Stock market crashes....Forget my air conditioning question, how about fans?

[dennis thompson]

As some of you might have noticed last week I asked a question about the best air conditioners.
As I've watched the stock market over the last week:eek: I need to revise my question....What are the best fans:)
Dennis

[Al Wasser]

I feel you pain! I was think about a new pickup but I guess the old one will last a little longer

[Joe Angrisani]

Easy guys. It pulled back. It didn't crash. "Buying opportunity" with lots of good stuff on sale! :D

Wait a few days to see what Europe decides to do. If it drops some more this week, put some of your fan and truck money in play. If Europe starts to get their act together and we climb back up next week, well, you missed it (but you'll be back to A/Cs and pickups). But most likely they don't, and we pull back a little more, and stuff goes on sale for an even better price. Bigger A/Cs and option-filled trucks after that!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I'm with you Joe. It's just a pull back and it's temporary.

[dave toney]

I don't believe the prospects of the stock market are very good right now, and I am sorry to say that.
Gold and silver will do better for the next few years I am afraid.
The tarp bailout gave 16 trillion dollars to banks and financial institutions.
Yes, 16 trillion!
The budget debate was over (only) 3.5 trillion.
We are in a financial mess the likes of which has never been seen before.
Dave

[Stephen Tashiro]

The tarp bailout gave 16 trillion dollars to banks and financial institutions.


Is "gave" the correct word or is "loaned" the correct word? If the terms of the loans were excessively charitable or if they aren't paid back then I would agree with "gave".

Precious metals are an intersting investment, but I think it takes nerves of steel to make good profits from them. You have to figure out when to sell. You want to sell when the price is high. When will the price be high? - when there is lots of fear about currency based assets and people are rushing to buy precious metals.

[dave toney]

Is "gave" the correct word or is "loaned" the correct word? If the terms of the loans were excessively charitable or if they aren't paid back then I would agree with "gave".

Precious metals are an intersting investment, but I think it takes nerves of steel to make good profits from them. You have to figure out when to sell. You want to sell when the price is high. When will the price be high? - when there is lots of fear about currency based assets and people are rushing to buy precious metals.

The Federal Reserve likes to refer to these secret bailouts as an all-inclusive loan program, but virtually none of the money has been returned and it was loaned out at 0% interest.
Details here: http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3
If you don't feel comfortable investing in precious metals then it is obviously not for you, my investments are up about 600% in the last 10 years.
Dave

[Gary Hodgin]

It's been too hot to work in my garage for at least a month. I've been thinking about one of these, but can't decide on a color. Any ideas as to how I can jig it to my oscillating spindle sander?

http://www.windycitynovelties.com/7426p/solid-color-paper-hand-fans.html?s_cid=BEC7426

[dennis thompson]

I don't believe the prospects of the stock market are very good right now, and I am sorry to say that.
Gold and silver will do better for the next few years I am afraid.
The tarp bailout gave 16 trillion dollars to banks and financial institutions.
Yes, 16 trillion!
The budget debate was over (only) 3.5 trillion.
We are in a financial mess the likes of which has never been seen before.
Dave
Dave
According to the Treasury the Tarp program gave out $410 billion & has gotten $311 billion back. ( I could buy a nice air conditioning unit with that:))
Dennis

[Phil Thien]

I'm concerned with what I consider a lack of transparency on the part of the Federal Reserve when it comes to what they have done to shore-up U.S. and foreign entities.

It should also be noted that a majority of stock market technicians are yelling "get out of the market."

Combine those with the lack of forward progress on the debt, the S&P downgrade (I could go on and on), and I'm afraid we're in for a bit more downward momentum.

[dave toney]

Dave
According to the Treasury the Tarp program gave out $410 billion & has gotten $311 billion back. ( I could buy a nice air conditioning unit with that:))
Dennis
According to the report here http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3
done recently by the GAO it was 16 trillion.
The list of institutions that received the most money from the Federal Reserve can be found on page 131 of the GAO Audit and are as follows:

Citigroup: $2.5 trillion($2,500,000,000,000)
Morgan Stanley: $2.04 trillion ($2,040,000,000,000)
Merrill Lynch: $1.949 trillion ($1,949,000,000,000)
Bank of America: $1.344 trillion ($1,344,000,000,000)
Barclays PLC (United Kingdom): $868 billion* ($868,000,000,000)
Bear Sterns: $853 billion ($853,000,000,000)
Goldman Sachs: $814 billion ($814,000,000,000)
Royal Bank of Scotland (UK): $541 billion ($541,000,000,000)
JP Morgan Chase: $391 billion ($391,000,000,000)
Deutsche Bank (Germany): $354 billion ($354,000,000,000)
UBS (Switzerland): $287 billion ($287,000,000,000)
Credit Suisse (Switzerland): $262 billion ($262,000,000,000)
Lehman Brothers: $183 billion ($183,000,000,000)
Bank of Scotland (United Kingdom): $181 billion ($181,000,000,000)
BNP Paribas (France): $175 billion ($175,000,000,000)

Dave

[Bill Cunningham]

Just because I had nothing better to do I duplicated the Standard & Poor's Calculations ..
If a 1.00 bill is .004 inches thick, then:
A stack of 1 million of them is 4000 inches high
A stack of 1 Billion of them is 4,000,000 inches high
A stack of 1 Trillion of them is 4,000,000,000 inches high
Divide by 12 = a Stack 333,333,333.3 feet high
Divide by 5280 = a Stack 63,131.31313 Miles high
X 16 = a Stack of 1.00 bills 1010101.01 Miles High
The Binary number 101010101 = the hexadecimal current credit rating of the U.S.A
2AA +?:eek:

[Michael Weber]

Never heard of that credit rating. It would surely be a bad one compared to 1010101010;)

[Brian Elfert]

I blame the media for recessions as much as anyone. Consumers see stories about the stock market going down so they delay purchases such as air conditioners and new vehicles. Corporate earnings go down as people delay purchases and layoffs start. The media reports on bad corporate earnings and the layoffs. More consumers get worried about having a job so they also delay purchases.

It ends up as a vicious downward cycle.

[Bill Cunningham]

Your right! It works the same with gas prices.. The media makes some comment like 'gas prices are bound to rise', so the oil companies say '"Why not, their expecting it"!

[Phil Thien]

According to the report here http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3
done recently by the GAO it was 16 trillion.
The list of institutions that received the most money from the Federal Reserve can be found on page 131 of the GAO Audit and are as follows:

Citigroup: $2.5 trillion($2,500,000,000,000)
Morgan Stanley: $2.04 trillion ($2,040,000,000,000)
Merrill Lynch: $1.949 trillion ($1,949,000,000,000)
Bank of America: $1.344 trillion ($1,344,000,000,000)
Barclays PLC (United Kingdom): $868 billion* ($868,000,000,000)
Bear Sterns: $853 billion ($853,000,000,000)
Goldman Sachs: $814 billion ($814,000,000,000)
Royal Bank of Scotland (UK): $541 billion ($541,000,000,000)
JP Morgan Chase: $391 billion ($391,000,000,000)
Deutsche Bank (Germany): $354 billion ($354,000,000,000)
UBS (Switzerland): $287 billion ($287,000,000,000)
Credit Suisse (Switzerland): $262 billion ($262,000,000,000)
Lehman Brothers: $183 billion ($183,000,000,000)
Bank of Scotland (United Kingdom): $181 billion ($181,000,000,000)
BNP Paribas (France): $175 billion ($175,000,000,000)

Dave

Those #'s are a bit misleading.

Citigroup wasn't at any point provided with 2.5 trillion dollars. They made several (okay, tons of) appearances at the fed's window and borrowed money for short periods of time to maintain their liquidity. Each time they borrowed $10 or $5 billion dollars (for example) for 24-hours, that added to the bottom line of 2.5 trillion dollars.

A better way to put it would be to say that Citigroup has had to borrow about 3.5 billion dollars for about two years. Not chump change, but less scary. They had to borrow from the fed (which has historically been frowned on) because the global credit markets were frozen.

This is true for all the institutions on that list.

I do have some fear that a part of the bull market we've seen has been due to leakage of FR funds into the equities markets. And I think this will lead to greater volatility as institutions that have invested in securities move large positions out of the market for fear of a bear.

[Greg Peterson]

Corporate earnings go down as people delay purchases and layoffs start. The media reports on bad corporate earnings and the layoffs. More consumers get worried about having a job so they also delay purchases.

It ends up as a vicious downward cycle.

Corporate profits are at historic highs, and their taxes are at historic lows. They are not hurting.

But I get your drift. The job creators are us, the consumers. No business in their right mind ever added an employee because of some short term financial reak. The smart business adds employees based on demand for their product, goods or services.

[Neal Clayton]

and the demand is permanently damaged, because people over the past 30 years were convinced that trading income for debt was a good idea, and the 2008 crash left the business world with a real threat to the viability of that debt.

it's a problem that won't easily be solved.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Greg....I would say that you can't make a blanket or general statement about corporations that way. There are corporations out there make historic lows too.

Unforturnately, the problem has been decades in the making. And Neal is correct IMHO. The problem is complex and won't be easily solved.

[Greg Peterson]

Ken, you are correct. What I said was misleading. As a percentage of GDP, corporate tax revenues are at near historic low levels. Depending on which professional you cite, the large corporations, Fortune 500, are sitting on one to three trillion dollars of cash. That's a lot of cheese! The market is a complex place with an infinite number of moving parts. A reasonable excuse can be made for sitting or getting off the pot. Let's see some of that sugar trickle down like it's suppose to. At least in theory.

[Stephen Tashiro]

I looked at that GAO summary report and searched for the word "interest". I didn't see any place where it said that the loans were made at 0% interest. Does it say that somewhere?



If you don't feel comfortable investing in precious metals then it is obviously not for you, my investments are up about 600% in the last 10 years.


My point is that it doesn't matter how much your investments are up or down, you don't make or lose money on investments till you sell them.

I think selling is a harder decision than buying. I imagine many people who accumulate large investments and pride themselves on buying at the right time keep them until they die. Then the selling of the investments is timed merely by when the executor of the will gets around to settling the estate.

[Brian Elfert]

Corporate profits are at historic highs, and their taxes are at historic lows. They are not hurting.

But I get your drift. The job creators are us, the consumers. No business in their right mind ever added an employee because of some short term financial reak. The smart business adds employees based on demand for their product, goods or services.

I understand that corporate profits are high today. My point was that corporate profits will fall if consumers quit spending because the media keeps reporting that another recession is coming.

I don't pay the market much mind. None of the money I have in the market will be spent for probably a good 30 years. I might look at my 401k balance every three or four months.

[Greg Peterson]

Brian - I am not worried about corporate profits (Fortune 500) in the least. What good have their record profits done? Like I said, they got what they asked for, now it's time for them to let some of that sugar trickle down to the rest of us. Rising tide raises all boats.

Now then, as for the OP, have you seen the Dyson fan? The thing with no visible blades? Anyone seen one of these in person? I'm curious how it works and how loud it is.

[Jon Grider]

I agree with Brian's directing blame on the media... they do have a role in public sentiment which influences stock prices.. However some of the shared blame should be carried by the American businesses holding and hoarding unprecedented sums of liquid assets instead of hiring workers and investing in job producing updates and improvements like new software, machinery,etc. Obviously more jobs = more demand for products and services.

[Michael Weber]

Brian - I am not worried about corporate profits (Fortune 500) in the least. What good have their record profits done? Like I said, they got what they asked for, now it's time for them to let some of that sugar trickle down to the rest of us. Rising tide raises all boats.

Now then, as for the OP, have you seen the Dyson fan? The thing with no visible blades? Anyone seen one of these in person? I'm curious how it works and how loud it is.
Not the OP but I have seen one of the Dyson fans. I think it was the local Bed and Beyond (or whatever it is). They had one set up and operating. It was making a terrible noise. I have a major hearing loss even with powerful aids and I could hear it. Might have just been something wrong with the display but it was certainly louder than any fan I've ever heard. And as I recall the price was huge. Don't remember exactly what it was but I was shocked at the price. :eek: Maybe around $200. It's a neat gimmick but I wouldn't consider it for the price if it was noiseless.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

A friendly reminder....... political comments, discussion etc. violate the TOSs and are not allowed here at SMC.

I wish it was as simple as some would like to paint the problem but I fear it's a lot more complex than that.

[Bruce Page]

Now then, as for the OP, have you seen the Dyson fan? The thing with no visible blades? Anyone seen one of these in person? I'm curious how it works and how loud it is.

I saw the new Dyson on display at Best Buy. It was very quiet and smooth, with no air buffeting.

I thought it was very cool but also crazy expensive for a 12” table fan.

[Brian Elfert]

According to the report here http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3
done recently by the GAO it was 16 trillion.
The list of institutions that received the most money from the Federal Reserve can be found on page 131 of the GAO Audit and are as follows:

Citigroup: $2.5 trillion($2,500,000,000,000)
Morgan Stanley: $2.04 trillion ($2,040,000,000,000)
Merrill Lynch: $1.949 trillion ($1,949,000,000,000)
Bank of America: $1.344 trillion ($1,344,000,000,000)
Barclays PLC (United Kingdom): $868 billion* ($868,000,000,000)
Bear Sterns: $853 billion ($853,000,000,000)
Goldman Sachs: $814 billion ($814,000,000,000)
Royal Bank of Scotland (UK): $541 billion ($541,000,000,000)
JP Morgan Chase: $391 billion ($391,000,000,000)
Deutsche Bank (Germany): $354 billion ($354,000,000,000)
UBS (Switzerland): $287 billion ($287,000,000,000)
Credit Suisse (Switzerland): $262 billion ($262,000,000,000)
Lehman Brothers: $183 billion ($183,000,000,000)
Bank of Scotland (United Kingdom): $181 billion ($181,000,000,000)
BNP Paribas (France): $175 billion ($175,000,000,000)


I haven't researched this, but I find this hard to believe. The entire USA GDP in 2010 was around 14.5 trillion dollars. The federal debt is around 14.3 trillion dollars.

16 trillion dollars in assistance to banks would mean that more money was provided to them than circulates through our economy in an entire year. It is also more money than the entire federal debt. How would it be possible for the federal reserve or the federal government to supply that amount in assistance?

Shouldn't a bank like Citigroup be swimming in money if they got $2.5 trillion?

[Brian Elfert]

Brian - I am not worried about corporate profits (Fortune 500) in the least. What good have their record profits done? Like I said, they got what they asked for, now it's time for them to let some of that sugar trickle down to the rest of us. Rising tide raises all boats.


I don't care too much about corporate profits. The problem is they start laying off people and cutting other costs when profits go down. The media reports these layoffs. Consumers start to worry they will lose their job next so they cut back on spending. The vicious downward spiral continues.

I do care if my employer makes money. I get profit sharing if my employer makes money. If they don't make money I might lose my job as half our staff has since 2007.

I've heard about a lot of people in the last 7 to 10 days who have chosen to postpone or cancel major purchases due to the markets and the economy. The newspaper today had an article about this and talked about a couple who canceled a $10,000 Australian trip because of the recent economic news. Nothing had changed to this couple's personal economic status. They just got nervous due to what is happening and decided to hold onto the money.

[Gary Max]

I saw the new Dyson on display at Best Buy. It was very quiet and smooth, with no air buffeting.

I thought it was very cool but also crazy expensive for a 12” table fan.

Heck I thought the vacs where over priced until my wife bought me a D-25 for Christmas----worth every dime.
Now I got to check out this fan.

[Rick Moyer]

Marginally on topic and totally not in violation of the TOS:

The Dyson fan is a very cool piece of engineering and artwork. We bought one and use it as background noise in the bedroom for sleeping. It does not move as much air as a conventional box fan, is comparatively quieter, but I consider it as much artwork as functional, although it does act as a fan.
The Dyson vacuum cleaners on the other hand are absolutely awesome. my wife ran our canister vac over the floor and carpet, then used the Dyson, and the Dyson picked up an unbelievable amount more dirt. Highly recommend the Dyson Vac.

[Darius Ferlas]

I'm concerned with what I consider a lack of transparency on the part of the Federal Reserve when it comes to what they have done to shore-up U.S. and foreign entities.
The Federal Reserve is a bunch of private banks, so they are entitled to privacy.
And to our money, of course.

[Bruce Page]

Heck I thought the vacs where over priced until my wife bought me a D-25 for Christmas----worth every dime.
Now I got to check out this fan.
We've been using the Dyson vac for several years. It's the best vac I have ever used, bar-none. If it died tomorrow I'd buy another without hesitation.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I will remind everyone that political comments, statements and opinions are not allowed per the TOSs.

And frankly, discussing the current situation of the stock market is off subject for this thread fans.

[Phil Thien]

My daughter (15) things Dyson fans are awesome. She and her friends even saw an exhibit of the fans at a music festival and had their picture taken with the fans in the background.

Kind of a like a little fan club.