What diamond product to purchase for stone lapping?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

So using diamond products to lap waterstones has come up a few times in threads here recently, and it's been something that's kicking around in the back of my head for a while now, so sooner or later I should bite the bullet. It's certainly on my short list after a couple of other tool purchases. I like the idea of not dealing with sandpaper and adhesive and a piece of granite, and I like the idea of a plate over loose grit for simplicities sake.

Right now I'm using a 1000,5000, and 8000 set of the Naniwa "Super Stones". I might "upgrade" someday, but I have no idea if that's a proposition that's worth it or not; I've limited experience with different sharpening media. Regardless, I like the edges I'm getting, and while I may experiment by adding a higher polishing stone, I'll probably be using these until they run out; there's a lot better things I could be using my money on.

I know the sandpaper stone-flattening thing works for me now, but it's annoying, and most likely more expensive. What should I look at for a diamond plate/stone? I see the "Dia-Flat", which is supposedly made for this sort of thing, but runs more than my three stones cost me. "Dia-Sharp" are on sale at Woodcraft, but don't come nearly as large, and I guess aren't made with stone lapping in mind. There's other options at Stu's store, I haven't looked at the Yen/USD conversion rates yet, though. There's the perforated style diamond plates both by DMT and some other brand at the box stores. I'm sure there's plenty more out there.

So I have no idea what's the best bet here. I imagine at some point you get what you pay for, but I'm willing to sacrifice some to save on cost. If a more mid-priced option gets me half the life, but saves me considerably up front, it may be worth it for now.

I'm not a sharpening aficionado by any means. I know what sharp is, and a few ways to get there, but in the end I prefer slightly cheaper and slightly less messy, and then to just get back to work. Is there something I should look for in a product (other than flat, of course.)? Anyone got some pointers?

[Chris Vandiver]

Bite the bullet and get this; http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/TDIAFLAT.htm

You won't regret it and in the long run you'll save money. Just remember to use these plates on your stones only(that is if you want them to last).

[David Weaver]

what is the grit of the diaflat plate?

[David Weaver]

I would get a duosharp from ebay or wherever, with the stones you mentioned, you want a 325 side on it somewhere. If you need something more coarse than that, the stones are getting too out of flat before you dress them.

I paid $60 for one with shipping the last time I bought, W8FC... or something, Fine/Coarse , which IIRC is 325/600. Bought one for a buddy, too, and bought one for schtoo with a stand (he can't get them in japan) for about $65.

That and the atomas have all worked fine for me, and anything I've used has been good as long as it doesn't get used for tool steel.

[Fred Krow]

The Dia-Flat Lapping Plate is 120 micron and is made for flattening not sharpening.

Regards,
FK

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Is it something about tool steel in particular to watch out for; or using it on metal in general? I've heard good things about using these for fret levelling; normal fretwire is considerably softer than tool steel.

When you mention I want a 325 side for my stones; is that because of the materials that make up my stones, or the coarseness of grit of the stones I mentioned? I find 220 or 320 wet dry sandpaper works quickly (while it's fresh) as I try and make an effort to use the entirety of my stones.

I've also seen a video where folks lapped their coarsest stone, and then flattened the others against each other, lapping each stones against the next one coarser. I didn't have the greatest results with this as I found the "stiction" tough to overcome; (although that was also right about the time things were flattened) but does anyone have comments on that method?

[Chris Griggs]

By all accounts I've heard the no. 1 choice would be the Atoma 400, which will run you about $100-$120 shipped. Second choice would be an iWood (from tools from japan) or a duosharp. I've used both the duosharp and iWood for flattening and they work well. Supposedly the atoma is better. I'd stay away from the dmt diasharps - many people use them with success, but I'm not a fan of them. Regarding the diaflat - never used it - but I personally wouldn't spend that money when there are so many other good options out there, but thats just me.

[Bob Warfield]

I don't know about all this sharpening business. It sure seems to me that the "latest greatest this is what you need" seems to change every couple of months. I started out with automotive sandpaper and a granite stone from Woodcraft. It got all my edge tools very sharp but almost always dubbed over the corners of my chisels, a good thing on the plane blades. After attending a couple of LN Tool Events I switched to Norton waterstones. I kept them flat on the granite stone & sandpaper combination. After the most recent Tool Event in St. Louis I was told I really needed the 4"X10" DMT bench stone for flatening my waterstones so I bought it and it does work very well. It seems that now all the sudden that isn't any good, I need the new diamond steel plate! I have added a 16,000 Shapton just to satisfy my curiosity but until ALL this is completely worn out, I'm done.
Good Luck,
Bob

[David Weaver]

Bob, let us know when you've worn that thing out. That's my thought about needing something better (as in you'll have forgotten what the dia flat plate is before you wear out your hone - as long as you save at least one side for stones only).

For anyone who *does* manage to wear the diamond electroplate off of a hone, buy $20 worth of 100-220 grit diamonds or something of the like and smash them into the hone surface by lapping something on it. The loose diamonds will come off pretty easily. If you have any fear about leaving a stray diamond on a waterstone, rinse off the stone and feel the surface. If you can't feel grit, it's not there.

Joshua - you are right, I mention that grit because it is acceptably fast for the 1000 stone, but it will also leave a reasonably nice surface on your polishing stone. I do not like ultra coarse stones for fine hones. You should see what the razor guys do to their stones - they're nuts. Somewhere between coarse and what they do is a good compromise, and I think 325 grit is right around there.

I have used my atoma on stones that are so hard that it's difficult to raise a slurry with them with a diamond hone, and it is still in good shape. I made the mistake of ultimately using the DMT on steel, and wore it out probably by rubbing diamonds off of it. It is just about spent, but I use it to scuff a HTA arkansas once in a while. At some point, i'll refresh it with diamond powder and use it as a hone again. To date, I've bought 6 electroplate hones...er 7. Two are dedicated stone only hones (one oil stone, one waterstone), they are both still fresh - they'll get damaged from being dropped before they wear out. Two I flat wore out using them, they hardly cut at all, and the others I still have around to use on steel. I think all but the two that I use on the stones were a waste of money.

[Stuart Tierney]

By all accounts I've heard the no. 1 choice would be the Atoma 400, which will run you about $100-$120 shipped. Second choice would be an iWood (from tools from japan) or a duosharp. I've used both the duosharp and iWood for flattening and they work well. Supposedly the atoma is better. I'd stay away from the dmt diasharps - many people use them with success, but I'm not a fan of them. Regarding the diaflat - never used it - but I personally wouldn't spend that money when there are so many other good options out there, but thats just me.


Umm...

Yeah...

Might want to check that, there's been a slight (conditional) price adjustment... :eek:

Surprised nobody has picked up on it yet. It's been up for a week.


Stu.

[David Weaver]

i did! I like to think the whole thing was partly my idea! Minus the diamond hone, at least (that is a nice twist, though).

[Stuart Tierney]

i did! I like to think the whole thing was partly my idea! Minus the diamond hone, at least.

Actually, you probably had something to do with it. As per usual... :rolleyes:

I've been thinking about it for some time, and how to implement it. Then I read something about using sandpaper for flattening and how the diamond plates were a waste of money and whatnot and sandpaper was cheap, cheerful and had no downsides.

I got a bee in my bonnet, and decided that if sandpaper was really good, could it compete with a (kinda) free diamond plate?

Survey says "not a chance" ;)


Your speckly yellow thing shown up yet?

Stu.

[Chris Griggs]

Umm...

Yeah...

Might want to check that, there's been a slight (conditional) price adjustment... :eek:

Surprised nobody has picked up on it yet. It's been up for a week.


Stu.

Yep saw that on your site yesterday. Good deal - REALLY good deal actually. Folks in the market for new stones would have to be nuts not to take you up on that. However, as you know I already have some stones from you on the way. Can't wait for my speckley egg colored thing to show up.

[Stuart Tierney]

Chris, yours are not speckly yellow, just yellow and speckly pink.

But buttah smooth. ;)


Stu.

(How the heck do I shift 3 dozen stones I made a mistake with quickly? Hmm...)

[Chris Fournier]

Buy yourself a 12"X18"X3" granite inspection plate and use wet/dry paper. You can level all of your water stones with this set up and use the inspection plate to lap planes, chisels etc. I costs less than a diamond plate as well.

[David Weaver]

Survey says "not a chance" ;)


Your speckly yellow thing shown up yet?

Stu.

Yeah, no way. I just hope a few people see that, because to my mind, I was suggesting it as something I wish existed when I was blowing lots of money on stones. Adding the "best" (my opinion) midrange diamond hone is a really nice touch - nice complete turnkey set.

No packages yet, but it can't be far off. I have a few irons to try on the 3000 (looking forward to being able to dump the sloppy aoto, it doesn't like the really hard irons, anyway) and a fat 1820s 7/8 old english wedge razor and another vintage solingen razor coming that will benefit from the delivery, I'm sure. Maybe I'll end up eating my words!

[Randy Klein]

Folks in the market for new stones would have to be nuts not to take you up on that.

I guess I'm not nuts then:D

[Bob Smalser]

$60 to $200 for a plate to flatten sharpening stones? Ridiculous. Y'all have to be kidding.

Just toss a dry sheet of 25-cent, 80-grit wet-or-dry paper on the ground jointer table and have at it. It'll make short work of sandstone.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17020258/263581563.jpg

[john brenton]

If you've never had a vintage solingen razor you're going to love it. I bought and sold a few razors there for a while, but ended up keeping an American, a Sheffield, and a Solingen (all hollow ground). The difference in steels and weights is so varied, and of course it is a variance you can feel.

Pfffft....stones for stones? When I want to flatten my stones I just put some mortar between my cheeks and put the stone in there while I walk around the shop.


Yeah, no way. I just hope a few people see that, because to my mind, I was suggesting it as something I wish existed when I was blowing lots of money on stones. Adding the "best" (my opinion) midrange diamond hone is a really nice touch - nice complete turnkey set.

No packages yet, but it can't be far off. I have a few irons to try on the 3000 (looking forward to being able to dump the sloppy aoto, it doesn't like the really hard irons, anyway) and a fat 1820s 7/8 old english wedge razor and another vintage solingen razor coming that will benefit from the delivery, I'm sure. Maybe I'll end up eating my words!

[David Weaver]

I shave with two solingen razors, three I guess if you count a small solingen origin 4/8 razor, but it's too small and light and I feel like as little as it has in oomph, i'm going to end up with a nasty cut with it - I don't use it much.

I've had some domestics, just don't now - but only because my germany-origin razors have been in better shape cosmetically. I just sent a gruesome looking 6/8 from detroit to schtoo (a razor to waste off playing with stones and powders), it felt a lot like german steel on the stones, though I didn't finish honing it for a reason I can't recall. It was marked detroit "standart warranted" brand, and has those horrible looking imitation bamboo scales (they look like finger bones) that must've been popular 100 years ago.

I saw your post the other day about finding a filarmonica razor - never used one, and at the rate they sell, I probably won't! If I found one at an antique store cheap (unlikely), I'd give it a shot, though. The shave board people are nutty about them. I don't get as goofy about shaving as we do about woodworking, I just like to use them to shave, it makes my morning a lot nicer.

[john brenton]

I didn't shave with the Filarmonica. One because even honing it up would have killed the whole "mint factor", and two because those blades are way too big. They are made for big viking beards or something.

The American is the first straight razor I ever bought. It's a polished Henkels half-hollow (no relation to Henckles). It's a good razor but the steel is a little hard. Nice traditional celluloid/ivoroid handles with the art deco design.

I forget who the Solingen razor manufacturer was...something really bizarre. It was never used and has antler scales. It's the difference between a new plane iron and a good old woodie iron. One swipe on the stones or the linen strop and it just leaves a big black carbon trail. It's a quarter-hollow unpolished.

By far the best shave I get, or have ever gotten, is with the Wenstenholm 4/8 pipe razor. The camber is just perfect, and none of the other razors I've ever had have done as effective of a job. It doesn't do too well on a shaggy face, but it's my 5 o'clock shadow razor. It just so happens to be the razor that cut the bejeezus out of my face. The tang is so tiny for my clumsy hands that it slipped...even with the ridges on the grip of the tang. When I say bejeezus of course I mean a micro slice so tiny that it took five minutes for blood to come out...and you can't even see it...but for the face that's a "bejeezus".


I shave with two solingen razors, three I guess if you count a small solingen origin 4/8 razor, but it's too small and light and I feel like as little as it has in oomph, i'm going to end up with a nasty cut with it - I don't use it much.

I've had some domestics, just don't now - but only because my germany-origin razors have been in better shape cosmetically. I just sent a gruesome looking 6/8 from detroit to schtoo (a razor to waste off playing with stones and powders), it felt a lot like german steel on the stones, though I didn't finish honing it for a reason I can't recall. It was marked detroit "standart warranted" brand, and has those horrible looking imitation bamboo scales (they look like finger bones) that must've been popular 100 years ago.

I saw your post the other day about finding a filarmonica razor - never used one, and at the rate they sell, I probably won't! If I found one at an antique store cheap (unlikely), I'd give it a shot, though. The shave board people are nutty about them. I don't get as goofy about shaving as we do about woodworking, I just like to use them to shave, it makes my morning a lot nicer.

[David Weaver]

There are apparently lots of weirdo solingen manufacturers (or were), right? (like I said, I don't follow razors too much). The ones I have, one was branded for Philip Eisamann hardware in Lancaster, PA, another one has an engraved spine and the brand Friedr. Dennert, and the third one - the skinny one - is "magna" brand. I'm getting a Massachusetts made razor in the mail today, and a wedge ( a true wedge - 1820s sheffield style ), but if they're like the rest of the razors I've used, they'll be out the door before too long because I can't unseat my two big germans, especially the dennert. I end up with off-brand, or non-collectible razors because I can't bear to pay what people want for the ones that are popular to collect, no matter how good the razors.

Neither of my two 6/8 users are too soft, though. The only stones that make black with them are the shapton and chosera, and I kind of like to keep my razors off the artificial stones. I did have a robeson shure-edge NY made razor that left black everywhere, though. it was nice, but too small and thin, like the others i've cast off.

No way I could keep a razor around and not use it - filarmonica or not. There appear to be a lot of filarmonica razors that were never used on ebay, people want the moon for them. I wonder why there are so many - maybe they are just more popular for dealers to put on ebay since they can bring big bucks. If I ever came across such a thing, I would put it on the stones the day I found it and have a shave with it before the end of the morning the following day.

I have done a lot worse to my face than what you're describing - mostly when I haven't gotten cut in a while and I get complacent about handling the razor while it's not in the cut. Nothing that would ever put me in a horror movie, though.

[Mike Holbrook]

Dang stop all the talk about straight razors, I was itching to buy one before...I love my long tooth, open comb, double edge but I have been teetering on the fine edge....

[john brenton]

I just took a look through and it's been a while. I haven't looked at razors in at least a year or so. There's quite a few nice ones right now, you just need to stay away from the big names that people have on saved searches: Butcher, Dovo, Filarmonica, Henckles etc etc.

I never paid more than $20 for a straight razor, and they were all just about mint. Actually that's not true. The one time I paid more that $20 it turned out to be a piece of junk. Funny how that works.

Dang stop all the talk about straight razors, I was itching to buy one before...I love my long tooth, open comb, double edge but I have been teetering on the fine edge....

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, yours are not speckly yellow, just yellow and speckly pink.

But buttah smooth. ;)


Stu.

(How the heck do I shift 3 dozen stones I made a mistake with quickly? Hmm...)

Not yellow! Egg colored, I was told it would be egg colored:D

[john brenton]

I looked for a long time for a good dedicated razor hone, but those dang ebayers just drive the cost up like crazy. We're talking 10 bids with 6d 7h to go. You know what I'm talking about. It's ridiculous.

I had one of those "Smith's" grey arkansas stones they have at home depot, you know the ones that are mounted to plastic. I took it off the plastic and lapped it on progressively finer sandpaper. It turned out to be a perfect touch up razor hone. Except for the initial shaping and honing with the Nortons to get the razor up and running, in three years I've never had to hone with anything else.


I kind of like to keep my razors off the artificial stones.

[David Weaver]

For a while I just used the shapton and then zinged the razor on some green powder to take the smarts off (graded powder that's a little more uniform and less aggressive than the LV green stuff). Shapton = ouch shave.

I could never be convinced to buy an escher or a charnley forest or any of these other ones that were cheap and common when they were mined but now are somehow monstrously expensive. Even the coticules have gotten ridiculous over the last few years (I think a fast cutting one of those would actually be a nice woodworking stone, but not at $350). tiny little stones for $500 :confused:

Last month, I bit the bullet and called alex gilmore and told him I wanted something small and inexpensive (ugly was OK, as long as it was fine and cut fast enough to be effective to use), and got a small antique japanese razor stone. It is the finest and most buttery (while still being hard) stone that I have ever used, I can't imagine what an "expensive" one might be like. I can strop off the palm of my hand 10 times and get a very close comfortable shave with no irritation. I no longer use a leather strop, no pastes, etc, so the edge of the razor is exactly the same every single shave.

I could get almost as good of results off of the very cheap woodcraft chinese stone, though, and that one can cut fast if you have anything that can raise just a little bit of a slurry on it. I think they were less than $20 this past week. Still have to be able to flatten it initially, but surprisingly good for razors even if I could never get along with it for woodworking.

The particulars of being able to get a good quick comfortable and sharp edge straight off of a stone with no strops, pastes or powders has helped me understand how to get a lot more out of some natural stones I had dismissed as being slow, scratchy or useless.

So, ...mike, can we help push you over the edge? Everyone here who has stones has a leg up on using a straight razor, because the only thing you could possibly want is a stone that might be finer and a little less aggressive as a finisher than something like a normal woodworking 6000 grit type stone would be (and that's something that can be had for $20). Well, that and a clean strop.

My mode when I am buying razors is to go to ebay some monday evening and search "straight razor", and go through the razors in nearest ending time, and then let esnipe do the work for me. If it doesn't work out, then I do it again some other day.

I can't boast of paying little as often as john, I paid $65 for the dennert razor several years ago. But, it has classy silver dressed scales that might be ivory, jimps on both sides of the tang, a french point, almost perfect corrosion free metal and very nice engraving on the spine and no sign of wear on it. All of the rest of my plain razors have been somewhere in the neighborhood of $15-$20, and all have been good shavers.

The wedge cost me $75, though. I just couldn't find a good wedge cheap - I don't understand why everyone wants to pay gobs for a sheffield made wedge.

(sorry for to the OP the OT)