More questions than answers

[Derek Cohen]

Another update on the Military Chests ...

I am still working on preparing the drawer parts preparatory to dovetailing and assembly. It feels like I will never get there. 12 drawers at one time is more than I've done together before (6 was my previous record, and then the construction was Shaker).

Over the weekend I completed the slips, cut the drawer sides to length, and completed the drawer backs. The slips ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/Drawers/DrawerF.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/Drawers/DrawerE.jpg

All the parts are now done with the exception of the drawer bottoms. I have decided to make and fit these last. Usually I would fit them immediately after dovetailing the 4 sides, as it is a way of squaring the drawer. In this case, I am concerned about having too many planed boards lying around and their potential to cup. I have a jig that will ensure that the drawer is square as the glue dries. Comment?

All the parts ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/Drawers/DrawerG.jpg

The second of three questions I throw open to the forum is about the next stage in the drawer build. Before I dovetail the drawers I need to fit the drawer handles. These are to be recessed into the drawer front, so I plan to complete the mortices first, dovetail the drawers, then attach the handles.

I researched these handles quite a bit, discovering that they were now all made in India - even the ones said to be made in the UK. I was fortunate to discover that one of the local Perth stores that specialised in brass had a few of the different versions in stock. Philip Marcou gave me some tips on what to look out for. All of these handles are cast brass, which then requires finishing. It appears that some companies flattened the tops with a belt sander, with the result that the plate were not flat but curved. There would be signoficant difficulties recessing curved plates into flat drawer fronts. Indeed, all but one of the brass handles I looked at were rounded over. I ended with this ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/Drawers/HandleC.jpg

However, almost all the handles are slightly wavy at the edges ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/Drawers/HandleA.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/Drawers/HandleB.jpg

Here is the question: Do I leave them as is, or do I straighten them (on my disk sander)? Straightening them makes it easier to fit in the drawer front, but this may alter some of the "handmade look". Opinion?

The third question relates to the dovetail design. I ran up a couple of mock fronts. I shall mention my own preferences, but it hearing yours would be helpful in firming up the best design. And, of course, you may suggest something else.

The first was simply to create an even set. I like this, but it is my second choice ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/Drawers/DrawerA.jpg

My preference goes to a simpler, less cluttered look ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/Drawers/DrawerC.jpg

The third version did not come out as I intended - the dovetails look a little too skinny. I thought the centre two dovetails from the second example should have been closer, but then also I made them even slimmer. I think that was a mistake. However, let me know what you think of the spacing ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/Drawers/DrawerB.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[gary Zimmel]

IMHO the one that would get my vote is "A"

[Bill Moser]

One more vote for "A". As for the drawer bottoms, why not just build each drawer individually at this point?

[Jim Neeley]

Derek,

I too vote for "A".

Aesthetically, if I were to go with uneven tails (especially "C") I'd consider a houndstooth or other such mark to break up the size of the large ones.

Why are you tackling all 12 at once? Why not banks of 3? That'd give you most of the economy of scale while minimizing cupping time.

Just my $0.02..

Jim

[Christopher Charles]

I'll also say A. Simply looks and feels more balanced to my eye.Cheers Chris C

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

...Why are you tackling all 12 at once? Why not banks of 3? That'd give you most of the economy of scale while minimizing cupping time.

Just my $0.02..

Jim

Thanks Jim

Preparing the wood for 12 drawers is easier than 3 at a time. Just trying to economise the efforts involved.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Paul Saffold]

Which style dovetail will be more historically accurate? If that is relevant or not, I don't know.
Paul

[Jim Matthews]

While I have no doubt the third version is strong enough for household duty, it looks a bit twee to my eye.

My vote would be on the second version, as one fewer pin appeals to my native laziness...

[Jim Foster]

I like the second version of the dovetails better than the other two. Very nice work.

[Andrew Hughes]

I like the A version.I would keep the handles wavy and spend the time fitting them.

[Jim Koepke]

I like balance, so the A dovetails look good, but lifeless.

I think the B dovetails are a good middle ground of looks and a few less cuts.

As far as the hardware is concerned, will it be more difficult to cut the mortices for the wavy shape than it will be to square them up?

Less work tends to get a nod, but in the long run, crisp lines of fine finished hardware seems to go hand in hand with "Military Chest."

jtk

[Eric Brown]

Sorry Derek, but I don't like any of them. But thats just me. I like strong over looks.
Sure cutting more dovetails is more work. But so what. It's still easier
than fixing a broken drawer later. You know the wood being used and maybe who will be using them
(older vs kids) but ask yourself if it will last more than a hundred years. Build it to last.


Regards. Eric

[jamie shard]

I vote B but with bigger pins.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'm not one to know much about the strength of various layouts of dovetails, I've just heard bits and pieces of wisdom here and there, but no explanation. From my limited experience though, at least with half-blinds, adding or removing tails like Derek's doing here always seems to be a false economy for me - the majority of my time is spent removing the waste - particularly between tails - more cuts isn't that much more work once I'm in the flow; and having more or larger pins in the layout actually means less chopping. . .

[Bob Smalser]

All the parts are now done with the exception of the drawer bottoms. I have decided to make and fit these last. Usually I would fit them immediately after dovetailing the 4 sides, as it is a way of squaring the drawer. In this case, I am concerned about having too many planed boards lying around and their potential to cup. I have a jig that will ensure that the drawer is square as the glue dries. Comment?

On such a slow project you should cut all the drawer parts slightly oversize, stack the parts on your assembly cart after chalking their positions, then make and fit the drawers one at a time. No carcass is ever perfect, and the optimum fits of high-end work require each drawer to be individually fitted to its place.

The first step is to hand fit each drawer part to its place in the carcass before the drawers are assembled. How tight is a judgment call based on how your wood will behave and how you intend to use the piece. For example, true campaign furniture will spend lots of time outdoors and fits need to be relatively loose.

The second step is to cut the joints and glue up the drawer sans bottom. Use clamps, not the bottom to bring the drawer into square by measuring diagonals, and your glueup surface needs to be dead flat. A machine table is what I prefer.

The third step is to fit the drawer bottom. I much prefer crossgrain solid cedar. The bottom should fit relatively loose to it can't bind in its grooves and crack.

The last step is to carefully fit the assembled drawer to its opening. If you got Step One right and have a square carcass, often all that's required is to sand off the glue residue. Drawer parts except for the face are never finished, and bearing surfaces get a coating of hard wax for lubrication.

The pulls can be installed any time. I prefer to do it after assembly so I have more to hang onto than just the drawer face. I'd leave your pulls as they came from the foundry and make a template to fit their faces, as they don't appear to be very square.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Bob

Essentially I am following the same plan you carefully outlined. While I have been preparing all (bar the drawer bases) in advance, each drawer is constructed separately. I have built a several pieces with multiple drawers before, but not as many as the 12 here. This means more preparation. Still, it is easier to similar tasks, such as dovetailing, than start from scratch each time.

I am not concerned about the wood moving. Wood moves a result of moisture changes or internal stresses. To minimise movement in thin boards, such as the 3/8" thick boards here, you need to exclude air. Either clamp them all together with an extra board at each end, or cover with plastic cling wrap. This works for me. Minor bends can be remediated by constructing with them anyway (as is) - dovetail constructions are strong and will pull minor bends back into line.

To all who have responded about the dovetails ... my sincere thanks. I will go with A. The dovetails need to be "strong", that is, have presence. So they will not be as fine as "London-style". On the other hand, they are still part of fine furniture, so they will not be thick, kitchen types either.

I have put the handles on hold. The ones I have need some work. Or I need to find better quality ones. We will see.

This weekend I have Chris Vesper staying over for the Perth Wood Show, and will be helping his on his stand - each year we do this we end up having a "dovetail-off". Last year it was sawing the best houndstooth dovetails. Look out for Chris at WIA. He will have a new detail marking knife on show - designed by me! I'd post pictures but this may be considered advertising here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bob Smalser]

I am not concerned about the wood moving. Wood moves a result of moisture changes or internal stresses.



Be concerned about wood movement. Your premise assumes your wood is in perfect moisture equilibrium with its environment when that rarely is the case....especially after machining or planing operations that change the stock's thickness. The slightest moisture differential between the inside and outside of the wood causes wood movement after machining.

Unless you've checked that stock with a hi-end meter having insulated pins...you don't really know. And you're at the stage where a 32nd can spoil the piece, and even a 64th in the wrong spot separates the pro from the amateur.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/22744912/378470302.jpg

Cut your parts oversize and let your assembled drawers rest for a few days before final fitting. Your glue adds moisture to joints and they'll benefit from some time to equalize. Another reason to use hot hide glue.

[Derek Cohen]

Be concerned about wood movement.

Hi Bob

Thanks again. I think I overstated my position - I am concerned about wood movement, always. What I meant was that I do not anticipate big fluctuations with my present stock of cut pieces owing to the strategies I am using. Nevertheless I include a little leeway to repair what movement may occur.

As always, many thanks for raising my awareness as well as everyone one else interested in this issue.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Terry Beadle]

If it's not too late ( Hoot! ) I vote for B on the dove tails but with a bit more width in the pins.

I totally agree with resting the drawer parts a bit over size and build/fitting the drawers to the carcass one at a time. No carcass is truely square and no drawer slots are totally the same.

Keep us posted.