Easy Wood Tools or Traditional Tools for beginner

[Kris Langohr]

I am just getting in to the wood turning thing and have a pretty basic question. I have started looking for a good set of tools to start with. Based on the advertising description it seems like the Easy Wood Tools Ci1-Ci4 would be a good place to start since they seem to make the use of the tools more straight-forward than the more traditional gouge/scraper/skem method. I have 2 big concerns with that:

1) Will they train me to work in bad ways that would make it harder to eventually switch to traditional tools?
2) Is the long term cost of the tools higher than a good sharpening system and a decent set of traditional tools due to the carbide tip replacement cost?

I have never sharpened a turning tool before and it makes me a little nervous that I would mess it up. Having a poorly sharpened tool is both more dangerous and more likely to produce poor quality work. If that results in the failure to produce anything decent when just starting out it is a huge disincentive to continue through the frustration.

I am hoping that some of the masters here will impart some sage-like wisdom and help me decide which way to go. I appreciate any feedback anyone has.

Thanks,
Kris

[Alan Trout]

Kris,

I think carbide tools have their place but with that being said there are things you can do with a conventional tool that cannot be done withe the carbide tooling. I would highly suggest learning to use a bowl and spindle gouge first and then if you want carbide tools then buy some. It will pay big dividends in the future for your overall turning enjoyment.

Sharpening with a good system is very easy so I would not be worried about it. You can buy cheap tools if you like PSI line of BB tools but If I were to do it again I personally just get a couple of Thompson gouges and go from there.

Good Luck

Alan

[Andrew Arndts]

My friend who works for a Woodcraft store. They will discourage new turners in purchasing the easy tool.
Fundamentals should be taught with the proper tools.

[Vince Welch]

Hi Kris,
You are asking good questions! From my perspective I believe one is much better served by starting with traditional turning tools such as gouges, (bowl and spindle), Parting tools, and Scrapers. In addition, I believe one really needs to know how to sharpen all tools with confidence. You can and will turn most all shapes with "the basic tools"! This is a journey for most and one does not usually start out grasping all the tricks right from the start but rather this is a process... a fun process. There are less expensive tools from Harbor Freight and Benjamin Best that you can get and practice your sharpening skills. Once having the basic tool skill down then one is better consider these newer specialty tools. I am in no way knocking any of these tools. I think they are great and I personally know many of the manufactures. But for the new person starting I believe it is important to start with the basics and move on from that point.
Vince

[Jon Prouty]

I have both traditional and EWT... I tend to grab the easy rougher for roughing out a blank and switch to traditional tools once round. I hesitate to recommend one over the other - however if you are looking at EWT, start with a rougher. Good luck! JP

[Kris Langohr]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I am seeing a general consensus forming around learn the fundamentals first with the traditional tools and then branch out into the others once you have that down. That makes a lot of sense. Looks like I will go start to investigate a good sharpening system and some starter tools.

Thanks,
Kris

[John Keeton]

Kris, I agree with the others on starting with the basic tools - in fact, I don't own any of the EW tools. I don't think the issue is "will they train me to work in bad ways" - it is more that they won't train you at all. They are scrapers, essentially all held the same way, with no finesse required of the user. That is the attraction, and that has merit for a production turner, or for the furniture builder that just needs to turn a set of legs every now and then. They are also very useful for those that just really do not want the hassle of dealing with other tools. They are functional, and will take off wood effectively, leaving a fairly nice surface.

I will go one step further - you will do yourself a favor if you will learn basic spindle turning first, then get into some bowl or vessel forms. The skills used in spindle turning are different than those in vessel turning, but what you are really after is forming a relationship with the wood - and, various species of wood. In spindle turning, the pressure against the wood is more delicate, and you develop a better "touch". While the techniques of vessel turning are different, that "touch" is transferable. I think over the long haul, you will become a better turner with this approach.

Get a good sharpening system first. That is critical. Then, buy some basic tools - I favor the HF set, plus a BB bowl gouge. That will give you everything you need for around $70. Learn with these tools. You will need to sharpen them more often than a good Thompson, D-Way, or Glaser, but that is OK because you must learn sharpening skills as well. As you say, a poorly sharpened tool nets poor results.

Ultimately, you will want to get some better tools, but you will always have the cheaper tools to regrind for other uses.

[Alan Zenreich]

It also depends on the material you are turning. For penturning, which often uses acrylics or stone composites, the carbide tools can produce stellar results in a fraction of the time that conventional tools require.

[Kris Langohr]

Thanks for the additional info John and Alan. My plan was to do strictly pens but based on what I have read that was the intention of lots of folks, doesn't seem to end up that way though :cool:

I will go the traditional tool route and if I ultimately end up just doing pens then I can always pick up one of the carbide tools later. Now off to search the forum for good sharpening system recomendations.

Thanks,
Kris

[Prashun Patel]

For sharpening, it's hard to beat a slow speed grinder with a Oneway Wolverine and Varigrind attachment.

The Woodcraft slowspeed grinder is an entrylevel one that is reasonable. It also comes with the right wheels (AO vs the grey ones, which means they run cooler and protect yr tools). You'll also need the "Wolverine Grinding Jig" and "Turners Fingernail grinding jig".

These items (IMHO) are more critical than yr tools. The above set will allow you to sharpen scrapers, a spindle roughing gouge, and (best of all) the bowl gouges. Bowl gouges have a tricky profile that - for beginners - can be daunting to sharpen. Take this potential source of frustration out of the equation by using this jig. In my research, it's at least as good as anything out there.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I also have the Easy Wood tools and conventional. I definitely would recommend you get the bowl gouges, etc and learn how to use and sharpen them. I agree with John to learn spindles and the basic turning techniques involved then move on the bowls and then to like Hollow Forms. Sharp tools are a must when turning wood. I have the wolverine system which works quite well with a slow speed grinder. I started with Benjamin Best tools as they were affordable and I could learn to sharpen on tools that were not so expensive. Once you have that down then start to acquire better tools. Basically learn the tools and learn about each wood.

[Jamie Donaldson]

And don't buy a "set" of tools, because you'll probably only use 2 or 3 out of the set of 5, and use the others for expensive paint can openers. Buy individual less expensive tools to learn to sharpen and turn, then replace with better quality as you progress and better understand what tools you will use the most. But most importantly, find an AAW chapter or a Woodcraft store class where you can take an instruction class on how to safely get started using and sharpening you tools.

[John Keeton]

I would agree with Jamie on a "set" except for the HF set. For $40, it is very hard to beat the price, and I still use nearly all of them at times.

[Reed Gray]

This type of carbide tipped tool is a scraper. One of the basic turning tools. I don't use them. Some thing about a cutting tip that you don't sharpen, you just throw away bothers me. Yes, I am cheap. Scrapers have their uses, and so do gouges. Some of the synthetic materials that people turn, more so pen turners than bowl turners, require scraping. Find the nearest club, and get involved. Best learning experience of my life has been the local clubs. Monthly demonstrations, workshops, and mentors. There is a big Woodcraft in Seattle, and they can put you in contact with the clubs and other turners in your area, or search the AAW site.

If you turn, you have to learn to sharpen. It is a basic skill. Yea, you may screw a few things up when you start, but you can grind away your mistakes as you learn.

robo hippy

[Kris Langohr]

Thanks again everyone. I have seen a lot of good feedback on the Wolverine system so that sounds like the way to go. I will take a look at the slow speed grinder at Woodcraft as well. Luckily there is a store in Seattle that is easy to get to so I can ask them for some additional advice on setup and some of the classes.

Jamie, you recommended starting out with 2-3 individual tools rather than a set. I want to start with pen and spindle work so what would be a good 2-3 tools to start out with?

Thanks,
Kris

[Jamie Donaldson]

I don't know what comes in a cheap tool set anymore, but for a basic pen turning start, tools I would want for sure would be a 1/2" spindle gouge and a parting tool. Next would be a tie between a 1" skew or a 1" square scraper, because you should have some instruction on how to use the skew to best advantage. Be aware that American tools with flutes are measured by the size of the steel diameter, but foreign made tools are often sized by the width of the flute. Check which dimension the dealer is using before you buy.

[John Keeton]

The Harbor Freight set is M2 HSS, and includes 1'' roughing gouges, 3/4'' spindle gouge , 1/8'' parting tool, 1/2'' & 1'' skew chisels, 1/2'' round nose scraper, 1/2" beveled scraper, 1/4'' spindle gouge - all for $42. Even if one doesn't like the skew (including me!) you can't buy the HSS stock and handles for that kind of $$$. Just regrind the skews for scrapers, or special purpose tools.

I still use the roughing gouge, the spindle gouge, the parting tool, and the two scrapers. Heck of a deal!

[Alex Pierce]

EWT chisels definitely have a place in the turners tool box. I have the full size rougher and use it for making bowl blanks round. However you should learn with steel tools because sooner or later you'll start a project where the EWTs won't quite work. Sharpening isn't all that hard so long as you have a good grinder w/ a platform system (wolverine or homemade). Also EWTs are kinda expensive, especially the carbide tips. However there are companies that make them that fit some of the EWTs at much cheaper prices. Go with the steel tools, if you like wood turning invest in some EWT.

[Rick Markham]

I agree with John and Reed, and everyone recommending starting with traditional gouges, etc. I own one EWT tool, (the smallest finisher) and I only use if for one specific purpose and that's to turn a spindle super super thin. It has it's place in my tool kit. But as John says, not only will it not teach you finesse, but there is many things you can't do with it even if you already have finesse. Traditional tools will teach you how the cutting edge works, and really allow you to feel the workpiece and truly be expressive in the end. It's more work to learn, and at times a little more frustrating but the skill gained is priceless.

There's two ways to take on this aspect of woodworking IMHO, you can get a good starter set (like John suggested) and see if this is something you want to be involved with or not. Or you can take my approach and just buy a few great tools (ones that will last you a very long time) and just be determined that you are going to love this aspect of woodworking, and your just determined to be good at it :) Determination can be a very good justification :D

[Bob Wolfe]

Kris,
I'll throw my 2 cents into this. If you are the type of person who would become frustrated and discouraged that you can't master the traditional tools quickly or if you want to turn a project without a bunch of scars that you have to sand with 60 grit paper, then I would suggest that you get one EZ type tool. I prefer the finisher because it is easier for me to cut various shapes with a round cutter than a square one. The EZ finisher cutter (I made my own bar and handle) helped me save many bowls and other projects that were otherwise destined for the burn pile. You can find many youtube videos about how great they are, so I won't go there. For me this tool helped me build confidence because it was simple to use and get a descent result. I'm still learning the traditional tools and I practice with them frequently, but if I'm working on a bowl and I'm not happy with the cut I get from the freshly ground gouge or scraper, out comes the finisher. The carbide cutters are disposable, but I learned that you can sharpen them by rubbing them upside down on a diamond stone (thank you Captain Eddie Castelin). I've read on forums that you can't get them as sharp as a brand new cutter this way, but without doing a side by side comparison I can't tell the difference. I don't know anyone who solely uses the EZ tools alone, my opinion is that they are more of a compliment to your tool arsenal.

As far as tool sets, I read many discussions about not buying a complete set of turning tools, but that is exactly what I did anyway. I started off with the Penn State's (Benjamin's Best) 8-piece set and I've been happy with it. When you start turning bowls I would suggest that you get at least 2 different bowl gouges and have them ground different, say one with a traditional grind and the other with swept back wings. Here's why, A bowl gouge will last most people at least a couple years unless you turn a lot, but mine lasted about 6 months. I struggled with the bowl gouge and kept changing the way I ground it because I discovered that there are several ways to grind a bowl gouge and I wanted to try them all out and find out which one I liked better. It wasn't until I took my gouge to the local turning club meeting that I found out that I was way off. They showed me how to grind it properly with a swept back wing. Unfortunately by that time the guy corrected my mistake the tool was almost at the end of it's life. Within just a few more sharpenings I had ground the tool down to the end and was useless. I bought 3 new ones since then (different sizes and they are lasting fine because I'm not experimenting with different grinds anymore).

I hope this gives you a couple more ideas to ponder.

[Kris Langohr]

Thanks for the info Jamie, Rick and Bob. That gives me some more things to think about. I may well go with a mixed approach and pick up one of the EWT tools. My wife and my 13 year old daughter have both expressed an interest in turning as well but I don't think they will be as stubborn about working through the failures as I will. The EWT might help them do some small projects and be a bit more successful.

Thanks Again,
Kris

[Hilel Salomon]

Pretty much everything useful has been said in the above posts. The only thing that I would add from my own experience (or lack thereof) is that you're always better off learning how to use basic tools. I am sorry that I jumped into bowl turning without ever learning how to use a skew properly. If my grand children were to want to learn turning, I would suggest (have you ever tried telling a kid?) that they learn how to use a skew, bowl gouge, shaper, parting tool and spindle gouge before going on to other tools. That would be the order of things I would suggest, but I know lots of great turners who would have a different order.
Having said that, I do own several of the EZ tools and I do prefer roughing out an out of round piece with their rougher. I also use their finisher quite a bit.
I think that you've already mastered the most important tool in turning: asking questions.
Hilel

[Prashun Patel]

Kris-
At this point, I may be beating a dead horse, but I have a slight experience to share:

I started with the PSI bowl gouges. They have been fine, and I've been able to produce decent work (for me) with them. However, I will say that my 1/2" gouge seems to hold a better edge than either my 5/8" or 3/8" both of which I purchased later than my 1/2". I have to sharpen them more frequently than my 1/2", and the cut consistency is not as good. Perhaps it's just me, but this has been frustrating.

I also recently purchased a Thompson bowl gouge, and the difference between it and even my decent 1/2" PSI is really night and day. Beginners like me tend to move on from straight spindles to open bowls pretty quickly. The three things that have plagued me are the tedium of hollowing, catches when turning the inside, and the finish cut quality that requires a lot of subsequent sandpapering. I will say that my 'good' bowl gouge has reduced all of those three things significantly.

Here's my point: if yr goal is to reduce beginner frustration, then you might do better to invest in a couple good, basic high quality tools instead of (or in addition to) a starter set.

Here's the other thing to know: As with planes, high quality lathe tools have an incredibly high resale value. So if you find that you don't like or use it, you can probably sell it on a forum like this for near yr purchase price.

[Kris Langohr]

Thanks for the info Prashun. I have been looking around at the tools that are available from Woodcraft, Rockler and Lee Valley and have been trying to figure out which way to go. All three have decent prices on both individual tools and sets. Going the individual tool route has been suggested by a couple of people and that may be the direction I go.

[Kris Langohr]

Been there and done that with trying to tell a kid something :)

Thanks for the feedback Hilel.

[JerHall]

Here is a very good video on sharpening to get you started: http:// www .woodworkingonline.com/2008/09/23/podcast-37-turning-tools-sharpen-your-skills-with-sharp-tools/ I do agree with others that the Woodcraft 8" slow speed grinder with its good wheels are a better choice than the 6" wheel discussed in the video.

Watch this and then find someone at a local club to work with you to get some hands-on experiences

Email me for links to a lot more free sharpening videos that I think would be of help.

You just can't go wrong with the Benjamin Best tool set at Penn State item number LXWM1007

[Reed Gray]

Jerry,

I checked out that video, and, err, well, I do a lot of things differently. I guess as long as your tools end up sharp, that is what counts most. I found it strange that he commented that since he was right handed that he did most of his sharpening on the left side of the grinder. I do most of mine on the right side, but use both sides because I use different grits for different tools and cuts.

When dressing the wheel, if you free hand it, you don't remove any of the run out. Any matrix wheel will develop run out/go oval. Figure a few thousandths run out in the shaft, a few in the bushing, and wheel, and maybe millions of revolutions of the wheel, and the outside rim of the wheel is at the end of a 4 inch lever (half the diameter of the wheel), the wheel is not perfectly balanced = you will get run out. If you have a platform, and ease the dresser into the wheel, you can tame the run out a bit, and not have to go back to the truing set up.

I do love my continental spindle gouges.

robo hippy

[Allan Ferguson]

If you visit the Republic, WA. area drop in for for some turning time and conversation.. PM me.

[JerHall]

Reed,

Good points. I did not pick up on them, and would have had the same reaction. I still feel the video overall is of great value as an introduction, not to replace hands-on with an experienced turner.

I find when it comes to sharpening there are at least 2 opinions on everything, and often 7 and a half. We have to start somewhere and find our way. To that point, here is another sharpening video I like a lot with some alternative points of view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ljhd_WbAOw&feature=player_embedded#!

BTW, thanks for your solid video on the McNaughton - it did the job for me!

Jerry

[Reed Gray]

The AAW put out a free DVD a few years back to members that was pretty good. I guess there is way more info on turning than there is on sharpening. From the Work Sharp people, "A dull chisel is just a screw driver". Pretty well sums it up.

robo hippy

[Scott Hackler]

Unless I missed it... there is something to be said about using a jig to sharpen, so that you can repeat the grind over and over. In fact, if you happen to buy a high quality new gouge they will likely have the correct grind on them already and you can set up a wolverine jig to match the angles and from that point on... every trip to the grinder will be the same result.

[Rick Markham]

I agree with using an easy finisher to save a workpiece, my only issue for me with it is it is much easier for me to leave toolmarks on the workpiece with it than a traditional gouge used properly. In the beginning when things are really "rough" and you have lots of tool marks it would be nice to use to clean up and have a nice piece in the end. As long as your focus is learning the traditional tools and then eventually not needing to clean anything up with it, I think it's a very practical idea. If you rely heavily on the EWT tool, then your not ever going to get that beautiful finish cut with a gouge. :) So as long as you use it in the right way, it shouldn't hinder your learning.

The issue of grinding, regrinding different profiles in the beginning is a valid one, shape has everything to do with how and what a gouge can do. Having a couple of your main gouges is never a bad idea. IMHO, if you know your in this for a lifetime, then investing in high quality tools isn't a bad idea, you're going to end up buying them anyway.

[tony tomlinson]

I started off with the EWTools and was doing pretty well, but when it came time to take some classes in some "advanced turning" to pick up some new techniques in traditional turning, I was at a loss and basically not qualified to take the class.I would definately buy some lower priced traditional turning tools ( gouges, scrapers, etc - I think John Keeton's suggestion of Harbor Freight tools is excellent advice-I have a skew also, it's great for holding up the window in the shop.
Best of luck with your work

[Andrew Arndts]

I would agree with Jamie on a "set" except for the HF set. For $40, it is very hard to beat the price, and I still use nearly all of them at times.
I am not making fun of this, Seriously How long ago did you purchase that set? Less than a year ago, I might just pick one up.

[glenn bradley]

I would endorse the actual turner's opinions here. As a non-turner, I was able to turn a few items (the only few I have ever done) to a very satisfactory result with the carbide tools. If you want to be a turner, it may be true that using new methods as a starting point may not serve you best. If you're just a hack who wants to turn a couple things that look like he knew what he was doing . . . well, they worked for me ;-)

[Reed Gray]

Well, the local Woodcraft loaned a rougher and finisher to take for a test drive. I think the appeal is that they are small scrapers, at least compared to my 1 3/8 inch wide ones, and are fairly easy to control. I didn't get any better cuts with them than I did with my standard scrapers.

robo hippy