New vises for a new bench

[Derek Cohen]

I think that the topic is likely to be interesting to many - inspite of the numerous discussions on benches - as this one is about matching designs with work methods and facilities.

My bench has just about done its dash. Nearly 20 years old now, I built it originally with power tools in mind. It was not terribly solid, although made from Karri and Jarrah, both very hard. Over the years I have re-configured it - moved vises, added vises, removed vises, added skirting, planed the top, screwed it to a wall for rigidity ... In its current form it is really rigid. You could not rack it if a dozen tried similtaneously. The Karri top is dark, however, and I want a light surface for increased light. I have planed away half the thickness over the years, with the result that the dowels I used to align the boards are now showing through.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench and Workshop/Light2.jpg

12" to the right is a door, so that area needs to be kept clear ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ImagesOfMyWoodshop_html_m2feaf3e6.jpg

It is a small bench, just about 5' long. The new one will be on the smaller side as well - a touch over 6'. This is as much as I can fit in. It also influences the vises I can use.

Now I am looking at a Roubo style. The new top will be 4" thick European Oak. 22-24" wide - it has to be situated against a wall. The base will be Jarrah, open with a shelf for the accessories used on the bench (Moxon dovetail vise, etc).

At present I have two Record #52 1/2 vises, one for the face and another as a tail vise. I dislike their limited capacity and inability to deal with non-parallel workpieces.

If you had asked me which vises I wanted in my ideal bench a couple of years ago, I would have said the LV 24" Double Screw for the face and a traditional European tail vise.

http://www.benchcrafted.com/Graphics/Vises/Cast Iron Tail/TradWagon.jpg

http://www.leevalley.com/en/images/item/woodworking/clamps/05g1221s1.jpg

One choice is relatively easy: I would struggle to find room for the L tail vise as it extends out of the back and into the remaining room in my small workshop (garage). I liked the idea of having a central clamping area that this vise offers. Now my thoughts turn to a wagon vise, especially the BenchCraft, as it is compact, robust and beautifully made (price and shipping costs to Oz aside!).

http://www.benchcrafted.com/Graphics/Vises/Cast Iron Tail/Features.jpg

The face vise is the one that really gives me a headache! What has turned the world around has been the advent of the Moxon vise. Well done to Chris Schwarz for bringing it to our attention! Before this, I had considered that dovetailing would be done with the double screw type. The downside to this vise is that it is low - a feature remediated by the Moxon. However the width of the 24" LV double screw is still a very desirable feature as I think (one point that I need info on) that it is deep enough to clamp drawers for planing. My concern is that this vise will take up too much room on a 6' bench ...?

There are better ways to do it than this (but the only picture I could find) ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MakingBetter Dovetails_html_m371d677e.jpg



With the Moxon in use, a leg vise now appears to be a serious contender. The advantage here is its capacity for clamping long boards for edge jointing. My concern it that it has a limited capacity for holding out-of-square pieces (where the twin screw scores).

http://www.benchcrafted.com/Graphics/Vises/LegVise/Cast Iron Leg/Leg_detail.jpg

I would dearly love to hear the opinions of the forum, your experience with these vises, the pros and cons of each, the pros and cons of building one's own, what you would change if you could, keeping in mind that this is a 6' bench.

I am still busy with the military chests and will not get to the bench for a few months, but I do need to be designing the top for the vises, and to order them.

Thanks.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Griggs]

Hi Derek,

I too have limited space and my bench is around 5 and a half feet long. I went through the same thinking regarding the space a twin screw vise would take up on a shorter bench. If I had an 8 ft bench I would likely have gone with a twin screw, but I ended up going with a slanted leg vise, as a twin screw would have taken up too much of the bench. Also since you have a Moxon there really is no reason for you to build a twin screw into your bench.

I would definitely go with the leg vise for the front. They are a very good style of vise with a lot of capacity - their biggest strength is edge planing wide boards since they allow you to put the board deep in the vise an keep your weight/center of gravity above it.

For the end vise, I ended up using a plain old 7 inch cast iron vise. You could definitely use one of your records. I would rather have a wagon vise if I had a longer bench, but the nice thing about a cast iron vise is that it effectively increases the length of the bench, where as a wagon vise takes up bench top realestate. Of course this only gives/takes away a few inches in either direction, but on a shortish (6ft is not all that short) bench those few inches can make a difference.

BTW here's a link to my bench thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?161979-My-New-English-Workbench-The-Official-Tour&highlight=

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'll be interested in seeing your finished bench; (well, I'm interested in seeing all the benches here) as I'm also starting work on a small bench - I haven't figured out if I'm going 5 or 6 feet or somewhere in between, but I'm also going with a short length like this, as I don't have the space for anything longer.

With the smaller sized bench you have now, or the one you're planning on building, do you still go with the same size overhang on the ends of the benches (seems like around a foot is normal for most of the bench plans I've seen) or shorten it some to get a wider footprint for more stability at the small size? Or am I overthinking this entirely? Part of me was debating going with no overhang on the non-end-vise end, with the hopes that if I move somewhere with a little more space, I could remake just the top, and add a little length in the process, but that seems like it would be silly to remake the top just to gain an extra foot or so, and building a new bench down the line would be a better bet.

While we're talking vises (and sorry to hijack the thread) what are folks thoughts on using iron vises like Derek's Record vises, vs. using something like the "hardware kits" (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=31137&cat=1,41659,41661&ap=1) where you create more of the mechanism? Cost concerns have me planning to use one of those options for my end vise, but also because they seemed well suited to mounting to the top so I have a vise in place while the top is on sawhorses, to aid in construction of the base assembly.

[Simon Frez-Albrecht]

My workbench is only 6' long, I ended up deciding to use a leg vise, primarily to make edge planing easier. I also use it for dovetail, cutting tenons, etc. If you design a bench with a front apron, it would be easy to combine the leg vise with a hold fast to effectively stabilize wood for almost any edge or end cutting, but I haven't had any issues with just my leg vise, and perhaps an F clamp on the other edge for really wide or bowed stuff.

I also elected to exclude a tail vise. I have a Veritas Wonder Dog, which does the same task, but most often I plane into a pair of battens on my bench, and the Wonder Dog is plenty for the occasions that I need a tail vise. It also doesn't take up any real estate on my relatively short bench.

[Prashun Patel]

I'm way out of your league on everything, but will offer that a Moxon raises the working plane for some dovetail ops which is better if you have a back like mine...

FWIW, I was turned onto the Moxon vise by one of your posts. I like yr version a lot and am considering making one.

On a selfish note, please post pix of yr build; I enjoy/learn a lot from them.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello Derek,

I'm glad to see that you're planning a new bench after watching you on your old one for a couple of years now.

Quick question: You have a decent sized space (double car garage if I recall) and given your passionate interest in hand tools, why limit yourself to 6'? Is there some architectural constraint that can't be overcome? Is there not some rearrangement that could open up more space to a larger altar of neander bliss?

Cheers,
Chris C.

[Derek Cohen]

Many thanks for all the comments and ideas so far. Keep them coming. I will make some comments tomorrow morning (Oz time for me).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Wes Grass]

No actual experience, but I've been going through the layout process of putting a wagon vise in a short (6') bench, with some sort of useful travel (like 8" minimum), and I'm stuck with 2 options:

1. Move the leg over so far the bench looks unstable.

2. Move the dog holes back behind the leg, which doesn't look very good either.

Currently looking at splitting the leg and running the vise down the middle, and it doesn't look good either.

[jamie shard]

For what it's worth, I seriously like the idea of one 6' bench that's at plane-ing height and a separate 24" bench at joinery height.

I have a short bench with a slant leg vice and it works great for edge planing long boards like chris schwartz says --- but the vice is in the way for mortising (right in front of the leg) and a plow plane guide can hit it when planing on the surface's front edge. I realized the vice is really too low for ripping tenons (for long periods of time) and a little low for cutting dovetails, too. The bench is at a good height for cross-cuts on a bench hook and shooting.

A moxon vice solves the problem of dovetails, but when cutting tenons it's nice to be able to quickly change the vice from width to thickeness rapidly (and hand screws are slow).

So why not a cutting station (the 24") bench with a big rapid action front vice, then a 6' bench with legs flush with top that you could handle any other job plus shooting/crosscuts?

Hope this helps!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Currently looking at splitting the leg and running the vise down the middle, and it doesn't look good either.

That seems to be the approach that Konrad Sauer took (http://sauerandsteiner.blogspot.com/2010/08/new-bench-for-woodworking-in-america.html) for a portable bench he made for WIA, although he used one of LV's tail vises. Sort of a real neat modification to the vise that allows the leg to continue to have support through the cavity excavated for the hardware.

[Dave Anderson NH]

When I built my new bench almost 3 years ago now the idea of a removable Moxon had not resurfaced so I went with a wooden twin screw vise with 24.5" between the screws. It works very well, but is tough on my back when dovetailing small pieces since my benchtop is only 29.5" high. If I had a "do over" I might reconsider given the Moxon idea, but a bench on bench like that shown in FWW about 5-6 years ago would accomplish much the same task and give me a usable platform for carving which requires an even higher elevation for comfort. I chose to use no tail vise, and like Simon, I use either stops, holdfasts,and battens or alternately a stop and a LV Wonder Dog to secure long work for face planing. For my round dog holes I have white ash dogs that are just round and another set with a 1/2" high flat cut into one face. Unlike your situation Derek, I have the bench usable from all 4 sides and make extensive use of my Emmert K-1 in both the horizontal and vertical postions for a wide variety of work. Used vertically, it also allows me to increase the effective height of my bench by about 6-8" obviating much of the need for a Moxon. As part of the equation, I made a modified version of a saw bench and sized its height so that it works just fine to allow me to sit at the bench and work at either the Emmert or the twin screw without developing a sore back. I will admit to being somewhat cavalier in that I didn't spend a lot of time worrying about effiecient use of space. My bench room is exactly that, a bench room with my 24" x 90" newish bench, my 30" x 78" old bench converted to an assembly bench and general catch all crap bench, a 24" x 48" sharpening bench, and my sawbench. It is admitedly a luxury allowed by an understanding wife who allows me to use the whole basement.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

There's also this approach, (http://benchcrafted.blogspot.com/2011/08/roubo-in-two-days-and-wia-2011.html) from a small bench Benchcrafted is making for this years WIA, using a small leg pushed back compared to the front.

[Andrae Covington]

I'm way out of your league on everything, but will offer that a Moxon raises the working plane for some dovetail ops which is better if you have a back like mine...

FWIW, I was turned onto the Moxon vise by one of your posts. I like yr version a lot and am considering making one.

On a selfish note, please post pix of yr build; I enjoy/learn a lot from them.

I also still intend to build a Moxon one of these days and like Derek's version, thanks for sharing it with us.

I have said in other threads that I like my two leg vise setup, one fixed and one that slides. However, I have an ~8' bench, and I think on a shorter bench the sliding vise would get in your way more than it would help. So I don't really recommend it. I do think that the standard leg vise would be a good approach, especially since you already have the twin-screw Moxon for dovetailing.

I do not have an end vise. While designing and building my bench, I could not decide what type I really wanted, so I went with none. I just don't know what I'm missing.:D If I were to add one, I would probably just use a metal vise like your Records, or the Veritas surface vise. If I were installing one while building a new bench, I would probably choose the wagon vise. However, Chris Griggs and Wes Grass both bring up good points about the logistics of shoehorning a wagon vise into a shorter bench.

[Derek Cohen]

Quick question: You have a decent sized space (double car garage if I recall) and given your passionate interest in hand tools, why limit yourself to 6'? Is there some architectural constraint that can't be overcome? Is there not some rearrangement that could open up more space to a larger altar of neander bliss?


Hi Chris

The shop is in a double garage, true. However I still need to park one car inside, mine. The other family members get to live outside :) Since is is a ragtop I would rather it had indoor space.

You can see some of the European Oak for the bench behind a tail light. Got a bunchmore coming tomorrow. The base will be made from Jarrah ex-roof beams.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench%20and%20Workshop/Moxon%20bench/Update1-3.jpg

With the smaller sized bench you have now, or the one you're planning on building, do you still go with the same size overhang on the ends of the benches (seems like around a foot is normal for most of the bench plans I've seen) or shorten it some to get a wider footprint for more stability at the small size?


Joshua, this is a good point. I'd like to hear what others have found. For example, how did the vise you have (both face and tail) influence the amount of overhang in the bench?

I would definitely go with the leg vise for the front. They are a very good style of vise with a lot of capacity - their biggest strength is edge planing wide boards since they allow you to put the board deep in the vise an keep your weight/center of gravity above it.

Chris, that is the way I am planning to go now. More details later.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Friesen]

However the width of the 24" LV double screw is still a very desirable feature as I think (one point that I need info on) that it is deep enough to clamp drawers for planing.

You don't need to clamp the drawers (or carcase sides) in the vise if you don't want to. The pic below is taken from http://www.rpwoodwork.com/blog/category/jigs-and-fixtures/page/2/. I've also seen a version of this using dowels and guide bars so one end fits in the tail vise and the other end slips into a dog hole...saves having to rebuild the jig all the time.

205550

[Jim Matthews]

My cheap solution to similar problems - the Pipe Clamp Moxon vise.205551205552205553205554205555205556205557
I installed a Veritas surface vise, as the wagon vise install was daunting. This thing is slick, but I doubt it will handle the rigors of a production shop.

On the flip side, the surface clamps hold my stock up to a crochet. They're solid when fixed against the dedicated leg and sliding deadman.
It's fiddly - but I'm in for less than the cost of a single Benchcrafted or Hovarter vise - top, bottom and drawers.

The small block is for holding thin stock that isn't wide enough to reach the bench top from the top most hole in the dedicated leg.

Dunno if I could get an entire military chest on this thing - it's always covered with my tools!

jim
wpt, ma

[Frank Carnevale]

I too amd starting up on building my bench. Also going slightly over 6 feet. Going with the leg vise, moxon vise and maybe skipping the tail vise (for what i do, it makes sense). Great post though. Seems like what we all go through in the design stage.

[Christopher Charles]

Hi Chris

The shop is in a double garage, true. However I still need to park one car inside, mine. The other family members get to live outside :) Since is is a ragtop I would rather it had indoor space.


Hello Derek,

No surprise that you've thought it through and I'd find room for a rag top as well! I've just moved into a 2 car space and it feels like an embarassment of space after my last (less than) one car garage space, but i can already feel the space shrinking... Will keep the cars at bay for as long as I can though!

Cheers,
C

[Steve Branam]

I use a setup almost identical to Simon's, leg vise, Wonder Dog, and planing battens. Plus I've added bench-on-bench and Moxon vise (why have just one? :D).

The leg vise can crush stone. It's a great method. There is some play to it to accommodate mildly out-of-square stock. I've used mine to hold sections of logs that I'm ripping with a timber saw. And with a long screw, it can probably hold drawers for planing. I used the German bench screw from Woodcraft. There are cheaper ones (maybe not by the time you ship them to Oz!), but I've been happy with the extra $20 or $30 I spent on it.

The Benchcrafted is a great version. I don't have them, but I like the little rollers for the lower guide; that is the one awkward part of the leg vise. Jameel has plans for them on the Benchcrafted blog.

[David Keller NC]

Derek - Given your penchant for analysis (that's a compliment, btw), do you have Chris Schwarz's first bench book? If not, I'd buy it and read it. There's an extensive discussion of face vise designs and their advantages/disadvantages. I'm also gearing up to build bench #5, and it will be a Ruobo-type with a massive, single-slab top. But I'm pretty sure I'm going to dispense with the leg vise for 2 reasons - one is simple prejudice; I've worked with a twin-screw, shoulder or quick-release jorgensen-type for 20+ years, and I like them. The second is an analysis of my work - I do use handplanes to joint the edges of boards, but that's only about 3% of the actual work to square and surface a rough board.

And I personally see some disadvantages to the leg vise for working on subassemblies such as drawers and carcasses - specifically, the vise's open capacity. I rather often find myself gripping an 8" wide drawer in one moment, and a 7/8" thick board the next. With a twin-screw or quick-release vise, that's very easy. I'm sure a leg vise could be made with a long enough screw to do the same, but I see re-setting a pin at the bottom of the leg to be a bother.

This is also the reason that I doubt I'll build another bench with a shoulder vise. One has to guess at the capacity one would need during the design phase, and since the outer jaw is fixed in a shoulder vise, accomodating the 1% of the time where I need 10" of opening means that 100% of the time I'll be leaning over 10" to get to the workpiece.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jim

You wanted to know how to get a military chest onto a small bench (I measured mine - it is only 4'10"!)? Have a look at the way I use my interpretation of the Moxon dovetail vise ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench%20and%20Workshop/Moxon%20dovetail%20vise/16.jpg

Article: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MoxonDovetailVise.html

David, many thanks for your thoughtful comments. I have made a few decisions. Hopefully these will firm up even more in the next month or so before I start the bench build.

The primary needs for the bench are vises to hold work for edge jointing (face vise) and for face planing (end vise). Secondary needs are to hold drawers and odd shapes. I must concentrate on the primary needs as these constitute 90% of the usage.

For a face vise I will build a leg vise. This makes most sense now that the Moxon vise is there to take care of the dovetail area. Wilbur has been most generous in offering me a 12" long 2" wide wooden screw (and fixings) that I will use to build around. The lower adjustments are not really an issue as most of the edge jointing is for boards between 1/2 - 3/4", which means that they will not require a change of setting.

For the end vice I plan to order one of the BenchCraft wagon vises. The advantage of using a vise that moves internally of the bench is that I can build a longer bench, hopefully about 6'6".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If your bench is sturdy enough to deal with not being bolted to the wall; my new favorite method for working on drawers (when the drawer is big enough, and the bench is narrow enough) is to just slide them over the overhang on one end of the the bench. Doing this on what passes for a bench at our old music studio made me re-think how wide I really want my bench to be.

[Jim Matthews]

Your posts are endlessly informative. I would not have thought to use the Moxon as a spar.

Dunno what you're mates say, but that's clever.

Best regards from an other ocean,
jim
wpt, ma

[Derek Cohen]

If your bench is sturdy enough to deal with not being bolted to the wall; my new favorite method for working on drawers (when the drawer is big enough, and the bench is narrow enough) is to just slide them over the overhang on one end of the the bench. Doing this on what passes for a bench at our old music studio made me re-think how wide I really want my bench to be.

Interesting idea Joshua. I will think on this.

The new bench will not be attached to the wall, but stand about 12" away from it. The reason is that there are low cabinets above and I want to be above to get over the whole surface of the bench. Plus it is useful to be able to clamp across the top.

Regards from Perth

Derek