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Dan Friedrichs
09-05-2011, 4:33 PM
Several local builders were doing a "Tour of Homes" (new but unsold models), so I went and checked several out. I simply cannot believe the level of shoddy work that I saw. I looked at houses from several different builders, with prices from $200k to $1M. Every single one I saw looked like it was constructed with the same disregard for any sense of quality. For instance:

-One (a $1M home on a small lot) had a curved staircase. It looked like wood steps with a carpet runner down the middle. Upon closer look, they hadn't put the runner over a wood staircase - they had a particleboard staircase that they carpeted the middle of, then cut wood tread and riser "caps" into small pieces to put to the left and right of the carpet. By my rough guess, this saved them about 10 tread caps. Why?!

-Another had a curved staircase and a curved handrail. But instead of properly building the curved handrail, they took stock straight handrail and compound mitered it together in 1" increments, then brad nailed and puttied it all together. This wasn't a simple curve, either - so each little piece was different. It went 1" up, 1" 45* to the left, then 1" 45* to the back, etc, etc. Most ridiculous looking thing ever...

-I don't even know why, but I touched a baluster on a staircase, and it literally just fell right out. They had stapled up into it from the bottom, with less than 1/8" of penetration into the baluster. In a $400k house. I cringe to think of that house ever having small children in it.

- Other houses had just rectangular (no profile) baseboard moulding, and the alignment was just terrible. Joints had visible 1/8" gaps, etc.

- Every single cabinet or drawer box was plastic (not prefinished ply or anything - just some sort of melamine or plastic coated MDF), with cheap, cheap drawer runners. Why would anyone put granite or marble countertops on plastic cabinets with plastic boxes with the $0.38/pair set of drawer runners?

- The builders all seem to be doing the same stupid things, like putting bars and half-kitchens in the basement. Why do I need a full-size dishwasher in my basement, less then 20 feet from my actual dishwasher? Ridiculous...


To put a positive spin on this, I'm very glad to have learned so much from the experts here at SMC about quality craftsmanship (in woodwork or homebuilding) so that I can recognize this sort of shoddy work. It scares me to think that some people have a million bucks to drop on a house, but don't see these details!

Matt Meiser
09-05-2011, 4:39 PM
On the last, if you entertained a lot and kept a set of glasses/dishes down there I could see it being handy. We don't so it would never see any use in our house.

Al Wasser
09-05-2011, 5:13 PM
And for this poor construction you get a one yr warranty here in Colorado. Heck you get a better warranty on some used cars.

Larry Edgerton
09-05-2011, 7:20 PM
Tract homes are tract homes, no matter the neighborhood. My wife was working downstate many years ago before I started my own company and I went to work for a builder in Rochester Hills so I could be in the same county as my wife. Long story short, I worked an hour and quit as I wanted no part of such work. Refused a check so I would not be associated with such trash. I looked at all of the other builders in the area and they were all the same, so I moved back up to the farm in Bliss and started my own company. Here I do it my way, or they can hire someone else.

The ironic thing is these guys outsell me all the time. I put my money in the shop, and they put theirs in a fancy office. Fancy office trumps nice tools almost every time.

Oh well, you know better, so start a trend.....

I would suggest that you pick up a copy of Sarah Susanka's, "The not so big house" and that will give you an insight into how I feel a home should be done. Her basic philosophy is that instead of building a huge impersonal house to impress your neighbors, scale it back and get the fine, personal details that can make a house your own. You know that raised panel window seat, a true custom entry door, etc. etc.

Those tract houses remind me of Mr. Potato Head. Take a box or two and see how many cliched accessorys you can stick on it. Lets see, we need a box bay with a copper roof, an entrance door with two sidelights, a ..............


Later, Larry

Belinda Barfield
09-05-2011, 7:36 PM
Dan, in my experience the "average" homeowner in this area has no idea what quality really means. I can't tell you the number of times I've met with a lady to choose the material for her kitchen countertops and she just wants something she saw in a magazine. No clue if the material is functional or not. Same thing with the basement bar - although we don't have basements here - dishwasher in a room not 10 feet away from the bar area. Really, you can't walk 10 feet with a few dirty glasses?

Larry Frank
09-05-2011, 8:56 PM
It is really terrible the way some are building the homes today. We have been in the same house for better than 30 years. In the last several years we have had some extensive remodeling and additions done. We used one builder who does remodeling for everythings. We went and looked at his work and the comments that from his customers. The work that he has done is incredible with quality cabinets, plumbing and electrical all properly installed. We did not get quotes from anyone else and are very happy with the workmanship. I watched every day with how the work was progressing and if there was a problem or issue it was taken care of immediately.

Yes, there are still a few out there who believe in doing it properly. I would not have any work done or a house built without seeing what they have done before and talking with their customers.

Dave Lehnert
09-05-2011, 9:23 PM
Just a case of builders giving what the customers want at the lowest price possible. Just watch the house hunter shows. All customers are interested in is Garnet counter tops. They never ask if the cabinets are solid hardwood or that the drawers are dovetailed so why should a builder spend the extra $$$ on them.

anthony wall
09-05-2011, 9:41 PM
yes sorry to say but building houses the world over seems to attract the "tradesmen" who cannot or dont want to turn out acceptable quality work .i am in thailand and the quality of building over here can be described in general as somewhere between appaling and disgraceful,now there are some good builders but the vast majority conform to the above.we had our house started by a company that promised good quality but did not come anywhere close so they were replaced on one visit i saw a young lady of around 16 building one of the back walls on her own and it had an outward bulge of 5 inches in the middle when i pointed this out she said that she only just started working and no-one had shown her what to do??? but i will stop now as that house alone would warrant a book by itself and yes most of the replies on the creek are extremely useful

Ben Hatcher
09-06-2011, 9:51 AM
dishwasher in a room not 10 feet away from the bar area. Really, you can't walk 10 feet with a few dirty glasses?

To assume the second dishwasher 10 feet away is just out of laziness is ignoring several great reasons to have a second dishwasher. First, if you host larger parties, you always have more dishes than dishwasher space. The second dishwasher helps keep dirty dishes off of the counters and sink. Then there's the benefit of washing glassware by itself. So, if you've already decided that you would prefer to have two, why not put the second one in the most convenient location?

Belinda Barfield
09-06-2011, 10:10 AM
To assume the second dishwasher 10 feet away is just out of laziness is ignoring several great reasons to have a second dishwasher. First, if you host larger parties, you always have more dishes than dishwasher space. The second dishwasher helps keep dirty dishes off of the counters and sink. Then there's the benefit of washing glassware by itself. So, if you've already decided that you would prefer to have two, why not put the second one in the most convenient location?

Ben, I wasn't assuming laziness. In the instance I mentioned I know the homeowner. She has no children, she doesn't entertain. At the time having multiple dishwashers was the trendy thing to do, so she did it. I don't think she has ever used the bar dishwasher. I'm all in favor of dishwashers and ice makers in a bar area.

Dan Friedrichs
09-06-2011, 10:27 AM
I guess my complaint about the basement dishwasher wasn't that it's "lazy", but that:
1) It's sad that people would rather spend money on that than on, say, a staircase that doesn't squeak, a baluster that can't be easily shaken 1" back-and-forth, or trimwork that is decently fitted.
and
2) If you're going to do it, do it right and put in a single-drawer glass washer. Using a regular dishwasher from the big box store just looks cheap.

Neal Clayton
09-06-2011, 10:29 AM
solutions...

buy a 100+ year old house or build it yourself.

Chen-Tin Tsai
09-06-2011, 11:27 AM
Unfortunately, the sad thing is that most people do not have any concept of quality throughout nearly every field. Most people do not understand things like quality, longevity, "fix-ability", or best value. They only see: "ooh, that looks pretty", or "I saw it on TV".

Rick Potter
09-06-2011, 12:14 PM
While I certrainly agree that quality had taken a nose dive, quality has been going down since WWII. Houses were put up as fast as they could build them, to fill the pent up demand of consumers who had to wait through the war. Ideas of modular construction took off, as well as using new materials, such as plywood. Sometimes to excess.

An extreme example, that I have worked on, was a tract near me called Kaiser homes (yes, that Kaiser). These were built in a mass production style, using plywood anywhere they possibly could. Flat roof, with 2"Celutex insulation glued to a 1/2" plywood backer, and plywood walls wherever there was a window or door. That means the painted 3/4" ply was the inside AND outiside wall surface, from the floor to the roof, all in multiples of 4' width. Windows were inserted, and stick construction connected between the windows or doors.

In the mid fifties, Levittown, and others like it were born. In SoCal, where I live, tracts of homes were built, and individual home building became less prevelant. One tract near me has 18,000 homes and shopping malls, all built with a master plan. As land became less available (built out), most individuals could not even buy lots individually, the land was sold in tracts to developers. Basically, only 'fill in' lots are available in the greater Los Angeles area.

My house was built in 1979. It had 1 1/4" ply floor in the kitchen, on 4 FOOT joist spacing. It has 3/4" particle board (not OSB, not plywood) flooring in the second floor. You can track the location of anyone upstairs by the squeaks. It had a tile roof, installed on marginal rafters, which sagged. Etc, etc.

Anyway, my point is that construction quality has been going downhill for a while.


Final thought: Don't forget that all those high quality older houses we can still find were mostly just that....high quality when new. Many of the older lower quality houses simply aren't there anymore.

Rick Potter

Jim Rimmer
09-06-2011, 1:47 PM
I had a custom house built a few years ago and fortunately had a great general contractor. He laid out the foundation would be built and told me if I didn't want to do it that way, I could find another builder. His belief was that if you didn't start with a good foundation, the rest of the house didn't really matter. Obviously, the rest of the house was well done, too. He would only have two houses under construction at a time. He told me the guys that have multiple houses going at once can only spend a few minutes a day at each site. If you have 4 houses, figure in drive time from site to site, he said, you can only spend an hour a day at each site. If you aren't there to see what's going on, it won't be done right. He also used the same subs all the time rather than the lowest bidder. His waiting list was two years long ( I lucked in early due to a cancellation).

As Larry said, quality houses can be built. Do you want quality or "pretty" and quick?

Ben Hatcher
09-06-2011, 2:24 PM
solutions...

buy a 100+ year old house or build it yourself.

Old <> quality. There are plenty of crummy old houses, too. Most new homes, no matter how Mickey Mouse they may seem are put together better than many of the 100+ yo homes I've been in.

My main pet peeve on newer homes in my area is the way they install vinyl siding especially on the fronts. Why you would join two pieces on the front of the house when you could span that section with a full piece is beyond me. It looks so bad to my eye that I would walk away without even going inside to see the cheap cabinets.

Prashun Patel
09-06-2011, 2:42 PM
Don't blame the builders. Blame our Walmart-desiring consumptive public. Competition and increased costs forces businesses to do things that are against their better judgment; doing otherwise can mean you're priced out of the market.

I mean, kudos to the people who are able to take a stand on quality and have a thriving business for it; but you can't blame the rest for pandering.

Jason Roehl
09-06-2011, 6:51 PM
I've shopped a slogan for all these builders, but none of them have taken me up on it yet.

"Building the slums of tomorrow today!"

I wonder why.

One thing I'm often up against is that when there's a downturn in the economy, suddenly anyone can paint and do it for a lot less than I can. I've landed jobs before where I knew that there was a much lower bid turned in, but I sold my quality and customer service over their cheap price.

I also agree on the comment about houses 100+ years old--I've been in lots of them, and I'm mostly not impressed. Yes, the woodwork is often a cut above, but it's old, beat up, often painted over (badly), plaster is cracked everywhere, floors sagging, no insulation, drafty, lead paint (let's not go there), no or very small closets, multiple bad DIY remodel jobs throughout, questionable wiring, damp basements, etc. Around here, the sweet spot seems to be 25-40 years old, which means decent quality construction (surfaces are pretty close to plumb, level or square), copper wiring that is grounded, more modern/useful layouts and pretty good carpentry.

Mike Henderson
09-06-2011, 7:43 PM
Although I'm not in the market, I occasionally go to open houses, both new tract houses and older, remodeled houses. The record is mixed. The tract houses in this area are actually built pretty good. I don't know why but you don't often see really shoddy workmanship. Not to say never - I've been in a few that had sloppy finish carpentry, such as crown molding that has big gaps in the corners.

But it's in the older, remodeled houses that you really see things. Sometimes you see a house that was very well done, both in design and in execution. Too often I see an extremely poor design in the remodel. Just not thought out well, or it was something that the occupants just wanted to do but no one else would ever want. And the execution is spotty. Sometime I see things that I just wonder how the owners allowed that level of quality in the work.

In this area it's not all that difficult to find a good contractor who does good work. I had one guy who did some work for me tell me, "It's really easy. First, show up on time. Second, do good quality work. And third, and maybe most important, work clean and clean up when you leave. You can do everything perfect but if you leave a mess, that's what the client will remember."

Mike

Neal Clayton
09-06-2011, 9:24 PM
as for old vs new...

material quality matters. there's no way to argue otherwise, really.

a run down, failing plaster over failing brick, abandoned building in an abandoned downtown area will outlive new comparable buildings being built today, structurally.

plywood, particle board, and osb simply isn't going to last as long as tongue and groove solid wood decking, for instance. it's not possible. eventually the glue in the plywood will fail. the tongue and groove decking won't fail, unless there's some sort of outside influence such as water.

dryvit is not stucco, it's going to fail. and when it does it traps water, unlike stucco. the modern fad of sealing buildings from the elements for heating/cooling cost in general is failed notion in general. all building products fail, so designing structures that trap water rather than structures that breathe is always a recipe for failure.

vinyl is not a suitable building product, period. it moves more than wood does. it's not suitable for doors, it's not suitable for windows, it's not suitable for siding, and it's not suitable for decking. the sun destroys it early and often. building products advertised as 'maintenance free' that fail sooner than the first scheduled maintenance on the alternatives is the biggest architectural farce in recorded history.

there are lots more examples we could debate, but my problem with new construction isn't the methods, you can spec methods all you like and get quality assembly. it's the materials being assembled that quite simply, are not acceptable.

and the things people fall for as 'fad' are just hilarious to me.

example: the new floor fad of wood floors with random grooves cut in them, advertised as 'scraped'. really? are people that gullible? why would you willingly buy a floor that cannot be refinished? how can people not see that being the only reason that such a product exists? the flooring corporations had a means of getting cheap floors to be disposable, since you can't sand and refinish particle board/laminates. all they were missing was a means of making solid floor disposable, and they simply gouged up the floor prior to selling it and convinced people to want it.

baffling.