Advice on potential table saw buy -- Delta Model 10

[John W Henderson]

About six months ago I hastily bought a saw on Craigslist because I just *had* to have it for that job I was doing *today*. I wish I'd learn. I've never ever been happy with purchase made for a task when I needed it *now*. Tools where I'v researched several weeks and read lots of reviews, visited shops... I've always loved what I ended up with. You can guess where this is going...

I found a Delta/Rockwell 34-335 on Craigslist for $50 that day. It was a gamble as the tilt was locked up, but got it home and took the whole thing apart, cleaned it, and it worked! Now that I'm getting into woodworking more, it has been nothing but frustration.

- Not easy to adjust blade to miter slot. (So not easy that I've never re-crawled under there to fix it)
- Tilt toward the fence
- Fence is absolutely horrible (I measure from the front and back of the blade every single time with a 1/64" ruler)
- Motor is under the table and very inaccessible
- Motor seems to bog and I wonder about it's health
- Lack of parts (seems like it just wasn't a popular saw and so lots of things are no longer available on ereplacements even)

It's just very frustrating to be limited by your tools. In any case, it got me started, but I'm thinking about upgrading and found a Model 10 on Craigslist for $280 (http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/2512237004.html). Is this a fair price? I found another post (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103229-Delta-Rockwell-model-10-contractor-saw) where it sounded like $150 was a great deal. Trying to find out if $280 is as well.

What questions should I ask? Is the "Model 10" the equivalent of a model number or will it have a 3x-xxx Delta number as well (just wondering if the "type" of Model 10 could matter). Is there anything you would look for? Is this model a good one for a hobbyist like myself? I'm thinking yes... the fence alone is worth it to me if it's accurate and adjustable (My saw is here: http://www.ereplacementparts.com/delta-34335-type-1034-table-saw-parts-c-3275_3334_13696.html. The finger bolt and knob control the back/front lock of the fence onto the metal pipes Never stays straight and the measurement increments have no relation to how far from the blade you are on my saw).

I'd love to know your thoughts!

[Tim Morton]

I own a delta contractor saw...and its a decent saw for the hobbyist...but i would probably pass on that one for $280..i could not find any info on the one you have now, so its tough to know what it is you are looking for, but if it was selling for $50 i would gusss its a small jobsite table saw. My advice...save some more money and keep looking...i think you can do better.

[scott spencer]

John - I don't know much about the "Model 10", but it's a little rusty, has an older style jet lock fence, and steel wings....in a nutshell I wouldn't pay $280 for used contractor saw in that condition with those features. I'd be inclined to offer less than $200, but others may have more insights and different opinions on what's reasonable for it. Good luck!

[Greg Peterson]

I wouldn't pay over $50 for an older contractor saw. Period. Keep shopping. You will find an equivalent machine in this range.

You can usually get a contractor saw setup to make fairly accurate, repeatable rips and crosscuts.

Trying to get accurate bevel cuts is another matter. It is simply one of the drawbacks of the contractor saw design.

[Cary Falk]

I agree that $280 is too much for a contractor saw with a jetlock fence and steel wings. It is definitely a step up from the direct drive saw you have though. Many people find the jetlock fences servicable. I had a newer Delta contractor saw with CI wings and a T2 fence and it was a great saw. I think the Model 10 is a solid saw just overpriced given the fence and wings.

[John W Henderson]

Thanks Scott and Tim.

Tim: Mine isn't a job site saw, it's got a base and is belt driven, but the motor is mounted under the table and the arbor and motor tilt together in one assembly. Cast top, heavy aluminum wings. Here's some pictures from vintagemachinery: http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=3441.

I guess I don't really know what I want. I just would like a saw that is true and "trueable." Mine has a goofy tilt system and with it apart I thought the arbor bearings were loose as when I grabbed the arbor, I could wiggle it. I ended up finding that it was actually the tilting mechanism that wasn't tight even thought it was locked down. The back side rides in these semi-circular slots and the back foot was wiggling. I machined an aluminum clamp to tighten the backside down. But that means I can't tilt (not that I use it that often anyway).

I've read other posts with advice about adjusting blade-to-miter adjustments and it sounds like contractor types have a lot more flexibility with this via the trunnion bolts. I don't think mine even has trunnion bolts. I have to loosen the whole motor housing/tilt/raising-and-lowering assembly and whack it with a dead blow until it's square with the table. But you can't hardly even get to those bolts without taking the table off the base! It was really, really hard the last time. Not a good design, in my opinion.

I searched around a bit more... any thoughts on these?

- Grizzly G1022 (no pics, and seems overpriced from my looking into other people who have bought these:)http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/2532846328.html

- 34-444 for $290: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/tls/2528301057.html

- 62-042 for $200: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/tls/2524602820.html

- Model 10 for $350 (50" fence/table extension): http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/2509166454.html

Thanks for any feedback. I'm probably confined to the $300-ish mark, so I'm looking at all older/used. Surface rust doesn't bother me at all, nor does putting some work into something to get it up to shape. I just don't even think my saw has the "bones" to sustain a rebuild and come out meeting my standards. I'm trying to look at saws that even if not in great shape have the underlying "bones" to allow for getting them in perfect working (not appearance) order. Hopefully that makes some sense.

This also means I'm looking at obscure Delta/Rockwell numbers and so it's fantastic to have a site like this were others may have run across them.

[Cary Falk]

- Grizzly G1022 (no pics, and seems overpriced from my looking into other people who have bought these:)http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/2532846328.html - No used contractor is worth $400. I am not so familiar with old Grizzly numbers but the fence is probably a jetlock style or worse.-

- 34-444 for $290: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/tls/2528301057.html - Same jetlock fence and steel wings as the model 10 you were looking at

- 62-042 for $200: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/tls/2524602820.html - Same jetlock fence and steel wings as the model 10 you were looking at

- Model 10 for $350 (50" fence/table extension): http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/2509166454.html Only saving grace is the Unifence, which I don't like but a lot of people love. It still has one steel wing. I wouldn't give more than $200-250 if I really was desperate for it.

[John W Henderson]

@Cary: can you specify what's wrong with the Jetlock fence? And by "steel wing" you're talking about (what looks like to me) that kind of bent sheet metal type of wing?

As an alternative, what example models would be worth $2-300 and suit my needs? If the Jetlock is square-able and accurate... that's good enough for me, though maybe that's what's not good about it. I'd also be open to looking at other brands; for now I've been sticking with Delta since the things I've heard about other brands seem very model-dependent and touchy (Craftsman, for example). Ridgid and Grizzly seem to be an exception, as it seems a lot of people have favorable opinions about them. I could be wrong, though. Maybe it all comes down to the model after all.

[Carroll Courtney]

Break the saw down into individual prices.What I see is maybe a 1 1/2hp motor 150.00 plus,vintage fence and rails 100.00,base on the cheap side 50.00,cast iron top 50.00 so maybe 280.00 is right at where it would be if I was selling it and If its a plug and play.And for 50.00 on the other saw,dang thats cheap.Break it down and sell the pieces.If I were you and if money is an object, then I would wait till I see a good used Unisaw saw in your area and have at lease 500 in my pocket.Over the last couple of yrs I have purchase two unisaws for 200 ea. which did need some work.Be patience,wait,keep an eye open and there better be pics----Carroll

[John W Henderson]

Some other options?

- Craftsman: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/for/2518451188.html

- Another Craftsman (looks really similar to the above, but just older): http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/tls/2545346323.html

- Yet another Craftsman: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2545212635.html

- Ridgid: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2543583556.html

All of the above have cast wings, but I don't know anything about their fences.

- Newer Delta: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/tls/2527015946.html

If asking for opinions on all these links is considered frowned upon, I can stop. I guess I'm just not sure who else to ask about this stuff and want to make my next investment a good one! I really appreciate the input from everyone.

[John W Henderson]

Thanks for the input, Carroll. Maybe I should have listed more information... this will be in my garage and I won't have a dedicated shop, nor do I expect to do really big stuff. I'm not familiar with unisaw vs. contractor, etc. I probably don't have the space to have anything with an extension table unless it's collapsable. I built a mobile base for the saw I do have so I can get it out of the way. My "shop" is basically one half of a two car garage, but that's shared with storage for everything else, too (bikes, extra shingles, gardening stuff, etc.). So... no indoor huge area for me.

Part of this is knowing the models or at least what I should be looking for so that if and when a deal does come up, I know enough to be able to move on it quickly. Right now I wouldn't feel comfortable without input from a site like this, and by then... it might be sold to someone who knew enough to know the good deal.

Thanks!

[Tim Morton]

maybe the ridgid would be one saw i might consider out of all the saws listed, but at $250, and not $350.

It seems like you have a TON of used saws in your area...so go slow and i bet you find one that works.

maybe that delta with the 50" unifence too, if you need 50" and have room for it...most don't have either.

Cary: i would wager that my delta is worth $400 with its 40in commercial biesi fence and table.

[John W Henderson]

Good to know. I might just go look at it and see.

One question that's still remaining -- can someone list some typical things I should be checking for? My list has been generated due to what I don't like about my own saw:

- fence adjustability, rigidity, reliability, and gauge that actually reads the correct distance
- how the arbor assembly is adjusted to true to the miter slot
- accessibility of innards in order to keep clean
- tilt away from fence (though maybe not a make or break)
- arbor bearing state (my saw whines and sounds like crap when it spins down)
- boginess (my motor slows audibly when cutting almost anything)

What else? And how would you check (for example, if you thing the health of the motor is essential, how do you check?).

[John W Henderson]

Here's a Jet that's somewhat close by: http://eauclaire.craigslist.org/tls/2533712978.html

By the wings... is this an "entry" model Jet and to be kept away from? I have kind of a "halo perception" of Jet as being one of the top saw manufacturers. Is that misplaced and based entirely on which model we're talking about?

[Bruce Wrenn]

I own more than one Model 10. The stamped steel wings aren't any problem. My shop saw (model 10) has stamped steel wing on left and cast iron on right. One day I will replace left wing with a router table. The "Jet Loc " fence is a grown up version of the fence you already have, with same problems. The Model 10 with 52' Unifence for $350 is a much better deal. The fence alone cost more than that. You won't have to go to extra expense of replacing fence on saw with this deal. A T-2 Delta fence 30" (home version of Biesemeyer) will run you at least $200 by it's self. The original Model 10 (last made in either 1984 0r 1988) shown is in a commercial setting, which most likely means it worn out and will need some replacement parts, many of which Delta no longer stocks. I paid $75 for the last model10 i bought. Same saw, but in much rougher condition. Cleaned up nicely, and added shop made Biese clone. We break it down and take to job sites for installs.

[Tim Morton]

Here's a Jet that's somewhat close by: http://eauclaire.craigslist.org/tls/2533712978.html

By the wings... is this an "entry" model Jet and to be kept away from? I have kind of a "halo perception" of Jet as being one of the top saw manufacturers. Is that misplaced and based entirely on which model we're talking about?

Like bruce just said, dont be too concerned with stamped vs cast ...stamped will work just as well. That being said, make sure you are getting what you are paying for...i would expect cast wings on a used saw in the $300 range.

The jet seems to be the nicest saw you have shown so far, if its close enough to go look at it i think i would be interested in that saw, especially if it comes with the beis clone fence....jet has several fences available, some better than others...and i think the beis clone was the best.

[John W Henderson]

Thanks Tim -- that's good to know... but what would be the problem with the other Deltas then? Just their fences? Well, that and assuming I could get them down into the $150-250 range?

That Jet is a bit far away, but I thought I'd list it anyway. I'm in St. Paul. I've found all these just looking today. I bet if I started checking many times a day I'd find a hit soon enough.

This Ridgid TS 2424 looks reasonable? http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/2522685328.html

I found this site which talked nicely about it: http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/TS2424.shtml

[Greg Peterson]

The basic design of the contractor saw varies little from maker to maker. That said, a base contractor saw should cost no more than $50. What will increase the value will be the accessories. A aftermarket fence, mobile base and perhaps blades will push the asking price up.

I would be less concerned about the make of the saw than I would the goodies that come with it.

[Cary Falk]

Cary: i would wager that my delta is worth $400 with its 40in commercial biesi fence and table.

OK Tim, you got me there. You pile on enough accessories and you can tip the value scale. You would probably have a hard time getting anything more out of it in the current market though. Most likely the buyer would be buying the saw for the fence and reselling the saw with their own fence. Contractor saws are going the way of the t-rex. I liked my Delta when I had it. I thought maybe I bought into the hype after I got it. I helped a friend buy a temp. contractor saw while he builds a house. I helped him tune it up. I had completely forgot the flustration in tuning up a contractor saw.

[John W Henderson]

I helped him tune it up. I had completely forgot the flustration in tuning up a contractor saw.

Can you explain this more? And what are the alternatives? Just contractor or unisaw? If so, why is a unisaw more "tunable" than the contractor?

[Cary Falk]

@Cary: can you specify what's wrong with the Jetlock fence? And by "steel wing" you're talking about (what looks like to me) that kind of bent sheet metal type of wing?


Yest when I say steel wing I meen the stamped sheet metal. They bend, flex, twist. Cast Iron adds more stability and mass to dampen vibration. The Jetlock fences had the measurements stamped into the tubes. The scale is not as accurate as the new one. You will probably want to verify each fence move with your tape. The Jetloks also clamp to the rear tube. They can lock non parallel to the blade. Some OWWM'ers think they are servicable. I prefer my Biesemeyer clone.

[Cary Falk]

There is another alternative, a hybrid. New they are only a few hundred under a cabinet saw so it is not worth it. Used it could be a deal if the trunion is not attached to the table as some are.

Flustrations with a contractor saw.

1) To adjust the saw parallel to the miter slot you need to loosen 3 of the 4 bolts that hold the trunnion to the table. (PALS are the best $20 you can spend on contractor saw) The back 2 are easy because they are right there at the back opening. The ones in the front are a pain to get to. The blade gets in the way also. I could tweek the alignment by putting a little bit of pressure on the motor. On a cabinet saw you loosen 3 bolts on the outside of the cabinet and bump the table and tighten everything back up. DONE!
2) Tilt the blade to do a bevel cut and you have to align the blade again. The tilting of the blade and the weght of the motor racks the trunion.
3) Not an alignment problem but the saw was similar to the one I had and it felt like a toy.

[Greg Peterson]

The trunnion is the unit that holds the arbor. Looking down into the saw, it is the unit with the tracks or slots that allow the arbor to tilt. On a contractor saw the trunnion has two strikes against it. One is that it is relatively light weight. Second, it is mounted to the table. Both of these factors contribute to the trunnion racking when tilting the arbor.

With the blade set at 90 degrees, parallelism is relatively easy, especially with PALs. Getting the blade parallel at 45 degrees is a lot more challenging as this requires lowering the trunnion, via shims. Depending on which way the blade is out of whack at 45 degrees you may have to lower one or two corners. Parallel at 90 degrees does not guarantee parallel at 45 degrees.

Cabinet saws and hybrid saws have more stout trunnion assembly that is mounted to the cabinet with the table 'simply' resting on top. The motor is attached in such a way that it does not twist or rack the trunnion when setting for a beveled cut.

[scott spencer]

The Griz G1022 didn't sell for $400 new...tell them to pound salt! (not really!)

The Cman with the updated Exacta Rip fence might be a decent buy...offer to $200-$225. It has essentially the same guts as the Ridgid saw...different bolt on stuff.

I think that Jet would be a decent buy at $200-$225 also.

[Tim Morton]

, a base contractor saw should cost no more than $50.


as Dwight Shrute would say...FALSE!!!

A "base" contractor saw is going to run you $500 brand new, so feel free to defend your above statement...do you mean a 25 year base model saw in crappy condition? In that case...yes..$50 seems reasonable.

But a 10 year old base model saw in excellent condition should get $250-$300 depending on location and maybe even higher if it is pristine and there are not many on the market to compete with it.

[Tim Morton]

Thanks Tim -- that's good to know... but what would be the problem with the other Deltas then? Just their fences? Well, that and assuming I could get them down into the $150-250 range?

That Jet is a bit far away, but I thought I'd list it anyway. I'm in St. Paul. I've found all these just looking today. I bet if I started checking many times a day I'd find a hit soon enough.

This Ridgid TS 2424 looks reasonable? http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/2522685328.html

I found this site which talked nicely about it: http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/TS2424.shtml

The ridgid is a decent saw....and to your other question about whats wrong with the other delta's...probably nothing inherent wrong with them, other than the fence and the price.

[John W Henderson]

Greg, good to know. I'll have to just go look at some of these in a store some time to see. Cabinet saw = unisaw? Or not? Just trying to get my terminology straight. I haven't had to cut with the blade tilted yet, except for when I tried that as an alternative to my miter sled at 45 deg because the slot isn't parallel to the blade. The 45 tilt wasn't either, so no dice. But in buying a used one, it would be nice to have the tilt if I need it obviously. Good points.

If you shim the trunnion for a 45 deg cut... does it mess up the 90 deg settings? As in, do you have to set up for 90 deg cuts, then shim for 45s, and then if you go back to 90, do you remove the shims?

Also, what about everything in between 45-90? Do they all require their own odd-ball shims to make them work?

[John W Henderson]

Thanks, Tim. Maybe I'll just keep watching, then. So you're saying that a Delta contractor saw in decent shape should be 150-200ish? Or is that only if it's got a better fence? Oh, and is the fence not true or is the measurement mechanism bad?

There's another Ridgid that just came up today at a garage sale. It's a TS 2412 (I think that's it, though the response said TS 24120) and they sent this picture: https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=6ba0e383f4&view=att&th=131c9aa42dce5e55&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=1377145520485755622-1&zw

They're asking $265.

[Greg Peterson]

Tim, I am indeed speaking of the old craftsman contractor saw. They are very popular on CL and some look decent, most are fixer uppers. Yes, the newer generation contractor saws are better, or at least worth more than $50.

[John W Henderson]

What about this one? It's a Grizzly 1022 and the seller sent pictures here:

- https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=6ba0e383f4&view=att&th=131ce5997cad0462&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=f_grdogt7f0&zw
- https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=6ba0e383f4&view=att&th=131ce5997cad0462&attid=0.2&disp=inline&realattid=f_grdogyxb1&zw
- https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=6ba0e383f4&view=att&th=131ce5997cad0462&attid=0.3&disp=inline&realattid=f_grdoh4lt2&zw

Looks to be in good shape, but I don't know much about Grizzly. He says it has iron extensions and includes the mobile base and a Sears box joint attachment. He wants $400 which I'm sure is too much. Any thoughts on whether this would be a good model? Or should I just stick to hunting for a Delta in good shape for ~$200 or less? I now know I'll keep my eye out for Ridgids and some seem to like their Craftsmans, but they seem so touchy (love/hate and not much in between) that I think I'm going to pass since I have no knowledge about them.

If the above is decent, I'd be up for at least seeing it and giving him a take or leave offer? I'm fine with continuing to wait. Fortunately, I can "cheat" at work as I have a machining mill that I use where I need precise sizes and flat edges on small things like cribbage boards. It'd be nice not to have to flatten the end of a board because my cross cut wasn't actually perpendicular to the cut, though.

Thanks for any input.


John

[Cary Falk]

John,
I can't log into your g-mail so I can't see the pictures.:)
Cary

[John W Henderson]

Whoops -- I guess I was using the gmail view vs. download option! Try these:

- http://i.imgur.com/tB6Yz.jpg
- http://i.imgur.com/47hqq.jpg
- http://i.imgur.com/kBLPv.jpg

[Floyd Mah]

I have a Delta Model 10. Years ago I noticed that the front bar was curved and the fence's relationship to the blade varied as you moved it. It turned out that the mounting hardware needed custom fitting, else the bar was deflected once was mounted. This detail alone was responsible for a lot of error and frustration in using the saw. The fix for the curved bar is to check the bar with a good straight edge when it is unbolted from the saw frame. If it is straight, then you need to file each of the mounting offset hardware, or use shims to adjust them so that bolting the bar in place does not bend the bar. If you use shims, it should be pretty easy to straighten the bar also if there is a slight deflection. You can use washers or make your own shims by cutting sheet metal (I've used aluminum soda cans as a convenient source of thin metal, they are easily cut with a pair of scissors). I eventually replaced the fence with a Unifence, as well as other upgrades. The saw can be made to be very usable if you put in the effort.

[Ray Newman]

"I guess I don't really know what I want. I just would like a saw that is true and 'trueable.' "
-- John H.

I think this is part of your problem. The other problem is that from reading your posts, I feel that you appear to be in a hurry to buy a TS.

Do some on-line research into the various types of table saws: contractor vs. cabinet saw vs. hybrid. And learn the differences and features.
For ‘zample’:
http://www.toolcrib.com/blog/2007/10/a-table-saw-buying-guide-benchtop-vs-contractor-vs-cabinet-vs-hybrid (http://www.toolcrib.com/blog/2007/10/a-table-saw-buying-guide-benchtop-vs-contractor-vs-cabinet-vs-hybrid)

http://www.rockler.com/articles/table-saw.cfm (http://www.rockler.com/articles/table-saw.cfm)

http://woodcentral.com/bparticles/con_vs_table.shtml (http://woodcentral.com/bparticles/con_vs_table.shtml)

http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1492&articleID=501503 (http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1492&articleID=501503)

You said that “I'm fine with continuing to wait.”

That you should do and save up more funds to purchase a better saw. Otherwise, I feel that in your seemingly haste to buy a saw, you may buy something that will not meet your needs or has problems.

As C. Courtney posted:
“If I were you and if money is an object, then I would wait till I see a good used Unisaw saw in your area and have at lease 500 in my pocket.Over the last couple of yrs I have purchase two unisaws for 200 ea. which did need some work.Be patience,wait,keep an eye open and there better be pics----Carroll “

About 1980, my first table saw was the now-defunct Delta 34-444 contractor’s saw. While it was a good machine, like most saws of this nature, it did have its quirks:
-- Needed to keep an eye on the bevel cuts and blade to miter gauge parallelism Time consuming and frustrating adjustments to correct.
-- It had the Jet Lock fence, which I found not to be a problem. But then again, I did not use ‘gorilla force’ when adjusting the fence settings . Also needed to be careful when cutting sheet goods so as not to bang the edge against the fence. It also had an easy-to-move mobile base that did not require much effort to move the saw about.

In 1986 or ‘87, I bought a Uni-saw and have not looked back. I only have adjusted the parallelism for the blade to miter gauge slots once -- that was after an inter-state move. Saw with the 90 and 45 degree blade stops: set 'em once and forget about it. It ‘sports’ the older style Uni-fence which is very easy to adjust and like the saw itself, holds its settings very well.

Again, see what C. Courtney wrote.

[John W Henderson]

The other problem is that from reading your posts, I feel that you appear to be in a hurry to buy a TS.

I can see how it might appear like that. I think I'm torn. I'd love to have one and get rid of this pile of frustration I have... but on the other hand, would not be able to pull the trigger for both financial reasons (the money may be there, but there's always females involved that need convincing) and because I'm insanely anal about [most] purchases. My current table saw was bought in a hurry for the job I needed done *that day.* Stupid.

My router, on the other hand, I researched for months and bought new and have been ridiculously happy with it.


Do some on-line research into the various types of table saws: contractor vs. cabinet saw vs. hybrid. And learn the differences and features. For "zample"...

Thanks for that. Some questions:

- The first link suggests that a hobbyist (which I am) and beginner (which I am) should be fine with a contractor. A lot here seem to recommend a cabinet saw, despite me mentioning I'm primarily a hobbyist. What are thoughts on that? In reading that first link, I'm all for "beefier." I'm a mechanical engineer and think I know enough to care. Robust designs, well planed mechanisms, etc.... I'm all for it. I have suffered the results of both poor-to-mediocre materials and design itself already and would prefer not to repeat that.

- I'm quasi-space limited. Does that honking table come off or lower on cabinet saws? I couldn't keep something like that in my garage. I built my own mobile base for my current saw just so I could get it out of the way and clean up the saw dust without having to drag the thing.

- For hobby work, how big of a deal is the "beefier" nature of the cabinet saw innards? I love your statement that you set it once and it's never moved. Again, I'm all for that. I wouldn't mind a yearly checkup or something each spring (don't do much wood working in the winter), but if contractor saws come out of alignment from weekly use... that's a real bummer.

Lastly, there seems to be some misinformation between the sites about hybrid saws. For example:

- The Rockler article:

Hybrid saws are equipped with more substantial trunnions and arbor bearings, often a more advanced drive belt system, and better gearing than most contractor saws. In addition, the trunnions of many hybrid saws are mounted to the base of the saw, making precision alignment of the blade with the miter slot and the blade much easier.

- The ToolsOfTheTrade article:

...the true distinction is based on the trunnion design. Hybrid saws use contractor saw trunnion assemblies, which are built lighter and typically hang mounted from the bottom of the table versus the beefier cabinet saw trunnion assemblies, which are supported by the top of the cabinet itself. It's true that all of the motors have moved inboard, but the Craftsman and Steel City designs are the only to use cabinet support with a contractor-style trunnion...

So... do hybrids have beefy trunnions or contractor style trunnions? One says they are mostly mounted to the base, the other says that only two of the ones tested are mounted to the base. Odd.


You said that "I'm fine with continuing to wait." That you should do and save up more funds to purchase a better saw. Otherwise, I feel that in your seemingly haste to buy a saw, you may buy something that will not meet your needs or has problems.

I'm all for this... but at what point does one draw the line and decide, "I'm a hobbyist and almost surely always will be and no matter how awesome a cabinet saw is, I just don't wish to drop $5-700 on one?" Again, isn't there some compromise such that a recommended contractor model that is known for being above average in robustness or design could fill the needs of an average woodworker? Just trying to play devil's advocate here. I love fine things and were I single would have no problem dropping $5-800 by any means. I own a guitar approaching the $2k mark because I care enough about it and love the fact that another human built it himself. Just want to see all perspectives on this.

If the final answer is just that everyone who cares about accuracy should really shoot for a used cabinet saw... then so be it and I'll start my Craigslist hunt. So far I've seen nothing below $800-1800 in my area.


As C. Courtney posted:
"If I were you and if money is an object, then I would wait till I see a good used Unisaw saw in your area and have at lease 500 in my pocket.Over the last couple of yrs I have purchase two unisaws for 200 ea. which did need some work.Be patience,wait,keep an eye open and there better be pics----Carroll"

Keep $200 or $500 in my pocket? That's a big difference.


About 1980, my first table saw was the now-defunct Delta 34-444 contractor's saw. While it was a good machine, like most saws of this nature, it did have its quirks:
-- Needed to keep an eye on the bevel cuts and blade to miter gauge parallelism Time consuming and frustrating adjustments to correct.
-- It had the Jet Lock fence, which I found not to be a problem. But then again, I did not use �gorilla force� when adjusting the fence settings . Also needed to be careful when cutting sheet goods so as not to bang the edge against the fence. It also had an easy-to-move mobile base that did not require much effort to move the saw about.

In 1986 or '87, I bought a Uni-saw and have not looked back. I only have adjusted the parallelism for the blade to miter gauge slots once -- that was after an inter-state move. Saw with the 90 and 45 degree blade stops: set 'em once and forget about it. It "sports" the older style Uni-fence which is very easy to adjust and like the saw itself, holds its settings very well.

That's helpful to know. When you say "keep an eye on..." and "time consuming and frustrating adjustments to correct...":
- How often did you have to do this?
- How much time/frustration are we talking about? A morning? An entire weekend of tweaking?
- Don't most of the people on this forum (simply based on averages and price) probably have contractor type saws? How do they fare?

So, from my reading of your links, it would seem that a hybrid sounds quite appealing, but I'm pretty sure someone in this thread already steered me away from them, saying that they weren't really worth and that one might as well get a cabinet. Thoughts on that?

Thanks for the thorough response and information.

[scott spencer]

...I now know I'll keep my eye out for Ridgids and some seem to like their Craftsmans, but they seem so touchy (love/hate and not much in between) that I think I'm going to pass since I have no knowledge about them....John

John - Emerson made the Craftsman contractor saws for years up until ~ 1997, at which time Emerson and Sears parted ways. Sears then contracted with TTI/Ryobi to make essentially the same saw for them overseas, which they did until ~ 2004. Also in 1997, Emerson had a bunch of capacity, so they introduced the Ridgid TS2412 contractor saw, which was pretty much the same saw they were making for Sear...subsequent models included the TS2424 and TS3612. In 2004, Emerson contracted with TTI/Ryobi to make their Ridgid contractor saw, and the TS3650 was introduced, then became the TS3660. As you can see these saws all share some ancestry and have a great deal in common...enough so that many of the parts are interchangeable. What changes most are the things that get bolted to the main saw...fence, wings, etc. The Emerson made Cman saws have a prefix of 113.###### and the Ryobi made saws have a prefix of 315.######. If the deal is right and the saw is nice, I wouldn't give up on any of them because of the name.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/Craftsman%20saw%20parts/r11.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/Craftsman%20saw%20parts/cman2.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/Craftsman%20saw%20parts/TS3650.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/Craftsman%20saw%20parts/r2.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/Craftsman%20saw%20parts/cman3.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/Craftsman%20saw%20parts/r14.jpg

[Dwain Lambrigger]

John,

I appreciate your anxiety over buying a table saw. I went through the same thing three years ago. I am a home woodworking (ready hobbiest) and I had been using a craftsman like some you showed in your Craigslist images. It was frustrating to deal with at the least. Here are the frustrations I experienced

1) The fence wouldn't stay in place. Often, I would clamp the fence down. Ordering parts from Sears was fairly easy, but more expensive than I thought they should be.

2) The stamped steel legs often bent. I had replaced two before I welded some angle iron to hold them in place.

3) It was underpowered. It is an old, well known joke about what HP Sears promised on those saws. The 3 HP reading was max output without load. It really ran about 1 to 1.5 horsepower and occasionally stopped on me.

I finally decided enough was enough and spent four months looking for a new saw. I wanted a cabinet saw and was willing to put a little work into it. I almost bought a 1939 unisaw for $300, but after giving the jerk a deposit, he called to tell me he had another offer for $500. I gladly took my deposit back and told him what I thought of him!

Anyway, I finally found a Shop Fox cabinet. I bought it because it was in like new condition, and came with a lot of additional goodies. I spend $800.00. Not a great deal, but I am happy every time I use it. I would suggest the following:

1) Be patient. You will find the right deal out there
2) Put a little away. I know $500 seems like a lot, but you are over half way there, and you will have a new world of options at that pricepoint.
3) You have done your research. It seems as thought you are looking for approval on your purchase. In my opinion, no one can tell you what is best. You have to ask yourself, how much work do you plan on doing? If you are willing to take on a full resto, you can buy a uni with your $300, but you will put another $200 into it (at least) How often do you use it? If you are frustrated with a saw, the more you use, the worse it will be. You said you are a mechanical engineer, so that should be a positive. Take your time, know what is out there, and what the value SHOULD be. That is the only way you will know you are getting a good deal. Check CL at least...AT LEAST three or four times a day. You need to be ready to buy as soon as you find the deal. Frankly, I think you should be looking for a used cabinet that will need a little work, almost any brand will do. You may find that you really enjoy the restoration process, and you will get to really know your saw. That being said, it takes time and effort to clean/fix/tune up that saw. I know it will be worth it.

Keep looking, learn the values of what's out there are be ready to jump when the deal appears...

Good luck.

[John W Henderson]

I appreciate your anxiety over buying a table saw. I went through the same thing three years ago. I am a home woodworking (ready hobbiest) and I had been using a craftsman like some you showed in your Craigslist images. It was frustrating to deal with at the least. Here are the frustrations I experienced

Ha! You definitely "get" me in terms of where I'm coming from. Purchasing anxiety is definitely the way to describe it. I did the same thing with my router... but I think I made a better purchase for it. Ended up with a Milwaukee 5615 and it has been awesome. I think "anxiety" can be well placed and has served to keep me honest since I know if I don't research my options I'll not have done my due diligence and end up wondering if there was a better bang for the buck.


I finally decided enough was enough and spent four months looking for a new saw. I wanted a cabinet saw and was willing to put a little work into it. I almost bought a 1939 unisaw for $300, but after giving the jerk a deposit, he called to tell me he had another offer for $500. I gladly took my deposit back and told him what I thought of him!

That's a deal I'd take for sure. What a crummy situation, though.


1) Be patient. You will find the right deal out there
2) Put a little away. I know $500 seems like a lot, but you are over half way there, and you will have a new world of options at that pricepoint.

That's a good point. And it's a lifetime investment (I hope). In mentioning this to my wife, she acknowledges that I have really put mine to use and have been making things. I got into inlaying and have begun getting commission requests from friends and could definitely pay this thing back with a little effort. I have really loved woodworking and have only been doing it for about 6mos. I made my wife a frame with the saw I have now along with some cribbage boards. Some examples:

Frame for the wife last Christmas:
- http://i.imgur.com/VAHGv.jpg
- http://i.imgur.com/QM93Z.jpg

A commissioned cribbage board in progress:
- http://i.imgur.com/yxsTB.jpg
- http://i.imgur.com/J5RnN.jpg

One for my brother-in-law:
- http://i.imgur.com/38U9y.jpg

If I sold enough of these, I could eventually recoup some of my costs...


3) You have done your research. It seems as thought you are looking for approval on your purchase. In my opinion, no one can tell you what is best. You have to ask yourself, how much work do you plan on doing?

Yes, there is an approval aspect of it. Some is probably misplaced; the rest of it is honestly wondering what people who know better would recommend. I will admit that even on this thread, though, it seems that many do know better than me, but disagree with each other (whether a contractor is good enough, how much one is worth, etc.).


If you are willing to take on a full resto, you can buy a uni with your $300, but you will put another $200 into it (at least) How often do you use it? If you are frustrated with a saw, the more you use, the worse it will be. You said you are a mechanical engineer, so that should be a positive. Take your time, know what is out there, and what the value SHOULD be. That is the only way you will know you are getting a good deal. Check CL at least...AT LEAST three or four times a day. You need to be ready to buy as soon as you find the deal. Frankly, I think you should be looking for a used cabinet that will need a little work, almost any brand will do. You may find that you really enjoy the restoration process, and you will get to really know your saw. That being said, it takes time and effort to clean/fix/tune up that saw. I know it will be worth it.

I think this makes a lot of sense. I'd definitely be up for a restoration. That's pretty much what I did with my 34-335. Took the whole thing apart, cleaned and lubed everything. Put it back together. Sanded the hell out of the top. Cleaned out the motor housing, etc. It was pure joy when that tilt mechanism worked again. But... it definitely had more rust in critical areas that I would have wanted. And like I've been saying, I have come to realize the limitations based purely on the design that no longer have to do with how well I set something or tweak it or how many parts I replace. Not to mention it was such an uncommon design that there aren't even parts for most critical things anymore. Hell, ereplacementparts is selling the fence assembly, as absolutely horrible as it is for $405!! It's just that rare. I emailed ereplacementparts to see if they ever buy old parts. I'd happily restock the parts they're out of stock on for 1/4 of their selling price :)

Alright, I think you guys have convinced me. I'll try to lay low and just wait. I think I'll rebuild my own saw once more and try to get rid of it for what I paid for it. I'd still appreciate input on whether or not a contractor style is ever satisfying in the long run for someone. It sounds like they're all pretty much the same but just have better/worse fences and wings. Is that accurate? In other words, are there any contractor saws known for having beefier components... or are they all lighter-ish. Finally, what do others think of hybrids?

[James White]

If this one is a ts3650 or ts3660 I would offer up to $300. Start by asking if he will consider $250. There are a few contractor saw that are known to be good saws. But it is not brand specific but model specific. Those two Ridgids are examples. Others can let you know about the other brands models. I know jet has at least one. I just don't know the model #s.

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2543583556.html

"and because I'm insanely anal about [most] purchases. My current table saw was bought in a hurry for the job I needed done *that day.* Stupid."

The above quote tells me that you need at least one of the "cream of the crop" contractor saws or better(hybrid or cabinet). Keep posting the listing here and those who know the models will be able to guide you. Scott Spencer is one person on this forum that has somewhat of a table saw fetish. If he gives his blessing on a saw I would follow his advise. I am sure there are others here that are as knowledgeable but I am just familiar with Scott as he makes an appearance in many of the table saw and table saw blade threads.

James

[John W Henderson]

If this one is a ts3650 or ts3660 I would offer up to $300. Start by asking if he will consider $250. There are a few contractor saw that are known to be good saws. But it is not brand specific but model specific. Those two Ridgids are examples. Others can let you know about the other brands models. I know jet has at least one. I just don't know the model #s.

Thanks, James. I just emailed them a bit ago requesting the model, actually!


"and because I'm insanely anal about [most] purchases. My current table saw was bought in a hurry for the job I needed done *that day.* Stupid."


The above quote tells me that you need at least one of the "cream of the crop" contractor saws or better(hybrid or cabinet).

Shoot -- what a curse it is to be anal retentive...


Keep posting the listing here and those who know the models will be able to guide you.

Will do, and I appreciate everyone's support!

[Joseph Tarantino]

as an owner of both an emerson built c-man 10" contractor saw and an emerson built ridgid 2412, i'd say you couldn't go wrong with either of the 2 ridgids pictured above by scott spencer. judging from the samples of your work you've posted, the two ridgid's would be enough saw to last you a long, long time (apologies here to the "ya gotta have a unisaw "old arn" table saw or ya just cain't get anything done" crowd). with the proper blade, my lowly 2412 has yet to meet something it can't handle. the only reservation i would have regarding the middle c-man is that the fence seems to be a little less robust than the two ridgids. one small benefit to the ridgids regarding rip capacity is that you can pick up 6 to 12" more right side rip capacity just by loosening the bolts that hold the rails to the table and slide the rails to the right. this negates the usefullness of the fence's ruler, but that seems to be a small price to pay for the increased functionality of greater rip capacity. $150-250, max $300, should get you a saw that'll serve you well for many years. (BTW, the 3650/60 pictured above is missing the support rod that keeps the front and rear rails from bending inward when the fence is engaged to the right of the right side extension wing).

[Jeffrey Cowan]

John,

Noticed you posted about the grizzly 1022 and wanted to give you my take on it. Mine was my grandfathers before he passed away. Since putting it in my basement, i replaced the fence (jet-lock, i believe) with a biese clone that i'm sure i overpaid for, but it made a world of difference. I don't tilt the blade often, but haven't had any issues with it being out of alignment when i get back to 90.

I'm a hobbyist and mech eng like you, and this saw more than meets my needs. If you have any specific questions about this model, let me know.

[Timothy Wolf]

In the price range you are looking I was going to suggest trying to find a Ridgid 3650 it is a good saw and can do most of the work a hobbiest would throw at it. I owned one for a while but traded up to a Jet Supersaw mainly to help a lifelong woodworker who recently became terminally ill and needed to sell his tools to help pay expenses. I bought my ridgid 3650 for $175 (I probably could have gotten him a little lower) but it was left outside for a while and needed extensive work to clean up the top from all the rust. It also needed a fence, I had a Unifence I mounted to it and it worked great, When I sold it I sold it for $350 but I probably could have gotten more if I wanted to wait. I would try offering 250-300 for a Ridgid 3650 without problems, I would offer more for one equiped with an aftermarket fence. The saw is solid and I had no complaints.

[Curt Harms]

One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned. Everybody is "cabinet saw is the holy grail". They're nice....I have a Grizzly 1023 which can be had for around $500+- used. It WILL NOT RUN on 120 volts. No way no how. Any cabinet saw is going to require a 230 volt 15-20 amp circuit so factor that in. Some hybrid saws have the trunnion assembly bolted to the table, others are light-duty cabinet saw setups. Hybrids will run on 120 volts although you can't have 4 things plus the saw running on one 15 amp circuit. The discontinued Sears "Zipcode" saws are an excellent choice if you can find one. The trunnions mount to the cabinet no the top, like a cabinet saw. model 221xx e.g. 22124 comes with a genuine bies fence that's worth $200+ by itself. Steel City was selling a hybrid saw which was very similar to the Sears zipcode.

[scott spencer]

I... Scott Spencer is one person on this forum that has somewhat of a table saw fetish....

Hi everyone....my name is Scott and I have a table saw fetish. :D:D

[Geoff Barry]

Late to the party, but here' my $.02:

I got 4 or 5 years out of a cratsman 315.228310 el cheapo contractor saw I picked up for $100 at a garage sale. Of course, first thing was to get a decent blade on it. But it worked fine for a few years. I eventually upgraded the fence, and it worked even better, but it was *adequate* with just a decent blade. Its lack of power (1 hp) helped me keep it aligned, as when the blade stalled, I knew the fence was no longer aligned right. Oh, and I knew NEVER to bevel the blade, as that messed up all alignment. But 99.9% or what I did used the blade at 90 degrees, so that was less of a hassle than you might think.

Eventually, of course, it's limitation grew more and more annoying, so I kept an eye on CL, and this summer was able to pick up a new (never uncrated) sears 22124 saw for $450, which will serve until such time as I can go to a 220v sawstop . . .

My point being, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Get a cheap, but decent contract saw for as low as you can, get a really good blade, and, only if necessary, get a new fence. I got a Grizzly bessemeyer clone for $220 or so on sale, and it was great (I liked it better than the actual bessmeyer that came with the 22124). Adapt to the saw's limitation, and one day you'll see your mythical $500 unisaw on CL and it'l be time to upgrade :)

[Jerome Hanby]

Amazing how expensive those mythical $500 (or even better $350) Unisaws become! I haven't even dug into mine yet and it has racked up the round trip cost for a trip to Nashville from Birmingham. Glad I made the trip with gas about $2 a gallon instead of nearly $4!

[David Hostetler]

I am curious. Maybe I misread the OP's post, but he was seemingly bothered by the lack of dust collection on a contractor saw, and then proceeds to dig into contractors saws...

I am not sure what your budget is, but I chose the saw I did, and sacrificed a bit in the table itself (aluminum versus iron, and shallower than a standard saw) to get the dust collection and riving knife of my BT3100. Those features were and continue to be critically important to me.

If I had it to do over again, I would still not chose a contractor saw due to the lack of both of these features. But rather I would plunk money aside for a hybrid or cabinet saw with a riving knife...

NOW, having said that, I understand that the **** is on the market, and there are ways to mostly enclose a contractor saw cabinet for dust collection, and THAT would get me looking at a contractor saw for sure. And IF I could address those 2 major issues, I would be well on my way to looking into one of the Emmerson / Ryobi TTI built contractor saws...

[John W Henderson]

I am curious. Maybe I misread the OP's post, but he was seemingly bothered by the lack of dust collection on a contractor saw, and then proceeds to dig into contractors saws...

You may have. I searched every page and only found one reference to dust, where I said:


I built my own mobile base for my current saw just so I could get it out of the way and clean up the saw dust without having to drag the thing.

Not bothered by dust, just bothered by dragging a saw around to clean it. Hence I built the mobile base so I didn't have to waltz it around my garage. Now I just roll it off to the side, sweep, and roll it back. Not a big deal to me. We don't have anything nice in there so a later of sawdust hasn't bothered anyone yet. I mentioned that in the context of not wanting to deal with a cabinet if it doesn't move, as I typically move my saw out to work, and then back out of the way since it's not a dedicated shop.


I am not sure what your budget is, but I chose the saw I did, and sacrificed a bit in the table itself (aluminum versus iron, and shallower than a standard saw) to get the dust collection and riving knife of my BT3100. Those features were and continue to be critically important to me.

Dust collection is not as much of a concern for me, but the riving knife, guard, and perhaps anti-kickback pawls would be very welcomed, as my current saw doesn't even have a guard.


...and there are ways to mostly enclose a contractor saw cabinet for dust collection, and THAT would get me looking at a contractor saw for sure. And IF I could address those 2 major issues, I would be well on my way to looking into one of the Emmerson / Ryobi TTI built contractor saws...

Good to know; I'll keep that in mind and have seen some people's saws on CL with what looks like plywood finishing out the innards to seal them off. For anyone who's done this -- does the dust just pile up in there or does one typically make them with a door that can be opened to pull out a bag or something?

[John W Henderson]

My point being, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

What a great line. Thanks for that.


Get a cheap, but decent contract saw for as low as you can, get a really good blade, and, only if necessary, get a new fence. I got a Grizzly bessemeyer clone for $220 or so on sale, and it was great (I liked it better than the actual bessmeyer that came with the 22124). Adapt to the saw's limitation, and one day you'll see your mythical $500 unisaw on CL and it'l be time to upgrade :)

Thanks for the advice! I'll keep that in mind.

[John W Henderson]

...i'd say you couldn't go wrong with either of the 2 ridgids pictured above by scott spencer. judging from the samples of your work you've posted, the two ridgid's would be enough saw to last you a long, long time (apologies here to the "ya gotta have a unisaw "old arn" table saw or ya just cain't get anything done" crowd). with the proper blade, my lowly 2412 has yet to meet something it can't handle.

Good to know. How do you tell an Emerson built Ridgid? Is that the item # starting with 113.xxxxx that was mentioned? Or is that only for Craftsmans? I don't know Ridgid's model numbers very well...

[John W Henderson]

Noticed you posted about the grizzly 1022 and wanted to give you my take on it. Mine was my grandfathers before he passed away. Since putting it in my basement, i replaced the fence (jet-lock, i believe) with a biese clone that i'm sure i overpaid for, but it made a world of difference. I don't tilt the blade often, but haven't had any issues with it being out of alignment when i get back to 90.

I'm a hobbyist and mech eng like you, and this saw more than meets my needs. If you have any specific questions about this model, let me know.

Thanks! I'll keep that in mind. May at least go and look at the 1022. Even if I'm not buying right now, I wouldn't mind looking more to really get the feel for what to look for and try to pick out different designs/adjustments. I have a great hardware store near me, Seven Corners, and they are generally pretty great about walking one through purchase choices if they're not really busy. Hopefully I could get a tutorial from one of them on what to look for as well, using the props in the store as teaching guides.

[John W Henderson]

In the price range you are looking I was going to suggest trying to find a Ridgid 3650 it is a good saw and can do most of the work a hobbiest would throw at it...I would try offering 250-300 for a Ridgid 3650 without problems, I would offer more for one equiped with an aftermarket fence. The saw is solid and I had no complaints.

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep an eye out for one to at least go see it.

[John W Henderson]

One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned. Everybody is "cabinet saw is the holy grail". They're nice....I have a Grizzly 1023 which can be had for around $500+- used. It WILL NOT RUN on 120 volts. No way no how. Any cabinet saw is going to require a 230 volt 15-20 amp circuit so factor that in.

I'm actually in luck. We've been in our house for about three years and the previous owner used to do auto repair in the garage and has at least 220 plugs in there, so I'm pretty much set for either.


Some hybrid saws have the trunnion assembly bolted to the table, others are light-duty cabinet saw setups. Hybrids will run on 120 volts although you can't have 4 things plus the saw running on one 15 amp circuit. The discontinued Sears "Zipcode" saws are an excellent choice if you can find one. The trunnions mount to the cabinet no the top, like a cabinet saw. model 221xx e.g. 22124 comes with a genuine bies fence that's worth $200+ by itself. Steel City was selling a hybrid saw which was very similar to the Sears zipcode.

I looked at the Steel City website -- they have some really nice looking stuff. Their nearest distributor is quite a ways from me in MN.

[Jerome Hanby]

If I have all the player lineups straight, I think Rigid is Emerson, formed with Sears dropped them in favor of some cheaper OEM manufacturer for their saws. I think the trick is to identify which Craftsman saws were built by Emerson or Ryobi. Pretty sure my 315.228390 is a Ryobi. I've seen online someplace that the "113." prefix saws were Emerson but I don't know that for a fact. This link (http://vintagemachinery.org/Craftsman/manufacturers.aspx?sort=1) seems to backup that numbering scheme (and ID 315 as Ryan.Ryobi).



Good to know. How do you tell an Emerson built Ridgid? Is that the item # starting with 113.xxxxx that was mentioned? Or is that only for Craftsmans? I don't know Ridgid's model numbers very well...

[scott spencer]

Good to know. How do you tell an Emerson built Ridgid? Is that the item # starting with 113.xxxxx that was mentioned? Or is that only for Craftsmans? I don't know Ridgid's model numbers very well...

Emerson owns the Ridgid name, and built the Ridgid TS2412, TS2424, and TS3612 before contracting with TTI/Ryobi to build the TS3650 and TS3660. There's a bunch of different Craftsman models...those with the 113 prefix are made by Emerson, but not all with the 113 prefix are full size cast iron contractor saws with belt drive induction motors. If it's got the 113 prefix, is cast iron, and has a belt drive motor hanging out the back, odds are very high that it's a contractor saw of the same lineage that are generally considered pretty good saws. There were a few with shaft drive motors that I'd be less comfortable with, there were some that had direct drive motors and aluminum tops, and there could very well be other variations that I'm not familiar with.

[John W Henderson]

Sooo... I've been looking around on Search Tempest, a CL searcher that looks at local areas. Would these qualify as good deals?

- http://flint.craigslist.org/tls/2547623187.html
(http://flint.craigslist.org/tls/2547623187.html)- http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/tls/2548555853.html (I'm anticipating warnings about the fence and suggestions to haggle)
- http://grandrapids.craigslist.org/tls/2525224826.html (perhaps the worst shaped one, but cheapest)
- http://springfieldil.craigslist.org/tls/2511814521.html
(http://springfieldil.craigslist.org/tls/2511814521.html)- http://stlouis.craigslist.org/tls/2432089574.html (pretty ugly)
- http://desmoines.craigslist.org/tls/2498133935.html (looks to be in amazing shape)

Just want to know what I should be looking for. Even from the above, there's obviously some crazy variation between them. That one for $600 that's newer looks fantastic. And one can see that some are charging just a hundered or two different despite one looking like it's pretty much ready to rock whereas others look like a really long restoration project ahead.

Are any of these good deals or is one really to wait for that mythical $152 unisaw saw (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?170282-Official-gloat..-Rockwell-12-14-table-saw)?
-

[Tim Morton]

that $600 unisaw on top seems like a no brainer...it will probably be sold by the end of the night....if you want it and have the cash..go get it.

The others could be good deals as well, but i am no unisaw expert....

[scott spencer]

That $600 Uni with the Unifence looks like a really nice deal if it's in as good a shape as it looks, and if you've got $600...if you don't have $600, get $600 and buy it! I'm not a Uni expert either, but I suspect that will go fast.

[Mark Engel]

Yes. Buy the Unisaw in Flint.

[Tim Morton]

i agree...sell some blood if you have to :) :) :)

[John W Henderson]

Well, good to know on the unisaw -- I'm guessing the white is what gives away it's youth (vs. the gray/blue on older models)? Flint is not anywhere near me. Just wanted to see what was out there if I searched a bit further. It was the post about that $152 unisaw that made me think about it. He said he spend $140 on gas and I realized that he must have traveled quite a bit to get the saw... so no sense in looking just in St. Paul MN. I've often found the best CL deals on other stuff in the outer suburbs where you have to drive 30-60min, but they've usually been worth it for me. Road bicycle, Bosch jigsaw, HD77 circular saw...

Perhaps I need to apply the same principle to the saw. Next time I may just narrow it down to within 250 miles rather than 500. Driving to Michigan is not so appealing. But I'd do a day trip with a buddy.

There were several Grizzly cabinet saws out there as well. There's this one in Iowa city: http://iowacity.craigslist.org/tls/2506631918.html

(http://iowacity.craigslist.org/tls/2506631918.html)They don't list the model, but I'm guessing 3hp is definitely a cabinet saw. $550 for it, and I bet one could haggle. Anyway, if my Craigslist-fu is getting better, perhaps I'll figure out what to do financially (as in, convince the wife), and then just wait. I may post back in some new posts as I get ready to decide and start really watching. I've gotten the habit down pretty well, searching delta saw, table saw, rockwell saw, cabinet saw, unisaw, ridgid saw, grizzly saw. That generally gets me the relevant hits and if I do that every day, the ones I've already found from the previous days are purple so I can quickly see if there's anything new.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Cary Falk]

John,
That Grizzly cabinet saw might be a good deal if it has not been abused. My guess is it is an older 1023. It looks white in the picture. All the 1023's that I know of were Green. Whit never showed up in the picture till the G0690 about 3 years ago. If it is a 690 with a Beisemeyer than it is a steal. Another thing to consider is right vs left tilt. It matters to some. Older Unisaws will ber right. PM66s will be left. Older 1023s will be right. I think Grizzly made the switch to left about 5-6 years ago. The $600 Unisaw in a previous post would be a good deal. Nothing magical about a Unisaw though. I rehabbed a 1970 version about 5 years ago. I have a G1023RL now. Be careful with the mythical $200 Uni. Sometimes they aren't such a bargain.

Cary

[Curt Harms]

The one in Detroit (Oxford) is 3 phase. Something to watch out for. The one in Grand Rapids would appeal to a collector. It looks like it has the R-I "bullet" motor, just needs the authentic goose egg cover and the rest of the fence. Grizzly machines from the '90s were for the most part not as good as Grizzly tools of today. The G1023 is an exception IMO; I have one from 1997 or 98 and it doesn't have any issues. A bandsaw purchased around the same time was another story altogether.

[Geoff Barry]

It looks like you get at least some cabinet saws popping up "nearby" (I'm originally from the East, and to me, nearby means 15-20 miles - folks out west have a more expansive definition :) ). When I went from the contractor saw to the 22124, I had to make some criteria to aid in decision making, and here's what I came up with:

- does it need 220? In your case, I think that's not an issue
- is the top relatively rust-free?
- do the motor and switch look OK? (motors can run $3-500)
- is the fence OK? Is it a bessemeyer or unifence? or an old version that will need to be replced (Fences run $2-500, depending on style and rails)
- Does it have a mobile base (can run $80-150, depending, though you can build a simple one a lot cheaper)
- does it have a decent guard? A riving knife? (Replacement parts can be pricey, and a cheap aftrmarket overarm giuard and splitter will run around $350)

I found an older unisaw in good shape with a 110v motor for $550, but it had no mobile base, no guard, and an old fence that would not make me happy. Now, I had a bessemeyer clone I had gotten for my contractor saw, and I might have been able to re-use my mobile base, but I'd still need some sort of guard. So that $550 was more like $900. I ultimately found a 22124 (a hybrid 110v cabinet saw) for $450, re-used my mobile base, and sold my bessemyer clone fence for $150, making the effective cost to me of $300 (I also sold the contractor saw, but that would have happened wither way, so I'm not factoring in that in my cost comparison). The 22124 also has a nice (if pre-riving knife) quick-release splitter/guard. The unisaw would have been heavier-duty, perhaps, but not worth the additional $600 to me.

If you can find an $800-1000 modern 3hp 220v unisaw on a mobile base with a guard, then I'd say that is a much better bargain than a $500 unisaw that will need further investment.

[John W Henderson]

Well... sometimes we're all subject to a boss of some sorts. Talked things over with the wife and she thinks I should only spend ~$200 right now and then revisit a more expensive saw in a year. I made the case that I could spend about twice that now and not have to ever go through this again (or at least not for many, many years). I was a bit bummed. I've been making cribbage boards for friends, and might be able to make some, sell them, and then use that + the $200 she was okay with and buy a better saw. But honestly, I just made some mitered framing for one last night that did not turn out very well. I'm actually a bit embarrassed about it even though it's a giveaway board for a friend who recently found out he has cancer. I said I'd make him one to pass his time during chemo/recovery.

I'm so sick of this saw (checked 90, was about as perfect as I could get and it still cut the miter different at the top/bottom. As in if you went to fit a frame together, the top might fit snug, but the bottom of the frame wouldn't meet because the miters aren't perpendicular). So... I don't really even want to make something for anyone until I have a tool that will measure up to the perfectionism I put into my projects. Even if someone gets something free... it has my initials on it.

Anyway, I'm re-compiling a new list to look at and think I can perhaps stretch that $200 a bit, but definitely not up to something like $5-600 where I could score a Grizzly 1023 or older Delta uni.

Are any of these looking appealing? (Assume I have to talk them all down to ~$250)

- Delta 34-474, $375: http://duluth.craigslist.org/tls/2521550992.html
- Delta 36-650, $250: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/csw/tls/2504896929.html
- Delta (model unknown), $400: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/2528931713.html
- Delta (model unknown), $450: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/tls/2509516159.html
- Delta 36-679, $500: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2489724685.html (looks in great shape and better fence)
- Delta 34-444, $275: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/tls/2546718177.html
- Delta 34-410, $200: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/tls/2524602820.html
- Grizzly 1022, $400: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/2532846328.html
- Ridgid 3650 (not sure, though), $350: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2543583556.html
- Ridgid (maybe a 2412 or 2424?), $500: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2534213090.html (way overpriced)
- Ridgid 2424, $250: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/2522685328.html
(http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/2522685328.html)- Ridgid 3650, $400: http://lacrosse.craigslist.org/for/2525953364.html
- Ridgid 3660 (did they mean 3650?), $400: http://desmoines.craigslist.org/tls/2500003705.html (looks nearly unused!)
- Ridgid 3650, $450: http://appleton.craigslist.org/tls/2547902328.html

(http://appleton.craigslist.org/tls/2547902328.html)So, again, I'd have to finagle these down to $2-250, but there do seem to be some options for sure. That delta 36-679 is pricey, but if people thought it would last me a long time, that might be worth haggling down to $300-350 and asking the wife for an increase :) I emailed and the guy responded right away. It's about an hour outside of St. Paul, so that's nice as a lot of time the suburb sales get neglected because people don't want to drive. It's been listed for a month, so hopefully he'd be flexible about it?

I'm also waiting back on that Ridgid in St. Francis, which might be the 3650 that someone recommended. Maybe I could get it for $250. I can always play the "Well, my wife said I could only spend $xxx" card.

I'm still open to that Grizzly as well, if others think it's decent.

Sorry for the waffling. I love woodworking, but a happy wife makes for far more enjoyable "Hey hon, look what I made" experiences, rather than everything I produce being a source of bitterness and a reminder that I didn't respect her wishes. Believe me, I've been scheming for stuff to sell (guitar, gun...) to make my next purchase my last. Any last thoughts? This has been quite the posting marathon -- I think if nothing really changes, I'll be going for as nice a contractor as I can get for $2-300. Even if I could "come up with" more money, I just think my wife would suggest that it could be put to use for the family or something like that. I don't see her budging too much on this. My friend has a Ridgid 3650 and he's really happy with it and thinks he'll stick with it for life. He's a pretty darn good woodworker and does a lot bigger stuff than me (built a picnic table and wardrobe), so that made a big impression. He also uses it inside, so the dust collection can't be that horrid :)

Thanks again, all.

[Geoff Barry]

The Delta is nice (two cast iron wings), but the t2 while adquate, is not a great fence. Well, it's a good fence - better than the old jet-lock fences -- , but its not a bessemeyer or unifence. At $3-350, though, it'd be a good deal, if it has the blade guard and some sort of mobile base.

The Rigids 3650 have an excellent reputation - $400 seems high to me (at various points in time, before further discounts, they were $400-500 new). They have bulit in mobile base, so as log as they have the blade guards, you're set. $250-300 would seem reasonable if in excellent shape.

The $375 Delta has a mobile base, a Unifence (which some folks really like) and looks like it has one cst iron wing and long rails. Probably doesn't have the blade guard (if its 13 years old), but worth asking about. I'd think $3-350 would be an devent deal here, too, if its in good shape. Hard to tell if the surface is discolored from rust or just the way the picture was taken.

[John W Henderson]

How about this one? General 50-250M1 for $800: http://rmn.craigslist.org/tls/2494670980.html

(http://rmn.craigslist.org/tls/2494670980.html)
This is a General International Cabinet Saw, Model 50-250M1, 3HP, left tilt with a 50" General "T" Fence System. With the current extension table, you can rip about 52" to the right of the blade. The saw has very few actual hours on it and is in fine shape! It comes with all the factory delivered accessories miter guage, blade guard with splitter and anti-kickback fingers, and a dado head insert. It is powered by a industrial grade 3HP TEFC motor using a three belt setup. The General "T" Fence System is made in Canada -- very accurate, solid, and easy to adjust. The cast iron top (including the 2 cast wings) measures 40 ½" W X 27" D. It has a 4" dust chute.
I am the original owner -- it was purchased in 2002 (built in July 2001 according to the mfg plate). I have had absolutely no problems with this saw but need to maximize the space in my small shop and this one is just too big.
A current General cabinet saw in this configuration goes for well over $2000 plus shipping. Do yourself a favor and get this one for less than half that price!
Following are the specs:
Model: 50-250M1
HP: 3
Volts: 230 Single Phase
Amps: 12.7
Arbor Speed: 4000 RPM
Depth of cut @ 90 deg: 3"
Depth of cut @ 45 deg: 2 ¼"
Weight: 370#

I realize it's high priced based on what I just said... I'm seriously considering selling a handgun and .22 conversion kit for it that I bought when I was thinking about getting a carry license which is no longer appealing to me and I don't take the handgun to the range anymore. I've probably got 5-600 I could get for it, so that could make a cabinet saw affordable. This one looks awesome and I think I've heard others talk about General before?

[scott spencer]

This is the General "International" right tilt cabinet saw made in Taiwan, not the Canadian made General 350 (same company, different line). Still a nice saw, roughly the caliber of Jet or Grizzly. $800 might be a fair price, $700 would be better! Is that $600 Uni gone?

[John W Henderson]

Scott -- thanks for the tips. I did not know the difference between the names. The $600 unisaw post has been deleted. It was also in Flint Michigan which is like 10 hours from me! I'm waiting to hear back from a whole host of people. I at least hope to get out and look around. This Craftsman cabinet saw turned up: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2535261405.html

(http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2535261405.html)Don't know the model or anything about it, but it looks pretty nice. I think there's a lot of options above. I'll see what comes up and perhaps offer quite aggressively on the best ones and just see what happens. I still don't think I'll be sealing any deals right now. I just started looking and there's already a ton to choose from. I plan to clean up my own crap saw and try to sell it before moving on another anyway. I may just lurk for a good couple weeks to a month and see what I observe. I really do appreciate everyone coming back and re-posting based on new findings and questions.

[Tim Morton]

you need to bring "the safety card" into play...the fence you have is not safe...the first time you get a kick back and have to visit the hospital you are looking at a bigger bill than $600.

[John W Henderson]

you need to bring "the safety card" into play...the fence you have is not safe...the first time you get a kick back and have to visit the hospital you are looking at a bigger bill than $600.

That's a great point, actually. Even more so since that recent post illustrating pictures. I've never had a kickback, but am very aware of them and make a point never, ever to stand in-line of the wood I'm cutting. But the old saw I have doesn't have a guard, a splitter/riving knife, or fence that will always toe out except for how well I do at trying to make sure the back is 1/64th bigger than I want to cut (which is what I do).

I'll definitely take that into consideration.

[James White]

Scott -- thanks for the tips. I did not know the difference between the names. The $600 unisaw post has been deleted. It was also in Flint Michigan which is like 10 hours from me! I'm waiting to hear back from a whole host of people. I at least hope to get out and look around. This Craftsman cabinet saw turned up: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2535261405.html

(http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2535261405.html)Don't know the model or anything about it, but it looks pretty nice. I think there's a lot of options above. I'll see what comes up and perhaps offer quite aggressively on the best ones and just see what happens. I still don't think I'll be sealing any deals right now. I just started looking and there's already a ton to choose from. I plan to clean up my own crap saw and try to sell it before moving on another anyway. I may just lurk for a good couple weeks to a month and see what I observe. I really do appreciate everyone coming back and re-posting based on new findings and questions.

That Craftsman is known as the zip code saw 22124 I believe. Do a search for zip code saw and you will find its reputation as a winner. It has a real Besmieyer fence and cabinet mounted trunnions.

[Jeffrey Cowan]

Just a heads up, my uncle just bought a 1022 saw on CL in the st. louis area that looked exactly like the one in the link below. The guy was asking $300 and he paid it, I assume he would have come down as the saw had been posted several times.

You are showing a lot more patience than i have ever been able to maintain. Best of luck in your search.


Well... sometimes we're all subject to a boss of some sorts. Talked things over with the wife and she thinks I should only spend ~$200 right now and then revisit a more expensive saw in a year. I made the case that I could spend about twice that now and not have to ever go through this again (or at least not for many, many years). I was a bit bummed. I've been making cribbage boards for friends, and might be able to make some, sell them, and then use that + the $200 she was okay with and buy a better saw. But honestly, I just made some mitered framing for one last night that did not turn out very well. I'm actually a bit embarrassed about it even though it's a giveaway board for a friend who recently found out he has cancer. I said I'd make him one to pass his time during chemo/recovery.

I'm so sick of this saw (checked 90, was about as perfect as I could get and it still cut the miter different at the top/bottom. As in if you went to fit a frame together, the top might fit snug, but the bottom of the frame wouldn't meet because the miters aren't perpendicular). So... I don't really even want to make something for anyone until I have a tool that will measure up to the perfectionism I put into my projects. Even if someone gets something free... it has my initials on it.

Anyway, I'm re-compiling a new list to look at and think I can perhaps stretch that $200 a bit, but definitely not up to something like $5-600 where I could score a Grizzly 1023 or older Delta uni.

Are any of these looking appealing? (Assume I have to talk them all down to ~$250)

- Delta 34-474, $375: http://duluth.craigslist.org/tls/2521550992.html
- Delta 36-650, $250: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/csw/tls/2504896929.html
- Delta (model unknown), $400: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/2528931713.html
- Delta (model unknown), $450: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/tls/2509516159.html
- Delta 36-679, $500: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2489724685.html (looks in great shape and better fence)
- Delta 34-444, $275: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/tls/2546718177.html
- Delta 34-410, $200: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/tls/2524602820.html
- Grizzly 1022, $400: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/2532846328.html
- Ridgid 3650 (not sure, though), $350: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2543583556.html
- Ridgid (maybe a 2412 or 2424?), $500: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2534213090.html (way overpriced)
- Ridgid 2424, $250: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/2522685328.html
(http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/2522685328.html)- Ridgid 3650, $400: http://lacrosse.craigslist.org/for/2525953364.html
- Ridgid 3660 (did they mean 3650?), $400: http://desmoines.craigslist.org/tls/2500003705.html (looks nearly unused!)
- Ridgid 3650, $450: http://appleton.craigslist.org/tls/2547902328.html

(http://appleton.craigslist.org/tls/2547902328.html)So, again, I'd have to finagle these down to $2-250, but there do seem to be some options for sure. That delta 36-679 is pricey, but if people thought it would last me a long time, that might be worth haggling down to $300-350 and asking the wife for an increase :) I emailed and the guy responded right away. It's about an hour outside of St. Paul, so that's nice as a lot of time the suburb sales get neglected because people don't want to drive. It's been listed for a month, so hopefully he'd be flexible about it?

I'm also waiting back on that Ridgid in St. Francis, which might be the 3650 that someone recommended. Maybe I could get it for $250. I can always play the "Well, my wife said I could only spend $xxx" card.

I'm still open to that Grizzly as well, if others think it's decent.

Sorry for the waffling. I love woodworking, but a happy wife makes for far more enjoyable "Hey hon, look what I made" experiences, rather than everything I produce being a source of bitterness and a reminder that I didn't respect her wishes. Believe me, I've been scheming for stuff to sell (guitar, gun...) to make my next purchase my last. Any last thoughts? This has been quite the posting marathon -- I think if nothing really changes, I'll be going for as nice a contractor as I can get for $2-300. Even if I could "come up with" more money, I just think my wife would suggest that it could be put to use for the family or something like that. I don't see her budging too much on this. My friend has a Ridgid 3650 and he's really happy with it and thinks he'll stick with it for life. He's a pretty darn good woodworker and does a lot bigger stuff than me (built a picnic table and wardrobe), so that made a big impression. He also uses it inside, so the dust collection can't be that horrid :)

Thanks again, all.

[Reagen Ward]

Get a cheap, but decent contract saw for as low as you can, get a really good blade, and, only if necessary, get a new fence.

I'll add to that: Get the link belt and machined pulley upgrade, and the PALS alignment upgrade is also a big boost for not much money. My 25 year old Delta model 10 contractor, when combined with a 25 year old Vega fence (52" deck!), link belt, machined pulleys, new bearings, and PALS, was not only able to balance a penny through a full power cycle, it was dead accurate once aligned. It was a great saw - I bought it for $450, used it heavily, then sold it for $450 with about $60 in upgrades. I think $60 for my use was more than fair, and it'll see another 25 years of use. The saw well exceeded my abilities.

[John W Henderson]

Garsh I'm waffling. Can't decide whether I should stick to contractor or follow some of the recommendations to go cabinet.

Found this post, which only mentions a Delta unisaw: http://greenbay.craigslist.org/art/2532963612.html. I bet it keeps a lot of people from being interested because they're only showing wood items and not the saw! I emailed and got a pic: http://i.imgur.com/PifC1.jpg

Pretty nice, huh? Wonder how much they'd come down? It hasn't been listed that long yet.

[John W Henderson]

Just a heads up, my uncle just bought a 1022 saw on CL in the st. louis area that looked exactly like the one in the link below. The guy was asking $300 and he paid it, I assume he would have come down as the saw had been posted several times.

Thanks, Jeffrey. This guy has been re-listing several times as well. It keep coming up to the top, so I think he wants to get rid of it. Is your uncle happy with it?

[John W Henderson]

I'll add to that: Get the link belt and machined pulley upgrade, and the PALS alignment upgrade is also a big boost for not much money. My 25 year old Delta model 10 contractor, when combined with a 25 year old Vega fence (52" deck!), link belt, machined pulleys, new bearings, and PALS, was not only able to balance a penny through a full power cycle, it was dead accurate once aligned. It was a great saw - I bought it for $450, used it heavily, then sold it for $450 with about $60 in upgrades. I think $60 for my use was more than fair, and it'll see another 25 years of use. The saw well exceeded my abilities.

Thanks Reagan. Good advice. Among the contractors, how does one start deciding between something like the various Delta models (36-444 as an example) and the Grizzly 1022... or a Ridgid 2424 or 3650? Or are they all fine choices? Perhaps if they're all pretty much the same in terms of being able to be aligned and stay aligned, I should just make my decision based on the fence.

[Geoff Barry]

This Craftsman cabinet saw turned up: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2535261405.html

(http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2535261405.html)Don't know the model or anything about it, but it looks pretty nice.

That is the Sears 22124 (as someone noted above). That's what I recently upgraded to - it's a great 110v saw. Weighs about 430lbs, cast iron wings, trunions mount to the cabinet, flimsy but usable folding outfeed table, quick-release blade guaard, bessemeyer fence - there'a a lot to like. I found one unassembled for $450, but I'd been kcking myself for missing out on an assembled on for $650 just a few months earlier - I don't think $60 is a bad price, especially as a starting point :). Anyway, this will be saw enough for me until I go with a 3hp 220v cabinet saw someday. If I were you, I'd think about somehting like this, rather than get an old contractor saw that's going to need a lot of work and/or upgrades. Let me put it this way - I think the 22124 is far better/nicer/functional that the most upgraded, best condition contractor saw one could ever find.

[Mark Engel]

Garsh I'm waffling. Can't decide whether I should stick to contractor or follow some of the recommendations to go cabinet.

Found this post, which only mentions a Delta unisaw: http://greenbay.craigslist.org/art/2532963612.html. I bet it keeps a lot of people from being interested because they're only showing wood items and not the saw! I emailed and got a pic: http://i.imgur.com/PifC1.jpg

Pretty nice, huh? Wonder how much they'd come down? It hasn't been listed that long yet.

That looks like the Delta Tilting Arbor saw, NOT a Unisaw. It is also right tilt.

Some people call any Delta cabinet saw a Unisaw. Some Deltas are not Unisaws, although all Unisaws are Deltas.

[Tim Morton]

Garsh I'm waffling. Can't decide whether I should stick to contractor or follow some of the recommendations to go cabinet.

Found this post, which only mentions a Delta unisaw: http://greenbay.craigslist.org/art/2532963612.html. I bet it keeps a lot of people from being interested because they're only showing wood items and not the saw! I emailed and got a pic: http://i.imgur.com/PifC1.jpg

Pretty nice, huh? Wonder how much they'd come down? It hasn't been listed that long yet.
its kind of a waste of time to "waffle" if your wife is calling the shots...LOL.

[John W Henderson]

its kind of a waste of time to "waffle" if your wife is calling the shots...LOL.

Hey! No need to rub it in :)

I do have some stuff I have considered selling... so it's more about taking her $200 limit and adding some sold stuff to it...

[Mark Engel]

Hey! No need to rub it in :)

I do have some stuff I have considered selling... so it's more about taking her $200 limit and adding some sold stuff to it...

I recently went through a similar process.

It started with a used PM2000 for $700. Sold to someone else.
Next up I started looking at the Jet Exacta Deluxe, but still checking the used market.
Someone was looking for a used Grizzly, so I sold him my G1023. Now I had no table saw.
Continued to look at the Jet and PM-2000 and used saws on CL, etc.
Took a look at the Grizzly G0623. Nice sliding table saw, but a little more than I(and LOML) was looking to spend.
Kept looking at used on CL, etc. Starting lusting after the G0623, but it was 'out of stock'.
Got an email from Grizzly saying 'We can get you a G0623 in about three weeks'. Uh oh.
Discussed it with LOML. Placed the order with Grizzly for the G0623.

I love my new saw.
I now owe LOML... everything I have ever owned or will own. (well, almost)
But, I love my new saw.

[John W Henderson]

I love my new saw.
I now owe LOML... everything I have ever owned or will own. (well, almost)
But, I love my new saw.

Yeah, I've pretty much promised away every birthday and Christmas present in the future already... funny how that works. I find you just have to wait long enough for them to forget you've already traded them in and then do it again :)

[John W Henderson]

Holy cow! Is this a good deal? http://greenbay.craigslist.org/tls/2538816071.html

(http://greenbay.craigslist.org/tls/2538816071.html)That saw looks like a golden ticket. It's a hell of a drive, though. Can't tell if it's in the greatest shape -- maybe they'd haggle? Opinions on this? No idea about Powermatics, but they seem to be very well respected.

[Jerome Hanby]

If you can handle the 3 phase and the saw is in as good a shape as it looks, I'd jump all over that!


Holy cow! Is this a good deal? http://greenbay.craigslist.org/tls/2538816071.html

(http://greenbay.craigslist.org/tls/2538816071.html)That saw looks like a golden ticket. It's a hell of a drive, though. Can't tell if it's in the greatest shape -- maybe they'd haggle? Opinions on this? No idea about Powermatics, but they seem to be very well respected.

[John W Henderson]

That cabinet saw did turn out to be a Craftsman 22124. Got this email back today:


I just posted this saw and haven't had any offers yet. Just questions. It is a 22124.It is cast iron, not the new granite. I'm an old woodshop teacher and I like cast iron tables,but that's just me. I love this saw and wouldn't even be thinking of parting with it, except that my son got me a 3hp saw from one of the school shop programs that were closed down. My saw has the real biesemeyer fence and rail system and not the cheaper version that are on the new models. I've looked at the new ones and the workmanship is just not as good.

It is a recent posting (8/15) so I'm not sure how flexible he'd be on price at this point. What would be reasonable for a saw like this? I'm still unsure about views on it. I've read some posts here and on Lumberjocks where people say that the 22124, even as good as it is, deflects, doesn't hold, and just really isn't as great as people think it is. But then others come right back and say that it is?

[John W Henderson]

I think I've narrowed things down again... here are my current contenders:

Craftsman 22124, $600: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2535261405.html
(http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2535261405.html)
Ridgid (3650 or 3660), $350: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2543583556.html (emailed twice, but no response)

Grizzly G1022, $400: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/2532846328.html (would have to come waaaay down for what it is)

Unidentified Grizzly cabinet saw, $550: http://iowacity.craigslist.org/tls/2506631918.html

Owner said he doesn't know the model, got it from a cabinet shop in Milwaukee, and it's been repainted. Waiting for more pictures. As luck would have it... we're driving down to a wedding and literally going right through Iowa City on our way next weekend. If I can get pictures of this, I'll post for identification. This might be a really nice deal.[/URL]

Craftsman 1954ish, $225: http://duluth.craigslist.org/tls/2514684574.html (http://iowacity.craigslist.org/tls/2506631918.html); Bill Huber identified this in another thread and it makes for a potential sweeeet restore:

Other thread on this: [URL]http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?171214-Identify-this-oldish-looking-Craftsman-on-Craigslist
Restoration example: http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=11244
Another: http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=11174

Final thoughts? My wife really likes that old Craftsman. The restoration pictures really swayed her :) The other thread indicates that it's a solid saw with some real potential. For $225 (which I'd try to haggle to $150 or lower if others suggested it), I could get a sweet saw, invest time and paint, and even have money left for some sort of fence upgrade if required (or perhaps a blade guard/splitter of some sort. Not so happy that it doesn't have such a thing).

[Cary Falk]

John,
Something to think about on the old Craftsman. First off it has a 1hp motor . It may be the orginal RI motor that has more power then the new 1 1/2 ones today. It may be a newer motor. By the time you restore the saw with paint, bearings, shop supplies, etc you will be close to the Grizzly with the Beisemeyer. I have been through the restore many times. I have done it for many reasons. The first one was a Uni that I thought was cheap enough. When all was said and done, it wasn't the bargain I thought it was. If you want it as a project then so be it. If you want a saw to do some work, I would buy the Grizzly (if it is in good shape, hew woudl probably take $500)cabinet saw and be done with it. I am not trying to talk you our of the Craftsman, I don't want you to go into this blindly. Just my thoughts.

[John W Henderson]

Something to think about on the old Craftsman. First off it has a 1hp motor . It may be the orginal RI motor that has more power then the new 1 1/2 ones today. It may be a newer motor. By the time you restore the saw with paint, bearings, shop supplies, etc you will be close to the Grizzly with the Beisemeyer. I have been through the restore many times. I have done it for many reasons. The first one was a Uni that I thought was cheap enough. When all was said and done, it wasn't the bargain I thought it was. If you want it as a project then so be it. If you want a saw to do some work, I would buy the Grizzly (if it is in good shape, hew woudl probably take $500)cabinet saw and be done with it. I am not trying to talk you our of the Craftsman, I don't want you to go into this blindly. Just my thoughts.

Good points. I also haven't really found parts sources for the Craftsman... I was kind of hoping to just have to restore via sanding, Bondo, bead blasting, and paint. Thus, the primary investment is my time, which I'm completely fine with if it's a good saw. It'll be a long trek and difficult to decide on, as again my primary concern is accuracy and a robust adjustment mechanism. If this saw is likely worn too much, has a lot of runout, bad arbor, etc... then I don't want it. It would be good to hear from you or others with experience on how to check for this. Will it be obvious bu just looking for blade wobble or ugly sounds when it's running?

I may go look at it regardless and make a family day trip out of it. If it looks sound, then perhaps I'll go for it. I'll probably be wanting to take it apart and have a look inside and check for bad rust or missing components or any obvious wobble/looseness in things. If something like bearings are bad... where does one even find them for something from the 1950s? I usually get ereplacementpart.com hits with google searches for model numbers, but I get nothing when looking for 103.27270, which is what I think this might be according to Vintage Machinery.

Yes, if that guy will send me some pictures of the Grizzly, I may just lowball him and see what I can do. If it's a 1023, I've heard great things and think that $400 would be awesome if he'd take it. Maybe that's insultingly low, though.

[Tim Morton]

that near new craftsman looks nice...but googling it shows that it is a hybrid saw, and not a true cabinet saw...$600 seems a little steep to me unless it literally is like brand new. I might offer him $525 if you had cash in hand and were ready to go pick it up.

That old craftsman will end up costing you more that $600 by the time you factor in labor...and ask your self the gut check question...are you up for that big of a project?

[John W Henderson]

Tim -- yes, that's quite nice. It is hybrid, but has cabinet mounted trunnions. Seems to get pretty much fantastic reviews wherever I've looked for it (model 22124) and it has a real Biese fence. Searching allofcraigslist reveals them for anywhere between $5-800 or so. I wrote him a lengthy reply talking about my plight and initial aim to get a saw for between $2-400... trying to prime the pump. He's a retired woodshop teacher, so I also sent him a couple pictures of my work... have to use all the tools at my disposal here... That would be the most workable saw I've found yet. Ready to rock.

There's still some Unis with "real" fences, but they are really old and just not sure if they are in the same ready-to-go shape:
- 1939 Uni with Vega, $700: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2528403908.html
(http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2528403908.html)- Uni with Bies 52", $850: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/2461928834.html
(http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/2461928834.html)- Rockwell with Bies looking fence, $749: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/2497729284.html
- Uni with 50" Bies, $850: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/2446681471.html

(http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/2446681471.html)There's a couple with three phase. I know I have 220, just never used it so don't know if it's single or three. That might be an issue, but it's easier to re-wire the saw for single than wire in 220V to my garage! They are all pretty darn old models, it looks like.

One thing a friend just re-reminded me about is a guard/splitter. This doesn't have that and many of the old Unisaws don't either. He suggested that regardless of the saw I get, if it doesn't have safety features like that, I'll want another one. What are my options with respect to aftermarket options?

Lastly, with the old Cman... I can handle time. Say, weekends and evenings for a month on and off. That wouldn't bother me. My biggest concern by far is knowing that I'm getting an accurate machine that's not worn out (say the arbor was deformed or something was bent/twisted in a non-major way but such that it affected accuracy), robust, built to last, and will be adjustable and then stay how adjusted. If a Cman like the old one meets those criteria... I'm game.

[Tim Morton]

stay away from 3 phase...you don't have it...and you would require a new motor or a 3phase converter....as samuel l jackson said in pulp fiction...that would have to be one charming pig to make it worth buying a 3 phase saw.

[Cary Falk]

One thing a friend just re-reminded me about is a guard/splitter. This doesn't have that and many of the old Unisaws don't either. He suggested that regardless of the saw I get, if it doesn't have safety features like that, I'll want another one. What are my options with respect to aftermarket options?


Shark Guard (splitter and guard in one)
Excalibur overarm guard
Exactor overarm guard
Beisemeyer overarm guard

Beisemeyer snap in spitter( For Uni and PM66)
MicroJig splitter
B.O.R.K

[Reagen Ward]

I have no personal experience with either the Rigid or the Grizzly - both look quite decent. The Delta, however, I can say has a decent stock fence and lots of parts available for cheap, and was US made, which may or may not matter to you, but always curries favor with me. I know folks who worked at Delta's shops in MS and TN, so that also brings bias.In the end, it's a contractor saw. It can be made to be quite accurate as long as the two rods weren't twisted by a previous owner. It is a lot cheaper than a cabinet saw, and probably more easily resold. My delta contractor sold on the day I listed it, with no pictures. Buy the one you can afford that feels right at the time, sems to be straight (use it before buying), and is available at the right price. All three brands are good.

[Reagen Ward]

Camera folk, in the days of film, used to get all worked up over brands and models of camera bodies, with religious wars worse than you can imagine. In the end, a camera is a box that holds the two of the three things that do matter: The film and the lens. Naturally, the third thing is the person. The body is just a box. Sure, it may have features that are convenient, but they don't matter one bit if the three ceitical components aren't good enough. I said GOOD ENOUGH, not great. My wife and I have only been published in magazines for our work done on blueprint paper with beater lenses from ebay. A saw is pretty much the same thing. Fence, blade, person. The tables matter some, as do the motor and linkage, those are nice features that don't matter if the three critical components aren't good enough. All three choices are fine. If you get one and find the fence to be inadequate, get a new one on the used market and you'll have a great fence for whatever saw comes later. Like a great lens.

[John W Henderson]

Shark Guard (splitter and guard in one)

Awesome -- thanks for providing that. Did not know about them.


MicroJig splitter

Wow -- that's it? That's quite interesting.


B.O.R.K

Not familiar with that acronym...

[Tim Morton]

B.o.r.k Bolt on ripping knife

http://www.the****store.com/category.sc?categoryId=4

[Geoff Barry]

Well, I think you need to decide if you want to be in the woodworking business, or the restoration business :) Some folks really really like restoring old equipment. Others prefer to focus on the wood working. Know which you are, and act accordingly :)

As for your options:

Grizzly cabinet saw - looks like it's coming our of an industrial set-up, so maybe a bit beat-up. If it's not beat-up, or too old (industrial life can be hard on bearings and motors) , I'd lean toward this - though you would need to look into a splitter/guard. (probably $2-300 or so minimum)

Ridgid: looks kind of rusty - as mentioned before, new it probably was $500-550. If rust is just surface rust (no pitting, rest of saw looks good) I's offer $250. Of course, if there's no guard/splitter, you have to factor that in.

Griz 1022: posting is down, so I'm assuming it's gone

Sears 22124: I'm biased here, becasue I have one and think it is great. Far better than any contractor saw, certainly. It's not a 3 hp cabinet saw - it's a 1.5hp cabinet saw, with a great fence and a good guard/splitter. If the Grizzly cabinet saw doesn't look great, then this would be my choice. And you wouldn't have to get anything extra - once you hd this, you'd be set.

Old Craftman: I'm not interested in spending my time restoring old equipment, so I'm biased against this from the start. And then, even if you do restore it, you end up with a 1hp contractor saw with webbed extensions, an old motor, and an uncertain fence. Sure, you can replace the fence, but that'll cost $2-300. If you were planning to restore a Yates 28" Snowflake, or something like that, it'd make sense to me, but otherwise . . . however, if you're that sort of person, then the joy of restoring it may exceed the downsides :)

[scott spencer]

I had a 22124 for over 3 years just prior to getting a 3hp Shop Fox saw...great saw, loved it. 12" solid cast iron wings give it 44" of surface, the fence is great, it weighs ~425# and is very stable, enough power to cut through just about anything if it's aligned well and you have the correct blade in place (mine did great with good quality thin kerf blades). It will accept the B.O.R.K, which I now have on my Shop Fox....works very well BTW, and Bob Ross is a super guy to deal with.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/Bbg016-1-1.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/B_O_R_K014-2-1.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/BBG001.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/RT/rt001-1.jpg

In case you haven't seen inside a 22124, here's a look at the guts:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/SChybridtrunnion.jpg

[John W Henderson]

Thanks for the advice everyone! Hope not to disappoint... but I just came back with the old Craftsman :) In the end, it came down to quite the combination of things. I liked that some here were fans, and the comments on some of the restorations at OWWM were very, very positive. The saw is a 103.27270, which is relatively rare compared to the plethora of "benchtop" Cmans more commonly found around.

I was really, really interested in that 22124, but at the end of the day my wife just wasn't comfortable with a $600 saw. Bummer, as I think it was by far the most capable and ready-to-go right now deal that there was. I never heard back from the Iowa Grizzly cabinet saw guy, and couldn't get the Ridgid 3650 owner to write back after two attempts either.

In response to the woodworker vs. restorer comment... I think I'm both :) I really do like rebuilding things. My road bike is a 1984 Schwinn and before I rode it (aside from when I bought it), I took the entire thing apart and rebuilt it. Just rebuilt my older HD77 circular saw a couple weeks ago, too. Just cause.

I am a tinkerer and really look forward to putting some love into this saw. I think it will turn out really nicely and I'm not so bothered by any of the issues. I think I can make due with it just fine for my hobby projects -- it seems extremely well built thus far, and again, the comments by other owners made a big impact here as well. The same would have been true with the 22124 as I don't own one, so praise from those who do makes a big impact.

Anyway, I'll start a new thread on the restore and probably double post here and at OWWM, as I think it would be a valuable thread for both places. I'm thinking about a month. It's in really good shape, so not anticipating anything expensive or extensive. I also happen to have access to a bead blaster, machining mill, lathe, automotive repair equipment (sanders, spray guns), etc. through work... so that will help.

Thanks sooooo much for all the input. I think I did the best I could for the time being. The cabinet saws that were out there (aside from the hybrid Cman) would have had the same limitations (fence, guarding, etc.) and been more expensive. I realize they would have been a definitely lifelong saw... but the wife is happy with what the wife is happy with.

This was my first longer-ish experience on a thread with Creekers and I've truly appreciated everyone's input. Thanks so much for such a great round of suggestions and input. I'll be sticking around!

[James White]

John,

One of the rules here. No pictures. It didn't happen. We like pictures!

James:)

[John W Henderson]

One of the rules here. No pictures. It didn't happen. We like pictures!

Haha! I can do that. I took pictures as soon as I got home :) Drove 2.5 hrs north with my wife and youngest daughter (1 yr) to lake Superior, got the saw, had lunch overlooking a lift bridge in Duluth, MN, had dinner at the sister in law's on the way back and then wrestled that beast out of our van.

- Front: http://i.imgur.com/fteB0.jpg
- Back: http://i.imgur.com/Z8n3E.jpg
- CI wings and some new blades that came with it: http://i.imgur.com/Ux0TL.jpg
- Fence, F&B rails, miter gauge, a Sears "universal jig," and some misc old blades: http://i.imgur.com/x6qEZ.jpg

So there ya go. I was bummed that the original owner cut a hole in the front for that door. It should look like a solid cabinet. I'm going to weld something in there and Bondo it smooth. All in all it's in fantastically good shape. Just a little rust toward the bottom of the cabinet and that's about it. I think it will clean up really nicely. Couldn't get over how these can look when done: http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=11244
(http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=11244)
Oh, and I could not believe how quiet induction motors are. Mine has an under table mounted universal motor. This thing is so darn quiet. It's crazy. I've been missing out!

Look for me to start a refurb thread soon. First I've got to get my other saw cleaned up, put together, and sold, though!

[scott spencer]

Now that it's official...congrats! That's a pretty sweet refurb project. Have fun, and be sure to get a decent blade for it.

[James White]

John,

Congratulation! It looks like you hit the sweet spot for your price range/needs. I have never seen that saw before. It certainly looks well built. This whole thing has been an adventure for you and now your family. Looking forward to seeing the restoration.

James

[jay gill]

I have the ridgid 3650 and find it to be a nice saw. U have added a route table to the right side. I find the built in base to be a very nice feature in my small shop as I am always moving things around as needed. The trunion adjustment is a lever on the back above the motor that moves the whole assembly one the bolt are loosened. I was able to square to

[jared herbert]

you must have eaten at Grammas

[jay gill]

I have the ridgid 3650 and find it to be a nice saw. U have added a route table to the right side. I find the built in base to be a very nice feature in my small shop as I am always moving things around as needed. The trunion adjustment is a lever on the back above the motor that moves the whole assembly one the bolt are loosened. I was able to square to(sorry folks I really did write more before I clicked 'Post Reply' here is the rest)I was able to square the blade to < than 0.001" to the miter slot - diminishing returns after 2 hours of no betterment led me to stop- and the fence to dead on perfect. I've been more than happy with everything I've had to do with the saw. I also find the flat poly v belt to run very smooth and impart little or no vibration to the blade, and the solid cast table and wings plus the router table I've added make a handy extra bench surface when I'm at various project stages other than cutting.