GLOAT, GLOAT, GLOAT!!! A Sharpening discovery for me. [Archive]

Archie England

08-06-2011, 5:08 PM

Boy what a discovery!! I bought some Sigma Power Ceramic stones from Stu (TFJ) and got the first installment just in time for some shop time this morning. INCREDIBLE is by the far the best descriptive to relate how much better they cut than my oil stones and my Norton water stones. These Sigmas are fantastic.

First, with two O1 chisels (Irwin, 1/2 and 3/4) I went from flattening the backs to sharpening bevels on the Norton 1000 and the Sigma 1000. The Sigma 1000 was multiple times faster!!!!! At least 3x faster. And, it left a sharper, more polished edge than the Norton. IT LEFT A LOT LESS MESS, TOO. This stone is incredibly responsive (its the Sigma hard) and very, very dish resistant. I kept drawing lines to see where it was dishing--and it wasn't.

By the end of the morning, I concluded that oil stones produce an edge that is as sharp as the Norton 8000 but not as polished. The Norton 8000 leaves the edge less sharp than the Sigma 6000, though its polish is nearly comparable. The 13000 stone I ordered hasn't arrived yet. I can't wait to see what crazy sharp may look like!

When I took the Irwins, Stanley's, Ashley Iles, and Lie Nielsons off the Sigma Power stones, I couldn't believe how mirror polished the backs and bevels were!! Yes, I consistently get wicked sharp with Ark oil stones (ain't no betta!!); but, the Sigma ceramics just cut and polish so much faster than the either the oil stones and the nortons. BTW, my Ark. stones cut A2, as well as the Nortons--though the Nortons are a little faster on the A2; about the same for 01. The Sigmas are screaming fast compared to that.

There is some mess. But compared to the Nortons, the Sigmas are significantly less messy in fresh dressing, water spritzing, and clean up. The Sigmas cut faster, resist dishing significantly longer, and leave the beginnings of mirror polishing much quicker--oh, and draw burr extremely faster, too.

So, I'm declaring my new Sigma ceramic stones a GLOAT!!!!!!!!

Hope this helps others on the fence, as was recently was.

Archie, near NOLA http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowyes.gif

Tony Shea

08-06-2011, 5:33 PM

I only have the 10000 at the moment but absolutely love mine as well. All that you said was very true about my stone. You left one fact out that is probably its' selling point over the Shapton Pro's, the thing is MASSIVE. It is over 2 times the thickness of my Shapton 1000 and is as dish resistant if not more. That to me proves that it is going to outlast any man made waterstone that I've ever seen, and thats a big deal with such a nice performing stone. I will soon aquire the 1000 and 6000 to round out my sharpening. I'm thinking about the 13000 but do not think I will gain much after the 10000. What are other's opinions on getting the 13000 if I already have the 10000?

george wilson

08-07-2011, 8:46 AM

Am I correct that one of those stones costs about $92.00?

Archie England

08-07-2011, 9:46 AM

Am I correct that one of those stones costs about $92.00?

Mr. George, that's just about the cost...for a larger Ark Black Surgical, a Hard Translucent Ark, and the Sigma 13000. Yes, the Sigma 13000 is expensive; however, it's nearly $200 less than the Naniwa Chocera 10000 and nearly $400 cheaper than the Shapton Pro 30000, plus it's cheaper than the Shapton Pro 12/15000. In terms of sharpness and finish I've been told that the Sigma Power ceramic 13000 produces an edge with a finish honing and polishing that somewhere in the range of 20000+ grit.

I did another experiment yesterday evening. This time I took a Stanley 750, 1/2" chisel I've been rehabbing, with deep scratches (I used my new Sigma Power 120 SIG stone--it's genuinely comparable to a grinder w/o the ability to blue the steel) to my lowly Washita (a jinuwiiiinnnee Lilly White on-the-label-say-so Ark stone) and very quickly flattened the chisel blade back. Carefully cleaning off all oil remnants, I then took it straight to the Sigma 6000 stone (which I had left muddied from the last session). The results were stellar. The 6k stone sharpened and polished most of the remaining scratches out, leaving a mirror finish. SWEET!

After a couple of strop strokes on clean leather, I took the chisel to some SYP end grain--it burnished both the dense and soft end grain. DOUBLE SWEET!

Oh, I used the stone dry, with only very little water--absolutely no mess!!! When the mud began to firm up some, I added a touch more water and it cut/polished like crazy---back and bevel! Now the time to accomplish this took longer because I skipped normal steps. I couldn't imagine any splash and go stone being any easier! However, this resulting sharpness was beyond my typical achievement by means of the best Ark stones. AND, THE FINISH WAS OUTSTANDING. (Note to reader: being new to ceramic water stones, this may be a tad overstated. It is, however, beyond everything I've ever achieved on blade backs in the past with Scary Sharp, oil stones, and Norton water stones [220-8000].)

I'm not use to getting mirror finishes on my blades; nor am I accustomed to parring through end grain of SYP like this. YMMV, but I'm quite a happy customer!!http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowcool.gif

David Nelson1

08-07-2011, 9:51 AM

for the 13000 grit its closer to 150 +/- 10 or so bucks. around 90 for the 10000

Archie England

08-07-2011, 10:14 AM

for the 13000 grit its closer to 150 +/- 10 or so bucks. around 90 for the 10000

How quickly the USD has tanked against the Yen, despite Japan's govt devaluing the Yen. When I ordered mine, the 13000 listed at $129, and because I bought several other stones, Stu offered a better deal. So, I don't know exactly how much it ended up being as an individual stone, but it certainly was not closer to $150. These days, our USD currency is going to suffer. Arrgh!

My response to David is not intended as offensive or defensive: I merely don't want to mislead anyone. That's why I responded above as "just about the cost."

Tools from Japan has the Sigma 13000 listed this morning at $140.21, without the base. His prices fluctuate in accordance with exchange rate changes.

Thanks,

Arch

george wilson

08-07-2011, 10:38 AM

phil harold

08-07-2011, 11:57 AM

Have you tried the white and black Spyderco ceramic stones? I don't know the current cost without looking it up. Mine were $24.00 each when I got them. Them and a diamond stone do everything I need to do.

Ultra fine is now 69.55 @ amazon
www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Ultra-Benchstone-Pouch-Inch/dp/B000Z0RW1A

Stuart Tierney

08-07-2011, 1:13 PM

Hi George,

From what I understand about the Spyderco stones, they're essentially the same thing as the Sigma Power ceramic. Difference being the Sigma are more friable, so they cut faster, the Sigma are porous and made to work with water/soaking while the Spyderco are meant to be used dry and the Spyderco are 1/3 the thickness of the Sigma.

And there's no mention of what grit the Spyderco are, other than 'ultrafine', etc.

Kinda like comparing oilstones and waterstones all over again. They both work, just get about the job in different ways.

(When I said "the same thing", I meant that both the Spyderco and Sigma ceramic are AlOx abrasive with an alumina binder, compressed then fired in a kiln and fused into a 'stone'. More like a bathroom tile than a 'stone' really.)

(Oh, I think that Sigma were making some stones for Spyderco at one time or another. I could be wrong, and I'd have to ask.)

Stu.

Chris Griggs

08-07-2011, 2:24 PM

Archie and I live in the same area and get together periodically to play in the shop. I was at Archie's yesterday and used all these stones with him. I have always used Nortons, and I can say without out any hesitation that they are not even in the same league as the Sigmas. I knew the Sigmas would be better, but I could not have imagined just how much better they would be. Much faster, almost no dishing. If you freehand you will especially appreciate how much better they feel. They feel simultaneously hard, yet soft and smooth on the surface. The blade just glides across the stone, making it very easy to maintain your bevel angle. The 1k works up a mud very quickly, but it's a small amount of mud that for some reason doesn't create much mess. It's like a silky, chalky mud, that spreads itself VERY thinly across the surface. The mud provides the perfect lubrication without globbing up. It is not at all sticky and washes away easily when you're done. It's weird, the attributes of the Sigma's (the 1k in particular) almost seem to contradict eachother. Hard, yet soft - Agressive, yet silky smooth - Muddy, but not messy. It's really an amazing stone.

I also had a chance to play with Archie's oil stones, and they were VERY nice. I especially love the feel and cutting action of his soft Arkansas. In fact I liked it's feel even a little better than the Sigmas - it is however much slower.

After playing around with these various stones yesterday, Nortons have quickly moved the bottom of the barrel for me. Yes Nortons will get you from point A to point B, but I would MUCH prefer to use either Arkansas Stones or Sigmas over my current Norton setup, and will be ordering some Sigmas of my own very soon.

Additionally, I'll mention that Archie got an iWood 300 diamond stone from Stu for flattening his water stones. My understanding is that it's not as good as an Atoma, but I can say that it puts DMTs (especially dia sharps) to absolute shame.

Anyone considering new water stones, should definitely have Sigma's at the top of your list. They are simply amazing.

Orlando Gonzalez

08-07-2011, 2:43 PM

Yep, have been high on them for a while. Got them all from Stu.

My collection (there are 9 Sigmas in the picture): :o

204350

Not pictured are Atomas #400 and #600 and DMTs 8" & 10" Coarse/X-Coarse Diamond Plates for flattening the stones.

george wilson

08-07-2011, 2:56 PM

I guess everything is getting incredibly expensive!! Well,I can hardly get out the door to buy groceries and gas for less than a few hundred dollars any more!

I was able to get my Spydercos from Brownell's at a professional discount,but that was long ago. Funny,the older you get,the least time seems to have elapsed.

Charlie MacGregor

08-07-2011, 4:52 PM

Archie England

08-07-2011, 5:09 PM

A few months ago, I got the power select II 1k for flattening backs and it's worked well. I've thought of going deeper into Sigmas and replacing my Nortons but am a little confused over Power vs Power Select II as it relates to just A-2 steel. ?? Also what's the proper progression?

Thanks.

Look at Orlando's post and pics. Now, that's a fantastic array of stones.

Like you, I've worked with Norton waterstones (220, 1000, 4000, and 8000) and loved them. I decided to give them to a friend, since I've got oil stones, plus grinders etc. So, on a whim, I started asking about other waterstones. Turns out that the ceramic (newer generation) water stones are just head and tail superior to the older Kings and Nortons. In my original post, I indicated that the Sigma Powers were at least 3x faster than the Nortons.

The Sigma power ceramic is different from the Select IIs. The Select IIs are pure sintered abrasive without any binder to bond and hold the abrasive--therefore they cut very, very fast but dish faster, too. However, the select IIs are supposed to be finished so quickly that the dishing doesn't affect much; they just need lapping for correction. The Sigma powers are not as fast as the select IIs but are very much more dish resistant. At approx 60% of the cost of the Chosera stones but at 100% of similar performance, the Sigma powers work wonderfully. Check out Chris G.'s earlier post above.

As far as progression, I'm not the authority. But I'm quite happy with the 1000-6000 (and I have a 13000 coming soon) that I currently own. I think that something may be need between the Sigma power 120 and the Sigma hard 1000; but, I'm so new to my new line up that I may just need a little more slurry and time on the 1000. I'll report back on that later.

Flattening blade backs is exactly what I bought my Sigma power ceramics for doing. They work--better, faster, smoother, and cleaner than my Nortons. There's just no comparison: the Sigmas are flat out way better. Perhaps guys like Orlando and David Weaver or others will chime in--like Wilbur--to address the Choseras, Shaptons, Besters, King Hyper, and other newer ceramics.

Good luck,

Arch

Chris Griggs

08-07-2011, 5:17 PM

brian c miller

08-07-2011, 5:42 PM

Are these the same as the Sigma stone Lee Valley has stated to carry?

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?cat=51&p=67089

Chris Griggs

08-07-2011, 5:47 PM

Lee Valley is selling the select IIs. The regular Sigma hards can be gotten here (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_403).

Are these the same as the Sigma stone Lee Valley has stated to carry?

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?cat=51&p=67089

David Nelson1

08-07-2011, 6:22 PM

How quickly the USD has tanked against the Yen, despite Japan's govt devaluing the Yen. When I ordered mine, the 13000 listed at $129, and because I bought several other stones, Stu offered a better deal. So, I don't know exactly how much it ended up being as an individual stone, but it certainly was not closer to $150. These days, our USD currency is going to suffer. Arrgh!

My response to David is not intended as offensive or defensive: I merely don't want to mislead anyone. That's why I responded above as "just about the cost."

Tools from Japan has the Sigma 13000 listed this morning at $140.21, without the base. His prices fluctuate in accordance with exchange rate changes.

Thanks,

Arch

No offense taken. I took the base price from Sigmas website and looked @ as few places on the net is how derived my conclusion.

Orlando Gonzalez

08-07-2011, 6:30 PM

I'm definitely not an expert but an educated user. Arch and I had a long phone conversation the other day and we both have some things in common. Woodworking for us is an enjoyable hobby to be practised when time permits with no time constraints (that is, we work when we want to and at the pace we want to), we are definitely not in the same league as many here are in terms of skills and ability, and that we like and enjoy sharpening. :eek: :D For us it's therapeutic. We enjoy the experience of improving our skills and learning something new about the stones and steel.

Picking a sharpening medium/stone is like buying a car. You will have those that prefer Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Honda, Toyota, etc. But in the end they all do the same thing - transport you to whatever destination is and back while using up gas. Same thing for sharpening mediums - Worksharp 3000, Scary Sharp, Oilstones, Shaptons, Nortons, King, Spyderco, Naniwa SupeStones and Chosera, Sigma, Bester, diamond plates, diamond paste, etc. They all do the same thing - make steel sharp. The bottom line is that there is no one "best" medium or stone. It boils down to personal preferences of what you use and how much of it you have accumulated.

I have tried most of the mediums/stones I mentioned - Worksharp 3000, Scary Sharp, King, Shapton (Pros & Glasstones), Naniwas, Bester, Oilstones, and Sigma. I found that for "my liking" I prefer the Sigma (plus an Arashiyama and Chosera) for pretty much the reasons mentioned by the OP and others. I use the oilstones and a Norton Crystolon primarily for my Gary Blum plane blades but I have also used them just for the heck of it, or because I felt like it using them at that particular moment. I also have, and use, a 10" Jet Wet Grinder, a slo-speed 8" grinder, and the Viel 1" belt grinder. They each has their purpose in my sharpening system.

I agree that you need a stone between the Sigma #120/#240 and the 1K. That is why I have the Chosera #400 and the Sigma 3F Carbon #700 which incidentally both work very, very well. It just depends on how the steel is behaving. I have come to the unscientific conclusion that no one O-1 steel blade/chisel is exactly the same as another due to the forging, heating, and tempering processes. I have noticed that there are differences between them in how quickly a particular grit removes scratches as you go through the stone progression. For this reason, sometimes I can go from the Chosera #400 to the 1K but there are times that I have to stop and visit the Sigma #700 before going to the 1K. But then again this is just my observation and preference.

After the 1K I go to the one of the 6Ks unless I have to stop by the Suehiro Rika 5K for the reason I mentioned above. Then it's off to the 8K, 10K or 13K, and if I'm in the mood I go to the Japanese natural water stones.

For me what I use depends on what the alignment of the planets and stars are at the moment. ;)

Archie England

08-07-2011, 6:44 PM

I'm definitely not an expert but an educated user. Arch and I had a long phone conversation the other day and we both have somethings in common. Woodworking for us is an enjoyable hobby to be practised when time permits with no time constraints (that is, we work when we want to and at the pace we want to), we are definitely not in the same league as many here are in terms of skills and ability, and that we like and enjoy sharpening. :eek: :D For us it's therapeutic. We enjoy the experience of improving our skills and learning something new about the stones and steel.

Picking a sharpening medium/stone is like buying a car. You will have those that prefer Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Honda, Toyota, etc. But in the end they all do the same thing - transport you to whatever destination is and back whike using up gas. Same thing for a sharpening mediums - Worksharp 3000, Scary Sharp, Oilstones, Shaptons, Nortons, King, Spyderco, Naniwa SupeStones and Chosera, Sigma, Bester, diamond plates, diamond paste, etc. They all do the same thing - make steel sharp. The bottom line is that there is no one "best" medium or stone. It boils down to personal preferences of what you use and how much of it you have accumulated.

I have tried most of the mediums/stones I mentioned - Worksharp 3000, Scary Sharp, King, Shapton (Pros & Glasstones), Naniwas, Bester, Oilstones, and Sigma. I found that for "my liking" I prefer the Sigma (plus an Arashiyama and Chosera) for pretty much the reason mentioned by the OP and others. I use the oilstones and a Norton Crystollon primarily for my Gary Blum plane blades but I have also used them just for the heck of it, or because I felt like it using them at that particular moment. I also have, and use, a 10" Jet Wet Grinder, a slo-speed 8" grinder, and the Viel 1" belt grinder. They each has their purpose in my sharpening system.

I agree that you need a stone between the Sigma #120/#240 and the 1K. That is why I have the Chosera #400 and the Sigma 3F Carbon #700 which incidentally both work very, very well. It just depends on how the steel is behaving. I have come to the unscientific conclusion that no one O-1 steel blade/chisel is exactly the same as another due to the forging, heating, and tempering processes. I have noticed that there are differences between them in how quickly a particular grit removes scratches as you go through the stone progression. For this reason, sometimes I can go from the Chosera #400 to the 1K but there are times that I have to stop and visit the Sigma #700 before going to the 1K. But then again this is just my observation and preference.

After the 1K I go to the one of the 6Ks unless I have to stop by the Suehiro Rika 5K for the reason I mentioned above. Then it's off to the 8K, 10K or 13K, and if I'm in the mood I go to the Japanese natural water stones.

For me what I use depends on what the alignment of the planets and stars are at the moment. ;)

Totally agree!!! I'm doing this for fun, relaxation, and diffusion of stress. Any semblance of work produced is just topping on the cake. Now, Orlando is way ahead of me in terms of cool toys; but, I'm learning!!!

David Weaver

08-07-2011, 7:05 PM

Can't say much about the shapton pros and choseras other than that they work very well and I can get the shaptons cheap by being patient on ebay, but the choseras....not so much. Did find the cho 10k for $200 or $220 or something by buying an unused one from someone who had received the stone as a gift. Still it's a luxury x 2 at that price. If someone made a stone twice as hard as those two, I'd buy it even if it was a bit slower, as speed doesn't do anything for me past 1000 grit. The majority of my time (because of dimensioning wood) when sharpening is screwing around with stupid double irons and fiddling with the plane.

About a year ago, I got past the point of productively buying more stones for a combination of reasons (and I had at one time one of the worst combinations of money burning a hole in my pocket and curiosity).
* the dollar/yen situation has only gotten worse, and it will probably continue. It has increased prices more than 1 1/2 times over the last few years, above and beyond inflation,
* I can sharpen everything I have, and any tools I've bought since then have been better and better examples of simple steels done properly. Whiz bang steels in chisels to this point have shown no ability to match craftsman produced plain steels at angles where you'd want to use your chisels (<30).
* I am tired of trying to sell stones that I DO have, as i'm out of drawer space. Buying is fun, but the time spent taking pictures, listing, emailing, packing ....old stones is like a two hour penalty, and with the economy the way it is, everyone wants a bargain. So do I. But it's not good to be the seller in that case.
* i used to enjoy the sharpening discussions, but I'm worn out on them. i could do every bit of work that I do with a hard arkansas and some abrasive paste. Sometimes I forget that, not as much lately.
* any plane coarser than a jointer is sharpened on a trizact belt on a small belt grinder, and a loaded leather stationary sander disc. You can't touch that method on heavily cambered irons with stones. Same with HSS - that combination. No stone can touch it. Makes no sense to get anal retentive about geometry on HSS plane irons, they can't hold an edge at high clearance angles, so it's not critical.

I did buy a suehiro rika and a chosera 400. the latter is a good stone for japanese tools. I don't like the former at all. An advanced sharpener is bound to despise it because soft stones compromise geometry when freehanding. The only stone that can be soft and have no practical effect on geometry is the last one.

I did really enjoy trying all of the sharpening stones for a while, though, but I'm done. The only thing I have patience for is a better razor stone - like a mine-graded kamisori stone (not a woodworking natural finishing stone that someone says is good enough for razors, I've got several of those).

David Weaver

08-07-2011, 7:47 PM

I should probably add, before it sounds like I'm poo pooing... if you're buying your first set of stones, you might as well get the best ones you can afford. You might have to buy one extra time if you get soft ones and try a hard stone and decide you like it better. Once you have some that you like, though, the "best" stone changes every 5 years, hard to keep up, but easy to be curious and feel like you want to. I plan on wearing my stones out now- i hope.

Archie England

08-07-2011, 8:52 PM

I need to call out David Weaver and give him a public, hearty "THANK YOU." David very graciously gave me his counsel and access via questions to his vast experience from trying so many different stones-both natural and synthetic. If he hadn't told me how young he was, I would have guessed a man possessing such knowledge and experience to be much older than the young married fellow that he is. David, you genuinely helped me sort through this "hunt for the better mouse trap"!

My inclination was to buy the best until I discovered how much the best cost. Ouch! That's a lot a moula for these increasingly difficult times. Like so many, I've tried the various sharpening venues and decided against most of them for one failure or another. Evidently, the perfect method is just a bit more than I can afford, or it's just a bit further down the road. Having a good bit of experience with Ark stones, I wanted stones that felt responsive and decided that the hard, less responsive stones would not be for me. But, having only experience with synthetic and Arkansas oil stones, along with a combo set of Nortons, I didn't have much basis for making an informed decision. THUS, it's here that I need to thank all of you who have participated in former sharpening discussions with me. All of this information helped me greatly. What I decided was this, all water stones will get my blades to sharpness. Not all stones will get me there as quickly. Since oil stones are practically as fast as Norton water stones, why not buy better stones? Oh, what's a better stone. Like theological arguments, three debaters will have seven opinions. Eek gads! Being less on the monied side and having more time than dough, I've waited and waded through hundreds of forum threads of tool gurus, knife sharpeners (nice folk), and razor guys (also nice, but a tad too stoked). What I heard repeatedly was hard, medium, and soft. The shaptons practically own the hard stone format, but there are plenty looking to dethrone them. Naniwa took the mountain of medium with the greatest tendency for tactile responsiveness. Again, plenty others aiming for that title, too. And the soft, well the elite, the pure, and the experts own the realm of the genuine "soft" stones--not for us paideia (beginners, as a slang for Greek young child). Though I wanted the flatness of the Shapton followers, I more wanted a responsive stone. Poor Stuart Tierney. Never has one person worked so hard to earn the business of a prospect. I inundated the man with my life's story so that he could build for me--my perfect mouse trap. BTW, HE DID JUST THAT. The guy's amazing. Even sick he managed to get it right. Let's see, for all my thoughts and wants, it came down to hard, cold cash. And the best bang for a stone that possessed both feeling and hard dish resistance...for a much smaller entrance price...was the Sigma Power ceramic stones.

So to David, Orlando, Stu, Chris, and the many others who contributed to what has become a joyous decision--THANK YOU. Now, as David W. has stated, let's use these tools and get on with business.....

David Weaver

08-08-2011, 9:57 AM

My inclination was to buy the best until I discovered how much the best cost. Ouch!

Best might mean different things to different people, but you very well may have the best woodworking stones, regardless of cost. I have never tried them (that's one of the few I haven't tried), so I don't know, but they seem to be very well liked.

Rodger Kanis

08-08-2011, 11:50 AM

OK, you've piqued my interest on the Sigma Power series of stones.

I'm getting ready to buy some stones (my first), and the choices seem to be vast. These stones sound like a good combination of performance and price. I'm not afraid to pay for quality and performance, as I've paid dearly many times in the past for lower-quality or rash decisions. I'd be looking at the Sigma Power 1000 (hard) and 6000.

My sharpening needs are for plane irons (Lie Nielsen A-2 steel) and bench & mortise chisels.

From what I've learned, all stones need to be dressed/flattened at some point due to the wear (dishing in) on the stone. What do you use for these hard ceramic stones? I would guess something diamond-based. Should I buy a diamond stone? Use a glass plate and some diamond paper or compound?

Also, I would probably need at #120 stone for repairing damage or quickly changing angles/camber. True?

Thank you for your help... I've learned quite a bit from this thread so far.

-Rodger

Archie England

08-08-2011, 12:36 PM

Best might mean different things to different people, but you very well may have the best woodworking stones, regardless of cost. I have never tried them (that's one of the few I haven't tried), so I don't know, but they seem to be very well liked.

Well, the Sigma power ceramic 1000 is not best in the category of splash-n-go. I haven't used Shapton Pro stones but I think very highly of them because so many knowledgeable woodworkers use them. A Shapton 1k & 2k may be in my future once I work through the winter months with Japanese stones. With the Nortons, I would never have brought them inside to the kitchen. The Sigmas, on the other hand, are not messy like the Nortons at all. And, unlike the Norton stones, the Sigma powers are "fun" to use, although I'm at a loss to pinpoint what precisely I mean to convey. Perhaps I'm combining the less mess with the super sharp edge, along with a mirror polish, and very good scratch removal. Oh, and the feel is like working on silky velvet with an extra-firm support. I'll leave the more technical issues (micron size, consistency, scratch patterns, honing capability, polish and finish) to you advanced sharpeners. What I care to convey is that for a very competitive price I purchased a very competitive product that achieves incredibly fantastic sharpened results.

BTW, the 13000 just arrived! Got to check it out.

Thanks, again.

Archie

David Weaver

08-08-2011, 12:45 PM

Atoma 400 or DMT duosharp with a 325 grit side to flatten and periodically lap 1000+ ceramic stones. Use whatever you buy only for the stones. Use the surface that laps the stones only for the stones, never use it to sharpen tools.

Quickly changing angles and camber should be done on something that plugs in unless you're working on something that absolutely can't tolerate much heat (japanese white steel, etc). Even that can be dry power sharpened with some care and experience, but the margin for screwups is narrow. If you have a belt sander (and no grinder), that is where you should add significant camber or change angles - with a 60 or 80 grit belt (which runs cooler than an equivalent grit wheel, as long as there's not a super rigid platen behind the belt - which can heat things up quickly at a given point that's not being moved fast enough).

Other than that narrow definition (japanese tools), I can't think of a good reason to use a coarse stone instead of a grinder or belt sander. There's a good reason you don't see most people talking about using a really coarse stone much.

Jim Koepke

08-08-2011, 1:00 PM

Also, I would probably need at #120 stone for repairing damage or quickly changing angles/camber. True?

I must be missing something. How often do folks change the angle camber on a chisel or plane blade?

In my experience, it is just easier to have different chisels or plane blades.

There's a good reason you don't see most people talking about using a really coarse stone much.

My experience with low grit water stones is that they wear too fast to do much work. Some abrasive sheets glued to a flat surface is more practical and quicker for flattening backs or getting past nicks.

jtk

Archie England

08-08-2011, 1:15 PM

Your on the path where I just was. Happy hunting. It's all good, if not definitively better!

O1/A2 Steel issues....
Though I ordered the Sigma Power 1000 hard, 6000, and 13000, I only had the first two to start with. Chris Griggs brought over his Ashley Illes and WoodRiver chisels, to which I added an old 750, some NOS Irwins, and my LNs. So, we had quite a range of O1 to A2 steel for testing the sharpening. Also, I have excellent Ark stones, along with Norton combo set 220-1k-4k-8k: we tested these steels on all three sets. As my first post indicated, the Sigma ceramics just ran away from the others in speed and quality of edge and finish. Chris and I both agreed that the 6000 Sigma produced a better edge and finish that the Norton 8000. Likewise, we agreed that the Hard translucent Ark equaled the Norton 8000 in edge but not finish/polish. The Sigma 6000 was superior to both.

How to flatten...
Stu recommended, and I bought, the Sigma 120 brick (it shreds steel in hurry, Oh my!) and an iWood 300 diamond stone. The iWood perfectly flattens the Sigma ceramic 1k and 6k. Chris has the diasharp and felt that the iWood was head and tails superior to the DMT. I've got a duo sharp, and the iWood appeared superior to that as well. BTW, the iWood was Stu's second best compared to the Atoma 400; but I was short on cash or courage--take your pick.

What works for blades in tough shape...
Yes, but Stu has warned me against using the 120 on chisels due to its ability to leave such deep scratches. I'm checking out other intermediate rough grit stones. The Beston 500 and the Chosera 400 get great reviews, as has the Gesshin 400. However, I expect that dishing and mess is more likely in these lower grits. A fellow SMC'er is loaning me a Shapton low grit to try for a while. I'll post a response about how that works.

Glad to return the blessings bestowed by others!!!

Rodger Kanis

08-08-2011, 1:32 PM

I must be missing something. How often do folks change the angle camber on a chisel or plane blade?

In my experience, it is just easier to have different chisels or plane blades.

jtk

No... you're not missing anything. I just didn't think through my post enough before typing, and I'm new to woodworking and sharpening... my fault! :o I think "changing" camber was definitely the wrong wording. I guess "adding" would have made more sense, as in preparing a new iron (or blank) that didn't have it already... not something done very often, indeed!

I appreciate your help, and the grinder and/or paper/plate is what I was first thinking as well instead of a very coarse stone.

Stuart Tierney

08-08-2011, 1:41 PM

My experience with low grit water stones is that they wear too fast to do much work. Some abrasive sheets glued to a flat surface is more practical and quicker for flattening backs or getting past nicks.

jtk

Hi Jim,

You and pretty much everyone else has the same experience.

Of the 20 or so 'coarse' stones I've used in anger, there's 5 or so that buck the trend of not being soft and mushy and yet cut quickly and effectively.

They are; Sigma #120, Sigma Select II #240, Sigma 3F carbon #700, Naniwa Chosera #400, King Deluxe #400L.

Until last week, the Chosera was a 'go to' stone for heavy work. But the King showed up last week. I wish I had the King for working over a yanagiba knife that needed a lot of work, but that job's done thanks to the Chosera.

Cheap, massive, hard, durable, dish resistant and it cuts everything I can throw at it. The King might not be the best for everyone, but it's danged good. I've heard the Gesshin is also very good, and it's worth looking at too.

(Did I mention it does not need soaking?)

Sorry, the King is not available outside of Japan. Main reason? It's MASSIVE and weighs 3kg so shipping is going to be expensive regardless of how/who it gets out of Japan. If you do find a King #400 locally, it's probably NOT the same as the one I have.

I know this may sound odd, but I just can't consider using diamonds or sandpaper after using these stones. I suspect it's the "just push harder to make it go faster" that makes paper and diamonds fall to pieces where as the stones don't.

Stepping out of here now. I don't want to influence things by so much as to get into trouble. ;)

Stu.

David Weaver

08-08-2011, 1:47 PM

Shapton's 1000 grit is the lowest grit to try in my experience. The lower grits will load and are not that nice to use. A frustrated inexperienced sharpener can get all of the shaptons to load actually, but the trick to unload them is extremely easy - one pass of short strokes.

Large grit stones are full of compromises, they will be:
* loading (non porous coarse grit stones like shaptons load fast)
* wear too fast (if they are soft and release abrasive quickly, this will occur - example norton 220 - a worthless stone for putting anything flat on)
* wear too slow (if they are harder, like the chosera, and you are lapping something, you will actually need to refresh the surface not because of loading but because the stones are hard. Think of how you get an oilstone to keep its speed - you dress the surface fairly often. the stone doesn't even have to be loaded, but you can wear the abrasive some before it lets go.

I like the chosera of all of the stones because it chooses option #3. stones that do that for some things, like sharpening knives, where only a small bevel touches the stone will have the abrasive jarred loose. But big wide bevels and flat backs don't pry the abrasive loose if the binder is strong.

The big coarse stones are also a bear to flatten - and if they do dish while you're flattening the back of something, you get to start over on them, because you'll never remove their evidence on the next finer stone. Much nicer to have a hard stone to avoid that. If the chosera is absolutely not an option (fill in beston 500, i guess, never used one, but saw it described as a good option if one doesn't want to spend the money), I would rather use norton 3x on a granite plate with even adhesive to hold them down to avoid dubbing. Behind that, I'd go with the shaptons if I had to. I would never under any circumstance buy the norton 220 for anything - way back before it got a bad rep, I bought one. I gave it away to someone, can't remember who, but whoever got it free, I was better off than them just because I no longer had it.

I seem to not be able to get an answer to this question, but I'll ask again. What's the difference between the sigma power black carborundum stone and a coarse crystolon stone?

David Weaver

08-08-2011, 1:54 PM

..diamonds fall to pieces..

One exception to this - no stone will touch loose diamonds for back flattening on a cast or mild steel plate, speed or cost.

Diamonds on electroplate and pressure - bad. Very bad. Very expensive bad.

Diamonds loose and lots of pressure - fantastic. No limit to the amount of pressure you can use. It'll be difficult to use $10 worth of diamonds in 5 years. They cost about $1.50 for each 5 carats. In four years, I've used about ...5 carats. Did pay $18 for a kanaban, but since it's mild steel, it can easily be flattened by washing the swarf off and then lapping on psa roll paper once every few years. Derek wisely pointed us in the direction of using any scrap cast (broken plane parts, etc) to make that free.

Archie England

08-08-2011, 2:05 PM

I seem to not be able to get an answer to this question, but I'll ask again. What's the difference between the sigma power black carborundum stone and a coarse crystolon stone?

I'll give a raw, inexperienced reply--

My carborundum stones are light to dark charcoal gray and have a very tightly grained face. The Sigma 120 has more the appearance of a natural sponge. There's visible pockets everywhere, but not huge gaps. On my c stones, I rarely have grains pop off; on the Sig 120 I see grains of various sizes beneath the stone--enough to think I could just move the stone down to the loos grit for further scratching. Oh, and the scratches are deep. It takes a lot of work for the 1000 Sigma hard to lap out the majority of them, and a few get past it. I'm convinced an intermediate stone is necessary to follow the Sigma 120. But what?

David Weaver

08-08-2011, 2:14 PM

Is this for backs or bevels? The scratches from that stone are probably almost as deep as 100 grit diamonds. I just use a bester 1000 until they're out, or the shapton 1000 - probably 2 minutes worth of work. I leave my irons in a holder until I'm done lapping the back, so that making jumps like that isn't difficult. You can probably get 10 times the pressure on the back without compromising flatness. You'll see japanese blacksmiths flattening irons in a holder - there's a very good reason they use them. They're faster, and a lot easer on the user than fingers.

For bevels, I know you have the power tools to grind bevels - that's where they'd go if I had them.

Archie England

08-08-2011, 2:21 PM

David Weaver

08-08-2011, 2:36 PM

Put that 1000 stone on something stable, non-skid and non-flexible and make yourself an iron holder. I'll bet it'll take those scratches out.

Having only tried shapton, norton and chosera stones (and a bunch of oilstones) below 1000 grit, I would get the 400 grit chosera if you're really jonesing for something to fill the gap. The 400 cho wasn't expensive like the 10000 chosera is.

Dave Cav

08-09-2011, 1:01 AM

Stuart Tierney

08-09-2011, 2:23 AM

I just read through this thread with a great deal of interest as the Sigmas sound like a great alternative to the Sharptons, which are on my short list. I looked through the Tools from Japan website and found the Sigma stones, but I'm not familiar with the Stu individual mentioned in the above posts. Can someone point me to him or send me a PM?
Thanks

(Should I be sarcastic or serious here?)

It's me.

I wish I could tell you somewhere else to buy the Sigma ceramic stones (not Select II, they're a different animal all together) but there really isn't anywhere else.

And I mean that. There isn't anywhere else on the blue ball we live on that lists the full list of Sigma ceramics. Even here.

Except Sigma Power themselves, and they'll probably send you to me to get them shipped out. They only like to send them overseas by the pallet load...

I don't quite understand it myself, but it is what it is. Makes it really difficult to say too much about them, because (ha hah!) if you want one, I get to sell it to you.

Stu.

(Slightly embarrassed...)

Chris Griggs

08-09-2011, 7:07 AM

I just read through this thread with a great deal of interest as the Sigmas sound like a great alternative to the Sharptons, which are on my short list. I looked through the Tools from Japan website and found the Sigma stones, but I'm not familiar with the Stu individual mentioned in the above posts. Can someone point me to him or send me a PM?
Thanks

Also if you send an email to store@toolsfromjapan.com it goes directly to Stu. As Stu said, he is the only person I know of who you can get them from, but despite his monopoly on the Sigma market, he is very fair and really just a great guy to work with. In general, if you send him an email with a quick, easy to answer question he will get back to you within a day. If you send him a more long winded email, he may take a couple days to get back to you, but this is because he takes his time to write a very informative personalized response. I can't think of anyone who I'd rather send my money too.

Dave Cav

08-09-2011, 1:47 PM

john brenton

08-09-2011, 2:06 PM

A lot of experienced woodworkers stick with the "scary sharp" (for lack of a better definition) system. I would stick to that and get a higher grit polishing stone. Anywhere from 4k to 8k would be good. 4k doesn't put the mirror shine on, but it still makes for a very keen edge.

OK, thanks for the clairification. I didn't realize Tools from Japan/Stu were one in the same; since the prices on the T.F.J. web site were quoted in yen I assumed it was an offshore site. The still sound like great stones and reasonably priced relative to the alternatives.

Ok, another question. I abandoned conventional oil and water stones years ago because of the mess and "infrastructure". I'm just not into the Zen sharpening thing. I have been using Scary Sharp up through about 2000 grit because it's quick, relatively inexpensive and it works well for me. I'm now seriously considering switching to the newer ceramic stones because it sounds like they cut quickly, stay flat, and aren't messy. If I was only going to get two or three Sigma stones, which ones? Sounds like a 1000, but what after that?

Thanks again.

Zahid Naqvi

08-09-2011, 2:31 PM

Chris Griggs

08-09-2011, 2:32 PM

OK, thanks for the clairification. I didn't realize Tools from Japan/Stu were one in the same; since the prices on the T.F.J. web site were quoted in yen I assumed it was an offshore site. The still sound like great stones and reasonably priced relative to the alternatives.

Ok, another question. I abandoned conventional oil and water stones years ago because of the mess and "infrastructure". I'm just not into the Zen sharpening thing. I have been using Scary Sharp up through about 2000 grit because it's quick, relatively inexpensive and it works well for me. I'm now seriously considering switching to the newer ceramic stones because it sounds like they cut quickly, stay flat, and aren't messy. If I was only going to get two or three Sigma stones, which ones? Sounds like a 1000, but what after that?

Thanks again.

For the Sigmas, you want a 1k and 6k. The 6k is actually a finer stone than a Norton 8k, but it is also more aggressive, if that makes sense. I think the Norton 8k polishes a little more but the Sigma 6k leaves a better edge, and the polish that it does create is much more consistent. What Archie and I found was that because of it's extra aggressive it was harder to hone the burr off with a Sigma 6k than a Norton 8k. However, if you take two blades one coming of a Norton 8k and one coming off a Sigma 6k, and then go to a strop to remove any remaining burr, the blade from the Sigma 6k comes off the strop much sharper than the one off the Norton. You could easily get by with just the Sigma 1k, 6k and strop and never have a need for anything else. You could follow the 6k with either the 8k, 10k or 13k. Archie got the 13k, which I haven't had a chance to try yet, but I know he is very pleased with it.

I'll add that while the Sigmas are relatively low maintenance water stone they will still require maintenance including regular, although minimal, flattening. Personally, I'll take waterstone maintenance over scary sharp any day - but if you are absolutely against any amount of soaking and flattening the Sigma's may not be for you.

EDIT: BTW i just sent my order to Stu last night, can't wait to get my own set!!!

Archie England

08-09-2011, 4:33 PM

OK, thanks for the clairification. I didn't realize Tools from Japan/Stu were one in the same; since the prices on the T.F.J. web site were quoted in yen I assumed it was an offshore site. The still sound like great stones and reasonably priced relative to the alternatives.

Ok, another question. I abandoned conventional oil and water stones years ago because of the mess and "infrastructure". I'm just not into the Zen sharpening thing. I have been using Scary Sharp up through about 2000 grit because it's quick, relatively inexpensive and it works well for me. I'm now seriously considering switching to the newer ceramic stones because it sounds like they cut quickly, stay flat, and aren't messy. If I was only going to get two or three Sigma stones, which ones? Sounds like a 1000, but what after that?

Thanks again.

All of this arose from my need to flatten the blade backs of numerous chisels and plane blades. I have multiple grinder options to address the bevel side of sharpening; so, I'm really set there. But neither a grinder nor a Tormek functionally flatten blade backs. So, I've used sandpaper, oil stones, Ark stones, and Nortons. Now, I'm overwhelmed and abundantly pleased by the Sigma Power Ceramic stones--1k/6k/13k. Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sharp and polished.

Practically, I could stop at the 6000, plus a clean leather strop. But the 13000 just cuts and polishes like a dream. There's absolutely no need for any further stones. ! . ! . !

The Sigma 1000 can dish, but it is highly resistant. My iWood 300 quickly flattens it and raises a wonderful slurry. What separates the Norton from the Sigma is both speed and mess. The Sigmas are incredibly faster cutting and better polishing than the Norton. The Sigmas are very not messy; unlike the Norton 1000 that shed water and thin slurry everywhere. The Sigma 6000 requires no soak, nor does it need much water. There's less mess with it than with my Ark stones, which are quite easy to use also. Again, the Sigmas just run away from the competition in the arena of speed!! They work fast, clean(er), and leave a gorgeous polish. The longer I work on each respective stone, the more polishing it does. Supposedly this differs from other stones, in that the Sigmas have not yet topped out in how well they will finish the edge.

No relations to Stu or TFJ, just a happy customer :)

Archie England

08-09-2011, 4:39 PM

So any one used/tested these Sigma stones and Shaptons both, just curious as to how they compare to each other. I have a few Shaptons as the primary sharpening stones but have never used (actually even heard of till this thread) the Sigma stones.

Zahid, check with Orlando. In an earlier thread he listed the various stones, including Shapton Pro, that he had worked with. The Sigma Power Ceramics became his primary water stones. These Sigmas are not the same Select II that LV sells. They are better all-around users as opposed to the Select IIs which excel at metal removal and speed but are less dish resistant. The way I'd put to other woodworkers: the Sigma powers won't work as quickly once composite metals are engaged but will outlast the Select IIs in longevity at every step along the way. Those who own both should speak up and address this better than I have.

george wilson

08-09-2011, 10:07 PM

Wilbur Pan

08-09-2011, 11:49 PM

So any one used/tested these Sigma stones and Shaptons both, just curious as to how they compare to each other. I have a few Shaptons as the primary sharpening stones but have never used (actually even heard of till this thread) the Sigma stones.

I have a Sigma Power Ceramic 1000 and a Shapton Pro 1000. For me, it's really hard to pick which one I like better. Both cut very quickly and stay flat. In my hands, the Shapton seems to cut slightly faster, and works well without soaking. Stu has said that Shaptons benefit from soaking, which I believe, but I haven't found this to be a necessity.

The Shapton is a lot thinner than the Sigma. The Sigma gives you much more waterstone for your money. It's going to take me a long time to wear out the Shapton, however.

The Sigma requires soaking, which is a little bit of an inconvenience. It only takes about 5 minutes of soaking in water to get it up and running, though, and what I do is put it into water when I get into the shop, and by the time I need to do any sharpening, it's ready to go.

Basically, it's kind of like the choice between a Lie-Nielsen and a Lee Valley plane. You're going to do well with either one. If I only had either the Shapton Pro 1000 or the Sigma Power Ceramic 1000, I wouldn't see a need to switch to the other one. Either one is going to be a marked improvement over Nortons, and faster than oilstones, as Archie noted.

Harvey Pascoe

08-10-2011, 8:50 AM

Am I the only one who wonders what you all do that you can afford to pay out that kind of money for stones?

David Weaver

08-10-2011, 9:05 AM

Stuart Tierney

08-10-2011, 9:09 AM

Am I the only one who wonders what you all do that you can afford to pay out that kind of money for stones?

I dunno about the rest of the folks here, but I sell sharpening stones... :D

And some other tools too.

Stu.

(And yes, I can write off the cost as a tax deduction. Nice work, if you can get it. ;) )

Chris Griggs

08-10-2011, 10:15 AM

Am I the only one who wonders what you all do that you can afford to pay out that kind of money for stones?

Actually Harvey, I think that's a good question, one I've often wondered myself, so here is my answer.

I'm a college adviser - 29 yrs old and early in my career. My fiancee and I are saving for a house, a cross country move and paying out the wazoo in student loans every month. We both make a pretty good living, but are not wealthy by any means.

That said, I have no kids and don't own a home, don't have a car payment or ongoing credit card payments, and even though I have a car, I bike to work most days so I'm not getting killed by gas prices like everyone else.

I literally, just yesterday put in an order for some sigmas. Did I need them? No, but then again I don't need to woodwork at all. I'll be the first to admit that the amount of money I've put into this hobby is ridiculous. Seriously, it's absurd...

Now I don't have the means or desire to buy as many stones as Orlando and David (not that I think there's anything wrong with it), but for me it's worth it to put money into a high quality set of stones that I enjoy (yes I said enjoy) using. The easier, better, and more fun they are to use the more likely I am to keep my tools sharp, which helps make my woodworking, better, faster, and more enjoyable. I'd say, I put a big investment into something like stones,or a really fancy plane 2-3 times a year. Coincidentally, these purchases often correlate with my birthday and tax return season.

Also, if I end up having kids in a few years, I know I'll have almost no money to put into woodworking, so it makes sense for me to invest in things now that I will be able to use for the rest of my life.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

Chris Griggs

08-10-2011, 10:30 AM

Mike Henderson

08-10-2011, 11:38 AM

Well, not many of us are working wood for a living, as quickly getting tools sharp enough to work wood (when working wood is what really counts) really isn't a problem even with oil stones.

The whole sharpening stone thing is a bit of a contrived problem, a made market. It's for the hobbyists to kick around, as I gather the pros pick one set of stones and just use them and don't care outside of that.

There's nobody on here who can sharpen who couldn't get a good edge quickly with a cheap dry grinder, a hard arkansas stone and a piece of MDF with cheap abrasive compound (the abrasive in the compounds is the same as what's in the stones, some are better - chromium oxide will make anything in any kind of iron very sharp - $7 worth of it will last years).

But we do, in the hand tool community, like to chase little details around that are not functionally related to practical completion of woodworking tasks (count me in that as guilty, also). It must be fun for us, or we wouldn't do it! (and I wouldn't have so many stones, somewhere it was more about entertaining myself and curiosity than getting tools sharp - but I can admit that).
I agree, also. When I first started in woodworking, I tried a bunch of different techniques for sharpening. Now, what I want is fast. I have a WorkSharp 3000 that I use for establishing a bevel or flattening the back of a chisel, then Shaptons to do the secondary bevel and to polish the back. DMT diamond plate to flatten the Shaptons.

It used to take me forever to sharpen a set of chisels. Now, I can do a set in maybe 30 minutes, or less. [I teach hand cut dovetails and the students use my chisels so I have to do a lot of sharpening - aside from my own work.]

Mike

[I tried ceramic stones but prefer the Shaptons.]

george wilson

08-10-2011, 2:25 PM

I think in the final analysis,it boils down to whatever stones you feel the most comfortable with. Logic isn't usually what makes a lot of people make decisions.

Tony Shea

08-10-2011, 5:09 PM

Logic isn't usually what makes a lot of people make decisions.

Lol, i very much like this quote George. It certainly applies to many aspects of my tool buying endevours. Sharpening stones of late has been that lack of logic spot, although I'm beginning to calm down and stick with a certain few stones. Handsaws are another place where I don't use much logic in my decision to buy. Luckily most of my decision making that lacks logic is mostly to do with my wallet. Others seem to lack this logic in much more important decisions that effect their life and others permanently.

David Keller NC

08-10-2011, 10:44 PM

Am I the only one who wonders what you all do that you can afford to pay out that kind of money for stones?

That depends on what you mean. 1000X stones are generally pretty cheap. 8000X and up are less so.

However, this is actually the cheapest way to sharpen (stones, I mean - whether Oil, Water or Ceramic). Wet/Dry sandpaper sounds cheap, particularly when you consider that you can get a pack of 10 sheets of silicon carbide wet-dry paper for about $6, and a piece of float glass for $15 or less. So considering that you'll need perhaps 3 different grits (4 would be better), you're at $35. You'll need a leather strop and some honing compound with this set-up, so add about $15 for that. So all in all, you've made in investment of $50, or about what a Norton 1000X water stone costs.

The problem is that you might have to replace the Norton 1000X a couple of times in a 20 year hand-tool WW career (and that's doing a lot of woodworking). The 4000X stone will likely be used up once in 20 years. And the 8000X stone will last your working lifetime, plus the lifetime of at least another woodworker.

You'll be replacing the sandpaper about once every 2 months, possibly once every month.

That's harshly expensive compared to shelling out the approximately $300 for a Norton 1000X, a Norton 4000X, a Norton 8000X, and a DMT extra coarse Dia-Sharp to flatten the stones. If you use a granite surface plate and silicon carbide paper to flatten the waterstones as I do, and noting that I'm on the same piece of 220 grit silicon carbide paper that I was using last winter (Wet-Dry lasts a lot longer when just used to flatten water stones), you can reduce the total investment down to about $200.

Add to that calculation that sandpaper has the undesirable property of dubbing the edges of chisels and plane blades when used to remove a burr or polish the backs of blades, and that to compensate you'll have to grind/hone the blade edge back. That means significantly more wear on your plane blades and chisels, which aren't cheap.

Dave Cav

08-11-2011, 12:57 AM

The whole sharpening stone thing is a bit of a contrived problem, a made market. It's for the hobbyists to kick around, as I gather the pros pick one set of stones and just use them and don't care outside of that.

Heck, it's even worse than that where I work (I teach high school shop). The chisels go from the grinder to a felt wheel with green compound, and then on the rack. Lathe chisels and gouges are straight from the grinder.

Aaron Rappaport

08-11-2011, 12:59 AM

Has anyone here tried the Sigma 120 work for flattening the backs of really beat up blades?

Chris Griggs

08-11-2011, 7:40 AM

Has anyone here tried the Sigma 120 work for flattening the backs of really beat up blades?

Archie, who started this thread, got one for that purpose. I had a chance to use it, but hopefully he'll chime in since I only got to use it briefly.

It's a chainsaw, it cuts like crazy and is very hard. It is very thirsty and you need to continually pour water over it to prevent it from glazing - my understanding is that that is just sorta the nature of the beast with stones that course, but I can't really compare it to anything since I've never used any other stone in that grit range.

Anyway, it will grind down a back in a hurry, but it will also leave pretty deep scratches so you'll want something in the 400-600 range to take those out. I believe Archie has a Chosera 400 on the way for that purpose.

It's an impressive stone, unlike anything else I've ever used (although I haven't used all that many)....

Chris Griggs

08-11-2011, 7:51 AM

Has anyone here tried the Sigma 120 work for flattening the backs of really beat up blades?

Also, Stu/Tools from Japan did a writeup on his blog about it here: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=564

David Weaver

08-11-2011, 8:30 AM

Heck, it's even worse than that where I work (I teach high school shop). The chisels go from the grinder to a felt wheel with green compound, and then on the rack. Lathe chisels and gouges are straight from the grinder.

If time was money for me (and for fine work), I would probably still use the stones for chisels - it takes very little time and you can preserve the geometry of the edge. But everything else would probably hit the belt grinder and then the leather wheel with compound.

Even my cambered japanese irons only ever see a stone on the back.

We would all work a little differently if we were instructed by people who worked wood for a living instead of being instructed by people who instruct for a living.

Archie England

08-11-2011, 8:36 AM

Has anyone here tried the Sigma 120 work for flattening the backs of really beat up blades?

Yes, I've started using my Sigma 120 for blade backs in tough shape, and it works fantastically fast. The slow cutting speed of my oil stones, along with the pitiful ability of my Norton 220, forced me to look elsewhere for a sharpening medium on old tool steel that didn't take all day. That's my love hate relationship with my Tormek: it'll never draw the temper of a blade! But it can take way too long to shape the bevel on hard steels. The Sigma 120 just rips through steel about like a Nicholson 50 rasp cuts through hard wood. No kidding. It's quick! The scratches can be rather deep. The metal is literally "chewed" through. And, did I say quickly. Unlike the Norton 220 which is more like sandy jello, the Sigma 120 doesn't compress under pressure nor does it appear to dish. So, it seems to be a brick. Stu warned me to keep it flushed and wet; but, it would be happier under a running water hose. I've never seen water soak through a stone so quickly. At the time, with continuous flushing, I see the swarf lifted out of the pours and rinsed away. Every form of feed back from this stone is "visible." You see the spent stone grains, the rinsed off swarf, and the consistent, newly cut backs. If I didn't know that the Sigma 1000 was such a good cutter, I'd be fearful that those cuts would never lap out. They do, however! I'm convinced that an intermediate stone before the 1000 would greatly prep the back for an easier, shorter clean up on the 1000. YMMV

David Weaver

08-11-2011, 8:38 AM

Has anyone here tried the Sigma 120 work for flattening the backs of really beat up blades?

You want 80 or 100 grit loose diamonds and a $20 metal plate for that work, and not a stone. Trust me, I've been there and done that with laminated irons most people would throw away.

You need to make something that will hold the iron, too, because no matter what you use, you'll have no fingerprints if you try to work far gone irons with your bare fingers hanging over the edge of the iron (and they will, regardless of whether or not you think they're on or off the iron).

Save the stones for bevel work, you're asking for trouble to actually get a back *flat* with them, and have them cut continuously. With loose diamonds, you can use unlimited pressure, get a flat iron, and you'll not have to stop to flatten or clean anything.

Electroplate diamond hones and loose diamonds on a substrate (cast iron, mild steel) soft enough for them to dig in and "set up" are two totally different animals.

The iron holder that you'd make need not take more than 10 minutes, and it needn't cost anything if you save bolts. $1 or $2 if you don't and you have to buy bolts, nuts and washers.

Archie England

08-11-2011, 8:58 AM

Even with my limited experience, I really believe David is right about this, especially for large areas. Perhaps a 1" or less area would be less of a problem with the proper progression of stones; but, I'm already experiencing the anxiety of making sure the Ark stones or water stones are "dead" flat to proceed with flattening backs. Second, I fear that the Sigma 120 could actually, over time, significantly thin a tool. Now, if flattening backs only occurs once--and I got here because I never flattened backs--then I can probably live with a miniscule layer removed.

But let's just say that the Sigma 120 is a true "muscle" stone to throw at any problem though the tool suited for the job is really the best tool to use.

Chris Griggs

08-11-2011, 9:01 AM

You want 80 or 100 grit loose diamonds and a $20 metal plate for that work, and not a stone. Trust me, I've been there and done that with laminated irons most people would throw away.

David, I've seen you mention this a number of times, and it intrigues me. Two questions.

1. Where do you get the loose diamonds? Ebay? I think I looked there once but didn't see anything - perhaps I searching wrong or just need to check back there more often. Also, what do loose diamonds run?

2. Does the subtrate you put them on matter? For example, would my granite floor tile work or do you need the softer steel of a kanaban?

EDIT: Just reread your post - looks like you already answered my second question:
a substrate (cast iron, mild steel) soft enough for them to dig in and "set up"

David Weaver

08-11-2011, 9:23 AM

Yes, the substrate matters a lot. Cast iron or mild steel are the only two that I've seen that are suitable.

The side bonus is that if you ever want to lap your mild steel or cast iron plate, you can easily lap it on any surface that you can put sandpaper on.

There is a seller on ebay who sells 100 carat packs of industrial diamond for $27 shipped. That would be enough diamonds for someone to use for 50 years. four years ago, I bought a 20 carat pack. I have probably used 5 carats of it in 4 years, it only needs to be applied sparingly, and I have rehabilitated so many irons and chisels that I don't feel like doing it any more (i.e, you'll run out of gas before you run out of diamonds) unless I need a specific iron for a specific project.

Things like moderately pitted stanley irons are a matter of a few minutes. A horribly pitted iron that you could never work by hand on a 400+ grit stone in 10 hours worth of work would be a half hour at the very most, even if you thin the laminated hard steel by half.

But you only do it once, and once the iron is off the diamonds, it should not ever see them again.

I personally would not go with less than 100 grit diamonds, but I wouldn't go a lot higher, either. See item 320647843231 on peebay (no relation, but I think this might be the guy I got my diamonds from several years ago, may also not be, but you can't beat the price).

Stuart Tierney

08-11-2011, 9:46 AM

Also, Stu/Tools from Japan did a writeup on his blog about it here: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=564

It's due for updating, as is the product listing...

And I need some loose diamonds for comparison. The #230 paste I have isn't coarse enough.

Stu.

David Weaver

08-11-2011, 9:50 AM

It's due for updating, as is the product listing...

And I need some loose diamonds for comparison. The #230 paste I have isn't coarse enough.

Stu.

Let's see what we can do about that! Given that my kanaban came from your end of the world, i'm assuming you can find one there. You might have to flatten it (the one I got from TFWW benefited from some experience on the lap after I affixed it to wood).

I can hook you up with the diamonds (just ordered you a baggie of them). I'll shoot you an email once I get them if I can't dig up your address. Prepare your triceps!

Stuart Tierney

08-11-2011, 10:06 AM

Let's see what we can do about that! Given that my kanaban came from your end of the world, i'm assuming you can find one there. You might have to flatten it (the one I got from TFWW benefited from some experience on the lap after I affixed it to wood).

I can hook you up with the diamonds (just ordered you a baggie of them). I'll shoot you an email once I get them if I can't dig up your address. Prepare your triceps!

I just had a play with a doctored Sig #120.

And woke up the kids...

Kanaban isn't a problem. I'd list them for sale, but it's difficult to ask more for shipping something than the product will actually cost. :(

Got a stone in that boat right now, and I'm looking into cutting them in half to cut down the shipping cost. It's going to be painful, but worth it.

I just never thought I could get so excited about a King stone. Of course, these aren't your average King stones. They don't need soaking, they steadfastly refuse to dish and they're coarse. Good enough to permanently retire a Chosera over...

Stu.

David Weaver

08-11-2011, 10:14 AM

>>And woke up the kids...<<

Sound like you're rolling gravel with a shovel in the house?

What about the toishi? I shouldn't even ask, probably. Just got my second "old" stone yesterday. None of my newer mined stones can come close to touching either of the old stones. I wish I wouldn't have ever bought the new ones, I could get two more old stones for the money I spent on 7 or 8 new ones and still be far ahead.

Chris Griggs

08-11-2011, 10:16 AM

I just had a play with a doctored Sig #120.

Got a stone in that boat right now, and I'm looking into cutting them in half to cut down the shipping cost. It's going to be painful, but worth it.

I just never thought I could get so excited about a King stone. Of course, these aren't your average King stones. They don't need soaking, they steadfastly refuse to dish and they're coarse. Good enough to permanently retire a Chosera over...

Stu.

I you ever mange to get that new king cut in half let me know... It's 300 grit right? If it's really that dish resistant and aggressive I'd love a half of one of those at some point down the road.

Mike Henderson

08-11-2011, 11:33 AM

You need to make something that will hold the iron, too, because no matter what you use, you'll have no fingerprints if you try to work far gone irons with your bare fingers hanging over the edge of the iron (and they will, regardless of whether or not you think they're on or off the iron).
I had to really laugh when I read this. I've done more than take my fingerprints off. I've had raw wounds after flattening the back of a plane iron.:)

Mike

David Weaver

08-11-2011, 11:49 AM

Everyone does that at least once, I think. The shapton 1k and an 800 grit diamond hone are where I learned that lesson. Cool water keeps you from feeling that the skin has come off, then you move to a white finishing stone and there's blood all over the place, but you can't see much on your fingers because there's no cuts, just a uniform abrasion that's slowly bleeding.

I hate to flatten anything with my fingers any longer, unless it's narrow. With an iron holder, it's just not necessary to go through the arthritis inducing finger pain of flattening something on a stone. I run my irons right off the diamonds (if they have to go there) straight up to the shapton 1k, 5k and 15k without ever removing them from the holder. There might be a tiny bit of grit contamination that you can't get off the holder (not diamonds, though, easy enough to get them off), but it's only enough to lead to some minor cobwebbing on a fully polished surface - it presents no practical drawback, especially not one that would have someone spending scads of time polishing and polishing the back of an iron until there were no flaws.

I spent a lot of hours early on with sore fingers, gnashing them back and forth across medium stones to flatten things. What a waste of time!

Chris Griggs

08-11-2011, 12:26 PM

David, I think you've posted pics of it before, but you can you repost some pics of your blade holder?

David Weaver

08-11-2011, 12:54 PM

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?160656-Free-(to-make)-Iron-Holder-I-know-I-ve-posted-this-before..

Make it as cheap and nasty as you can. No reason to spend time on something that's going to get blackened, anyway. Besides, you'll probably find you like to grip it somewhere other than the handles ( I like to grip this one inside the handles ), so there's no reason to make them pretty.

I may have intended to make a nicer one than this (as in I was just experimenting with junk I had laying around) when I put this together out of frustration with an iron that was far too pitted to ever save by hand, but I have no intention to make one nicer now. Be a waste of time and money to do that.

Chris Griggs

08-11-2011, 1:45 PM

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?160656-Free-(to-make)-Iron-Holder-I-know-I-ve-posted-this-before (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?160656-Free-%28to-make%29-Iron-Holder-I-know-I-ve-posted-this-before)..

Make it as cheap and nasty as you can. No reason to spend time on something that's going to get blackened, anyway. Besides, you'll probably find you like to grip it somewhere other than the handles ( I like to grip this one inside the handles ), so there's no reason to make them pretty.

I may have intended to make a nicer one than this (as in I was just experimenting with junk I had laying around) when I put this together out of frustration with an iron that was far too pitted to ever save by hand, but I have no intention to make one nicer now. Be a waste of time and money to do that.

Thanks David - I thought I'd see you post that before. So what do you do for mucked up chisels???

Aaron Rappaport

08-11-2011, 11:32 PM

I bought a 20 carat pack. I have probably used 5 carats of it in 4 years, it only needs to be applied sparingly, and I have rehabilitated so many irons and chisels that I don't feel like doing it any more (i.e, you'll run out of gas before you run out of diamonds) unless I need a specific iron for a specific project.

David, The problem I ran into using 100 grit loose diamonds on a kannaban to flatten backs was that eventually they either dulled or "drowned in the swarf". Then, when I rinsed off the swarf, they rinsed off too. In your own work, do you just live with that and make sure not to use too many diamonds per swarf cycle, or do you do something special so that the diamonds embed in the kannaban strongly enough to survive a rinsing? I did try pushing down very hard at first to embed the diamonds, so I don't think lack of initial pressure was my problem.

David Weaver

08-12-2011, 8:16 AM

The diamonds will embed after a minute or two of work. It's loud when you're rolling them around on the surface of the kanaban, and it gives you the sensation that they're doing a lot.

But I think when they're doing the most cutting is right after you stop hearing that sound, it seems (feels) like you're only rubbing metal against metal, but if you trust it for a minute or two, you'll see that the diamonds are actually cutting fast at that point. You can only just feel them cutting, because they're not rolling around, and you feel what feels like steel on steel a lot more.

I usually try to keep the diamonds on the top of the plate until most of them have embedded, but I don't do anything special to get them to. I would have to say off the top of my head, for every pinch of diamonds, I probably have them rolling around making a lot of noise for about 2 minutes ( they are still cutting fast then, too ) and then 10-15 minutes of cutting where they aren't as noisy before I add another tiny pinch. only use a very small amount when you add - like a tiny powder dusting, because as you found out, if you put a lot on the kanaban, most of them will just end up going off in the swarf. Plus, they're doing nothing good rolling around between an iron and the kanaban - when they're rolling, they're going to be scuffing up and wearing hollow the surface of the kanaban.

I guess it's sort of like stropping a razor, there are some counterintuitive things going on, but with a little experience, you'll figure out what works.

(as an aside, there's no reason to have tons of liquid - I don't know what you use, but I use wd40, just a few drops on the kanaban is enough to get going. Add a little more as it starts to dry out or if the swarf gets thick, but not tons of it like a waterstone).

george wilson

08-12-2011, 10:07 AM

The way diamonds were used by toolmakers years ago was to imbed them in a copper lap. With a hardened steel hammer,diamonds could be lightly hammered against a piece of copper. The diamonds would stick into the soft copper,and not into the hardened hammer. To make round grinding laps to use in jig boring machines,or jig grinders,they would put the diamond dust on a hardened steel plate,and hole the copper lap just over the surface,striking the lap lightly down into the diamonds with a hardened steel hammer. They'd rotate the lap as they went along. Then,the round lap could stand high r.p.m.'s while lapping out precision holes.

It would be difficult to find a thick piece of copper,but some heavy gauge copper sheet could possibly be glued down against a flat metal block. Possibly a block of annealed brass would be able to take embedded diamonds hammered onto it by light taps of a hardened steel hammer. I have found the Task Force Chinese made ball pein hammers Lowe's sells to be pretty hard,harder by far than the old Stanleys.

If you embedded your diamonds thus,they would cut better and not get lost,or wear out your lapping plate. Just an idea.

David Keller NC

08-12-2011, 11:33 AM

Regarding what George said, you can get solid copper sheets, alloy 110 (the less pure, non-electrical alloy, but still 99% copper) from McMaster-Carr all day long. As an example, a 12" long, 3" wide, 1/4" thick plate is $44.

David Weaver

08-12-2011, 11:50 AM

Any thoughts on how the copper will hold up under low speed high pressure (which any hand work is going to turn into as soon as somoene gets into a rush), vs. i'm assuming what on a lapping machine would be a bit higher speed and lower pressure? I'd wonder if the diamonds will go too far into it, but it's pretty easy to answer the question - someone just has to try it.

george wilson

08-12-2011, 12:14 PM

Are you asking if the copper will stay flat,David? That has to do with using proper technique as much as anything else. If you don't bear down real hard it would keep the work riding on the diamonds,rather than driving them all the way into the copper,and then you are rubbing the copper. I think use of copper correctly should make your diamonds stay put,and not get washed away. Anyway,it'd the medium the old time users of diamond dust employed,or at least one of their techniques as described in the old Moore jig boring manual from the 40's that I have studied.

David Keller,the 1/4" plate sounds like a good copper plate to try out.

David Wadstrup

09-09-2011, 6:41 PM

I'm curious to hear more about the steel kanaban vs. copper plate for flattening. I have a very hard #120 grit stone on the way to me that I'll eventually need to flatten. It comes with a small bottle of abrasive grit that I'll use with either a steel or glass plate. I'm intrigued by the copper plate idea. Does anyone have any experience with it. I'll likely not want to bother with flattening a kanaban, preferring to replace it or use inexpensive replaceable glass. If the copper holds its flatness longer, I'd rather go this route. Less waste, and probably easier to flatten???

Stuart Tierney

09-09-2011, 7:07 PM

David,

Different procedure, and I want to head you off before you go looking for a piece of copper.

Flattening a stone doesn't require 'bedding' the abrasive, so anything hard like glass or steel will do.

That's all. :)

Stu.

Bryan Ericson

09-09-2011, 7:16 PM

Phil,the white and black Spydercos are only $48.00+change. I wouldn't waste my money on the ultra fine. The white one is perfectly fine enough since it such a hard stone. If you don't mind flattening it a bit with a diamond bench stone,save the extra money. From the pictures recently posted of the wavy tops of the "ground" stones,you've got to flatten them anyway.

The Spyderco stones seem to go up and down in price. I was able to get both the ultra-fine and medium Spyderco stones earlier this year for about $35 each from Amazon (the ultra-fine is the 2x8 size, not the 3x8 referenced earlier in the thread). I'd be willing to bet that they'll go down again around Thanksgiving. You can track Amazon price changes at http://camelcamelcamel.com (in fact, I see that the medium stone is going right now for just under $34).

I want to thank you for your recommendation, George. I've been using your sharpening system that you've been describing in many of the sharpening threads, and I've really come to like it. It's quick and clean and I didn't need to take out a second mortgage to pay for it. One difference is that I use Bon Ami scrubbing power to clean the stones rather than the diamond stone, although I did flatten the ultra-fine stone with the diamond stone before I used it (the medium stone came flat and didn't need any work before use). I'm becoming better with the system, and I can regularly get a mirror finish in a relatively short time.