed to include "Rosie the Riveter" and other citizens who stepped up to provide the support our service members had to have to do their jobs.

Anytime I feel the need to shake the hand of an American Patriot all I have to do is look around, they are everywhere. There are also plenty of heroes to be found if you just open your eyes and look for them.
.

[dave toney]

Looking at government as a "fearful master and a dangerous servant", as George Washington said, is my idea of American patriotism.

when George Washington made this statement , was he talking about the government before he became the president or the government after he became president ? was there any organized government before that he became president ?
Yes, there was an organized government before George Washington became president, it was the Articles of Confederation. His statement was a on government in general, the founders recognized that government was a necessary evil whose natural tendency was to grow and aggregate power.

[Brian Elfert]

I don't fly a flag. Ever....not ever. I don't because I don't feel like I can do it justice with proper lighting. I don't feel like I can be there all the time to keep it out of the way of weather.

The only requirement in regards to weather with a US flag is that you have to have an all-weather flag. I don't know if there are flags these days that are not all-weather except maybe the cheap printed ones.

Lighting is another issue and is the main reason I don't have a flag pole. I think the lighting requirement is silly. We're using up energy and lighting up the night sky just to illuminate a US flag.

[John Pratt]

Within months of 9-11 I don't think I saw but a handful of cars without a flag, yellow ribbon, or some other patriotic symbol of support. At a store parking lot in my hometown, my wife commented on the amount of flags and yellow ribbons on all the cars. A gentlemen at the car next to ours commented that we didn't have a flag on ours. I told him that I carry my symbol of patriotism in my pocket. I then produced my active duty Army ID card. The point is that everyone shows there patriotism in different ways, not necessarily a flag in the yard. I do enjoy seeing the flags waving in front yards, but I think it is more about participation in our way of life and how we treat our fellow man as we conduct our daily business. There are many who seek to be part of this country for what it can offer them with no intent of providing anything back. It is those people who actively participate in the principles this country was founded upon and seek to make the country better through volunteerism, service, or some other form without the prospect of fame, fortune, or recognition. It is somewhat hard to put into words what true American patriotism is. I think it is more of a feeling than a display. I can tell you that anytime I hear the National Anthem at an event I actually puff up a bit with pride and have more than one occasion teared up a little.

[Joe Angrisani]

.....I think it is more of a feeling than a display.....

Bingo......

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John....I served 8 years in the US Navy from 1968-1976. For the first 4 years, hearing taps at sunset never bothered me. Then I heard taps bugled over my fathers casket and taps took on a whole new meaning and importance....not just for my father but for all who have earned that right. I spent the last 4 years of my service making sure whether at a naval air station or aboard a ship making sure I couldn't hear taps being blown. Even today, regardless of the event, taps has a different meaning, to me it's the lonelist sound in the world and it's finality puts tears in my eyes every time.

[Belinda Barfield]

I'll wade in . . .

To me patriotism is first and foremost love of country and love of fellow citizen.
Voting, and not only on election days. I do my best to follow those I've elected and how they vote, and to voice my disapproval/disagreement if I don't agree with their vote.
Thanking those who serve and have served to protect us - whether military, firefighters, police officers, or elected officials, and showing them the respect they deserve.
Being willing and prepared to protect my home and the homes of my neighbors against attack, and prepared to assist others in the event of an attack.
Working and paying my fair share. I know that is difficult in the current economy and I'm very fortunate to be able to do so. This is in no way directed at those who are currently unemployed.

I may complain about taxes, and business restrictions, and politicians, but I never complain about living in America.

[Rod Sheridan]

As an outsider, I'll wade in.

I'm surprised to read comments regarding the lack of flags in the USA because I'm always struck by the opposite, I am always amazed at how many personal buildings in the USA fly a flag.

Those Americans who visit Canada are probably equally amazed to observe how few Canadian personal buildings fly flags.

As others have said, it's not outward displays or symbols that make you patriotic, it's your actions and convictions.

To me, patriotism and nationalism are both double edged swords. They can be capable of much good, however they deserve critical analysis at all times to make sure that they don't take you down the wrong path. I cannot think of any countries that in hindsight haven't been led down the proverbial garden path by lack of critical analysis of events spurred on by patriotism and nationalism.

The outward displays of patriotism, well to me it's like religious beliefs, something that's personal and that I don't display for others.

Of course for other people, outward displays are important, as always it's a personal choice, however in my opinion it's no indicator of what's going on beneath the surface.


Regards, Rod.

[dave toney]

It is obvious that patriotism means different things to different people, yet almost everyone considers themselves to be very patriotic.
To some it means the founding principles of this nation, to others it is "my country, right or wrong".
Unfortunately, today we are faced with supporting the Constitutions, both federal and state, or supporting those who are administering those offices created by those constitutions.
The real hero's are those who quietly do their jobs, support their families, and are an asset to their communities.
The farmer, rancher, construction worker, truck drivers, linemen and fishermen are examples of occupations that are MORE dangerous than being a firefighter or policemen, yet they do their job with no self aggrandizement or fanfare.
The police don't seem to need me to tell them how great they are, they may be the most self promoting group (next to politicians) that there is, I have seen a terrible change in the attitude of police officers in my lifetime, and it saddens me greatly.
I have spent the last 12 years studying the foundation of the United States, and have read every book I could get my hands on that deals with that subject.
I know most people have not read the federalist and anti-federalist papers, or Debates on the Constitution, and have no idea how much the founding fathers feared us turning into a democracy instead of a limited government of a republican nature.
Some of what I say seems to be anti-government, but most people would be surprised how radical the founding of this nation was.
I consider myself to be a fervent patriot, yet I am very skeptical and critical of the government we have today.
I love my fellow Americans, am president of a local civic organization that helps support our local people in need, as well as volunteer firemen and rescue squads and food banks.
I believe that the greatness of our nation resides in the hearts of our neighbors, that our young men and women who volunteer are a credit to our nation, and they are abused with missions that are ill conceived and ill defined.
I served in the military 35 years ago BTW.
America is great not because of our government, but in spite of it.
Dave

[Mike Henderson]

It's interesting to me that we can all agree that the definition of patriotism is "love of country" but it's difficult to say how it's demonstrated. I've often thought about that question, especially when someone tries to tell me that displaying the flag, either on their lapel or on a flagpole in their front yard, is a demonstration of how patriotic they are. I've always felt that was the "Walmart" version of patriotism.

I appreciate reading your comments about this issue.

Mike

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes Mike, this has been an interesting and informative thread..............Rod.

[Jim Rimmer]

I fly my flag, shake the hands of veterans (I am a vet myself) and consider myself patriotic. But the outward display is not a requirement for being patriotic. Or the opposite. Example: I went to Walmart yesterday and as i left there was a car parked near me with a kayak on the roof and an American flag draped over and secured to the kayak. At first I was outraged that someone could be so disrespectful to the flag and considered waiting for them to come out so I could tell them how I felt. The it came to me that the person was demonstrating their love of country in what they thought was a good way. They had that right (there are flag display guidelines and etiquette but no laws) so I left and quietly in my mind thanked him for loving our country.

[ray hampton]

the effort that it takes to placed my flag in its holder and take it down again takes too much energy, I want to thank everyone who include their post here for the whole world to see

[Richard Streeter]

I dont think more or less of anyone for their flag flying (or other patriotic symbology). However, I recognize a value in showing an outward sign or symbol of your love for country that is not the same as doing a good deed or having nice thoughts about your country held internally. It doesnt make you bad if you dont, but I think, no I KNOW it does make you more OBVIOUSLY proud of our great nation in a time when there seem to be many who are not. It is a way for like minded individuals to know that there are others who share the same love of country in an instant. No one is perfect, and I know for myself that I have not done as much for this country as many, but I firmly believe that the USA is the greatest country ever in the recorded history of man. I have never thought ill or questioned someone's reasons for showing a symbol of patriotism, but rather for me, the symbol stirs an inner appreciation for this country, its history, its defenders, and its part in making this world a better place.

-Ben

[Prashun Patel]

I've never been one for blind patriotism or blind organized religion. But I will say that there is tremendous power (FOR ME) in group prayer - or group anything. I find it highly synergistic and reinforcing. I'm not talking about zealotry or mobs or anything in excess.

I find flag raising a kind of group activity. Private patriotism is fine, but a flag reminds me that we live in a great place and I live near someone who recognizes it at that instant. I find it unifying and dignified. Save the political captions or subtext for someone else; I take a flag as a pure and elegant symbol of thanks.

For me, once I discount and dissociate from zealots and bigots, I find symbols of religion and nation quite moving.

Hmmm, I think I'll raise my flag more often.

[Greg Peterson]

Well said, Prashun. Well said.

[Derek Gilmer]

To me patriotism is closely tied to Prashun's comments about group unity. Individualism is ruining this country and the people that live in. So many standards of standing together despite the hard times seem to be falling apart. Marriages ruined by wanting dip your wick somewhere else, government fractured by hatred around what party you are in, churches split by what "feels good" and so on. I'm a younger pup at 31 and wish I'd been alive during WWII to experience what it is like when our entire country pulled together.

So how does that translate to patriotism for me?
1. Support our troops even if you don't like the war. They have suffered, are suffering and will suffer things on our behalf we can't imagine.
2. Vote for and support the government. You are part of a democracy live with it and love it. If you don't like the current direction motivate others to change their votes.
3. Do things in your community to make it it better. A better country starts with your neighborhood, town, county and state.
4. Enjoy the things we as Americans have in common.

[dave toney]

Derek,
1. If "supporting our troops" means caring for them and wanting them to return to their families safe and whole, then I think almost everyone feels that way.
Some people, such as myself, believe "supporting our troops" means making sure they are never placed in harms way without clearly define goals and a well defined mission, and speaking out when we feel they are being used as pawns.
If donations to presidential candidates by military personnel is any indication of their sentiment, then the anti-interventionist stance of candidate Ron Paul is extremely popular with the troops, his donations from active duty military is more than all of the other candidates combined.
2.Sometimes democracy and a constitutionally limited government are at odds with one another, I will never be happy when people are elected that will not follow the constitution they swore and oath to uphold. Voting is important, but I don't have to love the result, the founders feared a democracy with good reason, a limited government with elected representatives was as far as "democracy" was intended to go.
3. Very good! I could not agree more!
4. Also a very good idea!
I am an older dog now, I don't mean to seem preachy, I don't believe in the right or the left political ideology, just right and wrong.
Bless you, go forth and live well!
Dave

[Bryan Morgan]

I don't really put my flag out because I cannot do it properly. I don't have a pole to mount it higher than my house and straight nor a light to illuminate it at night. I see people stick them on the side of their house, dipping it to their neighbors... this is wrong.

Do to the state of our nation, I've been meaning to hang one upside down but then I figured I'd just get a ration from a bunch of ignorant people so I don't even bother.

Plus, I pretty much hate my neighbors and most of the people in my town so I don't really feel patriotic towards anything or anyone. And then theres the government and everything they've been up to for the last 100 years, I have nothing good to say about any of that. I respect the military and will thank them when I run across them, but thats about it. I don't really buy into this "we are a giant gang" nationalistic nonsense. I guess, in short, I can't see anything REAL to be patriotic about.

[Derek Gilmer]

I don't really put my flag out because I cannot do it properly. I don't have a pole to mount it higher than my house and straight nor a light to illuminate it at night. I see people stick them on the side of their house, dipping it to their neighbors... this is wrong.


Do you mean one of the flags mounted on a wall at a 45? I believe those are allowable as long as the union is at the peak of the pole. United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 P 7.h

Flying it upside down on the other hand is allowable only "as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property." United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 P 8.a. Not as a political statement.

[dave toney]

Title 4 is enforceable within the government, that is who it applies to.
For private citizens it is "flag etiquette", a good idea, but not an enforceable situation.
The courts have ruled that privately owned flags are protected by the first amendment and no prosecution for disrespect, such as burning, may be prosecuted.
I recommend displaying the flag within the "rules" set forth in title 4, but even finding a flag with the proper hoist to fly ratio is a challenge (1 to 1.9) as most flags are made to a squatty looking 3 X 5 ratio.
Dave

[Eddie Watkins]

I put up a flagpole and installed a light last year and have been flying it since. I usually take it down if I know there is bad weather approaching. I normally fly the American flag and the state flag but on special occasions I have other flags I fly with the American flag. My flags are usually 3'x5' but on Independence Day I flew a 4'x6' American flag. I fly the American flag with the Marine Corps flag on military holidays such as Memorial Day, Veteran's Day, Nov 10th(Marine Corps anniversary), etc. I fly a Christian flag with the American flag on Christian holidays. I fly other flags on different days as the urge hits such as scool flag on game day. I figure by doing the changing it keeps people noticing the American flag. I don't do it to be patriotic, I do it to inspire and let folks know others care.

[Neal Clayton]

What rot. There's not a day...not a single day...that goes by that I don't think about 9/11. That's my own personal story. There's not a day that goes by that I don't worry about my country.

I don't fly a flag. Ever....not ever. I don't because I don't feel like I can do it justice with proper lighting. I don't feel like I can be there all the time to keep it out of the way of weather. I show my love for my country every day in real, concrete ways. I show my love with my vote. I show my love with everyday acts, like when I was layed off and was eligible for unemployment I rejected it because I didn't strictly need it, hopefully relieving some stress from my fellow citizens that would have had to pay for me. I hope I show my love with everyday acts of kindness, and also every day acts of telling people off when they're acting like complete idiots (how many of you fly your flags and then look the other way when you see wrong because you're afraid to speak up?).

My government is not my country, nor is a piece of clothe with pretty patterns on it. My country is my neighbor, and their neighbor. I would much prefer it if everyone put their flags away and instead concentrated on improving their streets, then their neighborhoods, possibly their states, and ultimately their country.

but the majority obviously disagree. they see only themselves. whether they see themselves in the cheering for the misery of others, or the blind faith in their own failures (which pretty much covers the entire political spectrum), "selfish" is the word that labels them all.

and you know what? my opinion is i can't beat em, so i join em.

you can't look at a room full of ignorant people and ask yourself objectively how or why you should try to help them, because the objective answer is you can't. screw them. let them shoot holes in their own ship if that's what they want to do.

so i don't start fights over pledge recitals at football games
so i don't fly flags just to point the finger at those who don't
so i don't buy chinese made 'support our troops' bumper stickers
so i don't go to town hall meetings to hear today's talking points

i take care of me and mine and if the rest shoot enough holes in said ship to actually sink it, we'll just leave. someone else can turn out the lights.

[Hilel Salomon]

I like and agree with Mike's posts. Perhaps, though, it would be a good idea to define something before we can determine whether or not it exists in our country. "Patriotism" is generally defined as love of one's country and willingness to sacrifice oneself for it. As many of you have noted, this has little to do with flags, decals or-for that matter-words. You can go on with the definitions forever, but if you define a country as the sum total of its people, then patriotism involves a deep commitment to Americans. I think that, however you want to see this happen, this, in turn, involves a serious concern for the health and welfare of Americans, Not some Americans, but all Americans and unfortunately, that's where I see that patriotism has indeed waned. The worship of "me" doesn't really accommodate honest patriotism. My namesake, Hilel, is reputed to have said: If I'm not for myself then who will be. If I'm only for myself then what am I? Whatever the answer to the last postulate, it can't possibly be "patriotic."

Hilel

[Mitch Barker]

Part of being patriotic is understanding that the form of government in the US requires compromise. Some call this putting country before party. Mitch

[Greg Peterson]

Compromise is a dirty word.

[Mike Henderson]

Compromise is a dirty word.
I have heard people say that they'd rather lose an election than compromise. But Bill Clinton's comment is true - "Losers don't legislate".

All phases of life require compromise - especially marriage. Things get done in business through compromise. A company wants to sell a product at a certain price but the buyer won't pay that price. They negotiate and come to a compromise that they both dislike but that gets the deal done - because they both need the deal.

Politics should be the same way.

Mike

[Greg Peterson]

Politics is the art of compromise. Or at least it use to be. But the tone was set a while back when one person said they will not compromise. Won't even use the word. Says a lot about that persons patriotism.

[Neal Clayton]

Part of being patriotic is understanding that the form of government in the US requires compromise. Some call this putting country before party. Mitch

i agree. in the past couple of decades people complained about the 'old time' professional congressmen that had been in office forever, but what separated those guys from the ones we have today is despite their differing philosophies, they had a genuine sense that at some point the nation's work needed to get done, and they would strike a deal to make it happen, regardless of whatever posturing they did in public.

those people are gone now, but are we really better off?

i can speak from another example, being from louisiana. we have had years of a zealous US attorney trying to stamp out all forms of corruption, perceived or real. but honestly? give the people of the state the choice, and edwin edwards despite being a convicted felon would be governor again. there's no doubt that he had his hand in the pot, he sold favor left and right. but he didn't take money from the public, he took money from people who wanted to do business with the state. that didn't affect that business getting done, it just cost a little more. when he said that a hospital would get built, or a bridge would get built, or teachers would get a raise, or a stadium would get built, it got done.

that's really all people want, when you get right down to it.

we're never going to be a libertarian society. we're never going to be a socialist society. so zealots from either side really have no place in public office. what we will be is somewhere in the middle. stability is the only thing that has gotten us this far. our stable economy is the envy of the rest of the world, and it is that way because we don't allow zealots to cause turmoil. when we start to do so (like the recent credit downgrade on the heels of a budget deadlock) we are slipping. and once you start slipping it's hard to stop. ask any given roman emperor or senator.

[Tim Bateson]

...Volunteering for military service (because here, military service is non-compulsory) is a selfless personal act, but equal in patriotism to merely paying taxes...

First I want to say, I'm not calling you un-patriotic - you have your way, I have mine - no big deal.

However, as for your statement...
"Equal"!!! Really??? I find this statement to be completely offensive! Did you know that Welfare recipients have better compensation than many of our military members who are risking their lives, instead of being a lazy burden on society? Did you also know that out of that small military wage, they pay the same taxes you do - no breaks, no discounts, no deductions. Did you know the military has no 401K - One day short of 20 years & you get a big goose egg for your service. Serving 20 years flipping burgers at McD's has better benefits than serving this country. So bottom line is yes, serving in the military takes a huge love and pride of country.

BTW - I am a veteran and I have a large flag pole in my front yard - against Home Owner Association policy, and I fly my flag with pride 24 hours a day (has it's own solar light). If the flag gets weathered or worn, I replace it & burn the old one - as is the proper disposal. I also proudly hold my hand over my heart when the National Anthem is played - few others EVER do this any more. It's a sad, cynical country we live in today.

[Seth Dolcourt]

Hi, Tim,

I have several random thoughts, that I hope are tied enough together to make a point.

++++

One of my co-workers used his Navy enlistment to get out of a life situation where there were no prospects for him. His 3 siblings were each from different fathers. He would slap two pieces of bread together to make a "wish" sandwich. His shoes were duct taped to keep them together. It would be harder to be poorer.

I have no information to compare welfare benefits with military benefits. But I do know his first dental appointment in life was with a Navy dentist. Who paid into the Navy budget that provided my co-worker an enlistment slot, as well as the salary of the Navy dentist, as well as the aircraft carrier to which the dental chair was bolted? Tax payers.

As he saw no future until the Navy, he saw no future in the Navy, and left after his enlistment concluded. He steadily accumulated knowledge in IT, and has built a successful life for himself, wife and kids. If the military is non-competitive for a sustaining career compared to what corporations can offer, then that is a decision that people can act upon, given the voluntary nature of military servitude.

+++++

PBS produced this special http://www.pbs.org/weta/carrier/ . I've seen many like it, but none have this much good material. There are a bazillion angles, but here's mine - somewhere on that carrier was my tax money. I hope my money bought something brassy and shiny, or maybe something that goes "ping" or "whoosh", but frankly, I'm resigned to the fact that my tax money probably bought a 55 gallon drum of industrial grease. Whatever needed that grease, was able to have it, because I paid for it.

++++

Those helicopters that flew into Abbottabad and did that little thing - where did the money come from to pay for all of that?

++++

I also pay for the upkeep of national parks. And the census, and the things FEMA uses after natural disasters strike. And I probably bought a 55 gallon drum of Hubble Space Telescope grease, carried up by the space shuttle.

I am counted upon by a large number of people to pay for a great number of things that enable America to stomp the go pedal. I fund "us", which makes me a stakeholder in "our" success, and I get to share in the victories when we win.

So...yeah. All that, from being just a tax payer. Pretty cool.

[George Gyulatyan]

Patriotism to me is not about flying the flag, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or singing the praise of your country.

It is about wanting to make sure your country is the best in the world, contributing to it's advancement in whatever field you specialise in, wanting to have a country where people all over the world wish they live here, contributing to the society in a positive way, the best you can, however small it may seem or be.


Patriotism to me is not being afraid to criticize your government (not the country, but the government) when it's doing idiotic things, even if that means risking being labeled as "unpatriotic", "unamerican", etc.

Patriotism to me is supporting your troops. To me this also means caring for them, and having the respect for their lives to NOT send them into harm's way based on half-truths and lies.

Patriotism to me is supporting and defending the ideals that this great country was founded upon.

I am proud to be American, and I am dismayed at the charade that's been going on in Washington for the past 10 years.

[Derek Gilmer]

Hi, Tim,

I have several random thoughts, that I hope are tied enough together to make a point.

++++

One of my co-workers used his Navy enlistment to get out of a life situation where there were no prospects for him. His 3 siblings were each from different fathers. He would slap two pieces of bread together to make a "wish" sandwich. His shoes were duct taped to keep them together. It would be harder to be poorer.

I have no information to compare welfare benefits with military benefits. But I do know his first dental appointment in life was with a Navy dentist. Who paid into the Navy budget that provided my co-worker an enlistment slot, as well as the salary of the Navy dentist, as well as the aircraft carrier to which the dental chair was bolted? Tax payers.

As he saw no future until the Navy, he saw no future in the Navy, and left after his enlistment concluded. He steadily accumulated knowledge in IT, and has built a successful life for himself, wife and kids. If the military is non-competitive for a sustaining career compared to what corporations can offer, then that is a decision that people can act upon, given the voluntary nature of military servitude.

+++++

PBS produced this special http://www.pbs.org/weta/carrier/ . I've seen many like it, but none have this much good material. There are a bazillion angles, but here's mine - somewhere on that carrier was my tax money. I hope my money bought something brassy and shiny, or maybe something that goes "ping" or "whoosh", but frankly, I'm resigned to the fact that my tax money probably bought a 55 gallon drum of industrial grease. Whatever needed that grease, was able to have it, because I paid for it.

++++

Those helicopters that flew into Abbottabad and did that little thing - where did the money come from to pay for all of that?

++++

I also pay for the upkeep of national parks. And the census, and the things FEMA uses after natural disasters strike. And I probably bought a 55 gallon drum of Hubble Space Telescope grease, carried up by the space shuttle.

I am counted upon by a large number of people to pay for a great number of things that enable America to stomp the go pedal. I fund "us", which makes me a stakeholder in "our" success, and I get to share in the victories when we win.

So...yeah. All that, from being just a tax payer. Pretty cool.

Yep, you pay taxes. Just like the guy dodging bullets in buttcrackiztan pays taxes. Except you don't have to wipe your friends blood off your boots on occasion. Or have to spend 6 to 14 months with out being able to hold you family close. And you can go check on what went "bump" in the night instead of being stuck 2000+ miles away wondering what would happen if your wife was home alone and heard that noise. I've known a lot of people that have served in "easy" jobs like supply in the Army or serving on a carrier in the Navy. It still has a special kind of crap that daily life doesn't and you are still cut off from family. Service is "voluntary" once every 4 to 6 years. If my boss makes me mad I can walk out today AND get unemployment pay if I word it all correctly. That ain't the case in the .mil world. You get a free trip to .mil jail.

Paying taxes makes America work. But saying it is equal to military service is about like paying your trash pick up company is the same as spending 8+ hours a day digging through your towns trash.

[Neal Clayton]

First I want to say, I'm not calling you un-patriotic - you have your way, I have mine - no big deal.

However, as for your statement...
"Equal"!!! Really??? I find this statement to be completely offensive! Did you know that Welfare recipients have better compensation than many of our military members who are risking their lives, instead of being a lazy burden on society? Did you also know that out of that small military wage, they pay the same taxes you do - no breaks, no discounts, no deductions. Did you know the military has no 401K - One day short of 20 years & you get a big goose egg for your service. Serving 20 years flipping burgers at McD's has better benefits than serving this country. So bottom line is yes, serving in the military takes a huge love and pride of country.

BTW - I am a veteran and I have a large flag pole in my front yard - against Home Owner Association policy, and I fly my flag with pride 24 hours a day (has it's own solar light). If the flag gets weathered or worn, I replace it & burn the old one - as is the proper disposal. I also proudly hold my hand over my heart when the National Anthem is played - few others EVER do this any more. It's a sad, cynical country we live in today.

and when it comes to funding a new multi hundred billion dollar fighter jet that the military doesn't want congress will fight tooth and nail for the funding of it.
but when it's a matter of funding the military pension account? or giving some sick pay to NY police/firemen who were on site on 9/11? well, that's not as important, you can vote against those and get away with it if you're the same congressman.

maybe we should go back to the ways of the ancient world where soldiers got a share of the loot. in some ways, that was more civilized ;).

[Derek Gilmer]

and when it comes to funding a new multi hundred billion dollar fighter jet that the military doesn't want congress will fight tooth and nail for the funding of it.
but when it's a matter of funding the military pension account? or giving some sick pay to NY police/firemen who were on site on 9/11? well, that's not as important, you can vote against those and get away with it if you're the same congressman.

maybe we should go back to the ways of the ancient world where soldiers got a share of the loot. in some ways, that was more civilized ;).

Yep, a congressman doesn't get to make sure the factory to build a pension payment will be built in his district. Yeeehaww for politics.

If we are changing stuff how about we change what passes for punishment in D.C.. Steal millions/billions in pork funding and you might get talked bad about in an official meeting. I say we go with caning and being barred from anything but manual labor for the rest of your days. Preferably mowing the lawn of disabled vets. Now that is patriotism I can support :)

[George Gyulatyan]

We keep complaining about congress and keep voting for the same people. We are insane!

[Bryan Morgan]

Patriotism to me is not about flying the flag, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or singing the praise of your country.

It is about wanting to make sure your country is the best in the world, contributing to it's advancement in whatever field you specialise in, wanting to have a country where people all over the world wish they live here, contributing to the society in a positive way, the best you can, however small it may seem or be.


Patriotism to me is not being afraid to criticize your government (not the country, but the government) when it's doing idiotic things, even if that means risking being labeled as "unpatriotic", "unamerican", etc.

Patriotism to me is supporting your troops. To me this also means caring for them, and having the respect for their lives to NOT send them into harm's way based on half-truths and lies.

Patriotism to me is supporting and defending the ideals that this great country was founded upon.

I am proud to be American, and I am dismayed at the charade that's been going on in Washington for the past 10 years.

You stated that rather well. Good stuff.

[Dennis Peacock]

My government is not my country, nor is a piece of clothe with pretty patterns on it. My country is my neighbor, and their neighbor. I would much prefer it if everyone put their flags away and instead concentrated on improving their streets, then their neighborhoods, possibly their states, and ultimately their country.

This is very well stated..!!!! I agree AND concur.



Patriotism to me is not about flying the flag, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or singing the praise of your country.

It is about wanting to make sure your country is the best in the world, contributing to it's advancement in whatever field you specialise in, wanting to have a country where people all over the world wish they live here, contributing to the society in a positive way, the best you can, however small it may seem or be.


Patriotism to me is not being afraid to criticize your government (not the country, but the government) when it's doing idiotic things, even if that means risking being labeled as "unpatriotic", "unamerican", etc.

Patriotism to me is supporting your troops. To me this also means caring for them, and having the respect for their lives to NOT send them into harm's way based on half-truths and lies.

Patriotism to me is supporting and defending the ideals that this great country was founded upon.

I am proud to be American, and I am dismayed at the charade that's been going on in Washington for the past 10 years.

I AGREE 100%..!!!!