Archival dyes -- Jamie Donaldson

[Bill Neddow]

I did not want to hijack an earlier thread on dyes, but Jamie Donaldson mentioned the importance of archival quality dyes when it comes to light fastness. I know Jamie has been doing some work in finding good, light fast dyes. Jamie, would you (or anyone else exploring this) be kind enough to to give the rest of us a helping hand?

Is there such a thing as a really light fast food safe dye?

I make mostly salad bowls -- not hollow forms. I know my bowls will end up with food in them at some time or other (I hope!), so I cannot use dyes unless they are food safe. And, I certainly do not want them to fade!

[Jim Burr]

I just went through a little research for a piece a few weeks ago. Archival ink use a pigment(s) as opposed to dyes ensuring colorfastness over time. A little like using a crayon...which doesn't fade over time and a food dye which will. That's all I have!

[Steve Schlumpf]

I am interesting in finding out what everyone recommends for a dye that is light-fast. I know you can use archival pigments but anytime I think pigment, I think of a stain and how it muddies the grain. I may be wrong in that perception and am willing to experiment with options when it comes to color. Also, with no knowledge of paints/pigments, I have no concept of what to use, how to mix or apply. Hopefully, once the discussion gets started, folks will offer their opinions as well as the basic how-to in applying the color.

[Reed Gray]

While I don't dye anything, I have heard of wood people using Proceon, or some name like that which is a common fabric dye. It penetrates and adheres to the fiber, and from some old tie dye shirts I have, it is very durable.

Tie Dye, the official camo of Eugene.......

robo hippy

[John Keeton]

I am sure Jamie will chime in on this as I have been the fortunate recipient of some of his knowledge on this subject. I know one of the things Jamie uses is acrylic paint. One thought I recently had was the possibility of using airbrush paints since they are ground extremely fine, and should dissolve well into the wood.

[Paul Williams]

I used acrylic paint on carved decoys and birds and have some carvings that are 15 to 20 years old. They do not appear to have faded. However they have not been in direct sunlight for any length of time. In preserving the detail on a carving it is common to apply the paint as many light wash coats. I have done that on a few turnings and found interesting grain effects on some.

[Dan Hintz]

Subscribing :)

[Joe Landon]

There is a wealth of information at this link:

http://www.craftsman-style.info/finishing/013-water-stains.htm

[Paulo Marin]

I did not want to hijack an earlier thread on dyes, but Jamie Donaldson mentioned the importance of archival quality dyes when it comes to light fastness. I know Jamie has been doing some work in finding good, light fast dyes. Jamie, would you (or anyone else exploring this) be kind enough to to give the rest of us a helping hand?

Is there such a thing as a really light fast food safe dye?

I make mostly salad bowls -- not hollow forms. I know my bowls will end up with food in them at some time or other (I hope!), so I cannot use dyes unless they are food safe. And, I certainly do not want them to fade!

Absolutely GREAT post Bill. Please count me in on that question. I long to get involved with dyes.. Thanks
Paulo Marin

[Jamie Donaldson]

205148 205149 As a photographer, starting out in the fine art B&W print discipline, I was always concerned about the archival qualities of all my materials. Several years ago I became concerned about aniline dyes when my wife had 2 of her aniline dyed reed baskets placed in a gallery front window, and in 6 weeks the color was gone! As an old photographer I had the same problems when the first chromogenic color printing processes came along, and then again with the first few inkjet color digital printers. Epson solved the fast fading with pigments, and that has now carried over into many other areas of color production. Gary Sanders is a well known turner that has been experimenting with color permanence for many years, and I took a class with him at the Folk School 3 yrs. ago to pick his brain. His research has shown that acrylic paints and drawing ink pigments are quite long lasting, and soluble in both alcohol and water for ease of use. TransTints are metallic acid dyes that are also said to be light fast, but I have no proof to confirm that claim. There are many false claims about the lightfastness of many materials on the market, and few standards to serve as universal yardsticks for such claims. There is no assurance that all alcohol or all waterbased materials are either good or bad, so there is no standard for truth in the claims of many manufacturers. I am posting the first piece that I dyed with Jacquard brand aniline dye left from my wife's stash, and there is a devastating difference of before and after a year of exposure to fluorescent lighting in a gallery.

[Bill Neddow]

Yes, Joe. This is excellent. It is part of a series of articles and here is another link to another article I missed when I first started looking at this site. This second article has tons of info -- but, nothing that I have been able to see about food safety. Maybe is is just a thing for bowl turners and toy makers.

One of the problems I have encountered is that companies are sometimes reluctant to tell you what is in their stain. It the dye may be in a family that is food safe and light durable -- but it may have things added to enhance other qualities while compromising the food safety.

Reed, I have also seen some very favorable comments about Jacquard Procion MX dye. It seems to be food safe-- but I cannot find any confirmation.

[Bill Neddow]

Hi Jamie

I guess you were posting at the same moment I was. Boy, this just doubles my caution! As I said, I had heard that the Jacquard dye was light fast. It is meant to dye cloth. But, it certainly does not keep its color in wood! I saw this beautiful bowl and the effect of light on it on another website and this is what started me off on my quest for some answers. The bowl is still a beautiful form -- but it was much prettier when you -- not the light source -- chose the color.

[Dan Hintz]

There is no assurance that all alcohol or all waterbased materials are either good or bad, so there is no standard for truth in the claims of many manufacturers.
This should not be surprising, however, as the water or alcohol is merely a carrier for the color. It disappears within a few minutes/hours of application, and therefore should have no effect on light-fastness.

[Ruth Niles]

I have just started thinking about color enhancing and reading as much as possible. I do have a few questions.

Jamie mentioned the piece faded after being in a gallery window for 6 weeks. That's a long time to be in a window and wouldn't just about anything fade with that amount of exposure? Would natural wood fade from equal exposure?

I'm thinking about salad bowls, which is what I turn. I picture them being kept in a kitchen or on a diningroom table with not a lot of constant light exposure.

Food safe.........what does that actually mean? Seriously, I have thought about it for years. All treenware was left natural for centuries, was there some research or findings that found people got sick or died from something in the wood or, if there was a finish, from that? I know people are allergic to all sorts of stuff, how much or how hard do they have to scrape the bowl to get what amount of finish that they get sick? I may stop making salad bowls because it's getting a bit stressful.

Thanks for any clarification.

Ruth

[Norm Zax]

Heres a brief course:
The lightfastness or permanence of a pigment is its resistance to change on exposure to light. This depends on the chemical nature of the pigment, its concentration, and the medium in which it is employed — watercolour, acrylic, polyurethane.
When choosing a dye or pigment, look for lightfast indications on its label (not always there). Two popular standards for permanence are: ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials standard) established in 1984, whose lightfastness ratings are:
ASTM I — Excellent Lightfastness
ASTM II — Very Good Lightfastness
ASTM III — Not Sufficiently Lightfast to be used in artists’ paints
Also the B/S (British Standard) woolscale rating for pigment lightfastness goes from 8 which is absolutely lightfast to lower numbers which are progressively less so.

Can fading be prevented by using a UV protector? Unfortunately, ultraviolet is not the only kind of light that causes damage.

Carrier - as Dan says, these have little effect and have produced erroneous misconceptions such as - alcohol dyes are not lightfast.
General dye groups - Basic dyes (bad lightfastness), Acid (average to good), Direct (same as Acid), Solvent and Metalized (improved lightfastness). Archival inks are made to last longer and usually work best with certain archival papers. To make these inks, companies choose lightfast dyes but usually pigments. For example, to make a red archival ink, one of two dozen red pigments is chosen. It is usually more expensive and has less hiding power but resists light somewhat more.

Finally, a few words on the difference between dyes and pigments - there are three main physical differences and these affect the working qualities and performance of the stain. The differences are size, how they attach to the wood and lightfastness.
1.Size - Pigment particles in most wood stains are about 1-2 microns (viewable under a magnifying glass). When a pigment stain is applied to wood and wiped off, the particles get lodged in pores. On porous woods like oak the stain accentuates the pore structure. By comparison, dye molecules are much much smaller. As a result, dye colors evenly regardless of the pore structure of the wood and light is not blocked by it (unlike in a pigment), but absorbed and transmitted. This allows dyes to accentuate grain and figure even though the dye color is bold or dark. John is correct to say that in some situations the pigment will cause muddiness.
2.Method of Attachment - Pigment requires a binder (acrylic, epoxy, polyurethane, etc) to glue it to the surface of wood. This is a mechanical attachment. A dye is in solution and its molecule attaches chemically to the wood molecules. This is why dyes do not require a binder like pigment does. Note that water dyes penetrate the deepest because of wood's nature but Industry prefers solvents because of less sanding.
3.Lightfastness - dyes are in general more vulnerable and some dyes are more lightfast than others (metallized dyes are usually best). The solubility of a dye does not determine its lightfastness, it's chemistry does. If you need a red dye, ask the supplier for such a red with higherlightfastness.

I did not cover the issue of particular manufacturers. Perhaps one or another offers higher fastness because it carefully chooses its dyes. The solution to this is either word of mouth or a careful experiment: buy three greens (for example), dilute and apply them the same on evenly prepared wood panels, 3 of each. Put one of each outside on a slight incline facing the East. Once a week brush off dust and review. Leave one of each in a drawer ("control") as a standard and leave the third on a top shelf facing a neon (in the office?). This is quite similar to what I did for a few years in a paint factory. Finally, tell us what you found.

[phil harold]

Jamie mentioned the piece faded after being in a gallery window for 6 weeks. That's a long time to be in a window and wouldn't just about anything fade with that amount of exposure? Would natural wood fade from equal exposure?

IF my Car interior faded in 6 weeks i would be pissed!
some woods darken in the sun, like cherry

[Reed Gray]

Another point that hasn't been covered is the finish. Having some UV screen agents in it can help as well. Once I took a piece of purple heart that was freshly milled, and left it on the dash board of my car for the summer which included a month in Colorado at altitude. I dipped it half way in Spar Varnish. The dipped half kept its color very well. Then too, there are penetrating finishes and surface finishes, and I have heard of people using Armor All.

robo hippy

[Jon Nuckles]

Thanks for all the helpful posts. Like a lot of others, it seems, I want to know more about this subject. If anyone is willing and able to suggest sources and brand names they have used with success, I know I'd appreciate it.

[Harvey Ghesser]

Norm,

Tried to PM you but your PM box is full:eek:


Harvey

[Bill Neddow]

Excellent short course.

I had been kind of leaning toward exploring metallized dyes. I even saw one comment on the web that they are sometimes used as food dyes. But food dyes have a reputation for fading. Is this only the older types of food dyes? Are they actually being used as food dyes -- which would indicate they are food safe?

Why can't I ever find something simple to explore!

[Lionel Mercier]

I do not know the strength of the fabric dye I use, versus the light
I try not to expose directly because I think the light finally pard insipid all
my wife tells me that the natural dyes are more resistant (look at the ethnic tapestry) and tomorrow she will buy the India ink
I'll try that.
Many thanks to Norm for his synthesis

That's a good thread

[Joe Landon]

I stopped by Marcia Evans Gallery in the Short North Arts district, downtown Columbus Ohio. Marcia represents me and has 5 of my vessels displayed in her gallery. The vessels are close to a window and get several hours of direct sunlight. I was apprehensive leaving them several months ago due to the light fast controversy that keeps getting stirred up. Four of the vessels are my signature vessels with aniline dyes and one natural cherry vessel. The only shift in color occurred on the cherry vessel. It is developing a beautiful dark cherry patina. The vessels colored with aniline dyes are as bright and gorgeous as the day I applied the dye. I have also placed a maple pen that has my signature aniline dyes on my truck console. It has been there for 3 years and over 100,000 miles. It shows no sign of fading.

[Jamie Donaldson]

Joe- part of the problem with using dyes is that the term "aniline" is generic to many types and brands of dyes. What brand of aniline dyes are you finding to be lightfast? Some sources say alcohol or spirit based dyes are safe, others say use only water based dyes, then another source contradicts both?