Seeking info on Hot Rodding my Delta 50-850 DC

[Steven Wayne]

As the title says, I am seeking info on Hot Rodding (getting the most of) my Delta 50-850 Type 2 dust collector. I mostly work with MDF in my shop. I do custom upholstery, mostly in older classic cars and hot rods. I use a lot of MDF and luan in my projects. I have been putting together the wood working part of my shop this year. I have a 1973 Unisaw that I have set up for my needs. The Unisaw and a router mounted in a Bench Dog cast iron extension wing are my only real dust producers right now.

What I currently have:
Delta 50-850 Type 2. I removed the Y at the inlet. It has the Delta canister filter on it.
6" PVC S&D main header connected directly to the inlet.
4" PVC S&D to the Unisaw base and under-table router box.
4" PVC S&D to a short (~30") 4" hose to either the saw's Shark Guard w/4" port or the router fence dust port with 2.25 -> 4" adapter.

Jet AFS-1000B air filter with Jet filters.



Things I'm considering doing:
Removing the steel 4" baffle on the inlet to the impeller.
Making a Phil Thien design baffle (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=74713).
Replacing the cartridge with a Wynn Environmental Nanofiber .5 micron cartridge.
Installing Wynn Environmental filter and bag in the Jet air filter.


Goals:
I don't want to spend a bunch of money for little return. ie: most bang for the buck, taking in to account what I already own.
Capture as much dust at the source as I can, of course :)
Get the most out of the 50-850.
Do it right the first time so I'm not ripping it all out in a few months to change it up.


I have spent many hours reading everything I can find on the subject, which is how I have got the info above. I welcome any input, advice, photos, links, etc.

Thanks!
Steven

Some photos..

Yes, my dust collector is sitting on my milling machine..
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bga7OMVSneI/TksCgTTR6XI/AAAAAAAAGCw/wFva51JYEfU/s800/IMG_4590.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-SdXPcucRQXE/TksCgVdzlEI/AAAAAAAAGC0/CDuT6safXIA/s800/IMG_4588.jpg

The light by the canister will be moved..
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Yk8QkIal68w/TksCfJbYoKI/AAAAAAAAGCk/SiwL39eZ6dw/s800/IMG_4582.jpghttps://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-SdXPcucRQXE/TksCgVdzlEI/AAAAAAAAGC0/CDuT6safXIA/s800/IMG_4588.jpg

I couldn't find a local supplier for 6" wye so I used a tee.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Yk8QkIal68w/TksCfJbYoKI/AAAAAAAAGCk/SiwL39eZ6dw/s800/IMG_4582.jpg

The lower 4" connections.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-H9uWCG9cc20/TksCfmD0x3I/AAAAAAAAGCs/pvPr-n4eh0s/s800/IMG_4584.jpg

[Gilbert Vega]

Sounds like what you have done and plan on doing should maximize the dc. I had the same unit with the Delta cartridge filter but had to replace it with a Powermatic dc that pulled 1900 cfm. The Delta worked fine on all my tools except on a 37" drum sander
Just couldn't pull the air, even with very short 4" hoses. Hope yours does what you want it to do.
Gilbert

[Alan Schaffter]

See suggestions below for the quickest, easiest, most inexpensive ways to improve your setup.


As the title says, I am seeking info on Hot Rodding (getting the most of) my Delta 50-850 Type 2 dust collector. I mostly work with MDF in my shop. I do custom upholstery, mostly in older classic cars and hot rods. I use a lot of MDF and luan in my projects. I have been putting together the wood working part of my shop this year. I have a 1973 Unisaw that I have set up for my needs. The Unisaw and a router mounted in a Bench Dog cast iron extension wing are my only real dust producers right now.


Things I'm considering doing:
Removing the steel 4" baffle on the inlet to the impeller. You should have done that years ago!


Making a Phil Thien design baffle (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=74713).
Replacing the cartridge with a Wynn Environmental Nanofiber .5 micron cartridge.
Installing Wynn Environmental filter and bag in the Jet air filter. Forget the filters, use a separator and vent outside.



Goals:
I don't want to spend a bunch of money for little return. ie: most bang for the buck, taking in to account what I already own.
Capture as much dust at the source as I can, of course :)
Get the most out of the 50-850.
Do it right the first time so I'm not ripping it all out in a few months to change it up.


I have spent many hours reading everything I can find on the subject, which is how I have got the info above. I welcome any input, advice, photos, links, etc.


I couldn't find a local supplier for 6" wye so I used a tee. Get rid of all the T's, they are big time CFM killers!!!! Use only wyes. Get rid of all the 90's- replace with a wye + 45, or use two 4's. Straighten all your runs. Your runs don't need to be orthogonal- think outside the box. Totally rework the abortion of inlet piping to the DC- re-orient the blower, elevate the DC, lower the piping along the wall, etc., but do whatever you need to do so the inlet pipe runs straight for as long as possible and runs directly into the DC. Every bend robs CFM!! Don't neck down before the TS.

[Steven Wayne]

Forget the filters, use a separator and vent outside.

Get rid of all the T's, they are big time CFM killers!!!! Use only wyes. Get rid of all the 90's- replace with a wye + 45, or use two 4's. Straighten all your runs. Your runs don't need to be orthogonal- think outside the box. Totally rework the abortion of inlet piping to the DC- re-orient the blower, elevate the DC, lower the piping along the wall, etc., but do whatever you need to do so the inlet pipe runs straight for as long as possible and runs directly into the DC. Every bend robs CFM!! Don't neck down before the TS.

When you say separator do you mean the Phil Thien baffle?

I have yet to find a local supplier for 6" wyes. I can re-work the inlet. I already removed. the 4" inlet restricter piece.

Thank you for the info!

[Alan Schaffter]

When you say separator do you mean the Phil Thien baffle?

I have yet to find a local supplier for 6" wyes. I can re-work the inlet. I already removed. the 4" inlet restricter piece.

Thank you for the info!

Cyclone, Phil's system, or nothing, if you can get away with it- the goal is the least resistance.

Did you use thin walled PVC Sewer and Drain (solid perf, gravity drain, S&D, ASTM 2729)? If so try McMaster-Carr or Ace Hardware (store or online). My Lowes only carries 4" S&D pipe but carries 4" and 6" fittings - remember the fittings will usually not be in the plumbing section- they will be in the irrigation and drainage section area.

What I meant by thinking outside the box and avoid orthogonal - people try to make their DC runs, look like nice neat setups- run along the walls, sharp bends around corners, etc, etc. when most of those things are bad- you can run your drops at a 45 down etc. Though they run below the floor of my second story shop (along garage ceiling) I have two long mains running each about 30 ' connected to 12 drops and I did it all with zero 90's. Here is a shot of my ducting. More can be seen in my video (http://videos.americanwoodworker.com/video/Automatic-Dust-Collection).

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P10100902.jpg

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P1010091a1.JPG

[Joe A Faulkner]

You probably have already have seen it, but in case you haven't, here is a great build of the Thien Baffle configured for 6" inlets/outlets.

http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=429.0;topicseen

I built mine following this basic desgin/approach only lined the cylinder with hardboard with aluminum roof flashing laminated to it instead of using formica - basically went with what I had on hand.

Here's a creek post of a "portable" version: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ions&p=1607637 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?157024-My-HF-Thien-Wynn-conversions&p=1607637) .

I borrowed from this design for mounting my blower housing so that it sits right on top of the baffle; plumbed with a short run of 6" S&D pvc. Here's another creek build of the baffle, but this one uses 4" inlets/outlets and long runs of flex hose between the baffle and blower. I think you will get better performance if you can eliminate these long runs of flex hose.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?163607-My-HF-DC-w-Different-Version-of-Thien-Baffle (http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=429.0;topicseen)

If you are sawing a lot of MDF, you will want some type of overarm dust pick up on your table saw. I made my own using 4" S&D PVC off a 6" trunk to run out over the TS, with a short pieces of 4" flex connecting to a homemade hood. Perhaps your Unisaw already has an overarm DC?

[Steve Ryan]

Rework the Delta blower. Try to mount the blower directly into the seperator, eliminating the small flex hose. It may be possible to eliminate the 90 and 2)45s by doing this. Also consider an over arm pickup over the saw blade.

[David Kumm]

Whatever you do now spend as little as possible and save money and watch for a used cyclone in the 3-5 hp 15-16" impeller range. Mdf is bad stuff and what you don't see you feel- in about 20 years. There is no substitute for cfm in your situation and eventually you will decide to redo the entire system and use fittings better suited to maximizing that airflow. MDF demands better DC than most wood in my lungs opinion. Dave

[Jim Neeley]

Steven,

I really like the idea of getting your DC up and out of the way. The thing jumping out to me is access for emptying of the dust bag, with it elevated so high. If it were me I'd disconnect the flex hose, move the fan to the back and the filter to the front and build a "box" where the bag is, with some form of "trap door" that permitted emptying into a large (but moveable) trash can. If there was a plexi "window" in the side you could see when to dump.

To avoid the dust when dumping, a ring could be made and, using the elastic ring that holds the bag in place now, hold the bag against the trap door for dumping, removing it thereafter to free back up the floor space.

[Steven Wayne]

You probably have already have seen it, but in case you haven't, here is a great build of the Thien Baffle configured for 6" inlets/outlets.

http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=429.0;topicseen

If you are sawing a lot of MDF, you will want some type of overarm dust pick up on your table saw. I made my own using 4" S&D PVC off a 6" trunk to run out over the TS, with a short pieces of 4" flex connecting to a homemade hood. Perhaps your Unisaw already has an overarm DC?

Thank you for that link. I actually found that last night when searching around for info on the baffle. I plan to build this sort of separator and mount the blower on top of it. This will hopefully be setup so that the inlet to the separator is at the level of my current main 6" header. Then the separator will be on top of a can up on that shelf where the DC currently sits.


Rework the Delta blower. Try to mount the blower directly into the seperator, eliminating the small flex hose. It may be possible to eliminate the 90 and 2)45s by doing this. Also consider an over arm pickup over the saw blade.

I plan to build the separator very similar to what Joe linked to above. I have a Shark Guard on order. I'm hoping it will be here soon.


Whatever you do now spend as little as possible and save money and watch for a used cyclone in the 3-5 hp 15-16" impeller range. Mdf is bad stuff and what you don't see you feel- in about 20 years. There is no substitute for cfm in your situation and eventually you will decide to redo the entire system and use fittings better suited to maximizing that airflow. MDF demands better DC than most wood in my lungs opinion. Dave

Crap! After reading this I am wondering if my current setup is going to be adequate. I currently use a respirator when I am working with MDF. Hmmm.. Anyone care to chime in on this??


Steven,

I really like the idea of getting your DC up and out of the way. The thing jumping out to me is access for emptying of the dust bag, with it elevated so high. If it were me I'd disconnect the flex hose, move the fan to the back and the filter to the front and build a "box" where the bag is, with some form of "trap door" that permitted emptying into a large (but moveable) trash can. If there was a plexi "window" in the side you could see when to dump.

To avoid the dust when dumping, a ring could be made and, using the elastic ring that holds the bag in place now, hold the bag against the trap door for dumping, removing it thereafter to free back up the floor space.

Jim - I'm having a hard time visualizing what you are saying and I'm interested. Have you seen a photo of a setup like this?


Thank you for the replies! Thus far I have removed the 4" inlet orifice and taped up a couple of leaking connections. My Unisaw cabinet has almost no dust inside after cutting with the current DC system. As I mentioned above, I have a Shark Guard with 4" dust hose port on order.

[Thomas Hotchkin]

When you say separator do you mean the Phil Thien baffle?

I have yet to find a local supplier for 6" wyes. I can re-work the inlet. I already removed. the 4" inlet restricter piece.

Thank you for the info!
Steve
HD Supply, Waterworks has all the 6" wyes, pipe & fittings you need 9115A 117th AVE Vancouver,WA. 360-256-6151 Tom

[Clint Olver]

Here is a link to a thread on how I built a thein baffle right into the same dust collector (but made by steel city):

http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/showthread.php?34690-Dust-Collector-Modification-w-pics&highlight=dust+collector
(http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/showthread.php?34690-Dust-Collector-Modification-w-pics&highlight=dust+collector)
I would unbolt you impeller housing and attach it to the 2x4 on the wall, so your pipe runs straight into the inlet without all the twists and turns.

Run 6" to everything, or two 4".

Get rid of the 4" reducing ring inside the impeller housing.

Replace the Ts with Ys as suggested.

If possible, vent outside. If not, Wynn filters are great.

C

[Steven Wayne]

I pulled my dust collector down today to clean it out. The plan has been to modify it with a PT separator ring and use it like that for the next little while. I'm having a hard time sorting through all of the ways guys have done this and picking one that will work well for me. It seems like Clint's setup he linked to above is a good option, but I'm unclear on how he put the stack together.

Any input, photos, details, etc would be very much appreciated. I'd like to get to work on this soon. Lots of info out there, but I need some advice.

[david brum]

Alan is absolutely right about venting outside. If you're in Vancouver, you don't really have to worry about whatever heated or cooled air you lose to the outside. Your system will be much more efficient without the filter. Also, if you work exclusively with MDF, you're going to be cleaning your canister filter all the time, even with a Thien separator. Fine dust will go past the separator and right into the filter. I have plenty of experience with this. Thien separators work great for bigger chips like what you get from a jointer or planer, but not so good for fine, powdery dust. Venting outside makes the dust collector marginally quieter as well.

The comments about tight turns on your piping are absolutely true also. The best place for your dust collector would be right behind your table saw, with the piping as short and straight as possible. A dust collector of that size was never intended for long runs or bends. Every bend and foot of piping reduces the air flow and thus the efficiency of your system. It adds up really fast.

[Rick Thom]

A couple of things to note. There are numerous variations of Phil's design. What Clint has shown is a separator. The separation process is performed downstream from the impeller and is dumped into the clear dust collection bag. There is also a pre-separator version. This is where the separator is located on the inlet pipe from the equipment, before the impeller. Locating it before the impeller means all the dust and wood chips etc are captured first and deposited in a collector pail, and the dirty air doesn't pass through the impeller. For the pre-separator design, there are 2 versions, One is simply a baffle that is located in the top section of a garbage can or drum (Howard's version) and the other version is called a 'top hat' (Pitbull's version). The 'top hat' is a separate unit that is constructed to separate the dust out and sits on top of a collection container. I feel the preferred version is the pre-separator 'top hat' design.
As far as it's ability to separate dust, I think most of us who have built them have separation in the high 90's%. I ran almost 30 gallons of very fine dust like MDF through mine with virtually no dust passing the separator. There was no dust collected in my Wynn pleated filter We've now evolved to needing only a very small collection bag under the cartridge filter. This is all a work-in-progress as everyone is experimenting and tweeking Phil's most excellent design.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Alan hit all the major points, but just two additional comments:
1) Vent directly outside, if you can.
2) Remove the piece of flex hose between the blower and the bag ring. Replace it with smooth-wall pipe, or better yet, mount the blower outlet so that it's directly at the bag ring inlet.

[Steven Wayne]

Rick,

Thank you for clarifying. I'll be making the Pitbull top hat!

[Rick Thom]

I think Jason's top hat pretty much reflects what is known to work well. There are lots of on-going tweeks since then that may provide small incremental improvements in air flow and the separation. Being an 80/20 guy, I'm more interested in getting the most value for the least expenditure so I follow but try not to obsess over this.

[Rick Potter]

Make a new mount and put the blower motor on its side, even with the bag inlet, eliminating the curved hose to the rest of the DC. This also eliminates the extra elbows on the blowers inlet side. Open the saw outlet to 5", which is what the Delta fittings are. You can then regulate the shark guard to get maximum balance.

Ducting to the outside helps too, if you can do it in your location. Mine leaves no dust on the bushes outside, and only a fine deposit on the pipe outlet, but I don't do all MDF like you.

Rick Potter

[Rick Thom]

Steven, further to Rick's recommendations above, a few pics.
1. bower on it's side configuration....
2. 4 vs 5" TS port - modifying my Delta saw was a snap as the existing opening was ample x-sectionally for the 5" hvac I used. Big difference between 4 and 5" pipe. There are no doubt more elegant fittings but 26 gauge HVAC does the job and is a snug fit for 5" flex pipe.
3. this is my Delta 50-760 setup. As you can see, I like the clear 'windows but all don't share that preference. I prefer my "top hat" made from 1/2" plywood rather than MDF. Can't imagine why anyone would want to cut and route all that MDF when there are other equivalent alternatives. Different strokes... I have found that I can probably reduce my clear collection bag to @ 1/4 it's size and clean it out annually... LOL.
Most of us have used round pipes of various materials entering the top hat (from the shop equipment. There's a lot of discussion about the merits of creating a transition from round to rectangular in this thread which is a primer on the subject http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=563.30.

[raul segura]

Sounds like you need the filters, next would be sewer line design, then much time spent designing around actual collecting area/hood design etc. Chop saw need 3hp to get good results. Only thing I can bring to table perhaps a ramp just over the baffle.
Mr. Phill, I believe once mentioned that it didn't help extending outlet pipe to far into the center of cylinder, But in using a ramp it may help to extend it some. Bill Benze has software for building his design it has adjustments you can make for your own use. You could adapt re-size his ramp to fit your cylinder and perhaps make center exit pipe shorter or trim as required after experience. Unfortunately I have not a picture of this pip and lid. (make a plexy window on side of cylinder to see it work).
Pictured is my idea simulating what Ive mentioned wished Id copied Bills program for the ramp. It works well and the MDF exiting is hard to see but visible. My ramp is rebuilt from the original disc so I could not mate it nicely to the [exit pipe], but as said I believe it makes a difference. Every little helps with MDF. also square pipes have more surface for drag and of course us as little flex as can get away from.Id suggest also using sheet metal for the sides and board for the top and bottom to save on time and weight.

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[Alan Schaffter]

If you build a cyclone or add a spiral ramp to another design using Bill P.'s software, don't be surprised if you need to do some fiddling, fitting, and filling. The design for his ramp is an approximation derived from the mathematical formula for a helix. It is mathematically impossible to make a helix from a flat sheet- it must be stretched and warped to fit.

[raul segura]

"It is mathematically impossible to make a helix from a flat sheet".

Didn't know that, This configuration will widen when the height is kept short or narrow if stretched - made taller which will allow for a good mating to the I.D. of cylinder. You'd have to adjust height of your cylinder later as for the center I.D. of ramp, Id keep more meat on it and trim later. I understand this part is not so important a fit. Id then place the out take pipe to fit ramp.
I don't men to sound over winded if I due. This is just stuff I stumbled over while trying to figure out how to recycle every thing I could $. The green monster there had to be sized down to make this ramp part fit.

[Brian Krause]

I recently "upgraded" my Delta 50-850 by running the fan direct to the collector, knocking out the 4" baffle at the impeller, installing a Thien Type Baffle and running 6" and 5" hard ducting. The increase in power and suction was remarkable, almost like buying a completely new collector. The Thien Baffle does a great job in keeping the filter clean, as long as you don't let the bag fill the whole way up. I would recommend these mods to anyone using this machine!

Brian212114212115212116212117

[Kevin W Johnson]

You probably have already have seen it, but in case you haven't, here is a great build of the Thien Baffle configured for 6" inlets/outlets.

http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=429.0;topicseen

I built mine following this basic desgin/approach only lined the cylinder with hardboard with aluminum roof flashing laminated to it instead of using formica - basically went with what I had on hand.

Here's a creek post of a "portable" version: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ions&p=1607637 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?157024-My-HF-Thien-Wynn-conversions&p=1607637) .

I borrowed from this design for mounting my blower housing so that it sits right on top of the baffle; plumbed with a short run of 6" S&D pvc. Here's another creek build of the baffle, but this one uses 4" inlets/outlets and long runs of flex hose between the baffle and blower. I think you will get better performance if you can eliminate these long runs of flex hose.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?163607-My-HF-DC-w-Different-Version-of-Thien-Baffle (http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=429.0;topicseen)

If you are sawing a lot of MDF, you will want some type of overarm dust pick up on your table saw. I made my own using 4" S&D PVC off a 6" trunk to run out over the TS, with a short pieces of 4" flex connecting to a homemade hood. Perhaps your Unisaw already has an overarm DC?

I built my separator based on the one you linked too. I used aluminum flashing to line the interior as well, mainly to eliminate any static that might hinder dust removal (corian, etc). To set my wall, made of plywood, I cut a circle out of masonite the same diameter as the inner diameter of the separator. I then cut a 120 degree slice out of the circle, keeping the center hole that i used for the router trammel. I then used this 120 degree slice to set my wall, (using a nail to align the router trammel holes) so that it was in a perfect circle. On the top edge of the wall is a foam gasket. The lid made of MDF is held in place with 4 turnbuckles that sandwich the separator to the metal trashcan (I welded nuts to the trashcan, and have eyebolts that allow adjustments).

[Wayne Peterson]

I’m adding this post to an old thread only because it is specific to the brand and model of the dust collector. I deconstructed a Delta model 50-850 that I’ve had for several years. And I used the various parts of the collector to build a much better solution. The pictures below show the steps I took and the outcome.

From two different eBay sellers I purchased the cyclone and plastic barrel you see in the photos. The sellers are easy to find on Ebay. Look for eastcaroga and smithilton. The cyclone came from upstate New York and is larger of the models he sells. I ordered it with a 6 inch intake. The barrel is a 30 gallon food grade plastic barrel with removable lid and a clamping ring. From Lowe’s I purchased everything else except the shop scraps I used to build various brackets.

The wye and the cyclone, and the separator ring and the impeller are connected with metal flex ducting which has much less resistance than the original plastic flex hose from the Delta collector. Using that metal flex ducting also enabled me to make the shortest runs possible in the gentlest curves

Disassembly of the Delta collector was very straightforward except for removal of the intake flange. Removal was important in order to step the intake up from 4” to 6”. the motor and impeller assembly and the cyclone were mounted to a sheet of three-quarter inch MDF. That’s mounted to French cleats lagged to the wall studs. Brackets mount the original Y intake connector, and the original separator ring to the wall. The pipe is scheduled 20 PVC DWV. I installed three runs as short as I could manage. The pipe is mounted to the garage ceiling using special clips for large cable ties.

The increased CFM is considerable. The system draws well enough to pull the dust from my 24 inch Powermatic dual drum sander. Ordinary table saw dust, and chips from my jointer and thickness planer are easy. I have a floor sweep mounted near my lathe and a little compressed air pushes shavings into it effectively.

Overall I invested about $300 plus the cost of the PVC for radical improvement over a portable dust collector. However, the system still has a couple of drawbacks.



I need to replace the Delta canister with one from Wynn. That should improve the ambient air quality while also raising the CFM a little more. The cyclone is already very efficient because nearly nothing makes its way into the plastic bag even when I spin the handle on top of the canister to run the flappers around the inside of the filter baffles.
If I had additional overhead space and had not needed to ensure that the roll-up door cleared the impeller intake, I would have added a larger barrel and a longer piece of flex hose between the barrel and the cyclone. That would reduce the frequency with which the barrel needs to be emptied and it would make barrel removal easier.
A translucent barrel would make tracking when it needed emptying much easier.


All in all, I’m well pleased with the results. While not as effective as a larger system with more horsepower, a larger impeller, larger ducts, and more CFM, this is now working very well for me. Chip and sawdust control are a non-issue, and I believe a different filter canister will give me much better ambient air quality too.

So, for anyone looking for a low-cost method to radically improve the performance of an older or budget model dust collector, perhaps this will be food for thought.