Transition to Hand Tools...Sell the Power Tools?

[Peter Pedisich]

Hi,

I am posting this question in this forum, as I want the hand tool perspective in feedback.

Over the past 1-1/2 years, I've been slowly transitioning to hand tools. I have built a tool chest which works well for me, and this fall I'll be making a bench similar to this by Bob Rozaieski:
http://www.logancabinetshoppe.com/shop-projects.html
I am running out of room in my half of a 2-car garage which I must vacate from December 1 until mid-March, during which I'm in the basement. I could never add the new bench now.

My question is: Should I sell my Table Saw and my Festool MFT? Has anyone done it with success?

The 'house' projects I do are the typical trim carpentry type - plywood cabinets, paint grade trim work, etc. And it's these that I use my table saw on. I use it for ripping, but rarely for crosscutting, which is done on my MFT.

The reason I'm thinking of selling these is they take up too much room in my garage shop - every step I seem to knock something over - not good for my middle-age blood pressure.

Thanks for your thoughts, opinions, advice, etc.

-Pete

ps - these pics are older, when things were neater and less cramped.

[Mike Henderson]

I suppose it depends on how committed you are. I use power tools for stock preparation because it takes a lot of time and sweat to prepare stock by hand. Also, while you can rip stock by hand, it's a whole lot easier and more accurate to do it on a table saw.

For quite a few years, I worked in a shop that was 10' by 11' (110 sq feet). I had a table saw, planer, drill press, bandsaw, lathe and CMS in that space. For stock preparation, I'd hand plane one side of a board flat, then run it through my planer. When I did a big glue up, I had to do it someplace other than my shop, although I lived with some fairly big projects in the shop for a while.

For a bench, I worked on the outfeed table on my table saw. And my router was built into one wing of my table saw.

So my advice to you is to keep your stock preparation power tools.

Mike

[Peter Cobb]

From what I've read:
Keep the bandsaw, planer and drill press (according to Chris Schwarz) most of the other stuff can be done by hand.
If you're lacking the conviction, maybe you could try putting the tablesaw under a tarpaulin for 5 or 6 weeks and see if you REALLY miss it.
On the other hand the MFT looks like an Überclamp, if space allows keep it as an assembly table... If in time you find yourself using it less and less let it slink out on it's own (and get back some of the $).
Hope that makes sense.
Cheers,
Peter

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If you're anything like me, the moment you sell a powertool you haven't used in a year, you'll find a reason you really wish you still had it about a day later.

If you're making a bench similar to Bob's Nicholson-esque design, it's less of an issue, but beginning to tackle a workbench, I wish I still had some of my powertools. Of course, I never had anything as large or as fancy as any of your tools.

[Trevor Walsh]

I just ripped and cross cut all the material I need for a mahogany writing table with handsaws, it's not that bad. Surface jointing the first side with a jack and jointer plane isn't bad... it's looking at the heavy 1/4-5/16" on the other side that I have to come down to that looks painful. It took about as long to thickness one short style as it did to to cut the top boards, back apron, drawer fronts and divider, side aprons, and top and bottom front rails.

The only tool I wished for right about then was a lunchbox planer.

[Chris Griggs]

The only tool I wished for right about then was a lunchbox planer.

Right there with ya. I have a Dewalt job site tablesaw and a Hitachi router in a rockler table that I hardly use anymore and have considered selling. However, the main power tool I've never owned and constantly wish I had more than any other is a thickness planer. Follow that with a bandsaw (mainly for resawing), and drill press and I'd be set.

I don't agree with everything the Schwarz says, but his power tools for the hand tool user recommendations are exactly what I constantly wish I had.

[Jim Matthews]

That's excellent, right there..."try putting the tablesaw under a tarpaulin for 5 or 6 weeks and see if you REALLY miss it." -PC

We do the same in my house with kid's clothes - stored in a sealed box with only a date on the outside.
If it isn't opened in a year - we didn't much need what's inside.

+1 on keeping any work surface that can be neatly folded.

My 2 cents - see if you can find a decent swap for the table saw. The Festool (http://festoolownersgroup.com/login/) stuff seems to have some cachet...

[Bob Smalser]

Have fun hand-ripping those half-dozen 12-foot trim boards and a couple sheets of CDX when you reroof your house and discover some rot. Or getting out those 16-foot, 3-bevel, hard oak shear guards by hand.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9745605/397629853.jpg

Do you think all you'll ever do in your woodworking career is admire your tools and make the occasional pile of shavings?

[David Weaver]

Fold up the MFT and keep it. If you don't have a BS, that's the only thing I really kept and use. I did buy a track saw in case I need to rip panels, but I haven't used it yet.

I got rid of the 50 inch bies equipped tablesaw and its huge footprint in my 2 car garage shop, and I don't miss it at all. There are times where I'd like to rush things along a little, but usually, I'd rather rip a few boards by hand, and thus far, I have been thicknessing by hand for a while -but I will admit I don't like to do it - it's dummy work, but you can't quite go to sleep or you'll pass your gauge line. At some point, I will start using the LB planer again, but I'd rather just go to building tools and quit dealing with anything that needs to be thicknessed.

If I ever get a TS again, I'll either have struck it rich and have a ton of space, or I'll get a heavy contractor's saw that can fold.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I do my joinery by hand unless it's a case of having to do a large number of multiples. I prefer to rough surface my boards with a planer and finish with hand planes or a scraper. Similarly I try to do most grunt work with the appropriate power tool. I also find that when I need to knock off a quick carpentry project for the house, garage, or yard that I'm more like to get started and avoid my usual procrastination if I know that the power tools will allow me to accomplish the task without it becoming a major project. I save my Neander efforts for things that I want to do rather than for those that just have to get done. To me it is all about convenience and completing a necessary task to allow me to use my leisure time for the fun stuff like making furniture or tools. Neanders have traditionally described power tools used for rough or basic operations as employing an apprentice. This is a pretty good analogy when productivity is the goal. While I prefer to use hand tools, I would not give up my power tools.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I've never liked using a planer or jointer, therefore never bought either; however, I love the CMS I won, and the table and band saws. I'm more ambiguous on the foot powered mortiser, could probably lose it with impunity. I've got a tiny drill press which is more or less junk. But then, I do a reasonable amount of carpentry work, seldom feel like hand sawing 3/4" plywood (although I have, and it wasn't too bad given the LV plywood saw. My real problem, even after I get my larger, improved workshop on line, is where to put them. For the moment I plan to roof a large deck area in front of the shop, leave them more or less outside, which allows me to avoid messing with dust collection.

So I agree with Dave's philosophy, keep what power you need for carpentry and repetitive tasks.

Pam

[Rodger Kanis]

Peter,

I'll echo part of what the other Peter said...
Planer and drill press, keep. They are small and mobile, and do what they do well. The planer can save you a lot of rough stock prep work for your hand tools, unless you wish to go all hand-tools-only based on principle.
Table saw: Sell it. It's the biggest space hog and you have other tools to do the jobs, according to your list, especially if you have one of the Festool track saws. It can handle your plywood and carpentry needs, and with some clamps even cut the thin trim strips you need. I think for what you do, given your space constraints, this is the most expendable tool in your garage right now. Useful, absolutely, but not necessary for what you do.
MFT: Keep it. It's multi-functional, good work space, and it folds up for storage. You already cross-cut on it anyway, and probably sand and route on it, too. It can follow you into the basement easily, or hang on the wall in the garage.
Router table: Not sure, as I don't know how much you use it, according to your post. If desperate for space keep the top and clamp it to a work surface for table routing (or build a box it can sit on then be broken down, will help control dust and noise), then store it when not in use. That will free up more floor space.
Jointer: Since you do a lot of hand work, you probably don't need this either. Again, do you use it, and do you have viable alternatives?
9" band saw: Do you use it? Keep it, as the footprint isn't very big, and it's probably useful. If you don't use it, get rid of it. You can always find another that is bigger and more versatile if you need one again someday. I'd lean towards keeping it, though, but again, only if you use it. If one of those Systainers contains a jig saw, you may not need it after all unless you are resawing boards for thicknessing.

Those are my quick thoughts, probably worth exactly what you paid for them. :)

Good luck and have fun!

-Rodger

[Zach England]

Sometimes you don't need to do woodworking--you just need to build stuff. Last week I had to make some ceramic molds out of masonite and MDF. I don't want to use my hand tools on those materials. I guess it depends on your needs. Cutting the metal roofing for my chicken coop? Table saw. Making plexiglass storm windows? Table saw.

[Chris Griggs]

Sometimes you don't need to do woodworking--you just need to build stuff. Last week I had to make some ceramic molds out of masonite and MDF. I don't want to use my hand tools on those materials. I guess it depends on your needs. Cutting the metal roofing for my chicken coop? Table saw. Making plexiglass storm windows? Table saw.

That's exactly why I haven't made decision to sell my little DW745 (as much I want to sometimes). I know that if I sell it I'm going to wish I hadn't sooner or later - in fact even if I had a nice stationary ts, I wouldn't be surprised if my a portable TS would still have a place for home projects someday. I may never feel a need to by a cabinet saw for woodworking (although I'd be lying if I said I didn't sometimes wish for one), but I think I will always have use for a ts of some type.

[David Keller NC]

Hi,

The 'house' projects I do are the typical trim carpentry type - plywood cabinets, paint grade trim work, etc. And it's these that I use my table saw on.

I think you've already answered your question.

But if you're in doubt, I would suggest thinking long and hard about what species of lumber you want to use, and whether restrictions on those choices would be maddening, or no big deal.

The reason I say that is:

Hand-ripping one or two 12' long, 7/8" thick Eastern White Pine is no big deal.
Hand-surfacing one or two 12" wide boards of 5/4 EWP into 7/8" thick, 4-square parts is no big deal.
Hand-ripping one 12' long South American mahogany boards is a medium deal.
Hand-surfacing one 12" wide 5/4 board of S.A. Mahogany to 7/8", 4-square is a medium deal.

Hand-ripping 12, 12' long, 7/8" thick EWP boards is a big deal.

Hand-ripping just one 12' long, 8/4 thick Hard Maple board is a huge deal.
Hand-surfacing a 5/4, 12" wide Hard Maple board to 7/8" thick is a huge deal.

If you're young and spry, than those last two you may look at as a free workout. Over 40? You tend to look at it as a 3-day incapacitating back & shoulder ache.

[Augusto Orosco]

I think you've already answered your question.

But if you're in doubt, I would suggest thinking long and hard about what species of lumber you want to use, and whether restrictions on those choices would be maddening, or no big deal.

The reason I say that is:

Hand-ripping one or two 12' long, 7/8" thick Eastern White Pine is no big deal.
Hand-surfacing one or two 12" wide boards of 5/4 EWP into 7/8" thick, 4-square parts is no big deal.
Hand-ripping one 12' long South American mahogany boards is a medium deal.
Hand-surfacing one 12" wide 5/4 board of S.A. Mahogany to 7/8", 4-square is a medium deal.

Hand-ripping 12, 12' long, 7/8" thick EWP boards is a big deal.

Hand-ripping just one 12' long, 8/4 thick Hard Maple board is a huge deal.
Hand-surfacing a 5/4, 12" wide Hard Maple board to 7/8" thick is a huge deal.

If you're young and spry, than those last two you may look at as a free workout. Over 40? You tend to look at it as a 3-day incapacitating back & shoulder ache.

Could a circular saw with a good blade substitute for the occasional rip? Or would it be to much to ask from it to tackle a 12' rip of 8/4 hard maple? (never tried this with mine, so I have no idea)

[David Weaver]

A bigger bandsaw rips it with ease, and isn't so awkward as long heavy board on a TS. Takes up much less floor space, too, and ripping short thick pieces is no big deal.

[Jim Koepke]

Nothing wrong with power tools.

I do not use my hand tools on most sheet or ply material.

That is where even I like a power saw.

Even set up the router to cut some long dados when needed.

If you can keep them until you want to raise some money for a new tool, that is more my way of doing things.

jtk

[Peter Pedisich]

Excellent points all, thanks very much!
My issue (can't call it a problem having too many tools!) is that I have to share space and move for part of the year.
I'm going to digest this info, and draft a plan view of my shop to reconfigure.
I guess I'm more reluctant to give up my table saw than my MFT. I may sell the MFT since I worked for years with a table saw and no MFT, but I could not do the other way 'round.
I could then make a ply or mdf top for my TS to become a very heavy and stable assembly table...

[David Keller NC]

Could a circular saw with a good blade substitute for the occasional rip? Or would it be to much to ask from it to tackle a 12' rip of 8/4 hard maple? (never tried this with mine, so I have no idea)

Sure, but it would need to be a good one. I've burned up a motor in a cheap one by trying to do that once.

[Dave Lehnert]

In my opinion a Shopsmith is the perfect tool for the primary hand tool woodworker. Has all the benefits of power tools but stores away in a compact space.

[Jerome Hanby]

I second that suggestion. I wouldn't use my SS for an everyday table saw, but if I only needed that function occasionally, I could live with it. The other functions are top notch IMHO.


In my opinion a Shopsmith is the perfect tool for the primary hand tool woodworker. Has all the benefits of power tools but stores away in a compact space.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Could a circular saw with a good blade substitute for the occasional rip? Or would it be to much to ask from it to tackle a 12' rip of 8/4 hard maple? (never tried this with mine, so I have no idea)

I've had decent luck doing this using a well made fence and making a cut from each side - doing it in one pass is a lot to ask of a lot of circ. saws.

[paul cottingham]

I'm dumping my chopsaw, just bought a 1920's era mitre saw. lowered the blade on my tablesaw and now use it mostly as a stable work surface. If I had a decent bandsaw, it would be gone.

[Bob Smalser]

Could a circular saw with a good blade substitute for the occasional rip? Or would it be to much to ask from it to tackle a 12' rip of 8/4 hard maple? (never tried this with mine, so I have no idea)

Circular saws don't like ripping long, thin stock. Like half-inch cedar trim 12 to 16 feet long.

While I have no problems living with only a high-end contractor's saw on a folding stand, doing without the minimal contractor's saw, 14" band saw, 6" jointer and 12" planer would reduce my production to the point of becoming a sick joke.

[geoff wood]

power tools are like apprentices--ill speculate and say, that before power tools, a master woodworker probably wasnt flattening boards all day, thats what an apprentice does. Ive seen finish carpenters scribe down 16' pieces of baseboard (on a very crooked floor) with absolutely no gaps whatsoever, with just a circular saw. now im not that good, i have to keep a block plane on me to get closer to the line afterwards. thats my philosophy in my shop as well, try to get done what i can with power tools to save time, then work with hand tools, with no compromise to the finish piece.

[Tom Vanzant]

Peter,
I share a garage with two cars year-round. What can be on wheels, is; what cannot be on wheels is against a wall. I am lucky that the garage is 2 1/2 cars wide and has an extra three feet of depth.