An Interesting Conversation With Mr. Hall

[Chris Griggs]

Yes, that's right, this is another thread about sharpening stones - but don't worry it's nothing crazy. I just thought I'd pass along some interesting information I just garnered from Mr. Hall of http://hallsproedge.com. It's probably nothing new to those of you that have a lot of experience with Arks, but hopefully some folks will find it useful.

I've been messing around with a 8x2 soft ark and a 8x2 surgical black I purchased from Mr. Hall about a week ago - honestly I didn't need these stones at all, and really shouldn't have spent the money, but I was bored and really wanted to try out some natural stones. For what it's worth, I really like them, particularly for quick chisel touch ups, and am very glad to have them as part of my sharpening setup.

Anyway, I called Mr. Hall today to get some info on a couple of questions that those new to or contemplating Arkansas stones always seem to ask (myself included)

My first question, was about the ongoing mystery regarding what is "finer" a surgical black or a translucent. I put the term "finer" in quotes, because Mr. Hall uses it differently then most of us and admits that the use of it on his website is somewhat misleading. On his website Mr. Hall calls the translucent the finest Arkansas available, but he explained that he uses the term "finest" to mean "the best", and that in terms of actual edge fineness and polish he thinks the surgical are actually a finer stone. He likes the translucents better though and says that if you had a full set of Arks then your transluscent would no doubt be your favorite because they cut faster, feel nicer, and still produce almost as fine of an edge as a black.

My second question to Mr. Hall was regarding the best way to lap stone. Halls does lap their stones and will relap them free of charge (you pay shipping) when you wear them out of flat. However, my stones and the few other new Arks I've seen don't quite meet woodworker standards of flatness, and I felt mine needed further lapping. I specifically asked Mr. Hall about what he thought about lapping them with a diamond plate, which is what I did when mine came. He said that a diamond plate will work, but you risk "crystalizing the surface". I asked him what he meant by crystallizing and he essentially said that it would make the surface to fine and the stone would not cut fast enough (particularly the soft). Long story short, he said just make sure you lap the stone with something that matches the coarseness you want the stone to be. I will say that I did some of this "crystalization" on my soft ark even with an DMT extra course (225 grit ) diamond plate. After lapping with the plate I ended up going back and roughing up the service with some drywall screen to make it cut faster. However, part of me wonders if what potentially glazes/"crystallizes" the surface isn't the diamond plate itself, but rather, the slurry that is created during lapping. Perhaps by keeping the plate and stone clear of slurry during the lapping one could minimize or eliminate any glazing.

Anyway, I don't know if this info will be useful to folks, but it was interesting and enlightening to me, so I thought I'd share.

P.S. I will also say that the quality and customer service offered by Halls is excellent - every bit as good as even LN and LV... Should you ever decide to purchase some stone from Halls, Mr. Hall will personally make sure you are a satisfied customer.

[george wilson]

I don't get Mr. Hall's line of reasoning,or his use of terms like "fine". Seems like he is confusing customers. A diamond stone is certainly coarser than a white Arkansas. I don't get it about the "crystallizing" Of the surface.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I get a little testy about the use of language in the descriptions. All arkansas stones and for that matter all natural sharpening stones are crystalline or they would not cut. They are crystals, or grains if you prefer, in a matrix. It begs the question of can you crystallize a crystal. Is he trying to say the matrix clogs? Maybe someone should suggest that a wordsmith with a better vocabulary write the descriptions and answer the FAQ. The best products around won't sell well if the customer is confused and doesn't understand the message the seller is trying to convey. I agree with George.

[Chris Griggs]

What I gathered he meant by the word "crystallizing" was what I think most of us would call glazing, as in the crystalline particles would get worn down and/or as Dave suggested get clogged with it's own grit - much like an undressed gray grinder wheel. Dave is it not be possible to where down the actual cutting particles on the surface? Any abrasive except diamonds does where down to some extent doesn't it? Not trying to be argumentative, I am sincerley asking.

Also, perhaps my post wasn't very clear. Mr. Hall didn't say it was bad to use diamond, just to make sure that whatever you used was coarse enough to leave a rough surface - particularly on the soft arks. In the case of my soft ark I do think the stone probably became clogged with the slurry that was created when I lapped it with diamond. I wiped it off, but I'm guessing some dried in it - next time I will give it a good rinse afterward to see if that makes things better.

FWIW, Mr. Hall admitted that his website does confuse some people, he really was very helpful on the phone and I was happy to give him my business.

Anyway, I started this thread just too pass along some info, hopefully clarify some of the stuff on Halls website, as well as share my positive experience with the company in the hopes that this info would be useful to others. I really hope I didn't end up just adding confusion to things or making Halls look bad - that is the opposite of what I intended.

[Kevin Adams]

Funny, but after surfacing with a diamond stone I like to leave the slurry on the stones, especially the soft ark, as I find it makes the stone cut more aggressively! This works even better (I find) with India stones. This was not my idea, but from Larry Williams btw. It is no different than creating a slurry on natural waterstones and I think it "supercharges" them. I do clean the stones after I am done sharpening though.

I use Hall's stones (soft, hard, and black) exclusively and find them to be outstanding. I could not justify the price difference between the black and translucent and find the black to produce as fine an edge as I need (and I strop after that anyway). I agree that Hall's provides great service and Mr. Hall couldn't be more helpful.

Kevin

[Chris Griggs]

Yes, with the slurry on them they cut faster and take on a great feel by the way. Larry Williams is dead on with that. It was on later uses when I didn't reraise a slurry that the stone seemed glazed - I'm guessing I didn't clean it well enough after I flattened it.

[Bob Smalser]

I flatten my stones on the jointer table using 60-grit paper...without any problems. Been doing it that way for 40 years...but with soft novaculite stones that means every few years...medium stones once or twice in my lifetime...and black stones never.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17020258/263581563.jpg

And I own one or two, some of the thinner ones in their second or even third generation of family use.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17020258/272093964.jpg

I store them immersed in kerosene to keep them clean and prevent glazing.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I didn't think you were being argumentative Chris. You raise a legitimate question. If the matrix which holds a sharpening grit is too hard it will not release the surface particles which do indeed dull over time. There is a fine line between having a matrix binder strong enough to hold things together so that you don't have premature wear and having one that is soft or weak enough to release dull particles at the appropriate time. It is a tough balancing act for the makers of artificial water and oil stones. For the natural ones you pick your stone and either like it or not. Periodic cleaning of oilstones is quite necessary to prevent glazing or to remove any glaze that accumulates. Bob Smalser's suggestion of kerosene is a good one.

[george wilson]

They always use kerosene in the Millwork shop in Williamsburg,for the stones and slipstones used in maintaining their shaper knives,etc..

[David Keller NC]

Bob Smalser's suggestion of kerosene is a good one.

Be careful with this, folks. While it takes very specific circumstances and is therefore rare, it is actually possible to exceed the LEL (Lower Explosion Limit) with kerosene, deisel, mineral spirits, and other high-boiling-point combustible petrochemicals. What that means is keeping them in a container that you can seal.

The specific circumstances that can lead to an explosion and fire is typically an underground workshop that's not part of the building HVAC system (like a basement workshop), so vaporized components are not continuously removed. Because the vaporized components of kerosene are heavier than air, they can build up along the floor of said workshop and be ignited by appliances such as a hot water heater, gas clothes dryer, electric woodworking tools, etc...

[Bob Smalser]

What that means is keeping them in a container that you can seal.



The container shown is Tupperware....complete with a watertight lid. It keeps the dust out and minimizes evaporation.