The Beast bites back.

[Bill Wyko]

Well, I got started on an 8lb burl for my beast over the weekend. I wanted to save the center for a lid on another piece so I was cutting in at a 45 degree angle to save the center for a cap. Unfortunately there was a knot I couldn't see. I had plenty of room for the tool to fit. My parting tool caught and literally snapped in 2. Since I had plenty of room, I tried with my bowl gouge and snapped it off at the handle. At this point, needless to say, I'm pissed. I grabbed my Glaser 15V and finally motored right through the knott. It made me realize it really is worth it to just buy the best tools and never look back. Having a metal handle really makes all the difference. When I looked at the Crown Powder metal gouge, I realized that there's almost no wood surrounding the tool. It really didn't take much to snap it in 1/2. You may have heard the old saying "Money is only a way of keeping score" If that's the case, I'm loosing the game now.
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2109/11908737/23875803/398206898.jpg
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2109/11908737/23875803/398206888.jpg
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2109/11908737/23875803/398206885.jpg

[Andrew Kertesz]

At least with the bowl gouge you can purchase a handle and the tool is still useable. Doesn't look like it was inset into the handle very deep either. From the picture it almost looks like the wood around the tool was like a tenon inserted into the handle.

[Bill Wyko]

I agree, I was surprised that it only went into the handle a little more than an inch. IMHO that's why it broke there. From now on I'm just going to spend the money and buy the Glaser tools. If either of those pieces were to have come full circle, there would be no face shield that would stop them from going right through and into my mug or anywhere else in my body. Definitely could be lethal. Plus I just love the Glaser stuff.:D

[Andrew Kertesz]

I have the Glaser 1/2" 15v Oval bowl gouge and as I rookie I can tell the difference when using that compared to the other lower quality tools I have.

[Scott Hackler]

Holy moly Bill! That crown gouge was not done very well in assembly. The shank should have had 2" into the wood for stability, but I am guessing from the size of the handle that that particular tool was made for smaller stuff and of course less stress. Glaser makes (what appears to be) some nice stuff, but I dont think that the other brands are too slack (even with wood handles)!

I once broke a spindle gouge at the shank / handle point, not because it was a piece of junk.. but because i was using it for a bowl gouge and had the whole darn thing off the tool rest while hollowing! DOH! :)

[Bill Wyko]

The PM tool is a full size tool, the parting tool was a bit smaller. Either way though, this could have sent me to the hospital. The Crown Pro PM tools are incredible, they stay sharp for a long time but if they are going to join it to the handle like that, I'm not comfortable with that.

[curtis rosche]

can we see a picture of what you were turning? what speed where you at that it had the power to do that?

[David DeCristoforo]

Breaking the parting tool must have been scary. Having the gouge break right after that would have sent me into the house for the rest of the day. Maybe even the rest of the week! I have to second (or is that "fifth"?) the thought that the gouge only penetrating the handle to a little more than the depth of the ferrule is cheesy and an invitation for exactly what you experienced. Trying to save a few inches of steel?

[Bernie Weishapl]

Dang Bill that is a bummer.

[Curt Fuller]

Be careful Bill. When you're breaking tools you're coming awfully close to breaking Bill!:eek::eek::eek:

[charlie knighton]

scary, glad you came through it, a knot huh, i will remember that, wonder what it would have done to a band saw?

[Jim Burr]

I haven't read thru the previous threads, but I'd be inclined to go with faulty wood. Pitch pocket, wind shake, something. I've had a few catches on my old CSUSA set...like 10 yrs old and never had a break. Since the weak point in a tool is usually the wood, I'd look at that first. Hope that helps and glad you made it out in one piece!

[Harvey Ghesser]

"It made me realize it really is worth it to just buy the best tools and never look back. Having a metal handle really makes all the difference."

I agree with what you said about the Glaser tools. When we turn wood we are at risk. We should at least minimize our chances of injury. I believe that the well engineered Glaser tools not only help mitigate injury but certainly allow our creativity to shine.

Glad you're safe, Bill.

[Jeff Nicol]

Well I guess I will be the one to say it, I don't think either of those tools were meant to be used as you were using them. When you cut in at a 45 with th parting tool all it takes is a little bit of dust and chips to jam it and get a giant catch! You found this out the hard way, for that type of cutting you need a longer handled tool to be able to control the leverage and preferably with a wider cutter compared to the blade/bar to allow for chip removal. Then when you chose that gouge to slide it into a slot at a 45 in a burl, well that is just asking for trouble, no matter if the shaft was only in a 1 1/2", to snap it off like that the leverage and force applied was enormous!

So in my opinion it is not the tools fault at all and it was operator error, you are very lucky that you were not hurt and that is the main thing. But it should be a lesson to everyone, that tools are made to be used in certain applications, and as Scott said when you use them for something they are not designed for, bad things happen.

I guess this is the "Tough Love" thing my Mom always told me about, stay safe everyone,

Jeff

[Joe Landon]

Life is too short to be using inferior tools. I am glad you were not injured, Bill. Tools simply should not fail like this.

There is more to the Glaser tools than the metal handles. I have used other tools with metal handles, but they were only as secure as the couple of set screws that "secured" them into place. The Glaser tools are extremely well engineered. The length of the handle, balance, weight, anti-vibration, position of grips, shape of handle, geometry of the blades, composition of metal, treatment of metal,...

In my honest opinion, they are the best tools available.

[Thomas Canfield]

There used to be a lumber yard in Tyler with sign that said "Good wood properly installed has never failed". You have to think about that some (since most is usually not properly installed, connected, or finished), but it also applies to tools. I saw a Thompson bowl gouge at local club meeting last week that had snapped due to a catch, but owner admitted that he was stretching its working limits when he had a catch. We all need to take a look at how we use our tools from time to time and especially after a near miss. I like my Crown PM bowl gouges.

[Harry Robinette]

I would like to see the wood, know the speed and how far the tool was over the rest. I agree the Crown looks like the tool was not set well in the handle. But when you brake the steel I think you might have been doing something wrong and if so you need to correct this before you get hurt. Braking tools is VERY dangerest so please find out what happened before we loose another wood turner.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...this is the "Tough Love" thing my Mom always told me about..."

Well.... somebody had to say it...

[Reed Gray]

I am with Jeff on this one. You were reaching out too far off the tool rest for those tools, which is why they snapped. A coring tool would have been the right tool to use. Maybe you have a friend who has one.

robo hippy

[Bill Wyko]

Actually I was only 2 inches into the piece of wood. The Pro Pm is almost 2 feet long. The parting tool was probably too short though. My tool rest has some very small scars in it. I think when I was mmoving it across the tool rest it may have skipped a tiny bit but it never should have done that. I looked over thwe handle of the Pro PM and it's very straight 1/4 sawn material. I look for that in the handle of a tool before I even consider buying it. The cut had plenty of room for the tool as well. I cut in with a V shape specifically to prevent catching. This particular burl is very hard wood and the knot was almost like a rock. My Glaser went right through it with ease. The ProPM should definitely have the steel inserted much farther into the handle. That's just a poor design. I do have to say though, the Powder metal is awesome though, takes a long time to dull.

[Jerry Wright]

Tough Love is for turners and toolmakers!

Anytime there is a shop accident or near miss in an industrial setting, there is always a judgemental rush to decide whether man or machine (tool in this case) is at fault. Generally the cause is somewhere in between. Assuming that more care by the turner would have prevented it or that had he been using another brand of tool, it would not have happened doesn't help us learn something from the incident. These are usually just hopeful opinions. Noone knows that they are going to have an accident the second before it happens and none of us know when our next one may occur. That is why we must minimize our risks by learning as much as we can from every situation.
What can we learn from the broken tool that we can use in our own turning?
- Awareness that tools can and do break - theyare not indestructible. That is why we all know to keep the rest close to the work, and try to avoid hanging the cutting tip well away from the rest.
- There are times when this is very difficult. Hollowing a deep vase, or parting off a large diameter turning pushes this.
- After all else has failed (e.g. using the best shape of tool rest for the job, selecting a large section tool instead of a small thin section, parting off with a saw instead of a tool, thinking about the cut overnite, .......) and we decide to go ahead –
- Then we must be certain we are standing outof the line of fire with our best personal protective equipment.

What can we learn from the snapped tool handle at the tang that we can use in our own turning?
- Many of us make our own woodturning handles. How do we decide how deep we should insert the tool into the handle?
- While the tool that Bill photographed appeared to have a very shallow insert depth (my opinion) I decided to do a little"research" and see what others do.
- Alan Lacer has published several articles on making your own tool handles. He has been around a long time. I found an article from American Woodworker 06/24/10. His guideline is that for round tools, the tool insert depth should be 1/4 to 1/3of the length of the tool - so on a 10" long steel tool, insert 2.5 to 3inches.
- I also took a look at a large set of clear plastic handled 30 year old Craftsman screw drivers which I own, to see how deep the steel is inserted into the handle. They have different insert depths dependent upon tool diameter and shank length, but all are approximately 22-28% of bladelength. For example, the largest - a 5/16" square, 12" long blade is inserted 2-3/4". The insert depth on Bill's tool appears to be 1/6 of its length, if that.
The last thing that we should learn from Bill's episode is that the total tool is the sum of its parts and is no better than its weakest link. So, if you buy a great blade and install it yourself in a poorly fitted handle, you have a poor tool. If a great looking blade and a great looking handle are poorly connected, you have a poor tool.
Be safe. Sometime I’ll share my “18 stitches in the chin flying cherry story” from January!!!

[Bill Wyko]

The burl I was working on is about 8 inches in diameter. I would post it but I'm in a contest where it has to be posted there first. The piece I was trying to remove is approximately 4 inches in diameter. So my point here is, it doesn't have to be a big chunk of wood to cause an incedent like this. Keep in mind, the protrusion didn't have to be very much. I was approximately into the wood 3 inches. I agree though that the parting tool should have been a longer tool. BUT, that's what a parting tool is for, cutting deep enough to part one piece into two.
The crown tool, which has been my favorite tools until I got my Glaser, had always served me properly. I still have a David Elsworth Pro Pm that is an incredible tool and almost all of the rest of my tools are Crown as well. My DE Pro PM is longer than the one that broke though. The bottom line is, it is imperative to examine the piece of wood, not only when you begin, but also as you dig deeper into the project. Thje knot inside the the burl was quite unusual, almost had a rust in it but no metal was found.
One more note, when a company makes a tool, it is their responsibility to consider any way it might be used right or wrong. In my opinion, we both must hold responsibility to some extent. As far as the handle goes, I really feel safe with the Glaser handle. The tool goes about 3 inches into the handle with a sleeve that transfers the vibration uniformly to the handle. Tools that use set screws transfer the vibration through the points of contact. My concern would be eventual digging into the tool and the screws getting loose. The only tool I have with set screws is my Clark hollowing system. I don't get enough use out of it to experience such a problem but I have experienced it with other types of tools.

When it comes down to it, just use every precaution when making risky or unfamiliar types of cuts. The parting tool that broke off could have ewasily come at me like an arrow. Most likely no shield or apron would stop that tip from going right through anything. I'm just thankful I didn't get stuck.

[Bill Wyko]

Just measured the Pro PM. overal length 19.5 inches. The handle is 12 inches and the tool was inserted 1-3/16 into the handle and only 1/2 inch past the brass collar. Thickness of the wood surounding the tool was only 3/16" I'm positive, had the tool been inserted even an inch more, this would never have happened.

[Curt Fuller]

Bill, I would agree that 1-3/16" isn't much steel in the handle. I've never taken any of the handles off any of my 'store bought' tools so I can't say how far the tool is inserted. On the tools I use that came unhandled I usually go for about 2.5 - 3" in the handle. But that said, even with a metal handled tool like the Glaser, if you're getting a violent enough catch that broke a wooden handle you should probably take a pause and think about what you were doing when it happened. If the wood was that hard, if there were hard knots, those are all things you have to consider when you're stretching the limit of reach over the rest. It's all about leverage and anytime you're getting to the point that the tool has the upper hand you taking too much risk and you need to figure out a better way to do it. I know you're an experience turner and I'm not trying to sound like I'm lecturing you, I'm just concerned about your safety.

[Paulo Marin]

Bill, I would agree that 1-3/16" isn't much steel in the handle. I've never taken any of the handles off any of my 'store bought' tools so I can't say how far the tool is inserted. On the tools I use that came unhandled I usually go for about 2.5 - 3" in the handle.

Curt,
The interesting part on your post is your statement that when you make your own handles you make sure you insert the blade between 2.5 and 3" inside the wood. If you did that out of common sense or research, I must say that you are right on the money. Remember that we are subjecting that piece of steel to high speeds and abrasive contact. I am sure we have ALL experienced severe catches that surely made our legs tremble. On a metal handle, things become a little more difficult for the tool to "rupture" the wall surrounding it.Chances are the blade would have snapped before the handle would rupture.

What must be considered is that on a "high production level" when a manufacturer is making thousands of tools, it is not impossible for the depth where that blade was inserted to have been overlooked, which then becomes a lapse of quality control on the part of the manufacturer.

Looking at the level of work and the time Bill has been turning and his description of how it happened, I feel pretty positive that it was NOT a "woodturner error". On a severe catch it will always "give" at the weakest point. Try to imagine this:

If the tool was locked on a vise and you inserted the blade on a long pipe and pressure was applied at the tip, I assure you it would have broken exactly where it did. Luckily Bill was properly protected and the tool did not come back at him.

Again, this is my personal and professional observation!

Glad you are fine Bill!

Paulo :cool: Marin

[Jim Heikes]

My friends

Being a novice I am trying to learn as much as I can. First of all I want to say that I am not questioning nor criticizing any techniques or tool makers. Everything I've read concerning parting tools is that the tool should be addressed at a 90 degree angle to the wood. Is this an over-simplication or proper use of a parting tool.................Jimmy

[Bill Wyko]

I do have to say though, when I had to continue the cut with my Glaser, the strength and the way the cut transfers to the handle and the ballast of the heavy weighted handle made all the difference. Until you've used a tool with a weighted handle like my 15V, you just haven't experienced a situation where you can tell you would have had a catch but because of the ballast, it just cuts right through what would have been a tool breaker but instead, turned into a smooth cut. You will feel a little nudge as it goes through but it has never grabbed anything yet.

I really hate to sound like a spokesperson I just like my fellow turners to enjoy their experience like I do. Even my finest Crown ProPM David Elsworth grind doesn't hold a candle to my Glaser. This thing is the tractor mower and Ballerina of turning tools.:D

[Harvey Ghesser]

.



"I really hate to sound like a spokesperson I just like my fellow turners to enjoy their experience like I do. Even my finest Crown ProPM David Elsworth grind doesn't hold a candle to my Glaser. This thing is the tractor mower and Ballerina of turning tools."


Bill, I agree with you wholehartedly about your thougths and feelings about Glaser tools. This is one thoughtfully engineered tool! And part of our enjoyment of the craft of woodturning is being able to talk about the tools we use, and the joy they give us through their use. I don't think you sound like a spokesperson at all! I sound the same as you, because of the joy that Glaser tools give me and like you I just like my fellow turners to enjoy their experience as I do. This thing is the tractor mower and Ballerina of turning tools.:D:D:D

[Bill Wyko]

Thanks Paulo. It didn't dawn on me til later what could have happen if that tip would have been a projectile. Literally a compound bow shot to the body. No face shield, no safety glasses and no shop apron would have stopped it. Too many time when we have an "Almost" situation, we just go about our day. I think it's important to consider what could have happened and really address the issue. In this case, better tools. (Shucks:D)

[Chris Barnett]

Wonder where I can have my Ellsworth bowl gouge x-rayed to determine if it is safe to use. Heck, would like to get them all x-rayed. The depth shown in the broken tool is insufficient for all but being in pictures...certainly not turning. What kind of wood is the handle?

[Steve Kubien]

I am a little confused... Were you trying to remove a small "core" from this 8" Burl?

[Bill Wyko]

I believe the handle is what ever they make a Baseball bat out of or Oak. I too have the Elsworth Pro PM. I was wondering the same thing.
As far as saving the core goes, I'm using it to make a burl lid for another Vessel. I'll post the 2 pieces after the contest I'm in is over. In the end I turned the burl down to 3/32" thick. It's so thin I can almost see light through the grain.

[Barbara Gill]

When I bought the Kelton ER Handle set I was so impressed and I liked it so much I cut the handles off of almost all of my round shanked tools. I was amazed at how little wood was around some of the steel.

[Chris Burgess]

Wow that is terrible. Thank the Lord you werent' injured.