Specific pencil marks for specific faces/whatever

[Rob Marshall]

Hi,

This may be a really dumb question, but...I'm still trying to get started doing woodworking (gathering tools, refurbishing them, sharpening, etc...), and will be using hand tools, so even though I think this is a general question, I thought I'd put it here.

I keep noticing that when people mark references faces (I'm also watching the Frank Klausz' DVD "Dovetail a Drawer") that it seems like there are "specific" marks that are being used. For example, at one point early in the "Dovetail a Drawer" video, Frank talks about a "square mark" that he puts on the outside and top of the drawer faces based on which side of the wood is the "outside" of the wood, determined by looking at the rings in the wood. I also notice that a lot of people seem to use the same symbol, or mark, for reference faces. For example I see the same mark being used in "The Essential Woodworker" by Robert Wearing on pp. 32-33 figures 37-40 as I've seen Chris Schwarz use on reference faces.

So, like I said, this may be a dumb question, but are there standard marks that people use? And, if so, where might I find them described?

My assumption is that, as long as I know what my marks mean, who really cares?...but if I'm working with someone else, or trying to follow what someone is doing, and there are a standard set of marks, it would be nice to know what they are. And, if there are, I'd like to get into the habit of using them.

Thanks, and sorry if this has already been asked (I would appreciate a pointer), or really is just a dumb question :)

Rob

[Bob Strawn]

http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=28313 Will explain the basics of the triangle mark.

The carpenters bird beak mark is made by placing the pencil on the mark and drawing away. This is done twice. The intersection is where the line should go. When a line is drawn and then hatch marking is made on one side of it, the hatch marking indicates that that wood is to be removed. A small LL by the line means leave the line when cutting. Otherwise the expectation is to split the line leaving half of it still on the wood. This is a high standard to set, but is what should be aimed for each time so that you can eventually meet it every time. Squiggles though a line indicate that the line is wrong.

A broken or dotted line is often used to indicate a center.

I was taught this convention, but it may not be anywhere near universal as I have not seen it a lot elsewhere.

L left hand side viewed from front.
R right hand side viewed from front.
F front
T top
B bottom
A back.


Bob

[Jim Koepke]

I am no expert on this and often do like you and use my own set of marks.

My corners are usually marked for square or squarest reference corner. Backs, tops, insides and bottoms are also marked. A triangle is drawn where two boards are to be joined so I know what faces align. When I remember, the top of the triangle points to the top of the work.

I also use letters on two pieces where they are joined. Often I use Greek letters. Letter marks are usually on the inside of a joint.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

A small LL by the line means leave the line when cutting. Otherwise the expectation is to split the line leaving half of it still on the wood.

It helps to use one of those fat leaded carpenters pencils when trying to splint a line.

Most of my saws are wider than my regular pencil lines.

jtk

[John A. Callaway]

I mark my faces and edges that have been trued....per the method Robert Wearing describes in The Essential Woodworker.... a book that a new wood worker should own...( I see that you are familiar with it... ) Once I lay out dove tails though i switch to blue painters tape to label outside face, inside face, left side, right side, top, and bottom..... Just keep a roll and a sharpie handy... Label everything before you scribe a line with your marking gauge or make a cut. This little step will prevent some mistakes that may cause a board to be re-purposed for something else than originally intended...

[Andrae Covington]

I don't think there's one universal standard, but some conventions have been around a long time and have widespread use. I normally use the squiggly face mark you have seen in the Wearing book for the reference face, connected to a two-leg open triangle or arrow for the reference edge. Jim Kingshott in one of his videos said the face mark is the upper half of a lowercase cursive "f"... the Master would write the "f" on the face side of a wide board and then it would be sawn in half. May be apocryphal but sounds good.:)

Kingshott marked each outside corner of the drawer side boards with a fairly large quarter circle and a number. I loosely follow this convention but more often use "a" "b" "c" "d" and usually write them small with a pencil.

204514

[Jim Neeley]

As an example of the many methods that probably exist for marking, I've seen videos that recommend the reference side be hidden if one is going to be as this permits the other side to be planed and scraped, even finished, while still leaving the layout marks for assembly. Otherwise, place the reference side where it can be planed after any jointery is complete (i.e. outside of a drawer).

It's tough to compete with the upper half of a lowercase cursive "f" though.. <g>

It'd be interesting to see a comparison of Frid's, Peters and other Master's systems for commonality and how they differ. Probably more commonality than not though, assuming many grew out of the age-old apprenticeship programs.

[Russell Sansom]

I like Krenov's Triangles. For the opposite side, I usually double them up so there's no constant flipping boards to figure out which side is the right one. But those markings are often out of sight, so I usually follow a box around with letters where they meet A meets B, C meets D, E-F, etc. I always prefer having a second set of markings for a complicated piece. I think everybody here has rabbited the wrong side of a board at least once. Or cut the dovetails the wrong way...Even better! The second set of markings using a different scheme from the first lets me assemble the box, cabinet, etc., in my head without actually needing to mock-assemble the piece.

But it varies a great deal. As mentioned above, the piece often dictates the method. Sometimes I just have to put very tiny letters or numbers somewhere with a 1b pencil. I like diamonds for the "reference" face and "double diamonds" for the other face. If these diamonds are significantly taller than wide, you can see instantly if a board should be running horizontally or vertically.
I've found that tables are really tricky. I've messed up the mortise orientation on two legs in my many years of doing this. The hope for an idiot-proof method may be an impossible dream!

Sometime blue tape works, sometimes it's in the way. The last very complicated cabinet I made, I occasionally stuck a little dab of blue tape on every inside surface so I could mock-fit the whole thing together without having to think.

Colored pencils sound good, but I've never been able to come up with a satisfactory coding scheme other than the electrical resistor code. But various colors are invisible on various woods, so it gets complicated.

[Rob Marshall]

Thanks to everyone for your replies...I'm not sure it all makes sense, yet, but it certainly gives me something to think about. And I know that marking is very important to (try :)) and prevent mistakes...or should I call them "learning opportunities" :)

[glenn bradley]

I use the triangle. I add dots if there are multiples.

[Tony Shea]

I also use the upper half of the cursive "f" for marking the reference surface, and I usually have the long part of the mark starting at the edge that is square with that face. But I will actually use that mark on the true/square edge as well as not to wonder after the fact. I will have this long part of the mark on both faces meet eachother at the corner so it is very clear which face and edge are square.

For glue-ups I always use a cabinet maker's triangle once I've found the best looking grain match. I also use a cabinet maker's triangle any time I need to keep multiple peices in order, such as legs on a table. I will find the best way to align my legs for appearance (what faces are out) and group them together in this configuration. Then I will draw a triangle on the top/endgrain so I will never be confused which leg belongs where and which part of the leg is facing out. Cabinets I do the same on the front edge of the 4 peices, ala Krenov.

[Trevor Walsh]

I use a cabinetmakers triangle for nearly everything denoting orientation, as well as panel glue ups. I also use the square-edge and face marks like Wearing shows in "Essential Woodworker" I would consider these to be standards in furniture or fine cabinetmaking. One shop I do work in they are a little less graphically oriented so their reference face "loop" is more like a "6" but basically the same. If the lumber is four square those reference marks denote show surfaces usually.

Another instance for the triangle, I was building a divided light door, grooves for glass and bridal joints last night, their is a large rail at the bottom a smaller one at the top and equal width stiles. the triangle helped me keep the inside edges correctly oriented to run the groove without making shuckswood.

[Jim Matthews]

I use the method set out by Robert Wearing in "The Essential Woodworker", Chapter 1 Figure 37 and Figure 44.

This is consistent with what Phil Lowe does, and that's good enough for me.

A loop on the reference face, a Vee on the reference edge - square to the reference face.

I

[lowell holmes]

That's the method I learned at Homestead Heritage.

[Bob Strawn]

I found the two resources that I was trying to find. Here are two links to the FWW articles, I linked to the second one already. It is I suspect possible to find the articles outside of the FWW environment. These are both pretty short articles but have given me some pretty good information. The third is a video that shows all the essentials of the triangle marking system. The presenter uses more lines than needed in some cases.

Keep Track of Your Progress with Squiggles and Lines
(http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2723) A simple marking system can show you your progress at a glance
by Philip C. Lowe (http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2723)

Triangle Marking
(http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2005) A simple and reliable system
by Adrian C. Van Draanen (http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2005)

Here is a video on using the Triangle Marking System. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgKx2UDo3b4&feature=player_embedded)


Bob

[Kent A Bathurst]

I use the triangle for glue-ups. Beyond that, I've just kinda made up my own. Often there are "won't show" locations where I can safely make marks, or letters, or numbers, using different colored sharpies [like, the top of the legs and aprons on a leg-and-apron table, or colored dots on a tenon cheek and the mating surface inside the mortise]. I also use painter's tape - blue, green, lavender, white............

[Rob Marshall]

So, if I could sum up what I think the "general consensus" is:

Cursive 'f' for reference faces
'V' on reference edge with point towards reference face
Triangle marking - especially on pieces that "relate" to each other in some way

Does that about sum it up?

And, thanks for all the help,

Rob