New planer

[Gregory King]

Plan to buy new 15" planer in late fall. Appears my heart is set on my first Powermatic tool. Simple question. Is the 15"- 15s dependable? I know the Bird Shelix is the better all round spiral version. But the cost is more than I plan to spend. I have read the reviews on most of the competition. I've read all of the horror stories from damaged crates to dented parts. Suspect the same holds true for all of the suppliers. Any thoughts from 15s owners. Greg

[David Kumm]

That is really not a true spiral but three flexible knives that spiral around a cutterhead. Check with others as to how hard it is to set those knives. I would look for a good used planer, shelix or straight and if straight and I didn't like the finish, save up for a byrd head and retrofit. there are lots of good 13-15" planers around. The old PM 100 is way better construction wise. If you want spiral, find a way to get a true spiral- new or used. Dave

[Paul McGaha]

I have a Powermatic 15HH. While it is a good planer and I'm very happy with it I really dont know that there is enough of a difference in planers to not save a fair amount and go Grizzly. I've never seen a Grizzly up close but it looks to me to be so similar to the PM. I've noticed that there are a lot of happy Grizzly planer owners here at the creek.

Whatever you choose I would suggest you go with a Byrd head as I think it is easily worth the price upgrade.

I know this dosent answer your queston about a Powermatic 15S.

Just my $.02

PHM

[David Kumm]

Greg, just saw you are in canada. Keep your eyes open for a General 130. That 14" planer may be the best small planer ever made. Pretty rare here in the US but if one comes up-grab it. $2000 is a lot to spend on a Taiwanese 15" without the advantage of the byrd head. Small planers were often well cared for so you should have options. The real bargains are the old 16-18" PM planers. Dave

[Gregory King]

David, the Canadian made General 130 is probably the cream of the crop. At least in its size category. I had checked it out, but a price tag of $5900.00 +tax is a bit much. Probably never wear it out though. We do have the King Canada line. I'm told it ranks at or around the Grizzly line. Their spiral 15" version comes to $2150. +tax. Although I'm only 50 minutes from one of the Canada /U.S. borders, the idea of buying a good used one thru the Craiglist in the States might be difficult since I would have to buy sight unseen. Scary thought. Won't happen. Still lots of time, I'm in no hurry. Good used, sounds like the best approach.Thanks guys for the advice. Greg

[David Kumm]

Good luck Greg. A used planer is less scary than a used jointer so you may get lucky up there. I agree that crossing the border is a pain. I bought a used performax just beyond the border from WI and the customs and duty stuff added about $250 to the regular shipping cost for a 400 lb unit. Check woodweb and owwm.org for listings. Pictures and telephone help with the warm fuzzies or run for cover feeling. Dave

[Gregory King]

David, I will add that buying new in the U.S. is as easy as one, two. three. Bought my DP from Woodcraft last winter with duty, still cheaper than any price up here. Won't hesitate for a second to go that route on a new one again.

[Mark Ashmeade]

I have a 15S. I bought it a month or so ago used. Cleaned it up, and put new blades in. All is good. It's a world apart from the screamer lunchbox I used to have. Changing the blades was a bit fiddly. Bordering on a PITA. But then, so is pretty much any planer. On the positive side, it doesn't need any setting of the blades, it it is a fixed alignment. There's just a lot of gibs and screws to do. Having bought it used, I didn't have the alignment tool, but I suspect it wouldn't have helped. I was struck by the solidity of its construction.

Overall, I'm very happy with it. I paid less than half the new cost, and it's as good as new. The Grizzly seems similar I agree. It doesn't have the DRO, which I'm not sure is that big of a deal. One feature I miss from my screamer though is the "Indi-cut" feature on the RIDGID R4330 it replaced. That was a little gauge that indicated how much you were about to plane off. Very useful.

One thing I have noticed is that it appears to be identical in every respect to one you could buy today. It's eight years old though. Even the DRO is identical.

I could probably sell my 15S and get into a brand new Grizzly. I don't think I'll be doing that though.

[John P Clark]

I have a 15s and have run about 4000 bf thru it and it works great. Knife changes are not that bad and with sharp knifed, it cuts very well. Wish I had the Byrd head, and I am looking for one for the right amount. My PJ 883 has a Byrd head and I have been really happy with the cuts on the jointer with this head. I mostly run white oak, hard maple, walnut and cherry thru the planer. My only complaint is the cost of new knifed and they can be resharpend a couple of times

[Dirk Lewis]

Greg,

Have you found a planer yet? If not take a look in the classified here as there is a fella south of the border from you selling a real nice General 130 for a good price.
The seller (Jud) is super nice and very accomodating as I had been talking with him about buying it when its bigger brother (a 20" General 330) practically fell in my lap this morning - it was local and a great price so I bought it and had to pass up on Jud's nice 14" unit.

If you haven't found one yet, drop him a note - he's a good guy!

Link to Jud Dinsmores planer (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?172307-General-130-14-quot-planer)

Cheers,
D

[David Kumm]

I would take that over a new PM any day- spiral or not. The general is the top of the food chain. Dave

[Gregory King]

Dirk and Dave, thanks, just read your notes. I had seen that General early in the week. Wish I could get it in the $1600 range, but it's worth every cent he's asking. Especially, when one looks at the new price of it. Kind of gave up on the PM one and shifted more toward to the Grizzly GO453PX . Its again, not a General but I can stay a little handier to my $1600 target. Plus the fact that I do have my heart set on a spiral cutter head which I think is the best invention since sliced bread. I know this isn't our 'for sale section' but since you folks know what I'm looking for please keep me posted in this thread if there is something in my range around town. In closing, some may have noticed that I've gone from a member to a contributor this week. Here's hoping that more follow. This is an awesome site to meet great folks and share valuable ideas. None of us want to lose it. Please donate. Greg

[jud dinsmore]

thanks for the thoughts, fellas. i figured i'd reply since it is my machine we're talking about and i have a decent amount of experience with this planer (and woodworking). my perspective comes from having a small woodworking business so please keep this in mind.

regular knives vs. spirial knives - there are advantages and disadvantages with both systems, and this has been well documented. my general and its replacement, 20" mini max, are both straight knife machines (albeit, the mini max has a tersa head). i do have a 12" spirial head jointer, so i'm pretty well versed in both arenas, and for me there isn't much difference between the two. cut quality is a push and i almost never adjust the way i feed a board through either system and don't typically encounter any tear out. i'm using all sorts of domestic and exotic hardwoods and don't use much figured wood (where the spiral knives can do a better job without tear-out). also, i'm never going from planing to finishing without spending a good amount of time sanding, so the potential difference in cut quality is not important. related to this, it takes longer to sand out the scallopped surface left by the spiral knives than to sand out nicked knife marks on straight blades. set up time and cost are also a push for both systems.

i did hear from another interested party (that ended up buying a general from a school) that his newish powermatic 15hh wouldn't hold its settings and the last straw was when it became untuned in the span of 100 bf. with the general, i tuned it two years ago and have never had to do this again. something else to consider.

just my thoughts. good luck with your purchase.

[David Kumm]

Jud, I agree with you. Although I have both a byrd and an ITCH head planer I am not negative on straight knife jointers or planers. The spiral heads are a great way to compensate for planers that are not built any where near as heavily as of old. The pressure bar and chipbreaker configuration on the old planers in addition to the vibration dampening of cast iron allowed for great finishes with traditional knives. There was also an art to grinding them according to the cutterhead diameter with a secondary bevel that helped with the tearout. I don't like changing knives and never got good with my grinder on my old planer but realize the issue was with me rather than the equipment. Dave

[Rick Fisher]

There is a used General in Vancouver ..

http://www.coastmachinery.com/wood/planers-jointers/general-130-1.html

Funny.. its $2200.. Which is decent, but its also PH3 .. which may not be ideal for all.

I would buy the General from Jud over a Grizzly or new Powermatic. The Grizzly or PM may be cheaper, but if you buy them new, your gonna lose 40% - 50% day one.. The used General will probably slowly improve in value over the next decade.

The General is a life machine.. Unless its abused, it will still be running strong in 30 years..

I have a General International 20" which IMO is no different than the Grizzly 20" or PM 20" .. Its worth about $1200 less than I paid and has only been used for hobby woodworking. Its what I consider an " adequate " machine, but I would probably not buy it again.

If you bought the General used, you could wait a while and then put a Byrd head on it when the times where right. Byrd will make a head for anything if you send them the spec's ..

I have a Griggio PF-310 Jointer with a Tersa cutterhead which is used along side my General International planer.. The difference between the two is night and day. Planer is the ugly assistant.

Pay a little more for a high end used machine and you end up with a high end used machine .. Buy a low end new machine and you end up with a low end used machine.

[David Kumm]

Rick, You speak my language. Dave

[Gregory King]

Thanks Jud. That's what&nbsp; I like about this site.&nbsp;I want&nbsp;to hear the pros and cons before I make a purchase. We have at my workplace a new 20" Canadian General spiral cutter head planer which was purchased approx. 1 1/2 years ago to replace the previous&nbsp;&nbsp;1960-ish 20" Canadian General knife cutter head which went to auction. 3 phase obviously, so&nbsp;I wasn't interested in pursuing. We have found that the new spiral has given us great results with very little sanding. In fact, for our purposes,&nbsp;a 120 grit disc&nbsp;in a ROS&nbsp;allows for the painters to proceed with staining and or laquer&nbsp;&nbsp;as required. From what&nbsp;I am hearing,&nbsp;the only sanding done by our paint shop is between coats of laquer. Usually a total of 5-6 coats&nbsp;per project. And although it wouldn't be regarded as&nbsp;I would say "piano cover" finish it is still pretty close to awesome. Bearing in mind the fact that 5-6 guys are sharing this planer, we have one firm rule. Everything&nbsp;&nbsp;that goes into the &nbsp;planer [pine, birch and red oak]&nbsp;is wire brushed on the faces, edges and ends&nbsp;. Obviously for fine particles of sand. As well, we have identified and marked visibly above the infeed table, one half for rough planing and the other half for finish planing. As&nbsp;95% of our rough stock is 8-10 in. wide.&nbsp;Works well.<BR>To close, its simply personal preference as to spiral versus knives. For any of us&nbsp;here and the cost of good woodworking equipment, every planer is capable of great results if the proper inspection and maintenance&nbsp;is kept to a high standard. And all of us share one personal goal. It's to get one&nbsp;heck of a deal on a reputable piece of gerat machinery!&nbsp;Thanks gang for your time. Greg&nbsp;&nbsp;

[Gregory King]

Sorry for the last note. Not sure what I did there. Maybe went off-line or something.

[jud dinsmore]

the new general 330 - did your company pay the $21k asking price (at least that's what amazon is listing them for)? this makes the $5-6 for the 130 look like a bargin. i wonder what makes this machine so much better that they can ask almost double a comparable planer by scmi, felder, sac, etc.?

i guess it all depends on what your company is doing that you can go directly to finish work from a spiral head. i see a lot of commercial woodwork that looks like this and you can see the ripples left by the inserts everywhere. same thing goes for parts that come off a molder without being sanded (my factory build cabinets features this).

it might work but sanding makes it look a ton better. also, for me, we're sending most of our stuff through our widebelt sander to get it to a desired thickness, so the condition off the jointer and planer doesn't matter (so long as there aren't nicks and a lot of tear-out).

[David Kumm]

It is an absolutely great time to be buying used commercial grade equipment. Kind of sucks for sellers though. My 299 ITCH still had paint on the chipbreakers and with a grinder went for $6500 delivered. It wasn't many years ago that the head alone commanded that price. Northfield still gets $20000+ for their planer though. So does Rick Fink at Oliver. Dust collection isn't too great though and a commercial shop has to worry about regulations but the one man shop or hobby guy has really great choices. Unfortunately nothing seems to be moving these days. My machinery guys tell me that the market for used is moving from the old US to Euro machines as that is what the younger woodworkers are used to- and they make good stuff. Dave

[Gregory King]

Hello again,gang. Just got home from the Harvest Blues and Jazz festival in my area. Awesome event. If you are ever up this way this time of year, take it in. Amazing collection of talent. Jud, you are smack on as for the pricing on the 20" General Canadian model spiral planer. When we priced that model from a local supplier, we were also looking to replace one of our old 1976 Rockwell Unisaw's strictly for the purpose to update. Now that I look back, I'm not sure why we made that move. Obviously, we went from a fantastic 3 phase to a single phase current model. Our only worry with the old one was that Delta might cease making replacement parts. Probably never happen. The arbor had a slight wobble in it which could have been replaced. I kick my ass for not putting a bid on it as it went to auction . Hindsight is 50/50 right? The only gripe that I have with the single phase is the initial start-up "bang" compared to the 3 phase "smooth as silk start" that most on here are familiar with. Anyhow, by price shopping for both the table saw and planer at the same time allowed us to save a bit of money. The 20" planer came in around $22 grand and we saved a tad more on the table saw. Most of the cabinet work we do is for office shelving and personal workstations that house computers. Basically Birch or Red Oak plywood with matching hardwood edges to compliment. Edging, stiles and rails, etc. And finally , for the last time, I repeat, it is simply personal preference. Knife or spiral. Both are fantastic. Your choice. Thanks Greg