New Table Saw Advice

[Ryan Dyer]

Hey guys,

I just sold my ridgid portable table saw and i want to purchase a cabinet saw. I'm considering the the G0691 or the G1023RLX. I've been reading the other threads about these 2 saws and i am leaning towards the G1023RLX. I probably would be happy with either though. I like the fact that the G1023 series is made in Taiwan though as opposed to China.

Anyway, the saw is going to go in my garage so space is a premium. I plan on putting the saw on some type of mobile base so i can push it against the wall. Since space is a premium i really want to build some type of cabinet system into the mobile base. Similar to this setup http://www.plansnow.com/dn3090.html but for a cabinet saw. This would give me a lot of storage, and i can dual purpose for router.

I was planning on buying the G1023RLX since it would give me the long rails i need and eventually if i built a cabinet/bench system like the link above i just wouldn't use the extension table, or i would somehow integrate it. I figured it was worth the extra money just to get the longer rails.

Last night though, i got thinking. The price difference between the G1023RL and G1023RLX is $305. I can get the Vega Pro 50 with 50" to right for $329. Or for a bit (or a lot) more i could upgrade to one of the 52" incra fence systems. Would i be better off with the vega or incra fence over the stock grizzly?

At this point im confused as to which saw i should purchase. One with an extension table or one without. One of my concerns about making a custom cabinet like those plans is how do you level a custom extension table (ie cabinet top) with the saw table?

I would appreciate it any thoughts or advice from you guys.

[Dave Novak]

I love my incra fence so much that I'll move it to whatever my soon to be purchased saw upgrade will be. I'm hoping that I can buy a saw without a fence to save some money.

[Stan Mitchell]

Since your work space is at a premium like for most of us, consider the shorter length rail version if you don't need the extra length on a regular basis (regardless of model).

I've had the G0691 for a couple of years and think it's a terrific saw. However, I seldom cut sheet goods and have discovered that the extra length that the G0691 offers is just a place to accumulate clutter in my shop. I use my saw mostly for hardwood furniture projects where most of the use is processing lumber. So, if I were have a "do over", I would have gotten the G0690 and gained a bit more floor space. My most valuable accessories for my saw (and for my needs) are the cross cut sled and out-feed extension table. BTW, you'll still have room for a router with the smaller top.

If the opposite were true and I did a bunch of sheet goods work, I'd probably go all out and get a slider. :D

[Harvey Pascoe]

A saw table extension has to be precisely aligned otherwise your fence is going to bind or go off square. I think it unwise to try to have a moveable extension. Unsupported rails can easily get bent. You are going to pull on them for sure when you go to move the saw because those mobile bases do NOT roll all that well or easily. And if you have a table/cabinet attached to the rails, I can guarantee you will end up bending them. When you bend a rail you won't notice it, you will only notice that your fence is no longer square no matter what you do.

[scott spencer]

I can't really help your decision about which saw to get, but can tell you that even though the Vega is a very nice fence, I don't see there being anything gained by switching it out with the Shop Fox fence, other than possibly personal preference. Having owned both a Vega and a Shop Fox Classic, I think both are similarly capable IMHO....the Vega's microadjust is pretty slick, but I thick the SF Classic is more robust.

The Incra is in a different league for accuracy, repeatibility, and precision, etc., but is not without it's downsides...cost, space to the right of the blade, and even the lack of convenience of moving the fence out of the way easily. Since neither Grizzly saw is available without the fence, I'd give it a try before you make a decision about an upgrade...it's really a pretty nice fence...very similar to the Biese, Exacta, HTC, and other aftermarket t-square style fences. You may find that it suits your needs nicely...if not, then consider an upgrade later.

[Doug Colombo]

I had the Vega fence on my contractor's saw (now my son in laws) and loved it. In fact my new saw came with a 52" Biese and I have found that the Vega is much easier to remove from the saw then the Biese and has a micro adjust feature that when needed is nice. I can't compare it to the Shop Fox, but if they are about the same price, based on my experence, I would go with the Vega. As to the Incra, I agree with Scott - it is in a totally different league, and price point.

[Mark Ashmeade]

What's the perceived difference between tools made in the Republic of China, and those made in the People's Republic of China? I would think you could get good and bad in both. Same as US made, or Mexican, Spanish, whatever it may be.

[Chris Fournier]

It's true that you can get a clunker built anywhere. But...

For all of the "Proudly made in the USA" stickers that I've seen in my Canadian life I have to say that I'm disappointed with all of the import chatter on this site - largely from citizens of the US! Economic recovery is literally around the corner if you get on with it and spend your money on USA (Canadian/European - olive branch and open minded) quality made goods. I'm no union man but the prevalence of import goods and the current economic status of the US is as obvious as the proverbial trail of crumbs.

LN and LV hand planes are defacto; hell Festool is a cult, why are the machines you're buying cut from a cheaper cloth?

[Callan Campbell]

I have the stock 52" Delta Unisaw with the stock mobile base. Granted, it supports both the saw and the ext. table. I don't move the saw that often, but it moves easily and stays aligned once I'm done . While I agree with Harvey about the issue of possible problems with tables and bases, Delta seems to have done a nice job with it. Copy what they, and anyone who's also got a nice fully supporting base unit have done and make your tight space work for you as you need it to. Might take some work, but it will be worth it. I'm always grateful for the mobility in my basement shop.

[Jim O'Dell]

You can integrate a cabinet system with any saw. I built my own mobile system and the cabinet is built onto the base.207266 It in turn supports the rails and newly built extension table. 207267 I have an adjustment piece like this on each side of the cabinet. It adjusts front to back separately so that the entire extension is supported. The extension table is a torsion box with 3/4" MDF webbing, and 1/2" MDF skins. Barely visible are two T-nuts with bolts to do fine adjustment, then the outer rail you see uses thumb wheels from T-track to lock it down in position. The left side of the extension table is screwed into the factory CI wing, and even it has a little wiggle room for adjustment. It has worked very well for me.
Oh, as you can see, I have the G0691. :D Jim.

[Cary Falk]

If you have been reading the threads I am sure you probably seen my 1023RL. I bought the short rail and shifted it to the right for some extra rip capacity. Ethher way you would have room for a router. I made my own extension table out of MDF and formica. It is probably better made than anything that will come with it. I would make the extension table separate from the storage. It is easier to adjust the extension that way. The Shop Fox classic fence is a plenty capable fence. I have never had the Vega but I am not suer it is worth the upgrade. AS others have stated, the incra is in another league. Maybe I misread another comment about bending the rails, but there is no way you will bend the Shop Fox Classic rails moving it around on the moble base. The front rail is a 2"x3" steel tube attached to a 3"x3"(?) angle iron that is around 3/16" thick.

207279

[Ryan Dyer]

If you have been reading the threads I am sure you probably seen my 1023RL. I bought the short rail and shifted it to the right for some extra rip capacity. Ethher way you would have room for a router. I made my own extension table out of MDF and formica. It is probably better made than anything that will come with it. I would make the extension table separate from the storage. It is easier to adjust the extension that way. The Shop Fox classic fence is a plenty capable fence. I have never had the Vega but I am not suer it is worth the upgrade. AS others have stated, the incra is in another league. Maybe I misread another comment about bending the rails, but there is no way you will bend the Shop Fox Classic rails moving it around on the moble base. The front rail is a 2"x3" steel tube attached to a 3"x3"(?) angle iron that is around 3/16" thick.

207279

Cary,

Yes i have seen yours. What you have done is very similar to what i want to do. Custom base and all. By moving the rails to the right how much rip capacity did you gain? I also am considering the Grizzly Sliding table. If i remember correctly i think i read on another thread that you had the jessem? Is that available anymore? I couldnt seem to find it anywhere. How far does it stick out the back of the saw when the table is pulled all the way towards you the user?

Thanks!

[Ryan Dyer]

You can integrate a cabinet system with any saw. I built my own mobile system and the cabinet is built onto the base.207266 It in turn supports the rails and newly built extension table. 207267 I have an adjustment piece like this on each side of the cabinet. It adjusts front to back separately so that the entire extension is supported. The extension table is a torsion box with 3/4" MDF webbing, and 1/2" MDF skins. Barely visible are two T-nuts with bolts to do fine adjustment, then the outer rail you see uses thumb wheels from T-track to lock it down in position. The left side of the extension table is screwed into the factory CI wing, and even it has a little wiggle room for adjustment. It has worked very well for me.
Oh, as you can see, I have the G0691. :D Jim.

Thanks for the pics and info Jim! Exactly the kind of info i was looking for.

Here is just one path im considering (i have like 3 different paths that i could do), Grizzly doesnt have the G1023RLX in stock right now and probably wont for 2 months. Im a little impatient so i was thinking of getting the G1023RL with the standard rails, build my own extension table/cabinet and then purchase aftermarket fence system since like the incra or vega to get the long rails so i have 50+" rip. I save $305 by purchasing the G1023RL over the G1023RLX which i could use toward an aftermarket fence. My concern was if i am biting off more then i can chew and is it worth it...since i dont have a cabinet saw nor have i ever owned one i am not sure exactly how to make sure the whole ordeal is level and flat if i build my own. So basically i would get additional storage integrated plus if i went with the incra, a better fence system for a bit more money...

[Ryan Dyer]

I want a cabinet saw with 50+ rip capacity. I am also considering either a sliding table attachment or an incra miter 5000 sled.

I have a 20x40 RV garage attached to my house. Wood working is jsut one of my hobbies so i cannot leave the saw out in the middle of the garage. I got other toys that need to go there like my toy hauler, utv etc.. So all my tools need to move to the sides of the garage. I am thinking of storing the table saw in the back corner, that way if i get a sliding table it will be against the back wall and not stick out to far and reduce the width of a RV or whatever i pull into the garage.


Money is an issue and that's why i have decided on Grizzly. I feel its the best bang for the buck for what i'll need for next 20-30 years.

My options...

1) G1023RLX - out of stock, 6-8 weeks. EDIT: Just called and have confirmed date of oct 7th.
2) G0691
3) G1023RL + aftermarket fence with long rails and custom extension table/cabinet

No matter which saw i get, i want to utilize the space under the extension table for storage and put the whole setup on a mobile base.

[Cary Falk]

Cary,

Yes i have seen yours. What you have done is very similar to what i want to do. Custom base and all. By moving the rails to the right how much rip capacity did you gain? I also am considering the Grizzly Sliding table. If i remember correctly i think i read on another thread that you had the jessem? Is that available anymore? I couldnt seem to find it anywhere. How far does it stick out the back of the saw when the table is pulled all the way towards you the user?

Thanks!

Ryan,
I don't think JessEm is making them anymore. Yo can't find them online anywhere. I know a local place here in town tht still has one but that is about it.When you pull the table all the way towards the user there is nothing that sticks out the back. In it's locked stored position(front of table flush with front of the saw table), the table sticks out 12.5" past the table. It sticks out 16.5 " from the left of the table. I have a rip capacity of about 34 inches. I shifted my bracket and tube because of the sliding table. I think others have reported a gain of 10" (total (36"?)if you just shift the tube by one screw.
Cary

[Ryan Dyer]

Thanks Cary for the measurements. i wasnt aware of the 12.5" past the table in locked position. I am glad you told me about it since that probably is a deal killer for me. The JessEm looks very similar to the grizzly so im thinking it will have similar measurements. The 12.5" would make the whole saw stick out like 4 feet from the wall which is to much. I guess i could leave it in unlocked postion. Or maybe drill a whole and drop a pin in to lock it so the slider is flush with back of saw table.

Is the sliding table worth the money? I reread your thread about the saw and you said you dont need the 52" rip with the slider. How come?

Thanks!

[Cary Falk]

Thanks Cary for the measurements. i wasnt aware of the 12.5" past the table in locked position. I am glad you told me about it since that probably is a deal killer for me. The JessEm looks very similar to the grizzly so im thinking it will have similar measurements. The 12.5" would make the whole saw stick out like 4 feet from the wall which is to much. I guess i could leave it in unlocked postion. Or maybe drill a whole and drop a pin in to lock it so the slider is flush with back of saw table.

Is the sliding table worth the money? I reread your thread about the saw and you said you dont need the 52" rip with the slider. How come?

Thanks!

I really like mine. I rarely ripped plywood on mine I used it for more for crosscutting things square and to the same length. Things like hope chest lids, cabinet sides, etc. Not really the best application but I never have a problem. I can do it a lot safer and easier now with the same amount of precision and I don't have to fiddle to get the first sied square to put against the fence.

EDIT to add: I never could get a homemade sled to cut as square as I wanted.

[Jeff Mackay]

Ryan,

I have the 691 with the sliding table (and still owe the Creek a review of the sliding table). In short, I'd recommend both. The sliding table was relatively easy to set up, and it is solid, square, and smooth. By default, the sliding table replaces the extension to the left of the blade, so you won't see a significant increase in the width of the whole unit (although I did need to cut the rip fence rails). If you'd like, I can go down to the shop and take some measurements for you. The biggest positive is that I can crosscut 4x8 sheets of plywood, laminate, etc. without a lot of trouble. The biggest drawback is that the supplied miter gauge doesn't have the precision or repeatability you'd get out of an aftermarket gauge.

[Jim O'Dell]

Ryan, if I had realized I could get the longer Biese rails for a little over 200 bucks when I bought my saw, I'd have gone with the 690 and swapped fences with my contractor saw. The difference would have paid for half the rails. Oh, and I didn't say earlier but I moved the rails on my 691 to the right about 13" so that I have right at 65" to the right of the blade, and nothing to the left. I will eventually get the longer rails for the Biese fence and swap fence systems, or try to align the rails so that I can use the Biese fence on both saws. The fence on the 690/1 is nice, but it doesn't have the weight of the Biese. I find when I lock the fence down, the back end comes up. I've devised, on paper, a way to keep that from happening, but then the fence would be a pain in the tookus to get off the rails. My Biese doesn't do that. Don't know how the Shop Fox fence does in that regard.
I was fortunate to get to help a fellow Creeker with the basic set up and initial alignment of his 1023RLX and I admit it is a very nice saw. I still think I would choose the 691 for me. The ease of being able to cut the removable door for the dust collection hookup to modify for 6" hook up, and that the door is on the right side of the saw is a big deal to me. The Leeson designed motor, even though it is built in China, comes into play somewhat. The trunnion is the old style tried and true set up, so there was little gamble there, although the 1023R series have had no complaints and Adrian's seemed to be very smooth in operation. It just requires you to decide between a couple feature differences. It was much easier for me than deciding what to get for a Band Saw.:p Jim.

[Ryan Dyer]

Ryan,

I have the 691 with the sliding table (and still owe the Creek a review of the sliding table). In short, I'd recommend both. The sliding table was relatively easy to set up, and it is solid, square, and smooth. By default, the sliding table replaces the extension to the left of the blade, so you won't see a significant increase in the width of the whole unit (although I did need to cut the rip fence rails). If you'd like, I can go down to the shop and take some measurements for you. The biggest positive is that I can crosscut 4x8 sheets of plywood, laminate, etc. without a lot of trouble. The biggest drawback is that the supplied miter gauge doesn't have the precision or repeatability you'd get out of an aftermarket gauge.

Jeff,

Can you store the saw so the sliding table is flush with the back of the saws table? Im suprised you had to cut the rails, i would have thought since Grizzly seems to list that as an accessory to the 690/691 i would thought it would a simple bolt on installation.

[Ryan Dyer]

Ryan, if I had realized I could get the longer Biese rails for a little over 200 bucks when I bought my saw, I'd have gone with the 690 and swapped fences with my contractor saw. The difference would have paid for half the rails. Oh, and I didn't say earlier but I moved the rails on my 691 to the right about 13" so that I have right at 65" to the right of the blade, and nothing to the left. I will eventually get the longer rails for the Biese fence and swap fence systems, or try to align the rails so that I can use the Biese fence on both saws. The fence on the 690/1 is nice, but it doesn't have the weight of the Biese. I find when I lock the fence down, the back end comes up. I've devised, on paper, a way to keep that from happening, but then the fence would be a pain in the tookus to get off the rails. My Biese doesn't do that. Don't know how the Shop Fox fence does in that regard.
I was fortunate to get to help a fellow Creeker with the basic set up and initial alignment of his 1023RLX and I admit it is a very nice saw. I still think I would choose the 691 for me. The ease of being able to cut the removable door for the dust collection hookup to modify for 6" hook up, and that the door is on the right side of the saw is a big deal to me. The Leeson designed motor, even though it is built in China, comes into play somewhat. The trunnion is the old style tried and true set up, so there was little gamble there, although the 1023R series have had no complaints and Adrian's seemed to be very smooth in operation. It just requires you to decide between a couple feature differences. It was much easier for me than deciding what to get for a Band Saw.:p Jim.

Jim,

Based on your post, i take it your recommending i get the 1023RL, save the $305, and use it towards an aftermarket fence. Or at least thats what you would do if you had to do it over?

After watching the videos of the incra fence, i might do just that. The very precise measurements and cuts are what i am after. The savings would cover almost half of what it would cost to upgrade to the incra 52" fence system. And being how im incredibly anal when it comes to cuts and precision it would save me a lot stress :)

[Jim O'Dell]

I've never used the Incra table saw fence, but I will tell you I love my Incra router table system fence!! If you are going to put your router in the TS extension you build, does the Incra TS system double for the router table? Seems like it does. If so, that would be a very nice way to go. Yes, If you think you want the Incra fence, now is the time to do it. Be sure to check around on pricing. IIRC, I got my LS system from Eagle tools for the best price at that time, but looking right quick, I don't see that they carry the TS system. Be sure to check around for best pricing on the model you decide on. Jim.

[Will Blick]

Nice set up Cary!

My only suggestion is, beware of the Incra fence. I have a love/hate relationship with both of mine. I also think the concept is a bit dated. Here is why. You can buy a Wixey digital read-out that you can adapt to any fence, this will give you the accuracy of the Incra, .001". There is a few drawbacks with the Incra. As mentioned, it takes up a huge amount of space at the side. I imagine Incra will change this design in the future and integrate the precision screw in the rails to solve this problem. If you use the shorter LS, you are forced to move the unit up n back on the rails to get to the desired distance. This is where the problems arise, as part of the fence squareness if a function of the set-up. And you only do set up, with the rail-riders at one position. Once you move them, you effect rail squareness as no matter how hard you try, its nearly impossible to get the rails perfectly parallel and perpendicular to the blade....so some of the accuracy leaves the system when you do NOT use the longest LS.

many times, you just want a rough cut, say +/- 1/32" is fine.... this is where the incra is a PITA, specially if you use the smaller LS...too much fussin, gets tiresome. I also prefer the robustness of non-incra fences. I can understand why Marc the "Wood-whisperer" dumped his Incra system in lieu of a more traditional system. the one point he raised is, most of his TS cuts are not to final dimension, so why fuss with such a fence? I agree. So consider the Wixey DRO in addition to whatever fence you like the best, I think its the best of both worlds....

[Ryan Dyer]

Will,

Thanks for your input! I was originally planning on getting the Wixey with the G1023RLX. That was until a few days ago when i discovered the incra. I had never heard of the incra fence. You brought up some good points. If i do get the incra i will be getting the longer 52" version with the wonder fence and most likely router table too. From what your saying i should NOT have accuracy problems with the longer rails correct?

I am little confused why the incra would be a PITA when doing a rough cut... wouldn't you just slide the fence down and lock the lever just like you would with normal fence?

I am sorry if this is a stupid question, but i am just starting this hobby. If most of Marc table saw cuts are not to final dimension, where else would he do it? Everything i have made i cut the wood to dimension either on my portable TS or on my 30 year old RAS.

My biggest beef with the incra that i can tell so far is the flipping gold color (yuck) and the 2 fence lock down knobs. Why wouldn't you use a quick flip down lock or something instead of a screw down.


I really appreciate everyones input. This is going to be a large purchase and i would like to do it right the first time :)

[Jim O'Dell]

My biggest beef with the Incra that i can tell so far is the flipping gold color (yuck) and the 2 fence lock down knobs. Why wouldn't you use a quick flip down lock or something instead of a screw down.



The green of the Grizzly and the gold of the Incra... 'Sic 'Em Bears!!!!! I love the combination! Of course, I drink Dr. Pepper, the national drink of Baylor!:D:D:D Jim.

[Will Blick]

> My biggest beef with the incra that i can tell so far is the flipping gold color (yuck) and the 2 fence lock down knobs. Why wouldn't you use a quick flip down lock or something instead of a screw down.


This was my point..... I will try to explain more clearly as I might have used wrong terminology..... if you get the long size LS, the Gold rail-riders, (which hold the LS positioner base) with the black wing nutz stay fixed in ONE position, they don't move...you simply move the fence in and out of the positioner base...you can see this on many of the videos. This is how the system is designed to work.... and it works excellent in this set up.... the weakness is, the positioner can stick way out the far end of the saw, if you have a small shop, this is an incredible nuisance. But system is accurate.... maybe just a thou more accurate than Wixey DRO and normal fence...

However, what some have done, like me, is use the short positioner, such as the 17", now you only have 14" cut capacity from blade.... to get further cut capacity, you must loosen the black wing nutz and slide the entire postioner base assembly further down the rail, then use some pre cut 1 ft squares you can place between blade and fence, to know where you are at. this is so, you don't have to re-register scale setting every time.... so this is the constant PITA..... and, you have to remember, the reading is +2ft, more room for error. This is why I have a love / hate relationship with the unit.

If you have no space issues, and can let it hang out, its an accurate fence system, with just a mediocre fence vs. the big name fences which can really take abuse...much depends on if its for fine woodworking more more construction grade stuff, like cutting bigger sheet goods, etc.

The one potential advantage of the LS system is if you have a router at the other end of the table, now it can do double duty..... so its more cost effective, and you get more value out of the system.... this is why I mentioned, it has tremendous pros/cons....

If I were do set up another TS today, I would buy a hardcore fence and Wixey DRO, that is accurate enough for a TS, and you have FAST position fence.... when I bought my Incra set up, the DRO tools were not available for TS's.... Hope this helps.... as you can tell, there is no right/wrong, much depends one what type of work you do, and how much patience you have...

[Ryan Dyer]

> My biggest beef with the incra that i can tell so far is the flipping gold color (yuck) and the 2 fence lock down knobs. Why wouldn't you use a quick flip down lock or something instead of a screw down.


This was my point..... I will try to explain more clearly as I might have used wrong terminology..... if you get the long size LS, the Gold rail-riders, (which hold the LS positioner base) with the black wing nutz stay fixed in ONE position, they don't move...you simply move the fence in and out of the positioner base...you can see this on many of the videos. This is how the system is designed to work.... and it works excellent in this set up.... the weakness is, the positioner can stick way out the far end of the saw, if you have a small shop, this is an incredible nuisance. But system is accurate.... maybe just a thou more accurate than Wixey DRO and normal fence...

I see what you mean.


> However, what some have done, like me, is use the short positioner, such as the 17", now you only have 14" cut capacity from blade.... to get further cut capacity, you must loosen the black wing nutz and slide the entire postioner base assembly further down the rail, then use some pre cut 1 ft squares you can place between blade and fence, to know where you are at. this is so, you don't have to re-register scale setting every time.... so this is the constant PITA..... and, you have to remember, the reading is +2ft, more room for error. This is why I have a love / hate relationship with the unit.

I skimmed the directions last night, but i thought it remember it saying that it included multiple packs of stop hardware. So you could setup different distances. Is there a reason you used wood blocks instead of the hardware stops?


>If you have no space issues, and can let it hang out, its an accurate fence system, with just a mediocre fence vs. the big name fences which can really take abuse...much depends on if its for fine woodworking more more construction grade stuff, like cutting bigger sheet goods, etc.

The one potential advantage of the LS system is if you have a router at the other end of the table, now it can do double duty..... so its more cost effective, and you get more value out of the system.... this is why I mentioned, it has tremendous pros/cons....

If I were do set up another TS today, I would buy a hardcore fence and Wixey DRO, that is accurate enough for a TS, and you have FAST position fence.... when I bought my Incra set up, the DRO tools were not available for TS's.... Hope this helps.... as you can tell, there is no right/wrong, much depends one what type of work you do, and how much patience you have...

I really like the Wixey. I decided on the G1023RL series, which has the shop fox classic. I read reviews on that fence and it seems everyone complains about the plastic window for looking at your measurements. Rather then screwing around with fixing it, i figured i would just use the Wixey. At $100 the price is right and to me its a no brainer. Way more accurate then i could ever be looking at the plastic window anyway.

Right now, my projects are more "construction" grade then fine wood working. Doesnt mean i wont do it in the future, i just dont have any desire to make a cutting board etc...right now. Im currently building garage/shop cabinets, then im going to do closest cabinet/organization system then probably a desk and bookshelfs for my office and probably a enterainment center for my tv.

So as it sits right now, im doing one of two things

1) G1023RLX with Wixey
2) G1023RL with Incra TS-LS-WF 52" and right hand router table.

Option 2 is $451 more, but im also getting a very nice router setup. So its not really apples to apples.


One final thing i want to mention. After reading a LOT of reviews about the Incra fence. It seems the negatives are related to the products operation and the users way of doing things. For me, the 2 step fence lock down is annoying and so is having to add 2 ft to your measurement like Will mentions when ripping sheet goods. But so is ping ponging the fence, trying to move it .001" :D, and replacing batteries. Not sure what drives me nuts more. This is going to be a very hard choice.

[Will Blick]

Ryan, you are doing your homework, hopefully it will pay off...nothing worse than buyers remorse :-)

as for the Incra stops.... Yes, you can use stops on the rail, as you suggested (maybe you can reference that for me so I am sure we are talking about the same thing)...the problem is, with a very short Positioner I have, 17", I need a series of stops to go out to the edge of the rail.... so the rail stops are a nuisance as I have to constantly have to flip around LS for use on the router table...so I just use blocks....

and sadly enough, I just bought a Wixey, and a second set of Incra rail guides (or rail slides?) and will build a simulated Shop Fox type fence without the positioner, just the wixey DRO...so I will leave that on the bulk of the time, and only use the LS positioner when I am pressed for extreme positioning tasks. Had the DRO's been available long ago, I would have not bought the Incra...

you mention construction grade stuff, or not fine woodworking.... that leads me to think your ShopFox / DRO is ideal, or any other heavy duty fence. Many of them are pretty solid, specially vs. the Incra.

The only caveat, and its a space issue again, is if you put a router table at the end of the TS, and you want to do precision type of work the Incra excels at this, it really does. As it turns out, I do less than I thought, but when I do, its a dream set up. So as you can see, its a set of trade-offs here..... the router table at the end of the TS is rock solid vs standalone unit and its one less machine you must contend with. And, if you go with the Incra, the fence serves double duty, so you may enjoy the value. Again, how much high precision routing will you do? if not a lot, than forget it... Incra router system is great for dovetails, box joints, flutes, raised panels, edge jointing, etc. This was/is the bread n butter of the Incra. But for more simplified routing, such as edge routing or edge jointing, there is much simpler lower cost router fences....

Also, I think its MLSC who makes Cast Iron router tables for TS extensions. If there were available, I would have used them... not sure of weight capacity of Incra rails, you may want to check first. the mass of the metal helps in routing...and you can use magnet feather board type products which is so nice vs. the T track type...

or you can consider what I plan to do.... by an extra set of incra rail guides, and build your own Quickie fence and integrate the Wixey DRO, it relatively low cost way to have a simple to use fence, and the option to drop on the Incra positioner on whenever you like. Remember, the cost of the Incra LS can be shared with the router system to, making it less costly vs. buying a separate router table with incra system on the table.

Its a touch call.... mostly depends on what the bulk of your work will be.... hopefully this added info, will help you better decide.

[Will Blick]

Oh one last add-on.... if you order something from the Incra website, and sing up, they email you a coupon for 10 or 15% off your next order, so if you time that right, and buy a small item to start, then the big order with the coupon, some added savings to stretch your tool dollars...

btw, and I hate to throw a monkey wrench into your decision....but have you ruled out a small slider TS? That is the only other thing I would do next time...I like my PM2000 TS, but after 5 years of use, I really appreciate the value of a small sliding TS...not for sheets, (I relegate all large sheets to the Festool rail system) but for common smaller cuts.... Its so nice to let the saw move the work piece, vs. you forcing the workpiece against the friction of the table. I tried a few sliders and now drool for one...

[Jeff Mackay]

Ryan,

No. The sliding table, when locked, protrudes by about 4" to the back of the saw, and 12" to the front. The table itself is about 4' long, and the saw, with fence rails, is about 32" deep. As far as cutting the rails, I was surprised as well. I suppose i might have been able to shift everything like Jim did, but I didn't want the extra length, so I cut the rails. Also, I requested a kit from Grizzly with a longer power cord to allow me to mount the switch at the front of the table. Did I mention that I really like the sliding table? I just finished cross-cutting a couple of 4x8 sheets of plywood tonight. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to do that very easily with a sled.

[Ryan Dyer]

Ryan, you are doing your homework, hopefully it will pay off...nothing worse than buyers remorse :-)

as for the Incra stops.... Yes, you can use stops on the rail, as you suggested (maybe you can reference that for me so I am sure we are talking about the same thing)...the problem is, with a very short Positioner I have, 17", I need a series of stops to go out to the edge of the rail.... so the rail stops are a nuisance as I have to constantly have to flip around LS for use on the router table...so I just use blocks....

and sadly enough, I just bought a Wixey, and a second set of Incra rail guides (or rail slides?) and will build a simulated Shop Fox type fence without the positioner, just the wixey DRO...so I will leave that on the bulk of the time, and only use the LS positioner when I am pressed for extreme positioning tasks. Had the DRO's been available long ago, I would have not bought the Incra...

you mention construction grade stuff, or not fine woodworking.... that leads me to think your ShopFox / DRO is ideal, or any other heavy duty fence. Many of them are pretty solid, specially vs. the Incra.

The only caveat, and its a space issue again, is if you put a router table at the end of the TS, and you want to do precision type of work the Incra excels at this, it really does. As it turns out, I do less than I thought, but when I do, its a dream set up. So as you can see, its a set of trade-offs here..... the router table at the end of the TS is rock solid vs standalone unit and its one less machine you must contend with. And, if you go with the Incra, the fence serves double duty, so you may enjoy the value. Again, how much high precision routing will you do? if not a lot, than forget it... Incra router system is great for dovetails, box joints, flutes, raised panels, edge jointing, etc. This was/is the bread n butter of the Incra. But for more simplified routing, such as edge routing or edge jointing, there is much simpler lower cost router fences....

Also, I think its MLSC who makes Cast Iron router tables for TS extensions. If there were available, I would have used them... not sure of weight capacity of Incra rails, you may want to check first. the mass of the metal helps in routing...and you can use magnet feather board type products which is so nice vs. the T track type...

or you can consider what I plan to do.... by an extra set of incra rail guides, and build your own Quickie fence and integrate the Wixey DRO, it relatively low cost way to have a simple to use fence, and the option to drop on the Incra positioner on whenever you like. Remember, the cost of the Incra LS can be shared with the router system to, making it less costly vs. buying a separate router table with incra system on the table.

Its a touch call.... mostly depends on what the bulk of your work will be.... hopefully this added info, will help you better decide.

We are talking about the same stops. It looks like in the manual they go on the bottom of the track. I can definitely see why its a love/hate relationship.

Maybe i'm mis interpreting what your writing, but it sounds like your disappointed with the stiffness or durability of the incra. According to some of the reviews they claim it has the least amount of deflection compared to the T style. Is there something else that gives you that opinion?

My line of thinking is i want something that can do it all. I already have cheap sears benchtop router table that i got for $100. It works ok, but theres not precision to it whatsoever. I dont have a dedicated wood shop, im sharing my rv garage with other toys. So in my case, the saw will be stored against the wall when not in use, and then moved into the middle of the garage when im doing a project. So i should have plenty of room for the incra system. I am lacking floorspace though for storage, so thats why i want to integrate the table saw and the router table. Kill 2 birds with one stone. I want to make it into a mobile workstation. Add a fold up outfeed table on the back and maybe even buy one of those small dust collectors eventually and have built in dust collection, once i get more time/money. This way i can quickly set it up and tear it down for storage. I might work on a project for a month, then not use it again for 6 months.

I really like that cast iron router table. Similar cost to incras wood version too. I could use the MLCS with the incra setup correct?

I also really like the simple operation of the Wixey and the shop fox classic. The ease of zeroing out the wixey seems really nice, and being able to move it all they way over to 52" easily is nice. I also like the smaller footprint. And this is kinda dumb, but i prefer the look and the perceived "heavy duty" ness of the shop fox classic.

At the moment, I am leaning towards the Incra for a couple reasons. First, with my limited experience, even though im doing construction grade stuff, i expect perfection. I expect everything to line up perfectly. Its probably the computer engineer in me. In the computer world everything is exact for the most part. I tell the computer to draw a line 100 pixels wide, its exactly 100 pixels wide. Currently i cut a board 4", well its not 4", its some where in the range of +- 1/32 of 4". Drives me crazy. The wixey would solve part of this, but you still cant move the fence in uniform increments. The incra would solve all of it, BUT i have to get used to the quarks of the incra.

So, while the incra has some annoying things, it wont prohibt me from doing any task. For instance, ripping a 4x8 in half, the incra can still do it, sure its a couple extra steps, 3 hold downs instead of 1, remembering to add 2ft or whatever to the tape scale, having to read the tape scale as opposed to seeing a digital readout. But i can still do it. But i gain an awesome router setup, and great precision for when i do want to do those precise cuts. The incra uses a lead screw just like a metal mill would and those are all about precision.

I certainly have not made up my mind yet. I need to think whether its worth the money and the big question is if i really need it or would the SFC and wixey be more then enough. But I like to buy tools that are more then I need. It seems that whenever i buy something thinking, oh thats all i need. Its not 2 months later and guess what. Really could have used the bigger tool. Of course this is all within reason and budget.



Oh one last add-on.... if you order something from the Incra website, and sing up, they email you a coupon for 10 or 15% off your next order, so if you time that right, and buy a small item to start, then the big order with the coupon, some added savings to stretch your tool dollars...

btw, and I hate to throw a monkey wrench into your decision....but have you ruled out a small slider TS? That is the only other thing I would do next time...I like my PM2000 TS, but after 5 years of use, I really appreciate the value of a small sliding TS...not for sheets, (I relegate all large sheets to the Festool rail system) but for common smaller cuts.... Its so nice to let the saw move the work piece, vs. you forcing the workpiece against the friction of the table. I tried a few sliders and now drool for one...

Thanks for the tip on the coupon. The slider is out of the question. It past my budget. In fact the incra is really pushing my budget. If i was doing this every day i would do it. But at this point in my life, 29, i have a lot of other things i want to purchase. I think ill leave that one for later in life :) Btw..im assuming you mean a true slider table saw, not an addon like the grizzly sliding table.

[Ryan Dyer]

Ryan,

No. The sliding table, when locked, protrudes by about 4" to the back of the saw, and 12" to the front. The table itself is about 4' long, and the saw, with fence rails, is about 32" deep. As far as cutting the rails, I was surprised as well. I suppose i might have been able to shift everything like Jim did, but I didn't want the extra length, so I cut the rails. Also, I requested a kit from Grizzly with a longer power cord to allow me to mount the switch at the front of the table. Did I mention that I really like the sliding table? I just finished cross-cutting a couple of 4x8 sheets of plywood tonight. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to do that very easily with a sled.

Jeff,

Thanks for the dimensions. 4" would probably be doable. That would make the saw stick out probably 36-38" from the wall. more then i would like but could probably get by. I really like the sliding table, but i think i have decided to leave it for later, mainly for cost reasons. I can get the incra 5000 sled for about 1/3rd the price of the slider. I realize its not in the same league, but it will get me buy. Compared to what im doing now, the 5000 is a MAJOR upgrade. I figure later on down the road i could get a sliding table, and if i dont need the sled, take the miter off the sled and use it as a stand alone.

[Will Blick]

> According to some of the reviews they claim it has the least amount of deflection compared to the T style. Is there something else that gives you that opinion?


Well, the Incra FENCE alone is not as stiff as the big name fences, you can just look at them a see with your eyes...however, the Incra "can" be hinged at both sides of the rail, and this prevents fence movement, which can throw off the square of a cut. But to do this, you have to run over to the other side of the TS, and tighten the far side to the rail, which again, is a constant nuisance. So once again, the answer is both true n false, its according to how you want to use each. The benefit of the big name fences is, simple to set, relatively solid, specially if you don't put pressure on the far side of the fence where its not locked down.


Glad you provided more info..... as for moving the saw constantly.... this throws some monkey wrenches in your decision making. It took me and a helper about 1/2 day to get my Incra Rails Perfectly parallel AND level the entire lengths, and they are long, IIRC, about 65". (they will cut them to any length you want). Because the incra has rails on both sides, the system is very finicky in this regard, unlike a regular Fence which as the benefits of a single side rail. So moving the TS, will change the height of the rails and the rail guides can stick when one side is higher than the other and / or out of parallel, or have too much slop if the rails move inward.... this again throws off the square...sure you can constantly correct for this stuff, but it can be very time consuming. And that is my point.... you buy the incra system for one reason, precision cuts, repeatable cuts, incrementally spaced cuts with no effort or test cuts, etc. And it really is ideal for these tasks...but once you take a system that is set to work within .001" settings and start throwing all your components several thou at, you loose the extreme precision the system is designed for. I think you will be disappointed with the amount of tweaking. Once I got mine NUTZ on, its in lock down mode, and will never move, hence why I went with the short LS positioner. Glad you mentioned this, cause this is a critical decision factor for you.... if it were me, I would buy a big name fence and use the Wixey DRO, you have the best of all worlds, and with only one rail, you can move the saw around....assuming you don't support the end of the saw by the rail. With the Incra, the rails must be supported at the ends with legs....this is a HUGE difference when it comes to moving the saw. Mine is on a custom built mobile base but if I move it, the change in floor height will throw it out..... its rare any garage floor is dead level.


>At the moment, I am leaning towards the Incra for a couple reasons. First, with my limited experience, even though im doing construction grade stuff, i expect perfection. I expect everything to line up perfectly. Its probably the computer engineer in me. In the computer world everything is exact for the most part. I tell the computer to draw a line 100 pixels wide, its exactly 100 pixels wide. Currently i cut a board 4", well its not 4", its some where in the range of +- 1/32 of 4". Drives me crazy. The wixey would solve part of this, but you still cant move the fence in uniform increments. The incra would solve all of it, BUT i have to get used to the quarks of the incra.


You sound like me, scary... I am an engineer, ww is a side biz / hobby. My number one hobby / side biz, is photography, where I deal with printing images 20 ft long, then frame them myself in the wood shop...so I know all about tracking down pixels and precision in every step... its an obsession, trust me. And not a healthy one, I have a house full of gadgets that demonstrate my point :-) However, in engineering, the one thing you learn over time (cause we are all thick-in-the-head in this regard).... precision systems are only as precise as their weakest link. In addition, there is what we call tolerance stacking, where we place tolerances of different parts of a system atop each other, this finds the real-world tolerance of the entire system. Which is never anywhere near the precision of one component. Its this point that you see argued on ww forums all the time, as many don't understand that while .001" tolerances are ww are EXTREME, its the combination of all the tolerances that set the final tolerances, which is rarely this dream .001" value. But the tighter all the tolerances, the tighter the real-world tolerance. So, it sounds like to me, you are souped up over the 1 thous incremental positioning of the Incra, agreed, but that is only one part of the entire system. What happens when your rails are out of alignment from TS movement, and now your cuts are not square? What good is the .001" incremental movements? Get my drift here? (excuse the pun)

Based on all your criteria, I think you would be much happier with a Big Name fence, Wixey DRO and a positioner like this, which can still assure you .001" movements of the fence.... call it a hybrid system which is more friendly to TS re-positioning....

207461


The only caveat to this is the router table.... and IMO, the real value of the Incra is incremental cutting, such as edge joinery, DT's, Box joints, etc. However, I would suggest with the savings, if you plan to do this type of work, its better to do on a dedicated jig such as a Leigh or PC...you will have plenty of savings to pay for it.... then for router fence, something like the Woodpecker Super Fence is superb for edge profiling....

hope this helps...

[Ryan Dyer]

Glad you provided more info..... as for moving the saw constantly.... this throws some monkey wrenches in your decision making. It took me and a helper about 1/2 day to get my Incra Rails Perfectly parallel AND level the entire lengths, and they are long, IIRC, about 65". (they will cut them to any length you want). Because the incra has rails on both sides, the system is very finicky in this regard, unlike a regular Fence which as the benefits of a single side rail. So moving the TS, will change the height of the rails and the rail guides can stick when one side is higher than the other and / or out of parallel, or have too much slop if the rails move inward.... this again throws off the square...sure you can constantly correct for this stuff, but it can be very time consuming. And that is my point.... you buy the incra system for one reason, precision cuts, repeatable cuts, incrementally spaced cuts with no effort or test cuts, etc. And it really is ideal for these tasks...but once you take a system that is set to work within .001" settings and start throwing all your components several thou at, you loose the extreme precision the system is designed for. I think you will be disappointed with the amount of tweaking. Once I got mine NUTZ on, its in lock down mode, and will never move, hence why I went with the short LS positioner. Glad you mentioned this, cause this is a critical decision factor for you.... if it were me, I would buy a big name fence and use the Wixey DRO, you have the best of all worlds, and with only one rail, you can move the saw around....assuming you don't support the end of the saw by the rail. With the Incra, the rails must be supported at the ends with legs....this is a HUGE difference when it comes to moving the saw. Mine is on a custom built mobile base but if I move it, the change in floor height will throw it out..... its rare any garage floor is dead level.

Good point. If don't get the incra, im getting the G1023RLX which is this one http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3-HP-220V-Cabinet-Left-Tilting-Table-Saw/G1023RLX. Based on the pic, it looks like the extension table support legs attach to the rail. So i am going to have similar issues with this setup as well. Of course there is less contacts point etc, so its probably more forgiving.

I wondered if moving it would cause issues. I see a lot of saws on mobiles bases so i figured it must not affect it to much. I was planning on building my own out out of some thick steel to make it very ridgid. But it will still flex. What i should do, regardless of what saw im going to purchase, is figure out where im going to use it in the garage and mark the area on floor. Do my setup in that specific location and then move it to that same location every time i use it. I think that would help minimize the issue.


You sound like me, scary... I am an engineer, ww is a side biz / hobby. My number one hobby / side biz, is photography, where I deal with printing images 20 ft long, then frame them myself in the wood shop...so I know all about tracking down pixels and precision in every step... its an obsession, trust me. And not a healthy one, I have a house full of gadgets that demonstrate my point :-) However, in engineering, the one thing you learn over time (cause we are all thick-in-the-head in this regard).... precision systems are only as precise as their weakest link. In addition, there is what we call tolerance stacking, where we place tolerances of different parts of a system atop each other, this finds the real-world tolerance of the entire system. Which is never anywhere near the precision of one component. Its this point that you see argued on ww forums all the time, as many don't understand that while .001" tolerances are ww are EXTREME, its the combination of all the tolerances that set the final tolerances, which is rarely this dream .001" value. But the tighter all the tolerances, the tighter the real-world tolerance. So, it sounds like to me, you are souped up over the 1 thous incremental positioning of the Incra, agreed, but that is only one part of the entire system. What happens when your rails are out of alignment from TS movement, and now your cuts are not square? What good is the .001" incremental movements? Get my drift here? (excuse the pun)

Your absolutely right about the tolerances stacking and its only as good as the weakest one. And i really am not going for .001. I think its the repeat ability factor more and not having to plan my cuts as much thats sparks my interest. I was really impressed after watching the incra videos as to how easy it was to cut exact boards. One thing i do know, if one board is off, then my entire project is off :) so i try to make each piece as accurate as possible.

Def going to have to think this all over for a while...

[Will Blick]

> I see a lot of saws on mobiles bases so i figured it must not affect it to much. I was planning on building my own out out of some thick steel to make it very ridgid. But it will still flex.

If you put a 600 lb saw down on a semi flat surface, all 4 legs will touch the ground, but quite often, at the price of being slightly tweaked.... no big deal if you are not after Incra like precision.... the avg TS user is not chasing the level of precision you are after.... so that is the reason "it's allright".... make sense?

> Your absolutely right about the tolerances stacking and its only as good as the weakest one.

Well, tolerance stacking takes the worst of all the tolerances within a system and ADDS them... so if your system has 3 tolerances +/- .003", if all tolerances lean in the same direction, you will be out .009"..... the point of the "weakest link" I was making is... if you moving the saw throws your rails out, by cocking then a tad.... you will be at the mercy of this weakness, which negates the Incras high precision. Of course, you can re tweak each time after you set up, assure squareness, re set blade to fence distance to match scale, etc The avg. ww'er is not bothered being off measurements in thousands. How radical this will be with your set up, depends on so many factors, its hard to determine how good/bad it will be.

All I can say is, if I had to move my saw every time I used it, I would never EVER put an Incra on it...the Big Name fence and DRO would be more than good enough...

You did not mention about the type of router work you will do, which is where the incra really shines, but only in the areas I mentioned... and even there, the Dovetail jigs are so well built and versatile, I gave up using the Incra for this task....tried it a few times, worked great, but my gosh, the set up, thinking, setting, re-setting, testing, etc. Compare that to pushing a hand router with a bearing against a high precision template.... its a no-brainer...simple vs. Incra. This is why the Incra can really be a love/hate thing.

Also, based on the type of work you are mentioning, I think you are over estimating the level of precision required.... metal machinist talk in thous, whereas precision ww at best talk in hundredths. The one exception to this in ww, is edge joinery such as drawer boxes... where thous really matter, other wise the two parts won't fit together. This was Incra real claim to fame, precision router fences...but in the last 5-10 years, there has been an explosion of high quality template based jigs for edge joinery, making the Incra have less appeal in this regard....