Am I expecting too much?

[Dick Holt]

I recently took delivery of a Shop Fox W1741 jointer (same as Grizzly G0490). I checked the flatness of the tables and fence. The tables were dead flat. The fence was out by .020. I called Shop Fox and they said it was just over their tolerances and would send me a new fence. I just got it today and checked it before I installed it. It was out .017. Should I call Shop Fox and complain? I don't know what their actual tolerances are. Since .020 was "just over" , maybe .017 is within their tolerance. If so, should I return the jointer? I haven't used it yet as I haven't quite finished putting in a 220V outlet. I have saved for a long time for this jointer, and I have to admit I am not too happy. Am I being too picky? Would a fence .017 out of flat cause any noticeable problems?

Dick

[Tim Morton]

I recently took delivery of a Shop Fox W1741 jointer (same as Grizzly G0490). I checked the flatness of the tables and fence. The tables were dead flat. The fence was out by .020. I called Shop Fox and they said it was just over their tolerances and would send me a new fence. I just got it today and checked it before I installed it. It was out .017. Should I call Shop Fox and complain? I don't know what their actual tolerances are. Since .020 was "just over" , maybe .017 is within their tolerance. If so, should I return the jointer? I haven't used it yet as I haven't quite finished putting in a 220V outlet. I have saved for a long time for this jointer, and I have to admit I am not too happy. Am I being too picky? Would a fence .017 out of flat cause any noticeable problems?

Dick

Did you order a fence that was .017 out? I didn't think so...

[Mark Engel]

Seems worth a phone call.

It would be interesting to know what Shop Fox considers the 'allowable tolerance' to be. Then you can decide if your expectations match up with Shop Fox's allowances.

[Myk Rian]

.017 isn't going to matter. You can have a fence .5" out and get an accurate edge joint. The flatness of the fence means nothing when face jointing.
The only time the fence would matter when edge jointing is if it was twisted bad.

[Steve Griffin]

I'd be fine with a fence off that small amount. Can't say I've even bothered to check mine (ignorance is bliss!)

It's not as important as the tables, and even those would probably do fine with that much variation.

Give it some test cuts and I bet you'll be happy.

-Steve

[David Kumm]

Unfortunately more fences are off than on with the current jointers. Convex is bad and twist is worse. There are lots of complaints regarding the smaller MM j-p as well as the hammer so a flat fence must be a price point issue. If the tables are flat, parallel, and co planer consider yourself lucky. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Are you asking too much? Maybe so. I have never checked my fence with anything more than a quick glance at a straight edge, not to much daylight, no problem. Mine is an older DJ-20. Its a little out. .010'? .015'"? .020"? Who knows? I never even got out so much as a feeler gauge to check. I just pushed wood over the jointer, checked that, tweaked the fence until results on a test piece are good, and there it lives. We have an older SCMI jointer at work that has been through hell and has a fence so twisted you can see it with the naked eye from 10' away, but you set it in the sort of middle "sweet spot" and it work s great.

Now if the tables were out .017', they would be hearing from me lots, but the fence IMO just isn't that critical to success on a jointer. Its more of a thing to lean against than anything. Its nice if they are flat, and you could certainly remedy that at any machine shop should you want to. Just watch that it doesn't keep moving, I hear rumors they don't always work all the stress out of the iron these days and it keeps warping as it ages, don't know the validity of that?

[John W Henderson]

It was out .017...Would a fence .017 out of flat cause any noticeable problems?

Not entirely sure, but for point of reference, this is the width of 3-4 human hairs. For metal machining 17 thousandths is pretty sloppy; not sure what is acceptable for flatness in woodworking, though.

[Jeff Nicol]

If you are going to be making things out of wood and expect it to stay within .017 tolerance you will never achieve it. Wood is alive and will change in shape when the humidity changes. If you make a piece of furniture with all kiln dried wood and 1 or 2 pieces of air dried wood, they will react differently to the changes in humidty.

Perfection is not attainable no matter how hard one attempts to achieve it, especially in woodworking. Since most times you will either be gluing up or cleaning up an edge, there will be some sanding, finishing, carving, routing or other process done to it. If you were not able to get it perpendicular to the bed that may not be so good in keeping the face and edge at a 90 degree angle.


No worries in my eyes,

Jeff

[Ron Kellison]

The only thing that matters is whether the wood is flat when you've finished running it through the jointer! If the fence is 90 degrees to the table, the tables are flat and co-planar everything should be fine. Maybe I missed it but when you mention .02" are you talking about vertical or horizontal flatness? If you're concerned about 2-hundredths of an inch along the horizontal I would suggest you will twitch more than than during the typical pass across the blades.

Make chips and measure the results. Don't get hung up on "perfect". Perfect is the enemy of the Good!

Regards,

Ron

[Rick Fisher]

I think your being too fussy considering ..

I have a Griggio 12" Jointer and when I measured the fence, its out about .015. Its not a problem.

[Myk Rian]

My latest project is a late 30s JD Wallace 8" jointer. Not even worried about the fence.

[Phil Thien]

Deviation from flat along the LENGTH of the fence hardly matters. .020 or .017 would be fine.

Deviation from flat along the HEIGHT of the fence can be a problem in that it can allow the wood to rock while edge jointing.

[glenn bradley]

At the Shop Fox and Grizzly price point I would say you are looking pretty good. My G0490X fence had an issue and the replacement was fine. I thought the tolerance quoted was .008" but, I wonder if that is documented somewhere or if that was just what I was told. I am often caught off guard by how many folks do not use their jointer for angled edge cuts. Fence deviation can cause issues there but, people rarely mention it when talking about jointer fences. Jointers are great for long mitered edges. At any rate, your tolerance is what is important. I would run some boards and see if you are happy. That is the real test, no matter what the numbers say. We use tolerances as a guideline to judge things but, if I am getting what I want out of a machine, I am not going to get in a twist because my dial indicator or feeler gauge says this or that. My .02.

[Glen Butler]

The fence being perpendicular to the beds is what matters not so much the straightness of the fence.

[Josh Bowman]

Dick,
When you say your out by .017, is that from one end of the fence to the other, long ways, like a warp? Also how are you measuring this and what are you using for a flat reference?
As with Jeff N., I agree, wood moves. If the fence is 90 degrees to the table it's entire length, then a warp will not affect your cut much. Like wood steel can have internal stress's and when it's machined, it can move.

[John TenEyck]

17 thou. might make a pretty big difference with bevel cuts, as one prior poster mentioned. But if that is within the tolerances of the maker then you only have two choices, keep it or send it back. For probably 95% of how you're likely to use it it'll be no problem. If you want perfection for those mitered cuts you can always add a supplemental wooden onto the front of the metal one. Put some Bondo between them to take up the bow, and then mill the wooden fence flat on the face after it's cured. If you don't like that approach, you could always have the fence ground flat at a machine shop, or you could do it yourself with some sandpaper glued to your table saw top, just like you flatten the sole of a plane. Just a little more workout.

[Cary Falk]

Dick,
I bought the same jointer about 4 years ago. When I got it I laid the face of the fence on the infeed table to chcke if it would rock. I turned it 180 degrees and checked it again. It didn't rock either time so I was satisfied it was not warped. It put the jointer together and started to use it. My results were fine so I never checked it further. Your post got me curious so I just went out and checked it wiht a 36" Vertias streight edge. I cannot se any light underneith the atraight edge along the length or vertical. What if I did? I would not worry about it because I know I have been getting good results from it. I would put it together and run some wood through it and see what happens. If you are happy with the results then you knwo it doesn't matter. You can call Shop Fox again if it makes you happy( I also am curious about what their spec is). I am also curious as to what your measurement methods are. Sometimes I think we(myself included) get to hung up on measurements.
Cary

[Jeff Duncan]

As has been said already that's a pretty good tolerance. To be honest I'm surprised they replaced the fence in the first place. These are budget tools after all, not exactly high precision instruments. My Delta DJ 20 is out a lot more than that.

One question though..... .017 is the thickness of 3 human hairs??? That just doesn't seem right to me, maybe I just have really thin hair?

JeffD

[Jerome Hanby]

I know it may just be looking at things realistically, but dismissing "sloppy" workmanship because something is a "budget" tool just drives me crazy. I can see where a "budget" tool may not have this bell or that whistle, or even use "lesser" materials than a premium tool, but I don't think qualities like straight, flat, parallel, and similar traits should also go out the window.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that 17 thousandths of an inch wouldn't fall within my personal margin of error. I'm not sure I'd trust my own measurements getting down that fine. My Grandfather would probably be scandalized, he was a top notch machinist...

[Steve Griffin]

According to Wiki, human hair is 0.00067 to 0.0071 inches in diameter.

So, .017 is 2.4 to 25.4 human hairs. I guess it depends whose hair and where from....

Most people probably can relate to inches better: .017 is about 1/64.

-Steve

[Dick Holt]

Josh,
You asked how the fence was out. The original was convex, the replacement was concave. They were out from top to bottom of the fence (not across the length). I measured it by laying a new Veritas 36" straight edge (guaranteed accurate to .0015") and a set of feeler gauges.

Dick

[Phil Thien]

Josh,
You asked how the fence was out. The original was convex, the replacement was concave. They were out from top to bottom of the fence (not across the length). I measured it by laying a new Veritas 36" straight edge (guaranteed accurate to .0015") and a set of feeler gauges.

Dick

So you're out .017" over the height of the fence (about four to five inches)? That is > 1/64". That is quite a bit.

[Clarence Miller]

I'd be fine with a fence off that small amount. Can't say I've even bothered to check mine (ignorance is bliss!)

It's not as important as the tables, and even those would probably do fine with that much variation.

Give it some test cuts and I bet you'll be happy.
-Steve

I never have done anything more than the cursory check with a straight edge for my jointer fence. I just recently got a digital angle finder ( the kind you set on the sawtable, zero, then stick to the blade) and found that my 90 degree deadstop is actually 89.95 degrees. Prior to that I had always been satisfied with my drafting square, now the 0.05 degree is driving me nuts. Ignorance is bliss

[Carl Beckett]

Not to confuse things further, but a plane is defined by three points.

If the board and fence are a rigid body (no flex), they will only touch at three points at any one given point in time. So to understand how the piece is actually guided, you would need to determine the contact points (which may or may not be impacted by a concave fence)

I might choose the concave part over the convex (less rocking - since the 'points' of contact are more likely spaced farther apart). The wider the distance between contact points, the more stable the support.

I have actually measured different human hairs and found blondes to me smaller dia (.003") and thick black hair to be larger dia (.006"). Is this relevant?? - Ah, the things you spend time in during your youth as a machinist apprentice.

I dont think .017" across the entire surface of a jointer fence is crazy out of spec. As mentioned here, cast iron can move (at least with common manf methods used today), and wood is not a precise material. I dont joint 'small' or 'short' pieces (its dangerous!). So .017 over a 6" piece would bother me, yes. But .017" over a 4-6 foot piece? Within whats reasonable for wood. And that assumes the .017" translates directly to the plane of the wood (which in practice, I do not believe it would).

Having said that, neither do I believe you can expect any better by just 'sending it back'. You will just get one that is a little different (still not 'perfectly' flat). Ultimately, the only way to really get it flat (if it bothers you that much) is to surface it yourself (send it out or do yourself, as stated here). I doubt that there is that much difference on equipment of a given price range (since as we all know, they are pretty much all made with the same manufacturing methods and perhaps even in the same factory). Yes, I am in the camp that I dont expect the same quality from a relatively 'low end' product line that I would expect from a 'premium' product line. Maybe the premium products would have a longer casting cure time, and a secondary operation to ensure better flatness. These steps come with a cost - some are happy to pay - others appreciate a lower price point option where we might not care about the added quality. This way I get to choose which route I want to go (and I do choose a different approach, depending on the tool and my priorities and usage expectation)

$.02 ymmv

[Frank Drew]

IMO out of flat across a jointer fence's width is not acceptable since that would make it impossible to set the fence at 90º to the tables for all the different widths of wood you're going to be edge jointing. A little out of perfectly flat along its length wouldn't worry me.