It's all downhill from here...yet another newbie question

[Marty Walsh]

Kind folks,

I've been 'dabbling' in electron driven woodworking for some ten+ years. I've done commission cabinet work, commission custom stuff (picture frames, jewelry boxes, etc.), plus a slew of furniture here in the house, dressers, tables, etc.

I've been lurking here in "the cave" for some time and I'm not sure what the actual catalyst was that made me pull the trigger, but I've gone and done it. I've ordered a LV #4 and a LV Standard Block. I spent (way too much) time at the LN booth at the Chantilly VA WW show this past weekend, and tried to purchase the LN equivelants, but they were sold out and told me it would be about 10 or more days before I could take delivery. I know I probably should have held out and waited, but I'm a slave to instant gratification, and I was worried that I'd change my mind if I waited.

Knowing very little about sharpening, I picked the brain of the guy manning the LN booth. I watched him put edges on several blades, and was amazed at the shavings he made. We talked about a few options for sharpening, and based on his recommendations, I picked up a set of Norton stones and a guide. (They were out of stock on those as well, but TWC came through and saved me $'s to boot!) He also gave me a crash course in setting the blade depth, making test cuts to determine parallel cutting, etc.

Based on advice in postings here, I've ordered Hack's Handplane book. I already have a copy of Sharpening by Thomas Lie-Nielsen, that came with Taunton's "Complete Illustrated..." sets. And my head is still spinning from all the other things I've been reading lately, here and elsewhere...

With all that background out of the way, here's my question:

I expect to come home from the office tomorrow to find the FedEx box sitting waiting for me. I'm excited and anxious.

Do I just open the boxes and start trying to make my very first shavings, or do I need to do some tuning first?

If it matters, my short term goal is to use my new tools to clean up and finish the surfaces on some curly maple that I'm using as drawer fronts on a large project. I also plan to use them to help me fit these inset drawers.

At this stage, any and all advice any of you care to share is welcome. I hope you can all help me learn to appreciate these new tools as much as I do my black and green sanders...;)


P.S. This is my first posting here, so if I've broken any rules, or failed to follow protocol, please let me know and I'll do my best to correct my ways and pay closer attention in the future.

Thanks again...
- Marty -

[Doug Shepard]

....Do I just open the boxes and start trying to make my very first shavings, or do I need to do some tuning first?
.....
P.S. This is my first posting here, so if I've broken any rules, or failed to follow protocol, please let me know and I'll do my best to correct my ways and pay closer attention in the future.

Thanks again...
- Marty -
Well you haven't broken any rules yet. Since you're new here I need to warn you about the picture police. First thing you do after opening that box is take some digital pics. Only then do you start making shavings. Then you take more pics. Then you do any necessary tuning and make more shavings. Then you take more pics. Then you post a gloat message so we can all ogle your new toys.:)

Welcome to the Creek.

[Jim Dunn]

And make sure you post pics!! Or we'll sic Tyler on your X#*:) And by the way welcome to the Creek, a great place to visit or stay for a long while. So long as you post PICS".

Jim

[Karl Laustrup]

First of all Welcome to the Creek! I think you'll find it a very good place to learn and there are always those of us [read me] that are looking for answers.

Secondly, I have not gone over to the "Dark Side", YET, so I can't answer your questions, but I will pay attention to the answers. I am kinda figuring that my knuckles will be dragging the ground before the end of the year, though.

[Mike Holbrook]

Welcome to the Creek Marty.

I am pretty new too, but I have been posting questions as fast as I can and learning a great deal.

I received a LV, LA Jack and a LV, LA Block both in the last month. I think you will find that you can use the LV's right out of the box. However, I think you can improve on them too. I got a Tormek Sharpening system for Christmas and went crazy on my new plane blades.

I think you should know that LV puts micro bevels on their plane blades. A micro bevel (MB) is a very small bevel on the edge of the blade. MB's are used in an effort to shorten sharpening time and maybe reduce damage to the edge of the blade. Some people love MB's, some hate them. I followed the advice in my Tormek sharpening book and tried to regrind the edges to a plain single bevel. I opened a whole can of worms doing that. I found that grinding out the micro bevels was not as easy as it sounded.

So if you decide to sharpen those blades be aware of those micro bevels. LV makes some very good sharpening equipment. You may want to consider their Honing Guide and Angle Setting Jig and some good stones to start if you do not have anything. You do not want to just toss those boys on a regular grinder. Heating up that steel could ruin it. If you do not have experience sharpening plane blades you will probably want to do a little research and reading on it. Your sharpening skills will be a major factor in determine how well those planes function for you.

[Alan Turner]

Marty,

Welcome to SMC.

As to your questions, I have only one LV plane, the Med. Shoulder, and I can't recall if it came with a microbevel or not. It was pretty sharp out of the box, but did require a bit of honing. The back required a bit of polishing as well. All plane irons require this touchup work, including the LN's, and the Hocks.

You are to be working on curly maple, you say. It is doable, but not the easiest place to start, so begin with practice on some scrap. The curl is caused by the grain quickly changing direction, which for planing means that about half the time, you are going the wrong way. The two important settings to overcome the tendency for tearout will be the blade depth, and the mouth opening, both of which should be quite small. Since you have sanders, I will guess that you have used these sanders on the surfaces already. If so, then you will have embedded some grit into the wood, and thus, until you plane to fresh wood, you will see very fast iron wear in terms of sharpness. Be ready to hone often.
You have bought a No. 4, which is a smoother, of course. On my smoothers, when I hone, I put a very small radius on the iron so that the corners of the iron never get to the wood being planed, and thus leave no sharp ridges. This is done only on the 8000 stone, by gently taking a few strokes with pressure on one side, and then the other. 2 to 3 strokes each side, with only moderate pressure; doesn't take much. Hold the iron to the light, with a good straight edge carefully held across the top, and you will see the curve. I make mine about .002 low on each side, from top dead center.
In terms of fitting the drawers with planes, I do this always, and it is peasurable work. Plan to take your time and it will go quicker. Hopefully you planned to plane the drawers to fit when you did your layout of the drawer parts. If so, then the grain will rise, front to back, on the sides, and you can plane front to back. Take a block plane and clip the back corners just a bit, so that when you finish the stroke, you do not get splintering on the rear of the pins.

There is a learning curve here, and you should enjoy the process if you take your time.
Alan

[Marty Walsh]

Thanks to everyone that replied.


The LN guy did in fact put a MB on the blades he sharpened, and encouraged me to do the same. He also showed me the "ruler trick" to polish the blade backs.

As I said, I have the Norton waterstone set and a guide. I'll examine the blades when I open the box and will attempt to duplicate the MB. (I'll take a few macro closeup shots of the blades as reference...)

Oh, and I'll be taking and posting pictures from box to shavings...hopefully tonight. Far be it for me to madden the pic police...:p

- Marty -

[Alan Turner]

The ruler trick is fine for a bench plane, but not a block plane or chisel.
Alan

[Jim Dunn]

All right. No secrets here, what's the ruler trick? I ave no idea what your talking about.

[Marty Walsh]

Alan,

I hadn't planned to hand plane the drawers to fit them, (Festool was going to do it). But the grain does indeed lend itself to the process, so I'll be attempting it once I get a good feel for the tools.

I guess I lucked out on another note too, since I haven't yet put a sander to the drawer fronts, so no extra grit. They're straight from my electron driven planer. Hopefully this will help me not have to hone all that often. Although, I'll be keeping an eye on things to make sure I keep the blade as sharp as possible.

But, that's jumping ahead. If the FedEx truck shows up as expected, I'll be trying them both out on some scrap tonight (and probably for the next day or two). No way will that metal touch a drawer front until my hands are used to the process.

Oh, and you say the 'ruler trick' isn't good for block planes. The LN failed to inform me of this. Care to share the reason?

Thanks for the valuable advice...
- Marty -

[Mike Holbrook]

Missed the fact that you had sharpening all taken care of.

The LV guide has an interesting little adjustment on their roller wheel. By turning a nob on the wheel you can get a 1 or 2 degree angle change. It's sort of an auto micro bevel adjustment, nice if you find you like the micro bevels.

Those extra degrees can come in handy for making things like York pitches (50 degrees) too. I have two blades for both my LV planes now. I plan to have one blade ground for soft & one for harder wood. Since I am just starting out, and have just the two functioning planes, versatility is important.

[Jerry Palmer]

My experience with LV planes and the sharpness of the iron right out of the box is that it gives you a pretty good idea of what "almost sharp" is. Of course, my experience is based on but a single LV plane, the large shoulder plane, which I finally got yesterday. I gave it a bit of a test drive and am impressed. Imagine what it'll do after I tune the blade a bit.

[Mark Stutz]

Marty,
Again, welcome to the Creek. I'm also fairly new to this, but I think the reason you wouldn't a back bevel on the block plane is because you orient the bevel opposite that far the bench planes.

Jim,
The ruler trick is for David Charlesworth, I believe. He lays a thin ruler along one side of the 8000 stone and takes a few strokes across the stone, onto and off of the edge to put on a microbevel. Takes just a few strokes. Easier to show than describe for me. I'll show you when we can get together!

Mark

[Marty Walsh]

Mark,

Thanks for the welcome.

The way LN the guy used the ruler trick was to polish the back of the blade. He put a very thin metal ruler on the right side of the 8000 stone, then gave the back of the blade a few strokes on the left side of the stone, resting the blade on the ruler instead of the stone itself.

He explained that this allowed you to polish only the last bit of the back of the blade instead of having to polish the entire back. Claimed it saved a bunch of time since all we needed was a polished surface near the business end of the blade.

He did his micro-bevel with a different 'trick'. He had a small block of wood set at a certain pre-determined distance from the end of the bench. He would hold the guide against the edge of the bench, slide the blade up against the block and proclaim that he now had the guide/blade combo set at exactly 'xx' degrees. (He had several blocks for various angles.)

When it came time to put on the tertiary (he wouldn't say third) bevel on the blade, he grabbed a piece of 1/8 masonite, slid it in front of his block on its end, slid the blade up against the masonite and proclaimed that he had now increased the angle by exactly two degrees. Presto, a MB! I plan to check this theory, since it would appear to make angle setup completely repeatable and a no-brainer.

I'm in no way contradicting you, simply parroting what I was told.

Thanks again to everyone for their welcomes and advice. Now if only the FedEx truck would show up...I even came home early from the office...:confused:

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

FedEx arrived!!!!


To appease the picture police, let me first do this:
http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuw47/Just_boxes.sized.jpg
And this:
http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuw47/The_planes.sized.jpg

Ok, with that out of the way I have a few observations and questions.

First, LV delivered both of these beauties with MB's:
http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuw47/Micro_Bevel_4.sized.jpg
http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuw47/Micro_Bevel_block.sized.jpg

And the first question I have for all of you is, how do I (or do I) remove the slimy oily film that covers everything on both of these tools?
http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuw47/Oily_blade_4.sized.jpg
http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuw47/Oily_block_blade.sized.jpg

And my second question, once I clean these, assuming I'm supposed to, exactly what should I do to "tune" them? I'm not sure the detail shows well in the pics above, but both blades are a little 'ragged'. Since I've never sharpened something to REALLY sharp, I'm not sure there's anything wrong.


Ok and finally, should I have just posted links to the above pics for everyone stuck with (ugh) dialup?

I'm sliding....:eek:
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Since I didn't get any responses to my question about prepping/cleaning my new toys, and we've already established that I'm a sucker for instant gratification, I followed the LV instructions and used Mineral Spirits to remove the rust inhibitor. And since LV didn't include my sharpening guide in this shipment, I decided I had no choice but to give them a try as is.

http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuw47/Block_Shavings.sized.jpg
http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuw47/Number_4_Shavings.sized.jpg

I have a much better understanding now of just how important adjustment of the blade, mouth, etc., is in the overall performance of a plane. As you can see, I spent a bit more time with the #4, toying with various adjustments. I have a LONGGGG way to go before I can make those wispy shavings. But I had to start somewhere.

Thanks again to everyone for their help. And please feel free to throw more advice my way if you care to.

- Marty -

[Mike Holbrook]

Sorry to be late Marty, but yes mineral spirits gets it off pretty quick. I have used WD40, because I prefer to limit my inhalation of mineral spirits, it works but slower. I have some blade cleaner that works well too.

Nice shavings, what fun. I think you will get better results once you at least hone the micro bevels a little. I have been regrinding all my bevels on the Tormek, with the mind set that it will make them easier to maintain in the long run. Actually I think they will perform the same if I just do a little fine honing on both sides of the blade and make sure the plane mouth is flat & smooth.

I think someone described the LV's aptly above as almost sharp. Almost sharp is very good for a new plane though.

Those are beauties, I am sooooo jealous!

[Michael Gabbay]

Marty - Congrats on the planes. You'll love them. I try to hang out at the LN booth as well. Those guys are a wealth of information.

As far as cleaning the oil film, just use mineral spirits. You should also leave a light coat of oil (camilla (sp) ) on them to protect from rust. Any light weight oil or wax should work.

I always tune my blades even if the manufacturer says that they did. LN generally ships without the secondary bevel but after 5 minutes you will have razor sharp tool. I only have bought scrapers and spokeshaves from LV. It looks like yours have a nice secondary bevel but a touch up would not hurt.

Mike

[Marc Hills]

Marty:

Oh man, those LV's are lookin good! First, very good digital photography, expecially that 3rd shot showing the microbevel. Yeah, you can improve those edges, but as Jerry suggested, first get a feel for them now before you change them. That's your standard you want to beat every time you sharpen the blades.

Don't get all bent out of shape if your first attempts to sharpen the blades actually makes them worse. It takes a while to get a feel for sharpening.

That oil will come right off. You can wipe off what you can with a rag or paper towel and remove the last of it with Simple Green or one of those citrus based cleaners. Watch yourself handling those loose blades though, that's the only way I've ever really got a bad cut with a plane!

My guess is that aside from final honing, those planes won't need any tuning, just adjusting the blade for depth of cut and parallelism, both done with those nice Norris style adjusters. Maybe the first time you really sharpen the blades after they get dull, you can flatten the backs. I know of no way to tell whether they're already flat except by going through the exercise and examining the pattern of scratches.

Just read the Hack book and start making shavings!

[Marty Walsh]

Marc and Mike,

Thanks for the responses. I spent a few more hours last night playing with my new planes. I now have a huge pile of crude shavings, and a somewhat thinner chunk of red oak on my little bench.

As many have said, the mineral spirits did a good job of getting the oil off. But, as you should be able to see in the sixth pic I posted, there's a nasty film of some sort on both of the blades. The mineral spirits did nothing to the film, and since these are still brand new, I'm reluctant to take anything else to the blades to get them clean. The 'film' almost looks like some sort of plating that's coming off. At least that's what it would look like if it were happening to a chromed part on my Harley. Any suggestions?

My guide arrived today, (kudos to FedEx for delivering it in the middle of a snow storm!!), so I'll be off to the shop as soon as it heats up. I have to admit, I'm worried about screwing the blades up, since I'm a novice at sharpening. I paid really close attention to the LN guy at the show, and hope that I can at least duplicate his technique. I suppose if all else fails, I get a new blade from LV.

Thanks Marc, those pics were taken with my Nikon. Photography is another hobby that drains my bank accounts. I always believe in getting the best equipment when I decide to do something, which is why I chose to go with LV (since LN was out of stock).

Well, off to the shop to (hopefully) make my shavings thinner and not screw up my blades.

- Marty -

[Mark Stutz]

Marty,
I, too, was worried about ruining something when I started down this slope. I've figured out that when it comes to sharpening, your first few attempts may be less than successful, but you can't hurt anything! Just go for it! The worst case scenario I can come up with is sending your blade to a fellow creeker to redo the bevel! :D

[Marty Walsh]

Mark,

Leave it to me, I found a way to badly hurt the blade in my new #4...:(

I'd take a picture and post it here, but I'm so disappointed, I can do without the ridicule right now. My problems started when I followed the directions on the guide and set it to exactly 2" from guide to blade edge, assuming this would give me the 25degree angle I needed. I eyeballed the fit, but should have carefully checked before I took blade to stone. Either LV didn't use 25degrees, or the guide is off. I wound up using my Norton 1000 stone to create a bevel greater than the original. Once I realized what I had done, I decided to turn the stone over and finish this new bevel on the 220 side since it was taking forever to finish this on the finer side.

Well, having never used a waterstone before, I didn't realize how quickly the rougher grit would get out of flat. By the time I realized this, it was too late. The blade edge had become convex. I wound up putting the new bevel on only about the center 80% of the blade. (I think the blade was frowning from being abused...)

Not being sure about how to properly flatten the stone, I decided to switch back to the 1000 side and try to flatten things out. Big mistake....BIG mistake! All that did is make my butt sore from sitting for over an hour while I tried and tried to fix my mistake. In the end, all I did was get a really really nice surface on the center 80% of the blade.

I became so frustrated that I decided to move on to the 4000 and then 8000 stones just to be able to try the pseudo-sharp blade.

In the end, I did indeed make MUCH better shavings on that piece of red oak on my bench. But it won't smooth the board, since the blade isn't flat.

Know what I'm doing now...? Looking for the best deal on the Tormek! I don't think I'm a waterstone kinda guy...:mad:

Starting back up the slope....
- Marty -

[Mark Stutz]

Marty,
I can truly relate to your frustration, but don't give up on the stones, and don't rush out to buy the Tormek just yet. I have a Tormek, and it does do a good job of establishing a primary bevel. I thought that my blades were fairly sharp right off the wheel, until I got some waterstones to go up to 8000 after that. Keep the stones! ;) Flatten them with sandpaper on glass or a granite lapping stone, and keep at it. Remember, I told you the first attempt or two would be fruatrating--DAMHIKT! Yes the Tormek might be faster, but the stones will do the job.

Mark

[Marty Walsh]

Mark,

Too late. I found the Tormek for 20% off and placed my order. (Instant gratification is going to be the death of me! :eek: ) I read a bunch of postings here and elsewhere and realize that my stones will give me 'the best' edge, but at least the Tormek should give me a readily reproducable useable edge. Right now, that's more important to me than having a glass smooth edge.

I've read about flattening the stones with sandpaper and want to try it on a 2" thick piece of granite I have left over from when I built my kitchen. What grit paper would I use for the various stones? Or do I use the same for all? And can I use regular PSA paper I already have in the shop, or does it have to be wet/dry or something special?

Now I'm off to find some postings that describe the sequence for sharpening, (bevel, MB, back, etc.). I'd like to try this again while I wait for the Tormek to arrive...assuming I can flatten the stones and fix my major screw up...sheesh...

- Marty -

[Mark Stutz]

Marty,
You don't need PSA paper. I think the guy at the LN booth at the show was using 220 for all the stones, though 150 or 180 is a little faster. Just spray the paper with water and the surface tension will hold it in place. Though I haven't tried it yet because I dont have an extra 1000 stone, he rubbed the two flat stones together to "deglaze" them. 1000 on both the 1000 and 8000. He said it was just faster than allowing the iron you are sharpening to do it.
You will like the Tormek, though there is also a bit of a learning curve :( with it too. And if you venture into the spinning world it will do a great job on the gouges! I know I know--electrons being sacrificed and all that :eek:

Mark

[Mark Riegsecker]

Marty SAYS "Too late. I found the Tormek for 20% off and placed my order."

I love this guy! :D I can't wait to see his newly equipped shop in a few weeks:eek:

[Mike Holbrook]

I am chuckling here a little Marty, I have been going through the same thing. I thought I had a pretty good idea about how to sharpen things but those plane blades are a different story.

I think your problem is those micro bevels. They drove me nuts the first few times. The Tormek want solve the problem either as it grinds even faster, but I think it will help you remove the mistakes and be more confident of the angle you are grinding, assuming you are getting the kit with the Angel Master (just a plastic jig to test angels). LV also sells a little jig that works with their guide to set angels before you start grinding.

I think one of the probelms you are having is the micro bevel ends up being your final edge angel. I imagine you are trying to grind a 25 on the larger surface which is actually more like a 23 (+2 degree MB=25). I don't think you can actually measure the MB as it is just to small.

Mark gave me a hint that helps a great deal. Take a sharpie and color the entire bevel before you start to sharpen. Hit a few licks then look at where the bevel is missing color. You can adjust where grinding occurs a great deal by adjusting where you are making pressure on the plane blade. If the plane blade is not perpendicular to the guide then your entire front bevel will be at a new angel. It does not take near as much error as you might think to get a badly skewed bevel angel, so check and adjust very early. With the Tormek you can color the edge check everything, mount the blade and then rotate the wheel by hand a few times to see where the grinding will happen.

Unfortunately once that micro bevel gets messed up (which is very easy to do very fast since it is so small) you sort of end up having to regrind a whole new bevel (very time consuming even on a Tormek) or learn to live with a weird looking front bevel. On the bright side don't worry so much, you will soon find that you can grind away on that blade for hours and hours even on a Tormek without removing enough blade to cause any sort of fatal error.

Although it may look uggggly the plane blade will function well if you just grind a new bevel, however micro, and flatten the back of the blade well. It is only where those two edges meet that determines how it cuts. The weird larger bevel may have a minor effect on chip/shavings but I do not think it will be a major factor. You sound kinda compulsive like me though, so you will probably spend some hours regrinding the entire surface just because you can't stand the appearance:)

One other suggestion. Go to the Tormek web site, I believe you will find most of their sharpening concepts there, then you will have a better idea of where yo want to go when the Tormek arrives.

http://www.tormek.us/index_usa.htm

I think it even allows you to download all or parts of the manual as PDF files. Tormek does not use micro bevels which you may find to be a simpler system to start off with.

Good luck sharpening your sharpening skills!

[Marty Walsh]

Compulsive? Me? Never!!! :D


If the original bevel was at 23 degrees, that's where my problem started. And then it got compounded by working the blade on a non-flat stone.

I've ordered the Tormek with the entire accesory kit, so I'm hoping I'll have what I need to get this task done. I'm really anxious to get working with these planes, and not just to make a kewl looking pile of shavings. I have a big project on hold until I can either get a handle on planing...or go back to the black and green.

I"m really not worried about the learning curve on the Tormek. People told me the same thing about the D4, (gasp...electron created dovetails!:eek: ). I opened that box, and two hours later was using the D4 to create half blinds on 28 drawers. Came out gorgeous.

Well, off to read the Tormek manual which I've downloaded. And then back out to the shop later to flatten my stones and try not to screw things up worse.

(Something tells me I should just go ahead and order a new blade for my #4...)

Sheesh...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty SAYS "Too late. I found the Tormek for 20% off and placed my order."

I love this guy! :D I can't wait to see his newly equipped shop in a few weeks:eek:
Mark,

You don't have any idea how true that statement is. I'm actually starting to think about buying a new house so I can get a larger dedicated shop. Will this ever end? :confused:

- Marty -

[Mike Holbrook]

I have two irons for both my LV planes now. I am grinding the second blade at a higher angel for harder tougher wood. The second blade for the LA Jack comes ground for a York Pitch (of course that was a 47 with a 3 MB).

I hit a screw with my LA, Jack yesterday. I was reducing some cabinet doors in the Knee walls of the room we just finished for my daughter. Scratched my new plane bottom up, guess I get to do a lap job now too, sheeeeeeeeees!