Lasers, do you get what you pay for?

[Jeff Monson]

I'm looking for some advice on Laser quality. I'm in the market for a mahine but have very limited experience with them, I have seen a demo on an Epilog Helix 24. I'm looking to do mostly novelty items on wood. The Epilog comes in at around 18K for a 50 watt. I know there are cheaper lasers out there, but is the quality of the finished product lesser on a less expensive machine?? I'd also love to hear some recemmondations from laser owners as to what they own, or what they would buy, if they had to purchase again.

[Dee Gallo]

Hi Jeff,

This is a topic very well covered in previous threads, so you can search the forum (use Advanced Search feature at the top right of this page) and come up with pros and cons for every brand, power level and size laser. Personally, I've had 3 Epilogs and no complaints. "Quality" is an interesting term, it depends on what you are referring to... reliability, ease of use, support services, accessories and software compatibility are some features to consider besides "burns wood". Every CO2 laser will burn and cut wood. The quality of the finished product depends more on the file prep than the laser type.

If I were to buy another one, I'd probably get another Epilog, although the Trotec Speedy looks very tempting to me.

cheers, dee

[Mike vonBuelow]

All demos will look great... your artistic skill will have some bearing on output & what you can charge. Get something you can afford.

I love my Mercury because of the opening side doors... only wish my laser bed was bigger. But I'm also just learning.

FWIW

[Jim Reinhard]

Another vote for gcc.I am very happy with it so far .I oppted for no support in setup to save money ,I am the kind of person that can figure just about anything out as far as setting stuff up like this and would not recomend anyone else not getting the setup trainig unless you are keen with this sort of thing. I did have a few problems that turned out to be my fault .(I had no outlet in my garage and ran a new 220 outlet. I had both lines on the same leg .So it was 2-110s not 220 for those that know electric you know what I mean).My piont being I called support and they answered quick and were very helpfull with questions I had . My sales rep is great and always answers my e-mails Quickly and would recomend him anytime.I have only had it for a month so I cant say about reliability yet .But so far all is working perfect(ahhh hope I didnt just jinks myself).I looked at both uls and epilog and they seem to be great machines.Just could not pass on the price of the new mercury.It was a few grand less and has the front and back opening doors ,smart center ,easy to use driver..I probably sound like a salesmen for them but am just very happy with my choice. you can look at my old posts and see i almost went with the others.I do have to say there manual is not very informative ,so I read the epilog one that explaing thing better as far as cutting power and speed help/recomondations.But thats where the setup training would have come in handy.

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm not sure how to answer that. My guess is that people that buy import, low cost lasers are quite happy with them and think that they got a great value for the money, while people that have brand name, more expensive machines, are quite happy with them and think they got a great value for the money.

I think picking a laser is a very cloudy subject. There are dozens of threads on here where people bought low cost import machines and they jumped in, rewired something, changed this, made that, etc., and got it working like a champ. That might be great if you are the type of person that can do that, but if you're a single mom, looking to do some extra work on the side, and don't know much about electronics or fixing mechanical things, then that choice might be a much larger risk for you.

You might be doing something as a extra income generator, while the next person is using it in a daily production environment, where time is critical. To you, taking 15 seconds longer means nothing, to someone else, 15 seconds per part could pay for the entire machine in months.

There's just too many variables for anyone to be able to answer that. Only you know the variables.

I will bring up one point. Keep in mind, buying a laser is a deal with plenty of negotiation room built in. If they are asking for $18,000, offer them $15,000 and see where it comes back. I'd not pay $18,000 for a Helix on a good day these days, and I owned one. You can get down a fair amount on that "asking" price. Don't be afraid to negotiate. I think that's probably the most common mistake new laser buyers make (we made the same mistake). We think it's like walking into Home Depot and the price is what it is. That's not the case at all. If you can't get a 50W Helix for $16,000-$16,500, then you need to shop around. I can think of two other machines that you could get in 50W for that price.

[John Noell]

I'd add that a used machine often comes with six months warranty, and you stil get lifetime technical support with the USA models. The cost of the repairs I've made is less that what I saved by buying used.

[Dee Gallo]

Good point John. My third Epilog was a used one (bought through the classified ads HERE at SMC!) and it cost about half what a new one was plus I got a bunch of extras (rotary, PhotoGrav) . Never had a minute's trouble with it. So if you can find one and do your homework, you can get a good deal.

[Greg Bednar]

I just had tour of the Epilog Laser company by Mark Schwarz at their facility at 16371 Table Mt. Parkway; Golden,CO. Mind you, this is the only facility regarding CO2 lasers I have ever toured so take this FWIW. See other fellow creeker's input for their feelings on this and other machines. But as far as and Epilog Laser, I was impressed with the entire operation from top to bottom. I was allowed to freely converse with technicians on my tour and it was very informative. I, as one of many, own an Epilog and I'm happy with my decision to purchase a Mini-24.

I realize I may get spanked for this post, as it may seem like a plug, but I consider it to be an answer to your question and an FYI in addition to the FWIW. Others will I'm sure feel free to chime in with their favorites and you have to be the final judge.

Yes, the machines are more expensive than their Oriental counterparts, personally, I like NOT having to water cool my machine with 50KV scooting through the unit, that's just me. I enjoy their unbridled English speaking technical support. I revel in the fact that it was produced in the U.S.A. Yes, yes, I know that just like a car if you look under the hood, you might find a foreign made semi-conductor in their, but the machine is assembled in Colorado, tested in Colorado, and that is where their tech support is located - in the same building not scattered throughout call centers around the globe. I like the fact that they have a "boneyard" of sorts where their techs can go directly to any machine and look at it and tell you exactly where the part is located and what you have to do in the event of a maintenance issue.

Perhaps it was the clean air while I was out in Colorado that had an effect on my response to your post, or perhaps it was the beer direct from the Coor's brewery in Golden, Colorado, ..., but I don't think so. I've had my machine for almost 2 years and the biggest problem I ever had was locating the tech support number on the front cover of the manual because I misplaced the manual. I realize that my purchase of the machine in relation to my tour was like putting the cart before the horse, but it was such a great horse and a fantastic cart to boot!!

So that's my humble epistle to a fellow Creeker. Take it FWIW and like Dee said, slog through the forum to find answers to your query, and make the informed decision for yourself, that's what I did. This forum is a cornucopia of information. I made my decision with the help of information contained on this forum, and I am happy with it. I hope you are happy with your decision in whatever machine you end up with. But for me in the brief period of time I have owned it, my little Mini-24 from Golden, CO has been worth it.

disclaimer: I don't work for Epilog, I have received no gratuities from Epilog, nor am I paid my Epilog or any other entity for this post. I have no vested interest in the company ( it is privately held BTW ) - So moderator's please don't spank the messenger, and don't flame me because I'm just the keyboard player. :-)

[Mike vonBuelow]

yes, forgot to add, check often the SMC Classifieds!

also, I'll concur with Scott's statement
"My guess is that people that buy import, low cost lasers are quite happy with them and think that they got a great value for the money, while people that have brand name, more expensive machines, are quite happy with them and think they got a great value for the money."

[Jeff Monson]

I will bring up one point. Keep in mind, buying a laser is a deal with plenty of negotiation room built in. If they are asking for $18,000, offer them $15,000 and see where it comes back. I'd not pay $18,000 for a Helix on a good day these days, and I owned one. You can get down a fair amount on that "asking" price. Don't be afraid to negotiate. I think that's probably the most common mistake new laser buyers make (we made the same mistake). We think it's like walking into Home Depot and the price is what it is. That's not the case at all. If you can't get a 50W Helix for $16,000-$16,500, then you need to shop around. I can think of two other machines that you could get in 50W for that price.

That is one great response Scott, I had no clue it was a price I could negotiate. Thanks for letting me know that.

I also see a few SMC members that have Universal Lasers on their signature line, is that another major US made contender? On an equal playing field with Epilog?

[Rodne Gold]

$18k is a lot to pay for a machine that will do novelty items on wood!!!
I have mainstream machines as well as 2 cheap chinese ones, happy with both and both do the same thing
Cheap machines are better in some respects in that they are simple , more configureable , more powerful and spares are much cheaper, worse in terms of speed, tech support (not always tho) ease of use from corel and possibly reliability. Thing is , they cost a 1/4 of what you pay for a mainstream for a bigger and more powerful machine. Your choice!!

[Mike Null]

I have to say that my Trotec is the best tool i have ever purchased. It is in the price range you're discussing and, in my 14 years of engraving experience, easily the best machine on the market. Their US support is outstanding--as good or better than Epilog and ULS--I've worked with both so I know.

I am entering my 6th year and more than 7500 hours of use on my Trotec. No service issues and no parts replacement.

[Scott Shepherd]

I also see a few SMC members that have Universal Lasers on their signature line, is that another major US made contender? On an equal playing field with Epilog?

No, but there's one that's better and that would be the Trotec in my opinion. In my opinion, Universal and Epilog are like Ford and Chevy, while Trotec is more like a Ferrari. You'd be shocked at how much the pricing on ALL brands has come down. There's probably dozens of people on here that paid over $20K for their laser. Those same models today, in many cases, can be bought for $16,000-$17,000, so pricing has really come down.

[Gregor Irsic]

HI!
About a month ago I've purchased Chinese laser (about 3500K), It's in middle range of Chinese laser engravers.

For now I'm quite satisfied with it. It does the job and that's all. But it's really 90% in file preparation and your imagination.

If you're interested here's link to a quick review of my machine:

cnczonedotcom/forums/laser_engraving_cutting_machines/133919-jq4030_reviewAnd if you're up to buying Chinese laser you can read this post:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?170468-Laser-engraver-story

Regards

[Martin Boekers]

One thing to remember.... when everything is running smooth life is good. What you pay for is the support when things don't run so smooth.
If your a hands on mechnically minded a Chinese made might be fine if not stick with a USA model.

[Rich Harman]

Here's a comparison of the Aztec Calendar that Epilog sent me versus a calendar that I made today on a Shenhui 80 watt machine. I don't have any Red Alder so 3mm MDF will have to do.

204684
204683

[Jim Reinhard]

I looked at trotec and liked the features it had ,to bad I put in 2 requests a month apart for a price quote and never heard from anyone to this day .That scares me .If they wont call to give you a price .How you going to get service.GCC wrote me back within a hour.Maybe just a comuter thing and they never got the request .


No, but there's one that's better and that would be the Trotec in my opinion. In my opinion, Universal and Epilog are like Ford and Chevy, while Trotec is more like a Ferrari. You'd be shocked at how much the pricing on ALL brands has come down. There's probably dozens of people on here that paid over $20K for their laser. Those same models today, in many cases, can be bought for $16,000-$17,000, so pricing has really come down.

[Mike Null]

Jim

Who did you send the requests to?

[Rich Harman]

I also contacted Trotec twice, never heard anything from them.

[Rodne Gold]

The REAL advantage to getting a "cheap" laser is it's affordability. It makes it possible to dip one's toes in the water without losing the farm. It ENABLES folk to get into the industry , $15k might be a definite NO decision , but $3.5k is a maybe or a yes.
Based on my experiences so far , and looking at rich's pics , the "cheapies" do as good a job as anything else , so maybe you have some niggles and have to adopt a hands on approach , but if you want to be an "engraver" you have had to do it anway. The ethos of "I wanna press a button and have it all done for me without any hassle" is actually counterproductive as you really don't get to grips with your tools ... obviously im not advocating that you want a machine that requires coddling and adjusting all the time ... but it seems to me and from others that these days , this is not the case with the chinese lasers.

Just for interests sake , here is the invoice I got for a 1200 x 800 Reci tubed machine with enough spares to build another (none of which we have used) , more than affordable...








LASER CUTTING MACHINE (CE AND ISO CERTIFICATED)






SH-G1280 WITH RECI 80W TUBE+ UPGRADE CHILLER CW5000












































DETAIL INFORMATION OF SH-G1280-80W

1) LASER CUTTER MACHINE RECI 80WATTS
2) SIZE OF CUTTING AREA 1200MMX800MM
3) CUSTOM COLOR BLUE AND LIGHT GREY
4) CUTTING TABLE TYPE ALUMINIUM KNIFE BLADES AND HONEYCOMB
5) HIGH GRADE COOLING SYSTEM CW-5000 AC220V
6) WATER PUMP AND FLOW SENSOR
7) AIR ASSIST COMPRESSOR
8) 2X1 50MM FLEXIBLE EXHAUST OUTLET PIPES
9) 2X 100MM FLEXIBLE EXHAUST OUTLET PIPES
10) ALL INLET AND OUTLET WATER PIPES
11) POWER LEAD WIRE
12) EARTH WIRE AND PEG
13) 1 X EXTRA RECI 80WATT LASER TUBE
14) 1 X EXTRA ZESE LENS
15) 3X EXTRA MOLYBDENUM REFLECTING MIRRORS
16) RED DOT POSITIONING SYSTEM ACROSS THE MIRRORS
17) EXHAUST BLOWER FAN 550W
18) SOFTWARE INSTALLATION CD
19) OPERATING/MAINTAINANCE/SERVICE MANUAL
20) SPANNER AND TOOLS SET21) PAPER FOR ADJUSTING LASER LIGHT WAY
22) USB CONTROL LINE
23) EXTRA POWER SUPPLY UNIT FOR 80WATT LASER
24) SILICONE
25) MOTORIZED UP AND DOWN CUTTING TABLE

TOTAL COST $4400　　

































































EXTRA SPARES ORDERED














FLAT ROTARY ATTACHMENT





$123.00






CYLINDRICAL ROTARY ATTACHMENT





$184.00








STEPPER MOTOR DRIVER



$70.00








MAINBOARD



$261.00








STEPPER MOTOR



$46.00








MIRROR HOLDER ASSEMBLY



$22.00








LASER HEAD ASSEMBLY FOR 18MM LENS



$12.00








BEAM COMBINER ASSEMBLY WITH HALF REFLECTOR MIRROR FOR RED DOT ACROSS OPTICS


1


$40.00








RED DOT POINTER DIODE



$7.00








LCD CONTROL PANEL



$86.00






MIRRORS







$22.00






EXTRA LENSES ORDERED

LENSES 18 MM DIAMETER:
2x 40mm , 1x 50mm, 1x 56mm , 1x 70mm






5


$40.00


$200.00





BELT X AND BELT Y for 1280



$45.00























15mm ZESE LENSES
50MM FOR GCC LASERPRO LASERS


6


$30.00


$180.00

[Jeff Monson]

Rich, thanks for the comparison! That is one of the main concerns I had when I started this, you have obviously proved that a less expensive laser is just as capable.

Rodne, Thanks a million for the links, (great reads BTW) and pointing out to me there are alternatives. The only part
that scares me about what you stated "It ENABLES folk to get into the industry , $15k might be a definite NO decision , but $3.5k is a maybe or a yes." is getting discouraged or overwhelmed, by my TOTAL lack of laser knowledge. The mechanical portion of the machine does not scare me, its the software issues and possible poor customer service. For a newbie in the laser world these are major concerns getting into it. I know there has to be a trade-off somewhere, but spending 1/4 of the money is a huge attraction.

[Rodne Gold]

Rich's picture , imo , is worth a 1000 words , to me it looks better than the epilog example...???
You have the same issues with software and marketing your services and products with whatever laser you buy . In car terms , perhaps a mainstream is a Lt1 and a chinese laser a carbed 350 , both work , you use different tuning and modification techniques on either but they both work on the same principles.
You can buy a lathe , but the seller wont tell you how to turn anything , same with lasers.
In terms of software , you can use the same package to design , Corel , you might have to design slightly differently to cope with the vagaries and how the translator of that design , the driver , works. Its not rocket science....more important is to understand how a laser works with different materials and so forth.

[Scott Shepherd]

Rodney, you need to remember that you are doing exactly the opposite of what most Chinese laser owners scream at others about. You are generalizing ALL Chinese lasers as being easy to use and work with. I think you'd have to agree, your level of research and going to the company and talking with the engineers is not typical and probably 99.9% of the rest of buyers won't have that opportunity. The place YOU went and the things YOU saw are far from typical. I think you picked about the best possible laser offered at the time from that part of the world. Keep in mind, there are still dozens and dozens of people selling machines that have little to no support, won't work in anything but metric, don't play well with CorelDraw, don't have plug-ins for graphics packages, and many are built with recycled parts. So saying that a Chinese machine is just as good or better is not at all an accurate statement. Speed is also a huge factor for some people. One Trotec would out produce 3-5 of many of those machines if you were rastering.

If I were going to buy a machine made in China, it would be from the place Rodney researched. There are many many stories on this forum of people that bought from far less reliable places and then they end up here asking people to help them resolve their issues (which is fine), but it's all there to read. Buyer beware, not everything is equal from that part of the world.

[Jim Reinhard]

Jim

Who did you send the requests to?

Did request on trotec website.

[George M. Perzel]

Scott;
I think you doth protest too much-Rodney never said all Chinese lasers were great -in fact, he has on numerous occasions said that there is Chinese garbage out there (as well as Western garbage, I may add). The point which he is making is that there is quality Chinese equipment out there and, like anything else, you gotta do some homework. I also bought a Chinese laser from Shenhui-will be delivered tomorrow if the Teamsters don't go one strike . I talked to six different Chinese manufacturers, including two directly marketing in the USA, before I made a decision. Shenhui was super responsive-sometimes answering my email at a time was off work hours for them. Two of the other manufacturers were equally responsive. Rodne made an extra effort at verification by going to visit the company, but think he was 90% convinced of what he was going to do based on his research and local knowledge prior to going.
Look at Rich's picture. Is the Chinese machine as good or better than the Epilog he used as a comparision? Based on the picture-hell yes! Cleaner engraving and better detail. Sure, some things are different with the Chinese lasers versus what we are used to with the mainstream guys-but different does not mean worse,just a different way of doing things. I believe that my dual head Shenhuiu laser with a 48x35 inch bed will match my kind of thruput/production with any mainstream laser at equal or better quality. My machine,loaded with spares and extra tube, cost $9453.00 delivered to my side door-the equivalent one tube system from Trotec is over $60K-wonder which I should pick?
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Richard Link]

Just to add to the noise. I contacted Trotec and got a very fast email response both from the company and the local distributor here in Texas. Seems to be hit or miss but I thought they were pretty responsive.

[Rodne Gold]

Scott , all the chinese laser guys use more or less the same parts , there is a small choice of motherboards and software so nothing is proprietory , the systems are simple , tube and tube power supply , motherboard lcd panel and software , motion system + motors and drivers, optics. This makes stuff easy to fix , troubleshoot , upgrade or modify and spares are easily and readily available at cheap prices. The good guys assemble well , construct better platforms, use better parts and test properly and give good tech support, Problems with all are still the bad level of "chinglish" and poor manuals. Where you WILL have problems is if you buy those VERY cheap lasers being offered , the $1000 machines that do A4 size engraving , they and some other small very cheap models are really not great at all and should be avoided.

You must remember that in China they will manufacture to any price point , you get quoted $4k for a machine and "bargain" em down to $3500 , you do NOT get $4000 worth for $3500 - you get $3500 worth.
Sometimes the cheaper option from china is just not worth it , for eg , Acrylic sheeting comes in 2 grades , A grade and B grade , there is a 15% price difference , however B grade is not virgin acrylic and is structurally a lot weaker , yellows and crazes , it also has far worse thickness tolerance , can have small flaws on the surface and if clear , can have inclusions..the downsides are not worth the 15% saving.

In the interim , I see no move from any of the mainstream mnfgrs to counteract the fact that their sales must be being eaten into by the cheaper chinese lasers , I for one will never buy mainstream again
At the time I did , the chinese lasers were really not a good option , but now they are. I made my money off the expensive lasers , as I was one of the first guys on the block to have a laser , but now things have changed in terms of how many lasers are out there and the competiton for the same part of the pie and thus the high cost of entry can't be supported anymore.
IMO the mainstream mnfgrs are complacent , smug and secure that they face no competition and that their products and support and reliabilty are so vastly "superior" that they don't have to have any concerns. They are wrong and before they know it , the "yellow wave" will have engulfed em and its too late to react.
I see the problems with mainstream being in the fact that they have somewhat cumbersome dealer networks and middle men , the cost of manufacture of their carriages and machines is too high (due to high cost of labour) , they cannot achieve any economys of scale due to using proprietory parts etc and the cost of the source is IMO exhorbitantly high.. My pet bugbear is the cost of a synrad or coherent source , $3000+ for a 30w is totally out the ballpark, it shouldnt even be 1/3rd of that , if you have opened one you can see that there is no way that these should be priced in that region. R&d has been long amortized and parts are not made out of solid gold or unobtanium.
As an aside , Maybe support is good for those users in the US , but in general , other worldwide users have to rely on support of dealers in their countries which is often on the level of cretinous or worse , might as well have it in chinese , apart from that , the price of a mainstream in a foreighn country is often 1.5x or more than the equiiv $ cost in the states and parts availability is not 24 hrs fedex away

[Scott Shepherd]

George, I don't protest too much, I think Rodney and I agree on just about everything he's said about them. My point for raising issues is that a lot of people read these forums, and a lot of people don't read them thoroughly. What my concern is, is not that you can buy a good Chinese made machine, my concern is that people read Rodney's post, then plunk down $3,000 and end up with a pig in a poke because they went for the cheapest one they could find on ebay.

That's all I'm saying. Rodney's in a unique situation, he owns about 6 lasers. One has an issue, not a huge deal, move it over to another one and work longer hours. For me, and everyone with 1 laser, which is most everyone on this forum, when my laser goes down, I'm unable to produce ANY product. My business is one where I have to deliver products daily. Be being down for 24 hours is a problem. Those are the things that should be considered when anyone purchases a laser, and are issues I have raised before. If you're making widgets in your basement for extra income and you sell at the flea market, being down for a couple of days may not impact you. Those are the things you have to consider.

Rodney has repeatedly said the exact same thing I'm saying. Be careful, there are machines you don't want to own. I think that point needs to be constantly raised on threads that involve Chinese machines, not to bash them, but to make sure people don't get burned.

As I have said about 10 times in the past, I've owned Chinese machines, I bought the top end of the items we purchased, and we had decent luck with the items. I wouldn't suggest anyone not buy one. I'd suggest everyone do their homework before spending money on something that will make you money.

I also believe that mainstream machines have their place. It's odd that if you say something about Chinese machines, you are bashing them, but if you say bad things about mainstream machines, you're just being honest.

I don't think you can deny the issues people have had with those machines on this very forum. How many threads have we seen where people were essentially begging for help because they were stuck with a machine that didn't work and had no help or support. That's exactly what I'm try to help people get around, to remind them that not all Chinese lasers are the same, and there are some really good quality ones out there, along with some really bad ones, so do your homework and get the good ones.

My intention has never been to say they are all bad. If you read my posts that way, you're reading what I'm writing incorrectly. I have history of saying this exact same thing over and over.

One more thing to note about the sample in Rich's photo. It looks like the Epilog sample is in Alder and his sample is in MDF. Not a huge difference, but before you throw someone under the bus, we should have samples on the same substrate.

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Scott;
Thanks- I think we all agree there is good and bad from both sides of the Pacific. Perhaps this statement you wrote needs some clarification as it is certainly not true:
"Rodney, you need to remember that you are doing exactly the opposite of what most Chinese laser owners scream at others about. You are generalizing ALL Chinese lasers as being easy to use and work with."
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Richard Rumancik]

Scott , all the chinese laser guys use more or less the same parts , there is a small choice of motherboards and software so nothing is proprietory , the systems are simple , tube and tube power supply , motherboard lcd panel and software , motion system + motors and drivers, optics. This makes stuff easy to fix , troubleshoot , upgrade or modify and spares are easily and readily available at cheap prices. . . .

In this post Rodne tends to be treating most of the Chinese lasers as pretty much the same - (although he does go on to say that the better assemblers have somewhat better product and service,) but I can see how someone can be mislead into thinking that a Chinese laser is a Chinese laser. I said in another thread and will repeat: there are mainstream lasers (ULS, Trotec, Epilog etc), Chinese lasers, and Shenhui lasers.

I think if Rodne referred to his lasers as "Shenhui" lasers in his posts, it would be clearer. By using the term "Chinese lasers" in his posts, it tends to blur the distinction between manufacturers. For example, Rodne said: "The REAL advantage to getting a "cheap" laser is it's affordability." Now if he had said "The REAL advantage to getting a Shenhui laser is it's affordability" then I think it would have been more accurate and less likely to mislead someone who is looking on eBay for the lowest price and expecting Shenhui quality.

For all members discussing their lasers, I think that its important to idently the manufacturer of the laser equipment and not to refer to them generically as "Chinese".

[Scott Shepherd]

Well said Richard!

George, what brand of laser made in the USA is "bad"? You said there are good and bad on both sides of the Pacific. I'm curious who's selling USA made lasers that are bad.

[Rodne Gold]

I have seen posts elsewhere where Shenui did not get as good a recommendation as I or Vincent de klerk give em , and have seen glowing testaments and stories about some other assemblers/mnfgrs that others tell horror stories about. Same with mainstream lasers .. theres always a lemon somewhere. I went thru 6+ coherent tubes in 6 months due to some QC issues at Coherent..go figure!!
I suppose I am kinda lumping most of the well known laser purveyours together as "cheap chinese" as opposed to "expensive mainstream" ...
Most of bigger guys in china are very reactive to issues users bring up and are trying real hard to subscribe to a more "western" concept of doing business , implementing better quality control and working on improvement in the product.

As all of us say , do your homework like one would with any relatively expensive enterprise then at least you can then take an educated risk. Would you hand over money to someone 6000 miles away and who can't speak your language when all you have seen is their product on the internet before really doing some probing ?
Wanna buy a laser then google the companys name , google earth the address , ask for copies of their certificates , pictures of their factory , references of foreign buyers , ask a zillion quesdtions , dont pay it all up front *most mnfgrs ask for 30 deposit and 70 on BOL* , go look at one of their machines if you can , see if they have gold status on ali baba or other chinese business portals and how long they been so, skype or MSN them and so on and so on etc etc.....
At the very worst , if you do get a lemon , its actually quite easy and cheap to fix..lots of westerners been there and done that so there is some help out there , even competing chinese mnfgrs will help ..
Otherwise there are alternatives , you can buy from someone like Rabbit lasers USA who sell machines that they have brought in , set up , tested etc and they carry spares and offer "english" and not engrish tech advice , you will just pay more...but if you need the hand holding or peace of mind , it's maybe worth it. You will probably pay about a 50-70% premium for that.

[Richard Rumancik]

I see the problems with mainstream being in the fact that they have somewhat cumbersome dealer networks and middle men , the cost of manufacture of their carriages and machines is too high (due to high cost of labour) , they cannot achieve any economys of scale due to using proprietory parts etc and the cost of the source is IMO exhorbitantly high.. My pet bugbear is the cost of a synrad or coherent source , $3000+ for a 30w is totally out the ballpark, it shouldnt even be 1/3rd of that , if you have opened one you can see that there is no way that these should be priced in that region.

You already are seeing dealers and middle men with the Chinese lasers - it is an inevitable progression. Not everyone is comfortable in buying direct and not everyone can go see the factory. So someone sets up a business importing Chinese lasers, perhaps relabels them, translates the manuals, holds stock and parts , hires technicians, goes to trade shows, etc etc. None of this is free and everyone deserves to be paid. So I don't hold anything against someone who imports product and supports it. Some people here would buy a Chinese laser if only there was better local support - will this raise prices? Of course.

North American and European labor is more expensive than China - what should the mainstream manufacturers do about that? I suppose they could buy more parts from China. Or manufacture their machines in China.

The mainstream manufacturers can use the model of the computer industry where there are common mainboards, hard drives, video cards, monitors etc and eveything is plug-and-play. It might be good for the customer for pricing, but reduces selection and innovation. It makes a product a commodity.

Conventional laser tubes are expensive, but if they are so simple to make, why can't the Chinese make a Synrad or Coherent clone? I think that that is the hurdle that the Chinese manufacturers need to get over. Glass laser tubes are old-technology and they really need to put their efforts toward developing a suitable metal-sealed laser tube to go with their systems.

[Brian Stezowski]

You already are seeing dealers and middle men with the Chinese lasers - it is an inevitable progression. Not everyone is comfortable in buying direct and not everyone can go see the factory. So someone sets up a business importing Chinese lasers, perhaps relabels them, translates the manuals, holds stock and parts , hires technicians, goes to trade shows, etc etc. None of this is free and everyone deserves to be paid. So I don't hold anything against someone who imports product and supports it. Some people here would buy a Chinese laser if only there was better local support - will this raise prices? Of course.

Jeff,

To support Richard's comment I recently went through a very lengthy decision to buy a laser. I looked at all of the US made machines and checked around other avenues of getting a used machine as well. I couldn't justify spending that kind of money and I ended up buying a chinese made laser through Legacy Lasers. At the time importing was not an option for me. I am an engineer in my day job and though I am very familiar with hardware and software there were too many questions to be answered. This was my first go round' with a laser so I personally needed the support from someone in the same continent. Dean has been awesome with support and he answers any questions quickly to the best of his ability. I had my laser up and running the day I uncrated it with little needed support from Dean (there was a driver issue with Windows 7 64-bit that has been resolved). I would recommend Legacy to anyone in my situation.

I'm sure the other Chinese machine import guys (Turnkey, Rabbit USA) do a great job as well.

[Rodne Gold]

I have no problem with those that set up a business supporting chinese lasers and I agree , a user should pay extra if they want all the hassle taken out of it and thats why I offered the alternative. We have a co here that does just that BUT..there is a little fly in the oinkment with them and that is usurious greed. They charge $30 000+ for a base machine with no spares that cannot cost them more than $6000 landed..... thats a 500% profit margin !!!! You should see their website - you have to shovel a 3 ft layer away to get to a dubious nugget of actual accuracy.
We also have local flea-bay sellers who are at the 100-150% mark but on indent only - they have no machines and the3 chances of getting support are virtually nil , it's also notorious for scammers ... No option here but for a DIY import if you want Chinese.

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Scott;
Define "bad" for me-it's a relative term whose rigorous definition is primarily dependent on the perception and emotions of the person using it. To quantitatively define it with regard to lasers would require access to a massive amount of data which is not readily available, so we tend to go with our perceptions based on what others are reporting. In my eight years on SMC I have read numerous threads regarding issues with both "mainstream" lasers and Chinese lasers. I have seen "lack of support" issues from both sides as well as "availability of spare parts"-took me 3 weeks to get parts from GCC for my Mercury. Also had a major issue with the laser tube (Synrad) failing after 2 weeks-but did get a new one overnighted to me. Laser does weird things?-plenty of posts reporting such issues and many of them resolved with the help of SMC members who own similar machines. That does not make any of them a "bad" machine and that is also true of "Chinese" lasers.
It appears to me that many of the problems related to "Chinese" lasers stem from lack of familiarity with the operating system-it is very different from what we are used to (Corel with proprietary drivers). In actuality, many of these systems have a lot more functions which can be tweaked than what we are used to. I think that tends to scare some folks who want predetermined settings for any application and have a "push the button" mentality. That's OK if you don't want to explore all of the capabilities of your system. that's why Rodne, and others, have said that the Chinese lasers are not for the novice, yet the affordability of such systems has made it far easier for the novice to get into the game without taking the time to learn their equipment.
The bottom line? Good and bad with both, but the Chinese have greatly improved over the last five years and, I predict, will continue to improve and within two years cause a major upheaval for the US and European manufacturers.

[Dan Ashlin]

I have no problem with those that set up a business supporting chinese lasers and I agree , a user should pay extra if they want all the hassle taken out of it and thats why I offered the alternative. We have a co here that does just that BUT..there is a little fly in the oinkment with them and that is usurious greed. They charge $30 000+ for a base machine with no spares that cannot cost them more than $6000 landed..... thats a 500% profit margin !!!! You should see their website - you have to shovel a 3 ft layer away to get to a dubious nugget of actual accuracy.
We also have local flea-bay sellers who are at the 100-150% mark but on indent only - they have no machines and the3 chances of getting support are virtually nil , it's also notorious for scammers ... No option here but for a DIY import if you want Chinese.

This was my main factor in buying a chinese machine. I ended up getting from a supplier who is only about an hour from me, he's knowledgeable, answers his phone and set me up with an 80w reci machine with a 4'x3' bed, rotary attachment, delivery, setup and training for just under 10k. I would love to get a Trotec to replace the one i have that's dying a slow death, but as it stands now, I can barely afford the 10k, and trotec cannot match that size and power for the price. If i want to grow my business, i need more capabilities and this is the absolute best bang for my buck.

[Dan Hintz]

Conventional laser tubes are expensive, but if they are so simple to make, why can't the Chinese make a Synrad or Coherent clone?
They could, but you likely wouldn't see them imported into the states... the US is more aggressive in its defense of patented material compared to countries such as China, so if a company started making metal tubes for the US, their shipments would begin getting seized at the ship yard.

[Richard Rumancik]

Well, I'm not suggesting that they violate patents, just move from the 1960-1980 era into the 1990's. They don't have to use 2000 technology to make a decent sealed laser tube. The oldest patent on the Synrad 48 tubes is 1989 vintage, so I presume that the basic concept is no longer under patent protection. Synrad actually lists 9 patents, the first 4 are 1989-1991 vintage, the 5th is irrelevant and the rest are 1995-2001. You could probably design a decent laser tube based on the first 4 patents.

One thing that is unclear is a patent label that says: "This laser product is manufactured under one or more of the following U.S. patents: <list>" My issue with this is that they can quote every patent ever issued to the company, including expired patents, making it look like the product has significant patent protection when it does not. I believe that the US is cracking down on companies that show expired patents on their products. I think they should also restrict marking of patent numbers that don't even apply to that particular product. It is misleading because they leave it to the individual to figure out how (or if) the particular patent applies. I'm not picking on Synrad; this is common practice. I can't tell if the last 4 patents issued to Synrad even apply to the series 48 lasers unless I did a lot of work (and I don't have any motivation to do so.) I suspect that some of the later patents might be Firestar series patents.

The point is that much of the technology for the Synrad 48 series laser is probably in the public domain yet we don't see Chinese lasers with metal sealed tubes. So I suspect that the reason there are no clones has to do less with IP protection than with the lack of knowledge to actually make a laser like Synrad. Seems like there is more technology in there than meets the eye.

[Rodne Gold]

i saw a chinese sealed metal RF tube source at shenhui , their motherboards control it as well as any other RF source (like synrad etc) , however their machines are designed for the glass tubes which are a tried and proven technology and are a lot cheaper.
The chinese RF metal thing was 40w and was being evaluated by them as it was a new product on the market , they werent sure of reliability etc etc
They said It cost $900 or so ... I have no more info re this , they were quite secretive or guarded whan I asked more questions
In the interim , the real "cheapy" glass tube equivalent is 60w or higher and costs from $130 , according to the engineers and tech guys there , using a RF RF source has only one real advantage over the glass tube in that it can fire at lower powers , it has no advantage in terms of beam quality and the reci tubes are as good re longevity..
I have tested my 60w ($ 170 - 1000 hr tube) and 80w glass *$400 8000hr* tube against my 30w synrads and the output of all of em are identical to all intents and purposes, I would rather have the cheaper glass tube at higher powers , they work real good

[Bill Cunningham]

They could, but you likely wouldn't see them imported into the states... the US is more aggressive in its defense of patented material compared to countries such as China, so if a company started making metal tubes for the US, their shipments would begin getting seized at the ship yard.

Dan! what about 'other' clones the Chinese are grinding out.. I've been looking a ATV's lately, and companies like Polaris (Ranger) and Yamaha (Rhino) are starting to feel the competition in Canada.. Does the U.S. prevent the importation of these? The Chinese Rhino clone is about 99% and the Ranger Clone is 100% the parts between the U.S. Manuf. and The Chinese clones are almost all interchangeable. All the same arguments apply, the Chinese machine will fall apart, frames will break, yadayada yada. But lately they seem to be standing up quite nicely. George is right, The U.S. Manuf. industry is in for a BIG problem in the very near future, and it's not just Lasers, it's everything!

[Scott Shepherd]

George is right, The U.S. Manuf. industry is in for a BIG problem in the very near future, and it's not just Lasers, it's everything!

Got a news flash for you Bill, that would have been an accurate statement about 10 years ago. The manufacturing is already gone here. That was my life for 25 years and I watched it all slip away, little by little. At the time, it started going to Canada, then it went to Mexico, then it started heading to China, and when China gets too expensive (it's already happening), it'll go somewhere else.

Most manufacturing left in the USA isn't making things, it's assembling them. Global sourcing is used for the parts, then we just assemble things, test them, and move on.

It's sad what happened to Manufacturing here. Really sad.

[Rodne Gold]

Globalization is what happened in the last 25 years.

[Michael Hunter]

Slightly off topic, but I have been wondering about the cooling necessary for glass laser tubes.

My air-cooled Epilog appears to give pretty consistent power from winter temperatures (5-10C, 40-50F) to summer (30-35C, 86-95F).

Reading a forum about LaserPro (Chinese) glass tube lasers, there was a lot of talk about getting the cooling water really cold - less than 10C, 50F - in order to get the best out of the tube.
Anyone any idea of why this should be so?

[Rodne Gold]

The power will stay constant if the cooling waters temp stays constant, It doesnt have to be ice cold , Ice cold water can cause problems with condensation. Laserpro's use a synrad, coherent or sometimes Rofin sinar tube and not a Glass tube , some RF sealed metal tubes like synrad also need and or are offered with water coolant.

[Michael Hunter]

Sorry - the manufacturer is Laserscript, not Laserpro.

Still not clear why the temp needs to be constant for glass tubes (or maybe my Epilog varies more than than it seems).

A major factor in the performance of any tube is the re-cominbation of CO and O into CO2, ready for the next firing pulse - I should have expected that to be quicker at higher temperatures.

[Rodne Gold]

From Sam's laser FAQ
http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/laserfaq.htm#faqtoc
Even though the CO2 laser is among the most efficient, this still doesn't say
much! At best, you will get 20 percent electrical->optical efficiency for the
tube. Home-built CO2 lasers could do a lot worse. For a 50 W laser at 20 percent
efficiency, 400 W needs to be dissipated as heat. At 10%, this goes up to 450 W!
Depending on a variety of factors including the type and quality of your
mirrors, it could be even less. While it is possible to get rid of this amount
of waste heat with a suitable heat sink and forced air cooling, it takes more
effort than a simple water jacket. Flowing liquid is amazingly effective due its
specific heat being 100s of times larger than air. However, also realize that just preventing the tube from cracking or melting
isn't enough - lasing itself is affected by the temperature of the gas. As it
heats up, the efficiency goes down further until you just have a poor excuse for
a gas discharge sculpture
And

Water is needed for sealed tubes. Reason: We are not so much worried about
hurting the tube as we are about keeping the gas cool. CO2 gets vibrationally
excited by a collision with electronically excited N2. Thus, you need N2 to make
a CO2 laser. There is a problem that happens when the plasma gets too thermally
hot. Return to the ground state or something like that doesn't happen. You end
up with all your CO2 or N2 stuck in some state that can't lase. Cooling makes
the laser physics work. Only at much higher powers do you need to worry about
melting anything.

[Dan Hintz]

Dan! what about 'other' clones the Chinese are grinding out.. I've been looking a ATV's lately, and companies like Polaris (Ranger) and Yamaha (Rhino) are starting to feel the competition in Canada.. Does the U.S. prevent the importation of these?
Are the copied items patented? If they are, then the companies can apply for protection and the imports will be stopped at the port. Just because it looks the same, however, does not mean it's protected by patents.

[Michael Hunter]

I would guess ATVs count as cars - and whole cars can't be patented, nor can their designs be registered or protected in any way. So exact clones *may* be fully legal.
What the car people can - and do - is patent everything possible that goes into a car (engine bits, turbos, fancy gearboxes etc.) to try to make it difficult for the copiers.

[Bill Cunningham]

You would think that those two companies would have 'something' in their machines that is patented.. But I have yet to see any Chinese ARGO clones, or even a Chinese PWC clone of any kind.. I wonder how their doing on Ultralight aircraft, and maybe parachutes :eek:

[Hector Renaud]

I am new to this laser industry, but I did my research before buying. Yes, cash flow was a concern (as it is in most cases). In the end bought a Shensui DC-G350, $3500 US delivered to my door just south of the artic circle in the Yukon. Most US manufacturers I talked to wanted that much just to ship their unit up here!

Yes I have to manually set my home point. Yes I have to manually set my table height.

I looked at this this way... the $15,000 I saved.. I can sure make a lot of mistakes during the learning process and still save a ton of money.

The support has beem exceptional from Shensui... Joy even helps using remote access to my puter.. and does it after hours and on weekends! (Try getting a hold of someone from a US company on weekends!)

All in all, the best decision I ever made.

[Mike Null]

Hector

Welcome to SMC and good luck with your engraving adventures.

[Thomas Bank]

My third Epilog was a used one (bought through the classified ads HERE at SMC!) and it cost about half what a new one was plus I got a bunch of extras (rotary, PhotoGrav) . Never had a minute's trouble with it. So if you can find one and do your homework, you can get a good deal.

What are the considerations on a used machine - common wear or replacement items and costs? A quick search of theBay turned up Epilogs from $2500 to $12000 and higher. A $2500 machine would be great - unless you find that it needs a $8000 laser replaced...

[Khalid Nazim]

I have convinced myself to get into the laser cutting/engraving business as a part time earning opportunity and cannot afford to spend too much here. I live in Canada and was looking at leasing a machine from Epilog (Zing 24 with rotary attachement ~ CAD14K) as the monthly installments are not too much. What is your opinion about leasing machines? I don't want to pay a large amount upfront and that's the reason I am looking at the option of leasing a machine if I go with the Epilog.

Are GCC Lasers somewhat between EPILOG and Shenhui?

Hi Rodne/George/Hector,
I am now really interested in buying a machine from Shenhui based on your feedback and comments. Would you recommend a person in Shenhui that I can reach out to?

Regards
Khalid

[Rich Harman]

Blanca handles Africa and Pascal takes care of USA, perhaps he handles all of North America.