how to stabilize delicate veneer

[George Gyulatyan]

I just took delivery of some wonderful veneer. Sabrina at Herzog Veneers (http://www.veneeronline.com/) was a pleasure to work with!

The sheets this post is concerned with are some plain sawn Wenge, with some unusual figure at one end that looks like a rather large (about 7-8" diameter) knot, which is what drew me to this particular flitch in the first place. Like an idiot I forgot to take some pictures, but I'll do so tomorrow for your viewing pleasure.

That particular section that I am so hell-bent on saving and using is falling apart even as I look at it. The best way to describe it's behavor is to think of it as a crumbly burl with tentacles.

I can't even lift/touch the section without it falling apart. Taping is what I am thinking, but the cracks/splinters are so numerous that if I tape them all, the sheet will look like an egyptian mummy.

So, my question is, how can I stabilize it, mend the numerous splinters to the point where I can cut it, shoot it, bookmatch it, and get it glued to the substrate w/o it further falling apart?

Thank you all in advance.

[Glen Butler]

Essentially, make one big piece of tape. Spread glue, contact cement, or other onto a sheet of sturdy paper and hold the whole thing together permanently on the side you aren't using. I have rolls of veneer held this way. I am no expert on glue, so cannot recommend the best one for you, but someone here surely is.

[Mike Henderson]

Don't use contact cement! There's two ways you can do it. Figure out which side is your show face, then you can use wide (maybe 2") veneer tape and tape the whole face, slightly overlapping the tape. Or use hide glue - spread the hide glue over the face then take newsprint (without printing is best, but if all you have is newspaper, use that) and spread it over the whole face of the veneer, slightly overlapping if one sheet will not cover it. Hide glue can be removed and will not affect the finish. Don't use other types of glue.

Then work the veneer as you normally would. After you glue the veneer to the substrate you can take the veneer tape or newsprint off.

DO NOT PUT THE NEWSPRINT OR VENEER TAPE ON THE GLUE FACE!!!! You want wood to wood contact when you press the veneer. When doing bookmatch work or a sunburst, figure out how the veneers will reverse BEFORE you apply the wide veneer tape or newsprint to the pieces. The paper MUST go on the SHOW face.

Mike

[George Gyulatyan]

Thanks for the replies and the advice guys.

Mike, I am liking the hide glue idea as considering the extent of the splits and cracks, this probably would be the way to go. I was even thinking using hide glue and hammer veneering for the actual process of building the panel. I have never done anything like this before so forgive me if I ask some obvious questions :)

1. One concern I have with glue is that it will seep through the cracks and the open grain down to the surface on which the veneer is placed, thus gluing the veneer to things I don't want it to be glued to. If I used some phenolic plywood which I have laying around, would this work in making sure that I am only gluing the veneer to newspaper?

2. Will this process cause any warping? Would you recommend I use a second phenolic sheet on top of the newspaper as a caul and clamp the whole thing as it dries to ensure I have a flat sheet to work with?

3. Would the Titebond Liquid Hide glue work for this or should I use the real stuff?

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks for the replies and the advice guys.

Mike, I am liking the hide glue idea as considering the extent of the splits and cracks, this probably would be the way to go. I was even thinking using hide glue and hammer veneering for the actual process of building the panel. I have never done anything like this before so forgive me if I ask some obvious questions :)

1. One concern I have with glue is that it will seep through the cracks and the open grain down to the surface on which the veneer is placed, thus gluing the veneer to things I don't want it to be glued to. If I used some phenolic plywood which I have laying around, would this work in making sure that I am only gluing the veneer to newspaper?
Put a sheet of plastic, waxed paper, or something similar under the veneer before you apply the glue.

2. Will this process cause any warping? Would you recommend I use a second phenolic sheet on top of the newspaper as a caul and clamp the whole thing as it dries to ensure I have a flat sheet to work with?
Hide glue is water based so it can cause warping. The amount of warping depends on the veneer - some are very stable and some turn into a potato chip. If you have some scrap veneer, spray some water on it and see what it does. If it warps, the best thing would be to take a couple of sheets of plywood or MDF (sized to fit your veneer, not 4x8 sheets) as cauls and lay the veneer between them after you put the paper on it, until everything settles out. Use plastic between the veneer and the cauls. The weight of the cauls are usually enough to flatten the veneer but you can pile some extra weight on them if you wish (like a few bricks). Do only one piece at a time so that you can get the piece in press before too much warping has occurred, especially if the pieces are large. If they're small, you can do multiple pieces at a time - just put plastic between them. You'll have to let the veneer dry well - in press - before using it. Even after it's dry, store it between two flat cauls to keep it flat until you use it.

I can offer more suggestions on drying veneer in press but I'll do that later if you need it. Basically it's the same as when you use flattening solution.

3. Would the Titebond Liquid Hide glue work for this or should I use the real stuff?
I haven't used the Titebond liquid hide glue for this application so I can't answer your question. Give it a try on some waste veneer and see how it does. Post the results here so the rest of us know what you learned.


Please see my comments in the quote, above. I'll just comment that all this work is generally only worth while for really special veneer. Otherwise, you learn to buy veneer that doesn't need all this pre-treatment.

Mike

[Oh, don't try hammer veneering on a difficult veneer, especially if you're just learning. I don't know what you have for pressing but the best thing is to apply the glue only to the substrate, lay the veneer down in place (tape it to keep it in place) and rush it into press before the veneer absorbs much water from the glue (if using water based glue) and makes like a potato chip. This is one place where an extra set of hands is usually worthwhile.]

[George Gyulatyan]

Thanks Mike. Appreciate the detailed responces. I am looking forward to this!

[Mike Henderson]

When you apply the veneer tape or newsprint, brush it down well. You want to make sure it's sticking everywhere.

Good luck! Post pictures when you're finished.

Mike

[George Gyulatyan]

Thanks Mike. I am getting one of those wooden rollers from Joewoodworker.com, so should be covered there.

Pictures will be coming, although I won't be using this portion of the veneer just yet. The upper portion is in a great shape and will be lining the inside walls of an alcove cabinet for the bar (glass doors, display case type thing), so that should give me some experience in working with Wenge veneer in general before I tacle the beastly lower portion.

Needless to say, I will be moving very, very cautiously with this.

Thanks again for all the great advice.

[larry senen]

if it was up to me, i would make a double ply out of it.

use poplar or some other inexpensive FLAT veneer as a backing.

spread some uni 800 on the backer and use a melamine caul with a coat of wax and vacuum clamp.

lay up1 face up and 1face down to book match later if you like.

[Glen Butler]

Then work the veneer as you normally would. After you glue the veneer to the substrate you can take the veneer tape or newsprint off.



I knew Mike would be the man on this one. I shouldn't have even offered, but it was late. I will try to stay in my area of expertise.

Mike, I have some projects in the works and sure wish I had your knowledge and wisdom. How do you clean off the newsprint and hide glue after you have glued it to the substrate and what do you use to glue it to the substrate? Moreover, what is working the veneer as you normally would? Or can you point me to some good reading on working with veneers? The only veneer I have used is paper backed and for cabinetry and you just adhesive it to the substrate.

[George Gyulatyan]

Hi Glen, I should definitely let Mike answer this one, but...

There are two usual ways to get the veneer tape off after the glueup. You can either wet it slightly and peel it off, or if you don't want to get any moisture on the veneer, you can scrape it off using a card scraper. This works when the tape is used to joint several sheets together.

In this instance however, I am thinking that due to the magnitude and the fact that the paper will be glued in place rather well and given the area that will be covered, I'll just use my ROS with 120 or 150 grit sandpaper.

[Mike Henderson]

I knew Mike would be the man on this one. I shouldn't have even offered, but it was late. I will try to stay in my area of expertise.

Mike, I have some projects in the works and sure wish I had your knowledge and wisdom. How do you clean off the newsprint and hide glue after you have glued it to the substrate and what do you use to glue it to the substrate? Moreover, what is working the veneer as you normally would? Or can you point me to some good reading on working with veneers? The only veneer I have used is paper backed and for cabinetry and you just adhesive it to the substrate.
Let me start by making a book recommendation - The Woodworker's Guide to Veneering and Inlay (http://www.amazon.com/Woodworkers-Guide-Veneering-Inlay-Techniques/dp/1565233468/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1315007515&sr=1-1). You clean the newsprint off by sanding or scraping with a card scraper. You don't have to sand or scrape it all off - once you get most of it, you can wet it and scrape the rest off with a paint scraper. Once it's all off, you can sand and finish the surface as you normally would.

"Working the veneer as you normally would" simply refers to doing what you planned for the veneer. That could be laying a panel with bookmatched or slipmatched veneer, doing some fancy match (like a four way match), or making a sunburst - just do whatever it is that you planned to do with the veneer. I've glued veneer with a variety of glues, such as white glue, urea formaldehyde, even epoxy. You choose the glue based on a number of things. For small things, such as boxes, plain old white glue works well. For larger panels, urea formaldehyde is a good choice because it gives you more open time and it sets hard. For jobs that aren't too big, and where the veneer will go crazy when water hits it, I've used epoxy since it's not water based. There are some non-epoxy glues that are not water based but I haven't used them yet.

Paper backed veneer is often used in millwork and cabinetry applications because it can be put down with contact cement, but it is rarely used in fine furniture.

Mike

[Larry's suggestion of double plying it is a good alternative.]
[I'll repeat my earlier comment - try to get veneer that doesn't require all this work. Rescuing veneer like this is a lot of effort and time.]

[George Gyulatyan]

if it was up to me, i would make a double ply out of it.

use poplar or some other inexpensive FLAT veneer as a backing.

spread some uni 800 on the backer and use a melamine caul with a coat of wax and vacuum clamp.

lay up1 face up and 1face down to book match later if you like.

Sorry Larry, just saw this. I do have some backer, so I'll give this a try. The good thing is, I have 16 sheets of this to play with and for the project, I'll need only four of them. I'll start with the ones that are in a really bad shape and are pretty much scrap to get some practice with and to see what to expect.

Mike, I am with you on getting veneer that doesn't require this kind of work. Like I said, the upper portion of these sheets are in a great shape, so will work great for panels. The lower 3.5feet or so of them has this crazy figure which is quite rare on Wenge, which is why I am so hell-bent on saving it. I'll take a pic of it over the weekend and post here.

Thanks again for all the wonderful responses.

[George Gyulatyan]

Closer inspection shows that it isn't in as bad a shape as I thought. In fact, it is in a pretty good shape considering the character of the material. There are some splits along the annular rings, but I believe some veneer tape is all that will be necessary to patch things up. I'll just have to use sandpaper to true the edges.

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Thanks all for the great advice.