Poll: Do you "Push" or "Pull" ????

[joseph j shields]

Just quick poll.

When I got my first radial arm saw many years ago, I pulled the saw thru the wood.... just like my Dad taught me.

But I always fought the saw blade as it tried to "walk" up the wood. I also noticed the stress it caused.... and I believe this could be the cause of drift... the slow act of the saw going out of square.

I then remebered a guy telling me that in Europe, they push the saw blade thru the wood. This seemed to make sense since this is the way a table saw works.

So, I tried the "push" method and found it easier...I didn't have to fight the saw.... and it also eliiminted the drifting problem.

I have been using the push method for many years and I pleased with the results.

What do think???

Do you push or pull???

-jj

[Bart Leetch]

Well all the professionals I know pull it through & that is what the owners manuals instructions say to do.

I have my Dads 1967 12" Craftsman RAS which I have used since I was about 16 years old so about 36 years.

Dads 83 & he's been using the RAS since he was 16, about 67 years.

Neither of us have been hurt by using the RAS according to the instructions.

The manual states & yes I have the original manual.

"Note: When cross-cutting lumber the long end of the board should be placed to the left of the saw blade as the board is normally held by the left hand during operation. The saw is pulled through the stock - not pushed through."

I think they stated it very well.

So my advice to those pushing it through is READ THE INSTRUCTIONS & DO IT THE WAY THE INSTRUCTIONS TELL YOU TO.

If you don't have an owners manual buy, beg, borrow, steal but get one any way you can. Also there are a few books still out there about RAS's research the web & check with book vender's to see if you can get one.

There is no room for a I'll do it my way attitude with a RAS or any saw.

These saws don't care if if you have fingers, hands, arms or life.

If you push the saw through & get hurt its your own fault.


Considering all the above if you can't or won't operate the RAS according the proper instructions GET RID OF THE RAS.

[Ken Salisbury]

In order to be a boni fide member of SMC you are required by the Terms of Service (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/terms.php) to use a real first and last name. Please PM Jackie Outten (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/private.php?do=newpm&u=6) with that information and she will update your member registration accordingly -- Thanks in advance.


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[Bob Wilkerson]

Radial arm saws are designed to be pulled thru the work whereas sliding compound miter saws should be pushed thru. FWIW, most of the problems that occur with RAS's are the result of not being properly aligned and/or using a blade designed for a table saw. RAS blades should have a negative angle hook on the teeth. The other main problem is lightweight design as seen in the typical craftsman/toolkraft RAS vs. the older cast iron DeWalts or Delta turret design models.

Bob Wilkerson
Richmond, VA - DeWalt 14" GA owner who started with a Toolkraft (Wards) POS 30 years ago.......

[Joe Ruszczyk]

I agree with Bart! Us old timers were taught to pull the RAS into the wood! Now the sliding miter saws complicate the picture. Three weeks ago I added a Bosch 4410 to my shop, its instructions are just as clear as the ones Bart mentioned "secure the workpiece to the fence, pull the blade over the stock, start the blade and push the saw head back through the wood"!! I guess this wil lbe just another thing to remember in the shop, which saw am I using!

Great question by the way! :o

[Jeff Sudmeier]

I don't currently have a RAS but whenever I have used one, I have always pulled the stock through... High school shop videos showed it that way too :)

[Jim Becker]

I'm not sure how you could safely and/or easily setup for a cut and then push through a cut with a RAS. Unlike an SCMS which you can pull forward without engaging the material and with the blade stopped, any RAS I've ever used (I don't own one) didn't have instantanious height adjustment. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable doing setups with the cutting assemble pulled forward as it would just plain be in the way for lining things up, etc. So while I didn't vote in the pole since I'm not a RAS owner nor a RAS user, I'd have to say "Pull"...

[Lee Schierer]

In my experience, pushing the saw blade back through the cut causes more splintering on the top surface of the wood than the pull cut does. I always make my cut and move the good piece away from the blade slightly before pushing the saw back to the starting position.

I much prefer making cuts on a table saw for accuracy, quality of the cut and safety.

[lou sansone]

Although I am not a saw blade expert I thought that RAS blades have a negative rake to the tooth for the purpose of keeping the saw from climbing in the cut when pulling it through, and to allow for a small component of the tip force to be perpendicular (sp) to the face of the board. Reversing the way the saw was used would probably reverse that force and might
tend to lift the board off the table.

[Bill White]

Been usin' my Craftsman RAS since 1978. (Yeah, well it still works well, and it ain't no POS.) If you think about the physics, on a pull cut the blade is assisting in holding the workpiece against the table. On a push cut it tends to force the workpiece up. That's why everyone (except Bart L. and me) says you can't rip on a RAS. If you have the appropriate hold-downs you can do anything you want. As with any POWER tool------BE CAREFUL.
Cheers.

[Steve Clardy]

I PULL mine through. What a pain it would be to have to pull the saw forward, insert board behind blade, then cut. Way too much time, and it wasn't designed to PUSH it through. Just as well use a chainsaw if pushing it through is the idea. Lol

[joseph j shields]

Yes you are right.... it is somewhat of a pita....

But I find my saw stays square ... it doesn't drift.

Also, about blade geometry.... last year at the wood show, the guy at Forrest said their RAS blade (which I use) was designed so you can push it through the wood.

About tearout.... yes I do notice a little tearout on the top when I cut oak. No issue with cherry & maple. Its been so long since I "pulled", but don't you get a little tearout on the bottom????

-jj

[Bart Leetch]

Your suppose to allow the saw blade to cut into the table about 1/32" this acts like a zero clearance insert on the table-saw.

I believe you may not be controlling the speed of your cross cut when pulling through the material & this is causing you to get drift. Also are you using a full cerf or thin cerf blade.

Also on some saws there is an adjustment on the back side of the column that can be tightened up to adjust the slack or give that can occur between the column & the arm. This needs to be checked this may cause you what your calling drift. There is also an adjustment for heeling.

From the manual."heel left or right" If the saw blade does not travel in a line parallel to blade faces it has what is known as "heel".

Again read your manual & if you don't have one get one.

I am no expert on any tool but I can read. Since you are asking questions on a woodworking forum & assume you can too? Reading your manual is a very important step in making your equipment work properly & safely.

[Randy Meijer]

Someone please correct me if my thinking is wrong!! Because of the blade rotation, a table saw wants to pull the work down onto the table rather than lift it off of the table. That would also seem to be true for a RAS when being pulled through the work. On the other hand, if you push the RAS through the work, it wants to lift the work off the table.....not a good thing. I don't own a RAS and have rarely used one so I may be all wet; but it seems like pulling is the way to go which is what the manuals call for???

[Bart Leetch]

Thats right it will lift the material off the table.

[Rod Torgeson]

I don't want to get into any argument here, but I have own a RAS for over 20 years and have cut a lot of wood with it including dado's. Never have used it for ripping. Anyway, I have always PUSHED the saw through the work and for some reason it does not lift up the wood like some have mentioned that it might do. I used to cut all my pen blanks on my RAS. By that I mean cutting them to the same length as the brass tubes they are glued in. I had a jig for doing this. My RAS is an older model Black and Decker 10". I would like to emphasize again that it does not lift up the wood. Rod

[joseph j shields]

Hey Rod (Fellow Cheesehead:))

I've been "pushing" for years and have never had the wood lift up.

BUT, when I did "Pull", I often had problem with the blade "walking" up the wood and causing an "uncontrolled" situation.

Just my experience..... your mileage my vary:rolleyes:

-jj

[Bart Leetch]

The manual states…The saw is pulled through the stock - not pushed through."

It beats me some how people that use tools don’t read & follow directions & know more about how a tool is supposed to be used than all the companies that have manufactured the same type of tool. They designed & manufactured & tested the tool to find out what could happen & what the tool would do if it was not operated properly but for some unknown reason the person gives the impression that the manufacture is stupid & may get mad or blames the manufacture when they get hurt.

Please read your manual & get it through your head that just because that tool can be operated the way you want to operate it that there are reasons that the manufacture supplied you with the instructions telling you the safe way to operate it
The attitude I know the best way. To operate the tool just doesn't make it.

Joseph

I am not picking on you but I do care about you.

"I often had problem with the blade "walking" up the wood and causing an "uncontrolled" situation."

YOU ARE THE RESTRAINT FOR THE SAW. You need to get some scrap 2 x 6 or 2 x 8 & practice.

I have done this for so many years that I do it without considering what is happening.

OK I stopped right in the middle of this post & went out & made several cuts through a piece of 2 x 8 on the RAS, its a stiff armed movement where your elbow just starts to bend as the blade comes out the front side of the material all the movement up to then is in your torso with your upper body gradually turning with your right shoulder moving back as the saw comes forward. This isn't a complicated thing it just takes practice.


Please practice this procedure to become a safe wood worker & not a accident statistic.


I didn't manufacture the RAS & didn't write the proper operating instructions but I am a strong believer it operating any tool properly according to the owner/operator manual.

Pushing a RAS through is improper procedure & can cause injury to the operator. Remember it only takes a split second & you'll always wish you had followed the instructions as stated in the owner/operator manual. The manual for the RAS should also tell you how to make all the adjustments to make this tool operate properly. Remember this tool has a lot more adjustments than say a table-saw & they all have to be set properly to make it safe to operate.

With all tools & especially the RAS get throughly familiar with your manual.

I am a strong believer in keeping manuals in a way that will make the easy to to use, so that you will use them. The left notebook has manuals for hand held electric tools as well as things like dovetail jigs etc. The right notebook is floor model tools.

[Randy Meijer]

Since there seems to be a big difference of opinion here. I would like to here what a manufacturers rep has to say, first hand. Anyone here know one or have a good enough rapport with a company to get them to comment on the issue???

[Bart Leetch]

Since there seems to be a big difference of opinion here. I would like to here what a manufacturers rep has to say, first hand. Anyone here know one or have a good enough rapport with a company to get them to comment on the issue???

The manufacturer's have already stated in print in the owners/operators manual that the RAS is to be pulled through not pushed through I think that should be first hand enough.

When the facts of what the manufacture states in the manuals is the right way to operate a piece of equipment are known & it has been a fairly well established fact that this is how the equipment has been operated safely for many many years I don't see where opinion even enters into the picture.

Lets face something there are a number of us older woodworkers out here that have operated the RAS for many years & know that pulling through the material is the right way to do it. Now the SCMS has come out. I believe this has muddied the waters when it comes to the understanding of how the RAS should be operated to be safe. I understand that there isn't as many RAS in use today as there used to be but this hasn't changed the fact that the RAS was designed to be pulled through the material.


Yes I know I'm hard headed. BUT when it comes to operating all tools & especially the RAS I'll alway preach read your manual, opinions don't count, safety, safety, safety.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Hey Rod (Fellow Cheesehead:))

I've been "pushing" for years and have never had the wood lift up.

BUT, when I did "Pull", I often had problem with the blade "walking" up the wood and causing an "uncontrolled" situation.

Just my experience..... your mileage my vary:rolleyes:

-jj

JJ, rod is from Appelton WA, not WI :) Darn it!! I thought we had another cheesehead on the board at first too! :)

[Bart Leetch]

I don't want to get into any argument here, . I would like to emphasize again that it does not lift up the wood. Rod


I don't want to get into any argument here either. But would like to emphasize it only takes once & then its to late.

[joseph j shields]

:rolleyes: OOOPS

Sorry Rod.... Didn't mean to call you a Cheese Head :)

If only I could read :cool:
(Hey WI ---- WA whats the difference)


Jeff thanks for the tip ..... Cheese Head
..... Where is Arena????

-jj

[mike lucas]

Since there seems to be a big difference of opinion here. I would like to here what a manufacturers rep has to say, first hand. Anyone here know one or have a good enough rapport with a company to get them to comment on the issue??? Mr. Sawdust stated in his book to always pull the motor head through the wood. And he knew as much about radial arm saw`s as anyone on the planet. The Author`s of every radial arm saw book I have readhas said this very exact thing. And that is 7 of these books I have read. Some have even went the extra step to tell the readers, to never try pushing the motor head back toward the fence.

So when every specialist says to do it that way, every manufacture, and nearly all woodworkers, oh, and my shop Teacher even said it like 100 times, I'd have to say that it can't get any clearer then that!

[Rod Torgeson]

Joseph.....Actually I was born in Clear Lake, Wisconsin. I won't say anymore about RAS.

[Randy Meijer]

Bart:

I'm not questioning "WHAT" the manuals say, just would like to hear the "WHY" behind it from the guys who wrote the book. I, as most people, do a lot better when I understand the reason behind something rather than just blindly following a rule.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

My Dad first introduced me to the radial arm saw when I was about 12 years old in 1958. My job was to "help" him. I read a very good Sears book about the RAS and practiced under his watchful eye. We have always pulled the blade into the work.

The secret to the whole thing has been mentioned briefly. Use a blade with NEGATIVE HOOK ! It makes all the difference in the world. There has to be a reason that manufacturers say pull other than pure coincidence. It works better this way!

Having taught woodworking since 1969, I have read many texts and books on the subject. Never have I seen the push method advocated for general use. I am not scared to have a junior high student, with proper instruction and demonstration, use a RAS. The danger zone is the area directly in front of or behind the blade. Proper use of jigs and/or fixtures make the properly trained user a safe user.

Personally I would much rather see a properly trained teenager use any machine than an adult who choses to violate safety procedures because they "have a better idea". I have seen cabinet makers use the RAS and leave the saw extended to the end of the arm instead of returning it to the back of the table. Being a "professional" does not always mean doing things the correct way. How many pros have you seen not have a guard or splitter on their table saw?

[Randy Meijer]

Would someone explain what "negative rake" is and why it is necessary to have a blade with negative rake on a RAS??

[Bart Leetch]

Randy If you have a compound miter saw it should have a about 5 degree negative rake blade. If you have one look at it then look at a blade used on your table-saw or circular saw. The negative rake helps make it so the saw isn't so aggressive in pulling its self into the material.

I took some pictures but its hard to see the difference in a picture but I'll post them anyway.

The blade on the left is my CMS blade with a 5 degree negative rake. The one on the right is a standard rake for a table-saw.

[Randy Meijer]

Thanks for the pictures Bart. That helped a lot. My "shop" consists of a table saw and a drill press for building dinky little household projects. I'm not a sophisticated woodworker, just trying to learn a little bit about RAS. I actually came to SMC to learn more about my real interest which is turning pens and the FPP. I'm building a composter for the G/F right now. Amazing what you can do with a table saw and a little skill saw!!!

[Ron Jones near Indy]

Your explaination of hook (rake way used incorrectly in my post :o ) and photos did the job. The hook angle of a tooth relates to its position to the center line of the blade.