Wood movement and drawers :(

[Bob Jones]

I am working on my first carcass piece - a chest of drawers. I am now starting on the drawers. On labor day I did a lot of planning and my results were aggravating. I decided to take one drawer at a time. The Front is cherry (1 in thick). I just jointed it straight and square and fit it to the hole. No problem.

The sides and back are soft maple (3/4in thick). I jointed those 3 pieces and planned them down to 1/2in thick (my arms were tired). I know I planned them dead flat and parallel. A couple of hours after planning to thickness I was going to fit those 3 pieces and all 3 warped in just a couple of hours!
The maple was kiln dried, bought from a reputable supplier, rough cut months ago, stored in my shop on stickers on top of a table on edge. I did everything right, so I thought. What gives?

One possible problem - I removed most of the waste from one side of the board. To remove form both sides I would have to joint one side flat, flip, remove some material, join flat, flip and repeat over and over. That just seems stupid.

BIG QUESTION - These drawers are BIG (8 to 12in deep, 30+in across). Would it hurt anything to leave the sides and back 3/4in thick? I have read 4 or 5 old books recently that cover drawer making (Bernard Jones, Charles Hayward, Wearing, J&CM). Most recommend 3/8in thick stock for drawer sides/back. I guess that just keeps it light? Hayward said that anything thicker would be to gangly (or something to that effect). I don't mind heavy furniture. I figure it would be better to be heavy and stable than light and moving. What to do? I have no supply of 1/2 thick material.

[Paul Murphy]

Short story is you'll have better luck removing equal amounts from both faces. Even better is to take some off both sides, wait a couple days to let the wood find it's new shape, then finish the job.

Wood is a funny equilibrium of drying and other stresses, and it seems the surface layer often has extra stress. I have resigned myself to wood movement whenever significantly ripping or planing a board, and accomodating this behaviour in the beginning makes for less work in the long-run.

[rob cosman]

Bob, thin is nice, it makes for a lighter and easier to move drawer, it looks better and with dovetailed corners front and back it will be plenty strong. To get the "stable" 1/2" out of the board, in it's rough state, use a pencil to identify the center 1/2 inch. Get the board to sit flat, usually easiest to start with the cupped side, then take what will be your reference face down to the first pencil line. Once this face is true, do your edges, ends and finally take it to finished thickness on the second face. No flipping, your done. Good news, the process gets easier with each board, bad news, no promises! It may still move, the center 1/2" may not be stable. If it does move then dont use it, chances are it will continue to move. Always have a few extra pcs so you can use the best of the bunch.

Nothing worse than a drawer that weighs 60 pounds before you fill it!! Go thin, Alan Peters would be proud!!
cheers
Rob Cosman






I am working on my first carcass piece - a chest of drawers. I am now starting on the drawers. On labor day I did a lot of planning and my results were aggravating. I decided to take one drawer at a time. The Front is cherry (1 in thick). I just jointed it straight and square and fit it to the hole. No problem.

The sides and back are soft maple (3/4in thick). I jointed those 3 pieces and planned them down to 1/2in thick (my arms were tired). I know I planned them dead flat and parallel. A couple of hours after planning to thickness I was going to fit those 3 pieces and all 3 warped in just a couple of hours!
The maple was kiln dried, bought from a reputable supplier, rough cut months ago, stored in my shop on stickers on top of a table on edge. I did everything right, so I thought. What gives?

One possible problem - I removed most of the waste from one side of the board. To remove form both sides I would have to joint one side flat, flip, remove some material, join flat, flip and repeat over and over. That just seems stupid.

BIG QUESTION - These drawers are BIG (8 to 12in deep, 30+in across). Would it hurt anything to leave the sides and back 3/4in thick? I have read 4 or 5 old books recently that cover drawer making (Bernard Jones, Charles Hayward, Wearing, J&CM). Most recommend 3/8in thick stock for drawer sides/back. I guess that just keeps it light? Hayward said that anything thicker would be to gangly (or something to that effect). I don't mind heavy furniture. I figure it would be better to be heavy and stable than light and moving. What to do? I have no supply of 1/2 thick material.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Even better is to take some off both sides, wait a couple days to let the wood find it's new shape, then finish the job.

This is what I always do. I'm a mostly-electrons guy, but still - rip oversize, joint one face, take a little off the other side with the planer, stand them on edge with space in between them for equal air movement,and come back day-after-tomorrow for final sizing. Let the stresses in those long fibers release to their new "happy place".

At this particular moment, there are about a dozen pieces of QSWO of various dimensions standing on edge on the TS outfeed table - their time is up, and dust and shavings are coming shortly. The stuff moves - not every piece, but enough pieces move, even just a little bit, that it is simply part of the repertoire.

[Jim Koepke]

I have made a few drawers with 3/4 stock without problems. Yes, they are heavy. It is not something I would do for fine furniture. For tool cabinets and such, the extra strength is welcome.

I have also bought wood that moves quite a bit after it sits around a bit. Of course, that is of my own making since quite often my wood is chosen from #3 construction grade pine. More than one time, after sawing a plank it would curve or cup before it could be taken to the bench to plane off the saw marks. Though my skill at picking out the good cheap wood is getting better. Recently bought about 100 bf and haven't had any unmanageable movement.

jtk

[Jim Neeley]

Stress in wood is a strange beast. Last winter I was ripping a 3' piece of 4/4 clear straight-grained hard maple on my 5hp Uni and I noticed the motor starting to bog down, something that doesn't even happen on 12/4 maple. Additionally I could feel a lot of back-pressure as the wood was trying to accelerate backwards (kick-back). Fortunately my kill switch is at hip level, so I put it to good use.

Once the fence was moved I could see that at the beginning of my ~1' of rip they kerf had expanded to nearly 1/2". Who'd have thought? It also reinforced why I carefully stand to the side when ripping board stock. :)

[David Keller NC]

The maple was kiln dried, bought from a reputable supplier, rough cut months ago, stored in my shop on stickers on top of a table on edge. I did everything right, so I thought. What gives?

One possible problem - I removed most of the waste from one side of the board. To remove form both sides I would have to joint one side flat, flip, remove some material, join flat, flip and repeat over and over. That just seems stupid.

You don't say whether your shop is air conditioned or otherwise humidity controlled. The stability of the wood isn't so much a factor of how long it stands in the corner, but how long it stands in the corner at a stable temperature and humidity. If your shop is un-conditioned, and you surfaced it on a dry day but came back to it on a rainy day, I can pretty much guarantee that it will have moved, at least some.

Moreover, you've made just about the worst choice you could've for the drawer sides and back as far as unstable North American hardwoods. Yes, there are less stable species, but maple (of any type) is definitely not known for sitting still. There is good reason why it isn't commonly used as drawer liners (sides and backs). It's both hard to work, and it's unstable.

This is one reason why you most often see eastern white pine or poplar as the secondary wood on a chest of drawers. Not only is it lightweight, easy to work and is relatively cheap, they are also very stable, particularly when quartersawn.

And no, removing material from both sides of a rough cut board isn't stupid - it's required, especially when the wood's been kiln-dried and is flatsawn. Having said that, it doesn't mean that you have to take a completely equal amount of wood from both sides, you just want to get down below the excessively cooked outer surface - perhaps 1/8" below is more than enough. And if the wood has been carefully dried, 1/32nd is more than enough.

[Scott T Smith]

You don't say whether your shop is air conditioned or otherwise humidity controlled. The stability of the wood isn't so much a factor of how long it stands in the corner, but how long it stands in the corner at a stable temperature and humidity. If your shop is un-conditioned, and you surfaced it on a dry day but came back to it on a rainy day, I can pretty much guarantee that it will have moved, at least some.

Moreover, you've made just about the worst choice you could've for the drawer sides and back as far as unstable North American hardwoods. Yes, there are less stable species, but maple (of any type) is definitely not known for sitting still. There is good reason why it isn't commonly used as drawer liners (sides and backs). It's both hard to work, and it's unstable.

This is one reason why you most often see eastern white pine or poplar as the secondary wood on a chest of drawers. Not only is it lightweight, easy to work and is relatively cheap, they are also very stable, particularly when quartersawn.

And no, removing material from both sides of a rough cut board isn't stupid - it's required, especially when the wood's been kiln-dried and is flatsawn. Having said that, it doesn't mean that you have to take a completely equal amount of wood from both sides, you just want to get down below the excessively cooked outer surface - perhaps 1/8" below is more than enough. And if the wood has been carefully dried, 1/32nd is more than enough.

David Keller's advice is spot on, as usual.

Drawer sides and back are best made from quartersawn material, irrespective of the species. Not only for the issues that you're encountering now, but also in case the piece is ever exposed to significant changes in RH%.

You mention in your original post that you were jointing each side... I don't understand why.... Typically you would face joint one side flat, and then use a planer to removed an equal amount from the other side, and then keep flipping the board with each additional pass through your planer so as to remove an equal amount from both sides. It's the same work that you're currently doing.

[Bob Jones]

Thanks for all the tips!
Rob, I tried your trick with the next board just now. It was not as difficult as I thought it would be. I am going to see how much it moves tomorrow.

Also, I can answer a couple of questions.
My shop is climate controlled (Yes, I am very thankful)
The remnants of a hurricane were blowing through on the day I was working. Windy all day. Hmmm

The boards are not great quality. Knot free, but they are no more than 7in wide and the grain is not really straight. I am pretty sick of the material really. I suppose there was a reason I got a great deal on clearance. They were cheaper than construction grade 2x4's. Because of the frustrations, I am considering buying new lumber.

The original author to Jointer & Cabinet Maker suggests Ash as the preferred species. That is not easily worked with hand tools. I see Poplar and White pine suggested. Any other great choices? How about oak? I could get that easily.

[Paul Murphy]

Because of the frustrations, I am considering buying new lumber.

The original author to Jointer & Cabinet Maker suggests Ash as the preferred species. That is not easily worked with hand tools. I see Poplar and White pine suggested. Any other great choices? How about oak? I could get that easily.

Ash is more easily worked with hand tools than oak in my opinion, but is still fairly hard/heavy. Poplar is is a great choice, followed by mahogany, butternut, walnut, sasafrass, quarter sawn soft maple, and cherry.

Sometimes I reject a sapwood cherry or walnut board for the visible exterior of a project, and those boards then become drawer sides and such. If I were buying stock for drawer sides, poplar would be my first choiceas it's priced well here in the midwest.

[David Keller NC]

The boards are not great quality. Knot free, but they are no more than 7in wide and the grain is not really straight. I am pretty sick of the material really. I suppose there was a reason I got a great deal on clearance. They were cheaper than construction grade 2x4's. Because of the frustrations, I am considering buying new lumber.

The original author to Jointer & Cabinet Maker suggests Ash as the preferred species. That is not easily worked with hand tools. I see Poplar and White pine suggested. Any other great choices? How about oak? I could get that easily.

Actually, what thomas uses almost exclusively in the Jointer And Cabinet Maker is "Deal", which is a term that includes both sizing and species. Specifically, it's largely Scotch or Red pine in specific dimensions. This is soft wood that is pretty easy to work with hand tools. American Ash is listed for things like drawer stops and the like - Joel M. & Chris Schwarz comment in the book that this reference doesn't make sense - American Ash would be enormously expensive when imported to the UK by sail.

Presuming that you're constructing the drawers by hand (ie, hand-cut dovetails), you really want to use a soft wood for this purpose. This is important - you want your drawer front to be made of a relatively hard, dense wood, and the drawer sides to be of a soft, easily compressible wood. What that allows is for the half-blind pins on the front of the drawer to compress the tails cut into the softer wood of the sides, and makes for exceptionally tight joints. The only downside to this is a modern objection - that softer wood doesn't hold the screws for metal drawer slides very well. But in my opinion (and others), metal drawer slides do not belong in fine furniture. They belong in kitchen cabinets, where I would use plywood for the drawer sides.

In Mississippi, you should be able to get poplar in fairly large sizes easily and cheaply. Some don't care for the smell of freshly cut poplar (especially in a chest of drawers designed to hold clothing), and I'll have to admit that I greatly prefer and seek out Eastern White Pine for this very reason. It is probably the most stable of all North American species, there is no wood that I've ever encountered that works more easily and predictably with hand tools, and at least here in the East (NC), it's fairly readily available and pretty inexpensive.

One tip - buying "quartersawn" boards from a mill or lumber supplier as rule isn't all that easy, because few (other than Scott Smith on this thread) will actually quarter-saw a log because the yield is much lower than sawing for grade. But you can still pretty easily get quarter-sawn or at least rift-sawn wood - all you need to do is buy relatively wide boards, and rip the outer 4 or 5 inches of the edges off for drawer stock. On typical flat-sawn boards from a relatively large tree, the outer 2/3rds of the board is rift/quarter sawn, and the center of the board is flat-sawn.

As for other species that meet the criteria of relatively abundant, relatively cheap and easy to work, I'd say that my preferences would be:

Eastern White Pine
Tulip Poplar
Basswood
Aspen
Sugar Pine
Cedrela (Spanish Cedar - sometimes called Cigar-box Cedar, this species is available in large sizes, knot-free, relatively cheap, and works wonderfully with hand tools)

Second Choices would be:

Butternut (because of it's expense, this is a second choice, but it works really well with hand tools)
Cypress
Eastern (Red) Cedar - but it needs to be largely knot free, which isn't easy to come by
Alaskan Yellow Cedar (expensive, but really nice stuff)
South American Mahogany (really expensive stock to make drawer sides, backs and bottoms with)
Douglas Fir
Beech (it's a bit too hard, but largely knot-free and inexpensive)

Very Distant 3rd Choices:

Oak of any kind (it's just too dang hard with too much variation in hardness between spring and summer growth).
Ash
Southern Yellow Pine (waayyy too hard, with drastic differences between the spring and summer wood)
Walnut, Cherry, Maple & Birch - again, waaayyy too hard for drawer sides.

[bill tindall]

It is typically much easier to repair a worn drawer side than what the drawer slides upon in the cabinet. Hence, a wood softer than the cabinet runners and blades is a more practical design for the drawer sides. For American Period furniture sides of 1/2" poplar or pine have proven to be a good choice. For the English style, something thinner is typical, but, such drawers employ slips to increase the bearing surface.

A visit to antique stores provides a good overview of what works, and doesn't, as well as what look good.

Personally I don't fret a somewhat cupped drawer side. I mash it flat while marking the dovetails and it will be held flat once installed.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...As for other species that meet the criteria of relatively abundant, relatively cheap and easy to work, I'd say that my preferences would be:

Eastern White Pine
Tulip Poplar
Basswood
Aspen
Sugar Pine
Cedrela (Spanish Cedar - sometimes called Cigar-box Cedar, this species is available in large sizes, knot-free, relatively cheap, and works wonderfully with hand tools)...

Sounds like great advice to me. Have you ever worked with paulownia?

Pam

[Peter Froh]

Once you planed the sides and back dead flat, how did you store the finished pieces? Were they stickered? I know in the past I've learned the hard way not to store flattened stock by laying it on my bench or storage area without having air movement on both sides of the board (ie. stickered).

[Hans Braul]

Lots of other great advice, especially from David Keller. I'd just double stress the importance of quarter sawn wood for the drawer sides. I made the mistake of using flat sawn cherry for my first piece with drawers, and I've had to trim so much off them during the summer that they are quite sloppy in winter. More recently I've used quarter sawn poplar and it's great. I bought some wide 8/4 and 12/4 flat sawn poplar boards and ripped them to get quarter sawn. I then glued up a stock of 1/4 sawn material, to use whenever I have a drawer to make. I've had the same issues with cupping, and agree with all that's been said above about planing both sides, waiting a couple of days, and then go to final dimensions.

Regards
Hans

[David Keller NC]

Sounds like great advice to me. Have you ever worked with paulownia?

Pam

I've done a bit of carving with Pawlonia, but have never made drawers out of it. Where I am, it's not the cheapest wood, though it isn't harshly expensive. I understand from reading that it's the preferred wood for surf boards because of its extreme low density, and I would think that would be advantageous in making an extreme light weight carcasse.

When I was carving it, I found it a bit stringy, and it was hard to avoid some tear-out, even with very, very sharp carving tools. But I'm thinking that wouldn't matter very much for drawer applications, where a bit of tear out on the linings would be no big deal.

Does it sand/scrape well?

[Bob Jones]

Well,it is almost settled. Thanks for all the tips. It looks like I am going to buy 12/4 flat sawn poplar (EWP not available), rip it down in strips, and glue up quarter sawn panels for 3 or 4 pieces. I really don't like laminating, but unless I want QS white oak, it is my only choice. We will see how it goes.... Thanks!

[Bob Jones]

For anyone tracking, I bought some 12/4 poplar and 8/4 cypress today to experiment with. I flattened one side and ripped them both to pieces with my bandsaw. I have never planned wood that soft. Man that was EASY!

I am going to let the strips acclimate for a few days, glue up some panels, and see what is more stable. i like the look of the QS cypress better, but the thicker Poplar would require fewer pieces. I guess I shouldn't fuss too much about looks since it is on the INSIDE. May the most stable wood win!