Block Plane User Woes

[bob blakeborough]

So I am finding that while I really love the way my LV LA Block Plane performs, my finger that rests on the mouth adjuster knob always ends up severely cramped and even locks up. If I end up doing any sort of longer term work with it, the pain I get from the position I have to keep my hand in becomes quite unbearable. Is this a common problem for people? I know I have some arthritis that is probably a major contributor but I am wondering if switching up to a different style plane to do the same jobs I use my LA Block for will help?

I have read that some people will use a No.1 Bench Plane like a Block Plane and have been seriously eying up the LN No.1 for the job. I am hoping the change in hand position due to the handle shape and front knob will assist in my comfort. I guess the only way to know for sure is to try one, but being in Calgary Canada, I know of no place where I can test drive one so I was wondering if there are any Creekers out there who actually use this plane and not just have it as a cool collectible (because lets face it, it is most definitely a cool little plane! lol! :p)

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Bob

I've never experienced this, but here isan idea: add the tall knob accessory .... http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=41715&cat=1,41182,41189,32685

206025

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If you've got the Lee Vally plane I'm thinking of, this might be a nice option for you:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=41715&cat=1,41182,48942

With my block plane, I do find if I rest a finger on the adjuster knob, arching over the plane and holding it with one hand, it does often get cramped. I find using any tool in one position or grip too long will eventually bother me to some extent, some tools more than others, so I try and vary my grip as I work, and take breaks as needed. If I'm using too much pressure, these things are worse. I try to use as little as is needed. A lot of times with a block plane, I don't even really need pressure on the toe if I'm cradling the whole tool in my hand right.

Of course, a lot of times you do need pressure on the toe to get and even cut or keep a surface from getting out of flat - whenever I can, I find a more comfortable way for me to do it, rather than pressing down with a finger on the adjuster knob, is to use a two handed approach - my right hand lightly holds the plane and really only applies pushing force, and my left hand holds the toe down, and I use my thumb to apply that pressure. This works particularly well when working on the edges of narrower pieces.

Edit: looks like Derek beat me to the punch in the accessory kit, and included a photo.

[bob blakeborough]

Hmmmm... I never considered this. The knob on the front looks promising, but that rear knob looks kind of bizarre for a hand position. There is a Lee Valley store locally so at the very least I can go test run it and see how it feels. Thanks for the kick in the pants with the accessory option Derek! I should have remembered that was an option...

[bob blakeborough]

I do find that the two handed approach feels much better for sure, but there just seems to more often be those times where I need the other hand to help stabilize the piece or what have you (small box trying to clean up glued DT's etc) and I end up cursing my bad finger joints. That is why I was considering the No.1 because of the size I could still hold it in one hand (potentially) and work it with the different hand position compared to the LA Block. Maybe I am just trying to find myself an excuse to pull the trigger on the No.1 haha! Well this time I am going to control myself and research it out a bit more before buying anything...

[Derek Cohen]

Bob, there is also the high tote version, which I have. It creates a very nice #3 sized smoother. I have often used the block plane with just the high knob, and that works well ...

206026


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Griggs]

I assume the cramp your speaking of is when you're using it one handed. It makes sense that your finger would lock up (mine does sometimes), because all the downward force on the toe is coming from that one finger. This probably isn't an issue specific to the LV, and would likely happen with any standard size block when you apply that much pressure with one finger for an extended amount of time. My guess is this wouldn't happen with an apron plane or LN 102/103 since they are so short that you could probably get enough pressure on the to just by pressing down with your palm.

BTW - I have the front knob (but not the tote) for my LV LABP. While these are made to convert it to a smoother I know there are a lot of guys who like to keep the front knob even in block plane mode. I put mine on occassioally if I really need to apply some pressure, but even two handed I actually prefer the regular brass finger rest. This is really just personal preference but there are two specific reason why I prefer the brass finger rest:

1. I mostly use the plane for edges, endgrain, and trimming. For these tasks I"ll rest the thumb of my left hand in the brass rest and reference my remaining fingers off the board in order to help guide the plane (much like jointing and edge) - with the knob on I have to stretch my thumb up higher to do this - it works fine and is by no mean uncomfortable, but I just find doing this with the brass rest more comfortable and controllable.

2. When I do use the plane on face grain it's usually to work a small area and I don't find that switching out the knobs to be enough of a benefit in these cases to bother to do it. Also, when using the knob my front hand blocks my view of the mouth - not a big deal but I like to be able to see the shavings come through the mouth.


While the LV LABP is very versatile I think it's at its best as a regular low angle block - it really is a phenomenal tool n this respect alone. All that said, I like having the knob on hand, and one of these days may buy the tote and an extra blade to make a mini smoother.

Anyway, the knob is only like $10. Perhaps just get that to start and see how you like it before dropping an extra $30 on the tote.

[bob blakeborough]

I should backtrack a bit and say that I realize it isn't the LV LABP specifically that is an issue as it really is a great little plane, but more that it is the size/shape of a block plane in general that isn't feeling good in my hand in certain working situations, those being when I have to use it one-handed instead of 2 handed... That is why I was thinking No.1 as it is small enough to hopefully handle single handed and still function well. I am going to stop by Lee Valley however and see if adding a knob makes it feel better for just $10.00...

That being said, I find myself "desiring" a No.1 now just because I have been thinking about it so much! lol! "M U S T RESIST TEMPTATION!!!"

[Jim Koepke]

The #1 is not a low angle plane. I do often use it one handed.

Finding the right block plane to fit your grip is the more likely solution.

LN does some shows in Canada. Their list for upcoming events is not out yet.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

The #1 is not a low angle plane. I do often use it one handed.

Finding the right block plane to fit your grip is the more likely solution.

LN does some shows in Canada. Their list for upcoming events is not out yet.

jtk

I'm wondering if this less of an issue of a block plane that fits his hand and more of an issue of a block that is specifically designed for 1 handed use. While the LN adjustable mouth block/ Stanley 60 1/2 are noticeably smaller and lighter than the LV, (and for most people probably a bit more comfortable in one hand), this is more due to the width than the length - the LV is only 1/8" longer. Most standard sized block planes (in the 6"-7" range, are designed for both 1 and 2 handed use and will still require him to extend his pointer finger and put a lot of pressure on it. It seems to me that the solution is some type of apron plane ( LN, LV, Stanley or whatever) in the under 6" size that will prevent having to put so much on the finger since more of the hand would be near/over the toe.

Just a thought.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Bob, are you finding discomfort almost immediately, or is it something that takes a little while in use? I get this discomfort, (but probably not as bad as you describe) and whenever I feel it coming on, I take that as a sign that this operation is taking long enough that I really should figure out how to clamp or secure the piece and work two handed.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm wondering if this less of an issue of a block plane that fits his hand and more of an issue of a block that is specifically designed for 1 handed use. While the LN adjustable mouth block/ Stanley 60 1/2 are noticeably smaller and lighter than the LV, (and for most people probably a bit more comfortable in one hand), this is more due to the width than the length - the LV is only 1/8" longer. Most standard sized block planes (in the 6"-7" range, are designed for both 1 and 2 handed use and will still require him to extend his pointer finger and put a lot of pressure on it. It seems to me that the solution is some type of apron plane ( LN, LV, Stanley or whatever) in the under 6" size that will prevent having to put so much on the finger since more of the hand would be near/over the toe.

Just a thought.

Chris,

You are spot on here.

My use of block planes is often one handed without a finger pressing on the front.

Finding planes that fit your hand and allow gripping without fatigue or debilitating joint contortions may be why there are so many different sizes and styles of block planes over the years.

I find the LN #60-1/2 to be a better plane than the Stanley equivalents, but the Stanley models are a bit lighter and easier to hold.

jtk

[Joel Goodman]

The smaller LV apron is nice in one hand. LN also makes a small plane.

[Chris Griggs]

The smaller LV apron is nice in one hand. LN also makes a small plane.

I don't have one, but that's what I'm thinking too. I had a chance to try my LV LABP side by side with my friends LN 60 1/2 a couple weeks ago. Its funny, to me they feel very different when just holding them in one hand over nothing, but in use, when the wood is pushing back, this difference became barely noticeable (to me anyway) and in use I really couldn't say I preferred one to the other in either one hand or two.

However, from everything I've heard those little block planes feel very different in use and are just plain nice to have for one handed tasks - people often describe them as feeling like and extenion of you hand - this thread has reminded me how much I would like to get one... BLAST!!!

[bob blakeborough]

Bob, are you finding discomfort almost immediately, or is it something that takes a little while in use? I get this discomfort, (but probably not as bad as you describe) and whenever I feel it coming on, I take that as a sign that this operation is taking long enough that I really should figure out how to clamp or secure the piece and work two handed.

It happens very quickly. One or two passes no problem, but after probably 30 seconds of consistent work, the pain comes on quickly. It is far more significant in the finger I have on the mount adjuster for sure. Once I stop, it doesn't go away quickly either. The knuckle joints will often remained locked for a bit, and then it is sore there after. Some pieces just don't secure very well with the set-up I currently have. I hope to remedy that soon with a proper bench build with the right vises and clamps but as of now, it is what it is...

[bob blakeborough]

I'm wondering if this less of an issue of a block plane that fits his hand and more of an issue of a block that is specifically designed for 1 handed use... ...It seems to me that the solution is some type of apron plane ( LN, LV, Stanley or whatever) in the under 6" size that will prevent having to put so much on the finger since more of the hand would be near/over the toe.

Just a thought.

Another thought I will look into for sure... Thanks!

[David Keller NC]

It happens very quickly. One or two passes no problem, but after probably 30 seconds of consistent work, the pain comes on quickly. It is far more significant in the finger I have on the mount adjuster for sure. Once I stop, it doesn't go away quickly either. The knuckle joints will often remained locked for a bit, and then it is sore there after. Some pieces just don't secure very well with the set-up I currently have. I hope to remedy that soon with a proper bench build with the right vises and clamps but as of now, it is what it is...

Bob - While I have and use many block planes (largely of the LN variety, although a few of the British infill "chariot" type), what I reach for most often is a bronze L-N #2. I had one of the nickel-bronze L-N #1s, but I found it a bit too small to accurately grip. The #2 was much better, and still small enough to use on short box sides, chamfering jobs, and the like that's typically associated with block planes. That relegates the 60-1/2 or 103 to less-intensive jobs, and helps avoid the joint pain problem you're describing.

[James Taglienti]

The #1 size is, for me, more painful to use than a block plane. If i find myself using my block plane for long enough to cramp, i will switch to a 2 or 3 size, or simply hold the block plane with two hands.

[Derek Cohen]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by bob blakeborough http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1765425#post1765425)
I should backtrack a bit and say that I realize it isn't the LV LABP specifically that is an issue as it really is a great little plane, but more that it is the size/shape of a block plane in general that isn't feeling good in my hand in certain working situations, those being when I have to use it one-handed instead of 2 handed... That is why I was thinking No.1 as it is small enough to hopefully handle single handed and still function well. I am going to stop by Lee Valley however and see if adding a knob makes it feel better for just $10.00...

That being said, I find myself "desiring" a No.1 now just because I have been thinking about it so much! lol! "M U S T RESIST TEMPTATION!!!"



Bob

I do not understand the use of #1 and #2 planes for the typical block plane work, which is trimming. Seems crazy to me.

I suspect the issue is the width of the LV LA BP.

When I went out looking to buy a new "standard sized" block plane a good many years ago now, I was faced with the choice of a LV LA BP and the LN 60 1/2. I already had a LN #103 (common angle bed). The narrower #60 1/2 was a much better fit for my hand inspite of my paw being broader-than-average. I went for that. Never regretted it. Some years later LV brought out the Premium Veritas pair, which are the same width as the #60 1/2, and a better design.

There is a comparison of these planes here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasPremiumBlockPlane.html

The easiest plane for one-handed trim work is my LN #103. The LV Apron plane was not out then, and I think it is a slightly better design (with the straight sides). You should look at these as well. The common angle on the #103 excells at all-round work (edges and end grain).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Harry Goodwin]

I have a miller falls bock plane I was able to turn and install a knob . I also have the LN with a knob and like them a lot as I am older with hurting hands. The 1020 and 103 LN's don't seem to hurt but have a smallerr frame and thus lessweight. Harry

[Chris Griggs]

Hey Bob... I decided to do a little experiment tonight, and I might need to take back what I said about preferring the LABP w/o the wooden knob. I have a dovetailed carcass that was mostly trimmed up, but still had some marking gauge marks I wanted to remove. So I decided to go to work on these with my block using it one handed only. Sure enough after a few minutes of one handed planing my pointer finger got sore and cramped. I then decided to do the same thing with the wooden knob on, paying close attending to the comfort in that finger.

Guess what? No pain. This is counter intuitive to me since I've always felt the plane is more comfortable use w/o the knob. But what the wood knob does is change the way your pointer finger presses on the toe of the plane. With the brass knob your finger is bent in an arc and you need to push with (and therefore compress) your knuckle joints/muscles to put pressure on the toe. With the wood knob your finger sticks straight out the entire finger put weight on the toe w/o any compression on the joints.

Before you go drop a ton of money on another plane, give the front knob a try. I really think it could fix your issue. Of course, if you want to get a new plane anyway (who of us doesn't) then by all means do so.

[bob blakeborough]

Hey Bob... I decided to do a little experiment tonight, and I might need to take back what I said about preferring the LABP w/o the wooden knob. I have a dovetailed carcass that was mostly trimmed up, but still had some marking gauge marks I wanted to remove. So I decided to go to work on these with my block using it one handed only. Sure enough after a few minutes of one handed planing my pointer finger got sore and cramped. I then decided to do the same thing with the wooden knob on, paying close attending to the comfort in that finger.

Guess what? No pain. This is counter intuitive to me since I've always felt the plane is more comfortable use w/o the knob. But what the wood knob does is change the way your pointer finger presses on the toe of the plane. With the brass knob your finger is bent in an arc and you need to push with (and therefore compress) your knuckle joints/muscles to put pressure on the toe. With the wood knob your finger sticks straight out the entire finger put weight on the toe w/o any compression on the joints.

Before you go drop a ton of money on another plane, give the front knob a try. I really think it could fix your issue. Of course, if you want to get a new plane anyway (who of us doesn't) then by all means do so.

Wow Chris! I am greatly appreciative of the effort you went to for me on this! It may sound silly, but the Creeker community here blows me away... I see the nice stuff people do for each other on here all the time, and to have someone actually take something I am having an issue with, and not only give me some personal feedback as everyone here is awesome about, but to take the time and effort to actually work for an answer, well that is cool... For that I thank you!

Now as for your results, tomorrow I am going to head straight down to Lee Valley and buy me the $7.95 front knob and see if it works as well for me as your experiment indicated. I will absolutely come back and post my results and hopefully it will be able to help others with the same issue as me...

[Chris Griggs]

You're quite welcome - I'm happy to be able to contribute and am glad the info was beneficial.

Anyway, hopefully you'll have the same experience. Definitely let us know how the knob works for you. Regardless of what happens with knob feel free to buy an LN No. 2 so that you can gloat about it to us later:D. Lord knows I love a good gloat!

[glenn bradley]

I have the LV with knob and tote which I add or remove depending what I am doing. Part of the issue can be exacerbated by having a death-grip on the tool. Think golf; a lightly controlling grip maybe? You shouldn't have to hold on quite that tightly ;-)

[Zach England]

I always thought the Veritas block planes were unusually large. I much prefer my Stanley (60 1/2?) or LN (9 1/2?) or Veritas "apron plane" (lacks adjustable mouth--major drawback), but the different blades for the big Veritas come in hands--especially the toothed blade.

(I can never remember which bed angle is the 60 1/2 and which one is the 9 1/2.)

[bob blakeborough]

So I just got back from my local Lee Valley with the knob (and a couple other things as well that were unplanned... Damn you Lee Valley! lol!)... I will hopefully have a report for everyone this weekend...

[bob blakeborough]

So this weekend I had the opportunity to use my block plane one handed with the new wooden knob instead of the small brass one. It was a bit strange trying to get used to a new hand position, but once I got my head (or should I say hand) wrapped around it, everything worked quite well and I did not experience the same discomfort \i was with the small brass knob. Overall verdict is positive... I will continue working with it like this and see if it keeps working for me. Thanks for testing that Chris... Just what the doctor ordered!

[Chris Griggs]

So this weekend I had the opportunity to use my block plane one handed with the new wooden knob instead of the small brass one. It was a bit strange trying to get used to a new hand position, but once I got my head (or should I say hand) wrapped around it, everything worked quite well and I did not experience the same discomfort \i was with the small brass knob. Overall verdict is positive... I will continue working with it like this and see if it keeps working for me. Thanks for testing that Chris... Just what the doctor ordered!

Glad it worked out. I started using mine with the knob again since you started this thread. I never really kept it on before cause it does feel bit strange just holding it in one hand, but I'm finding it makes things more comfortable during extended use. Also facilitates pulling the plane when necessary.

[Harvey Pascoe]

You say "joints locked up", are you talking about cramps Bob? I get cramps in my right thumb, but also legs at night which is related to mineral deficiencies such as potassium.

When using my LN 102 the area around my little finger knuckle gets sore. I don't blame the plane, I blame getting old. Doesn't matter for me whether I use it one hand or two, its the squeezing action that causes this. I use this plane every day, sometimes a lot.