Good plane buy or not

[Glen Butler]

I am building a kitchen table. The top is quite intricate and I have never hesitated to take my glue ups to the local planing mill to have them sanded on their wide belt sander. I am not happy with the way this table turned out coming out of the sander. It gouged in some corners and edges and didn't take off the proper amount of material in others. I figure there is still enough thickness that I can fix it, but I know nothing of the art of hand planing.

I have been reading as much as I can over the internet recently, (some good book suggestions would be helpful) and found that a No 4 or No 5 jack plane is a good place to start. I have also been dabbling on ebay, but my research to this point is scant to say the least. As a total impulse buy to kinda get started actually handling a plane and learning the parts, I just committed to this Stanley for $25.50.

I am usually very patient with things I decide to purchase, but I am so lost when it comes to hand planing, I thought it might help to handle and use one a little.

Did I do well, or should I have been more patient?

206757

[Gary Kman]

If you can get it "shave-hair-off-your-arm" sharp, dead straight, and the sole makes good contact just in front of the blade it should work for you. Failing any of the three you are in for nothing but frustration and will never know what a pleasure hand planing can be.

Good luck and hope you make it.

[James Scheffler]

As long as the condition is good, that's a decent buy.

What kind of wood is the table made out of? That might make a big difference as to how well this particular plane might work. (Leaving aside vintage and condition, 45 degrees is good for some species but not so much for others).

If you have never really planed before, I suggest you put aside the table for a little while until the tool is tuned up well and you're comfortable with the technique.

Jim

[Glen Butler]

The table is cherry, walnut and maple, So nothing exotic, but the glue up is complicated and grain is running several directions.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I second the tune up and test before planing the table idea! However, that plane may not be appropriate for changing grain directions. A smoother with a high angle (50-55 degrees) and tight mouth may work better. You could make a smoothing plane, or two, in a weekend with a couple Hock irons. David Finck's book would be very useful to help you out in that department. A good card scraper or cabinet scraper would help too.

[Brian Kent]

1) I think you have a nice plane. Have fun learning to use it, sharpen it, set it, adjust each part.

2) But multiple woods and different grain direction is nearly impossible to plane.

3) Along with learning the plane, try it on edges of board, easy grain, and have fun.

[Glen Butler]

I thoroughly intend to tune up, sharpen, clean and practice with the plane before doing anything. I won't touch the table til I know what I am doing. Right now, card scraper, Hock iron and the difference between a jack plane, smoother, block plane, etc. is as good as greek to me. I have a lot of reading to do, and I should find some classes in the area.

[Glen Butler]

2) But multiple woods and different grain direction is nearly impossible to plane.


That is a bummer to find out. Is sanding the only option then?

[Dave Cav]

No, various types of hand scrapers work well on changing grain direction and multiple species. However, their learning curve is at least as high, or higher, than a hand plane.

[Brian Kent]

Or this:
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E107%2E2155&dept_id=13602
Or a card scraper.
Or a back bevel on the #5 blade to make it a higher angle.
Lot's of creeker stuff and internet articles on the card scraper and back bevel.

[Nelson Howe]

Don't lose all heart. Buy this book http://www.davidfinck.com/book.htm. It will answer a lot of your questions, and start you where you need to go. I would guess that to plane that table you will need a tight mouthed smoother with a 50 -55 degree bed angle. You can build that with David's book, just change the angle from 45. The book contains lots of good basic information for hand tool skills that will help you build the plane and do other tasks in working wood. It's hard to explain how liberating it becomes to be able to take a couple swipes with a hand plane to remove mill marks and leave a glass surface. But there is a lot of learning involved. It's all good learning. Not hard, but trial and error, probably best not done on the actual table top. If you're in a hurry to finish the table, sand away. If not, try the book.

Good luck,

Nelson

[Don Dorn]

1)
2) But multiple woods and different grain direction is nearly impossible to plane.



I agree - IMO, Cherry is devilwood.

To the original poster - you've been given good advise. I'll reitterate a couple of things. Make sure the sole is flat and that chipbreaker sits flush against the blade and that both sit flush on the frog. Learn to sharpen well - it takes just a couple of stones and a way to flatten them which doesn't have to be expensive. If you do those things, you'll be hooked for life at what they can accomplish and I'm happy you are getting started.

[James Scheffler]

I thoroughly intend to tune up, sharpen, clean and practice with the plane before doing anything. I won't touch the table til I know what I am doing. Right now, card scraper, Hock iron and the difference between a jack plane, smoother, block plane, etc. is as good as greek to me. I have a lot of reading to do, and I should find some classes in the area.

Sorry if I insulted your intelligence. Sounds like you're on the right track....

Jim

[Glen Butler]

Sorry if I insulted your intelligence. Sounds like you're on the right track....

Jim

Not at all. I've got thick skin. Even thicker when things are typed without inflection and feeling. There is no reason to get offended at someone trying to help.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Right now, card scraper, Hock iron and the difference between a jack plane, smoother, block plane, etc. is as good as greek to me. I have a lot of reading to do, and I should find some classes in the area.

Sorry 'bout that. I bet a link or two would have been helpful! There's been a couple threads here lately that have focused on scrapers, a search of the Neanderthal forum should turn 'em up rather quickly. If you have a Rockler or Woodcraft nearby, they may carry scrapers. I know that the Woodcraft near me has a decent selection of card scrapers, and even a few cabinet scrapers on hand. Scrapers are just rectangular pieces of saw steel that pull very fine shavings. They are good for small spots of tearout.
Smoothers are the planes that are a size or two down from a jack plane, your number 5 is a jack plane.
Since a link over to David Finck has been provided, here's a link over to Ron Hock. He makes irons for handmade planes, as well as replacements for Stanley's.
http://hocktools.com/

As a thought, what about making a small piece to simulate your table top out of scraps? You'd be able to try our all sorts of stuff and see issues as they arise.

[Glen Butler]

As a thought, what about making a small piece to simulate your table top out of scraps? You'd be able to try our all sorts of stuff and see issues as they arise.

It's funny you say that. The piece was inspired by scraps using left overs, abandoned pieces, and all the little TS rips from other projects. It started out a simple project to give my wife a kitchen table, into something I hope my children fight over when I am dead.:D I have been meaning to take some pics cause I need a little guidance. Hopefully I can get those later today or tomorrow.

I just watched a video linked from WoodCraft of Rob Cosman making .00035" shavings with IBC blades and he said that if you have an older stanley it would benefit from this upgrade, but not so much the newer commercially available planes. Does that plane appear old enough that I should plan on buying new iron?

[Brian Kent]

Yes, it is a good old plane. I don't know when it was built, but it is not the stamped steel junk that is available many places.

Sharpening is more important than blade replacement. If you decide to replace the blade, you can get a Hock replacement blade for $33.50 from Craftsman Studio, or a Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley (Veritas) from their websites for about $40. Craftsman Studio sells the IBC for $80. You can call Bill Kohr at Craftsman Studio at 888-500-9093. He does not charge for shipping on blades. He will also give you straight info on sharpening.

The only thing that you can skip from the Cosman video is any feeling that the other blades are not as good as his. His IBC blades have one feature that allows them to be a little thicker, but the others are also thick, steady, great steel, etc.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Since you said you're not familiar with plane sizes (smoother, jack, etc). I decided to make a few shavings and take a few pics this morning. The metal plane is an old Craftsman. Minimum clean up/set done this morning. All I did was scrub off a bit of rust, sharpen the original iron, and set the frog to hold the iron correctly. The sole isn't perfectly flat (yet...). It is 9 3/4" long. So it would be in the long range of a smoother. The wooden plane is a Krenov style (like you would learn about from Finck's book, or from Hock). It has a 55 degree bed and a shop made iron, and is 5 1/2" long. The woods planed were: hard maple, curly maple, padoux, and walnut. The woodie was able to plane in both directions due to a tight mouth and high angle, the metal plane...not so much. There's also a shot to compare size to a Stanley no 5.
Long story longer, my point is that any plane can be set to work. Replacement irons are an option, though I've never tried any of them. They would likely be an improvement.

[Roy Lindberry]

I am building a kitchen table. The top is quite intricate and I have never hesitated to take my glue up to the local planing mill to have them sanded on their wide belt sander. I am not happey with the way this table turned out coming out of the sander. It gouged in some corner and edges and didn't take off the proper amount of material in others. I figure there is still enough thickness that I can fix it, but I know nothing of the art of hand planing.

I have been reading as much as I can over the internet recently, (some good book suggestions would be helpful) and found that a No 4 or No 5 jack plane is a good place to start. I have also been paying dabbling on ebay, but my research to this point is scant to say the least. As a total impulse buy to kinda get started actually handling a plane and learning the parts, I just committed to this Stanley for $25.50.

I am usually very patient with things I decide to purchase, but I am so lost when it comes to hand planing, I thought it might help to handle and use one a little.

Did I do well, or should I have been more patient?

206757

If the plane is in fairly good condition and doesn't take a load of time to tune up, then I'd say you got a good deal there. And no matter what, getting that tuned up and working properly, it will be a good addition to your tool kit. That said, it might not be the right plane for your project (though it will give you practice with the mechanics of hand planing). Here are a couple of things to consider:

1. How big is the table? If it is a small table, then a #5 (that's what your picture looks like to me) should be adequate, as long as the mouth hasn't been filed open to be used more as a scrub plane. However, if your table is more than about 24 inches in length and width, which I would assume it is since it is a kitchen table, then I would recommend looking for a jointer plane (#7 or #8). These planes have much longer soles to ride the high spots and keep your surface flat. If money is an issue for you like it is for me, remember that you can often find wooden planes for less than the cast iron ones. They still take some tuning up, but it is far easier to true a wood surface than an iron one. Or, if you want a weekend project, you can actually make one for yourself.

2. Since your grain is running all different directions, and your glue up was not done with hand planing in mind, then a standard 45* bedding angle might give you a lot of tearout. The bedding angle is the angle at which the plane blade meets the workpiece. So here is another suggestion. Go with a bevel up jointer. They are harder to find used, and are pretty expensive new, but the great thing is you can hone a secondary bevel on the blade that gives you an effective angle of 50*, 55* or whatever you want. It allows you to custom sharpen your iron for the best results on your workpiece. Here is the Veritas Version (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?cat=51&p=52414), and the Lie-Neilsen version (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=7_5). Again, while these are expensive, the option to build your own is still there.

With all that said, your plane may work very well. Get it razor sharp and keep it that way, adjust the frog forward so you have a tight mouth, and don't take thicker shavings than you have to - at least on your finishing passes. If you are trying to remove material, then it will take a long time removing less than .001" at a time. But the thicker your shaving, the greater your chance of tear out in the wood, especially with changing grain. The backup plan is a scraper, which can work on all different grain directions. They come in the style of a bench plane (http://www.handplane.com/160/stanley-no-112-cabinet-scraper-plane/), or a similar fixture (http://www.sawdustandshavings.com/hand_tools/stanley_no_80_review.asp), or simply as a piece of steel (http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2020022/19046/Curved-Scraper-Set-4.aspx). Learn to sharpen them, and you will be able to clean up any minor tear out left by your plane. But if you scrape part of the table top, you will want to do the whole thing, since a scraped surface will finish differently than a planed surface. This is because they cut a bit differently. Also remember that the bigger the sole is, the easier it will be to keep the surface flat. With a card scraper, it can be easy to work one little area and end up with with a dip.

I know this is more than you were asking, but I hope it helps.

[Jim Koepke]

Glen,

A lot of good advice here.

If nothing else it shows there are a lot of ways to accomplish the same goal.

In my experience most of the newer blades may be better than the original Stanley blade. However, if the plane can not make consistent, controllable full width shavings with the original blade properly sharpened, then a replacement blade may not be an improvement.

Most of the benefit of a replacement blade is in the better consistency of the steel. Stanley's blades can be all over the place in hardness. My Hock blades are high carbon steel. They will hold an edge much longer than most of my Stanley blades. Most of the newer blades are also thicker. This can help eliminate chatter (vibrations or resonance) when planing. Many times this can be improved for an original blade by making sure the blade is seating properly on the frog and the chip breaker is also seating on the blade correctly.

A1 or A2 blades can be even harder steel and hold a useable edge longer. They are also harder when it comes time to sharpen them.

I can not put a date on your plane without a few more pictures, but it appears to be a post WW II model.

In the world of Stanley/Bailey planes from this era the quality falls in to a wide spectrum.

The good ones can be really good. The bad ones can be a real frustration.

With a freshly sharpened blade in my #3 or #4 smoother, it is possible to plane against the grain, mostly on pine, without tear out. This requires taking the thinest shaving and using a light touch. The planes are set with their mouths very tight. My blades usually do not have a back bevel, but this could be an aid in your situation.

I mention pine since that is the wood I most often use.

jtk

[Joe A Faulkner]

Glen, assuming there are no cracks in the sole or chips around the mouth, I agree with Brian that at $25 you got a good buy. Whether you tune it up, or go the card or hand scraper route, your journey requires sharpening skills and an investment in sharpening equipment. Lots of options and price points to consider on this topic. Having recently tuned a couple of these old Stanleys, I've found that the old irons can easily be sharpened to give results similar to what Mark demonstrated with the Craftsman plane above. Have fun tuning this plane. While it may not be the best tool for addressing the issue with your table top, it still has the potential of being a very useful addition to your shop. Keep us posted on the table top and on the plane.

[Steve Branam]

The best single source for learning basic hand planing skills I've seen is the DVD Handplane Basics: A Better Way to Use Bench Planes, by Chris Schwarz, available from the Lie-Nielsen site. This one really digests things down to essentials. He has others, but this is his best.

However, as others have mentioned, the varying grain directions complicate things. Ideally you can steer the plane along grain changes, depending on the complexity of the glue up. But if the pieces are small, that may be difficult. Not impossible, just harder to deal with. Probably not the ideal project for honing hand plane skills! But it can be done. Smaller, shorter planes may be better for that.

One of the best quick views for learning how to sharpen and use a card scraper is this YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKZWqdPFul8&NR=1. It'a amazing to see the fine shavings the guy produces.

With both of these, expect to put in some practice time. The problem with videos (and pretty much any instruction in general) is you're seeing someone who over time has developed their skill. It would be nice to be able to replicate their skill immediately based on their instruction, but there are plenty of pitfalls along the way. When you have a project awaiting completion, that can be frustrating.

[Chris Fournier]

You haven't lost your shirt - that's Friday night drinking money at best. If the plane is too tough just re-sell it and move on.

[Greg Wease]

I can't tell for sure but from the shape of the lateral, rounded top of the iron and what appears to be a blue bed, this may be a Type 20 plane. Although not the best era for Bailey planes (1960's) there isn't much you can do to hurt it! It should be a great vehicle to learn a little about bench planes--but I wouldn't bid any higher.

[Glen Butler]

I really appreciate you guys taking the time with me. I know these threads are often times a broken record. Thanks for all the info and links. It should have been obvious to hit the sticky's, so I will scour those links as well. Things are starting to gel now, and it does not feel so overwhelming. Here are some more views of the plane. I will be able to get some pics of the table tonight.

206838206839206842206841


Steve, That video link was great. I couldn't understand what the red handled tool is that put the actual cutting burr on.

[Steve Branam]

Steve, That video link was great. I couldn't understand what the red handled tool is that put the actual cutting burr on.

That's a burnisher. I strongly recommend getting a Hock burnisher (Hock turns up a lot around here for blades and tool steel due to high quality metallurgy). It's basically just a rod of tool steel, you'll have to add your own handle. But it can handle the steel in any scraper. I have a Two-Cherries burnisher that I scored deeply on the edge of an old Sandvik (now Bahco) scraper. My Hock burnisher isn't fazed at all by it.

I can almost turn a nice burr as easily as he does now after practicing a bit. It's useful to try turning and un-turning the burr repeatedly. You start to get a feel for the fine touch it takes to get just the right edge.

The nice thing about a scraper is that you can follow any path along the grain easily. You can also overdo it and dig scalloped troughs in the wood, like overdoing it with a sander. As with anything here, it takes some finessing.

[Roy Lindberry]

Steve, That video link was great. I couldn't understand what the red handled tool is that put the actual cutting burr on.

It's called a burnisher (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-SB520-50.XX&Category_Code=TG) and is made of hardened steel (harder than the scraper). They come in different shapes, but all for the same purpose: to roll a burr on the scraper. I've heard some people say they use HSS lathe gouges, but I don't know if they will work or not.

[Bill Moser]

The best single source for learning basic hand planing skills I've seen is the DVD Handplane Basics: A Better Way to Use Bench Planes, by Chris Schwarz, available from the Lie-Nielsen site. This one really digests things down to essentials. He has others, but this is his best.


Glen -
Before you do anything with that plane, you'll need to (at the very least) sharpen the blade. Chris Schwarz has also put out another DVD, "The last word on sharpening", which covers the basics very well. I'm sure his title is tongue-in cheek, since as everyone in this forum knows, there will never be a last word on sharpening :) There's a learning curve ahead, but its worth it!
- Bill

[Joel Goodman]

Lie Nielsen has some sharpening info on their website that you may find useful. http://www.lie-nielsen.com/pdf/Sharpening.pdf If you can attend one of their free events you will learn a lot and get to try out some excellent planes which will give you a baseline of what a plane can do. The schedule is on their website. I'm sure if you bring your plane they'll help you get it sharpened up. Also look at www.rexmill.com (http://www.rexmill.com) -- lots of good info there. In addition to sharpening the iron (to start) you need to check and usually tune up the chip breaker (cap iron to some).