Where can I find those Japanese wooden "nails"?

[Harlan Barnhart]

I've seen various youtube videos of Japanese furniture builders constructing drawer boxes with pointed dowels that are hard enough to hammer in a pilot hole. They seem to come ready made in a box. I have a project that will need several small drawers and I'd like to try something new. Anyone know of a source for these things?

[Chris Vandiver]

They are typically bamboo and most of those guys make their own. Of course you can make wooden nails yourself. A really tough wood like Black locust works well.

[george wilson]

Most likely they used those wooden nails because they were cheaper than metal nails.

[Harlan Barnhart]

I've done that with white oak but it's a lot of work. I'd like to buy a box of 100 made already.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I got some from Stu a couple of months ago, they're much like those used in the videos, pretty cheap, too, as I recall. Unfortunately I haven't had to chance to try using them yet.

Pam

[Jamie Buxton]

Have you considered Miller dowels? They may seem a bit modern, but they work very well, and you can get them in various hardwoods.

[Stuart Tierney]

I've done that with white oak but it's a lot of work. I'd like to buy a box of 100 made already.

I get them in bags of 20, you should use a properly tapered drill (or kiri, as in gimlet) and they're not hardwood and can't be used like nails, more like pins to hold things in place.

But they're nice. And they're not too expensive, but exxy enough to seriously consider making something to allow you to make them yourself.

(I'm working on that...)


Really, they're meant for use in the carcass of a small cabinet, where the wood is kiri, the really soft but strong stuff and used like 'Nahm' uses brads. They have next to zero shear strength, so you still need proper joinery.

George is correct, they were cheaper than metallic nails from when metal nails were like gold. There's a gate at the old Shogun's castle in Kyoto that's armour plated with nailed on dome like devices, and all iron hardware. Looks impressive, but when it was made it would have been the equivalent of a million dollars worth of metal, just in the gate. Throw in all the floors being nailed down with special cleats (nightingale floor, can't walk on it without it squeaking and it all still works a few hundred years later) and if you can get your head around iron being such a rare commodity, there's no doubt you're walking around in the house of someone pretty important.

And is often the case, several hundreds years of tradition unhindered by progress means folks still use the wooden nails. I'll try and find a better source for them, since they are quite nice to use.

No, bamboo pins aren't the same thing. Used them too, the tapered nails are different. Not better or worse, just different.

Stu.

[george wilson]

I was also implying that they might have a "cool" factor,but won't be as strong(or,as desirable to the ancients) as iron nails.

[glenn bradley]

Pencil sharpener. No, seriously. The hand crank kind.

[Mark Schreiber]

I believe they are made from bamboo. When dried, bamboo is extremely hard. You can find bamboo skewers at your local grocery store. Be extremely careful when running a plane over wood that has these "nails" because they can chip your blade.

[george wilson]

Not to confuse the issue,but there are different species of bamboo. I am not a bamboo expert,but Tonkin cane is the preferred bamboo for making fly rods. During the Vietnam war,scarce supplies of this bamboo in the USA were hoarded by fly rod makers. I have a small supply,though I haven't tried working it to see if it is harder than some other species.

My point is: There are possibly some species of bamboo that would make better nails than others due to their strengths and hardnesses. What species grow in Japan,I have no idea.

[Gary Curtis]

Make a phone call to Anzen Hardware, in Little Tokyo - Los Angeles.

(213) 628-7600 ...
These guys are the 'real deal'. Amazing selection of Japanese woodworking tools. Minus the snooty attitude of some tool vendors.

[Bob Glenn]

Most likely they used those wooden nails because they were cheaper than metal nails.

According to a recent article in Popular Woodworking, the Japanese are influenced by Shinto beliefs. It is thought wood and other objects have their own spirit. Apparently, they believe the spirit in the wood is not compatible with the spirit in metal. I'm not an expert, but I think lots of Japanese woodworking uses only joinery to hold things together. Just a thought.

[george wilson]

But,spiritual beliefs aside,iron or steel is stronger than wood.

[Sam Takeuchi]

But like mentioned, it's not meant to be used as substitute for steel or iron nails. If you see the video posted before, it's done on top of properly cut and glued joinery, as you can see here (http://www.wakagu-ohigashi.com/image/876.jpg). It is there for reinforcement, but I think before these nails fail, joint and/or wood will. It's not about Japanese joinery this or what. I don't think people who make furnitures here use nails of any kind to their joints and have problems, do they. Surely iron or steel nail will be stronger, but it's not the kind of strength required for the situation. This kiri wood is extremely light, even though it's a lot stronger than it appears, it's still doesn't boast the kind of durability other hardwood exhibit, by the time these nails fail, I think that's already past kiri's ability to really stay intact already. These pins probably provides added overall strength, but I really doubt using steel/iron nails will adds much more to the joints in question. Most likely wooden pins were utilized for economic reason and for the ease of procurement, but I don't think they were concerned about lack of strength of these wooden nail then. Traditionally these nails were 'cooked' to make them harder, but it was said that cooking it too much would make them too hard and they would damage the other wood. I don't know more detailed account on that, but that seems to be the wisdom.

As far as spirit and all that juju...never heard of that being the reason to use wooden nails. Traditionally people in Japan believed in spirits in a lot of things, and their cultures and customs evolved accordingly, but I must say, wood spirit and metal spirit not getting along is....I haven't heard of it. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense since there are a lot of things that are combination of metal and wood, including but not limited to Japanese sword, chisels, planes, hammers, various farming tools so on and on.

Since we are on the topic of joinery and such, here's joinery related tidbits. Sometimes I see people talking about complicated joinery of traditional Japanese buildings like shrines and temples and say how these are complicated for the sake of complicated or being so, they actually have a root in very realistic issue.
Complicated joinery seen in buildings and large structures like shrines, temples and traditional houses come from having to withstand earthquakes. Earthquakes are very frequent here (more frequent since March this year, but there are plenty even in quiet times). Old temple and shrines joints are designed with some wiggle room to off set vibration, especially top heavy structure like five story pagodas are pretty flexibly built, but they are interlocking so they don't come undone or loose. Nails and all that metal fixture are often too rigid for that sort of stuff. Most of these buildings have maintenance interval of about 150 to 250 years, I think that's a pretty successful design. While I don't think those large structure joinery directly translates into furniture and small item joinery, I suspect there's quite a bit of shared philosophy and rational between the two, that it's not always about the maximum strength to hold things together.

[Gary Curtis]

First off, Harlan - did you contact Anzen Hardware in Little Tokyo? What did they say about the wooden nails?

This thread got a bit off track, but I had some thoughts. I've seen Nijo Castle 4 times. The curious thing about Asian communities and their building methods is that, what looks shabby and impoverished to our eyes is often stronger than Western equivalents.

I was told by Tokyo residents during the years I lived there that the aftermath of American WW-II bombing raids left many bamboo and wood structures standing whereas brick and steel structures collapsed. In particular, steel girders failed due to the heat. In photos, the I-beams often droop like overcooked spaghetti.

Wood pillars and lintels will char from the flames, but the charcoal ash thermally insulates the wood beneath, preserving the structural integrity. I saw the same phenomena during the Malibu (California) Fire of 1970. The chapel of the Catholic monastery burned to the ground when the steel frame fatigued and sent the burning roof down into the chapel. An A-Frame of steel looked like limp noodles.

Whoever said that iron nails are expensive was right. Our expression "Dead as a Doornail" comes from that. In Colonial times, when someone had spare nails to sell, he would drive them into his front door in order to advertise them. For safeties sake, he would strike the protruding point of the nails coming through the inside. When bent over, they were "Dead" and could cause no harm. The nails may or may not have been part of the construction of the door, and so I don't know if we truly had nails made for doors. It was a plow to turn a profit from a scarce commodity.

[george wilson]

Nails were so valuable that the governor of early Jamestown had to pass a law that houses could not be burned down to get the nails. Probably endangered other houses nearby.

[Bob Glenn]

Nails were so valuable that the governor of early Jamestown had to pass a law that houses could not be burned down to get the nails. Probably endangered other houses nearby.

George, its getting that way again. Bought a one pound box 16 penny common nails and it was 2.50!