Shaper Owners ???

[Gary Curtis]

Contemplating buy a shaper. A few questions?

a) how many cutters do you own - which ones?

b) must the work be run through only on an 'upcut'?

c) is a tilting spindle (as in Felder) worthwhile?

[J.R. Rutter]

a) a lot - Leitz, Leiser, Freeborn, Grizzly, various custom. Some sort of universal head that can take steel profile knives would be useful for non-industrial. You can hone knives easily.

b) no

c) not for me

[jim mills]

OK, how about a sliding table?

[Rod Sheridan]

Contemplating buy a shaper. A few questions?

a) Freud, OMAS, Felder. I have a lock mitre cutter, a rebate cutter, a few slotting cutters and an insert head that takes the 40mm HSS knives (lots of knives for that head)

b) No

c) For me yes

Also I have a sliding table, and a tenon hood and a power feeder. (I have a Hammer B3 Winner)

I use the shaper a fair bit, don't own a router...............Regards, Rod.

[Ryan Hellmer]

(a) I would also consider Amana and infinity cutters as well. As with anything the more the merrier, also, strongly consider insert tooling.

(b) No, if you do consider climb cutting as it's more commonly referred to you absolutely must have a good power feeder, which by the way I would recommend anyways.

(c) I've never had a tilty so I can't answer that. My gut tells me, if you go for one, make sure it is HEAVY, like Felder or Martin.

[Chris Fournier]

I would not buy a shaper UNLESS it had a tilting spindle. A univeral profile cutter head with steel inserts is a good head to own. Tooling adds up to $$$ quickly; I like the carbide insert variety. A good shaper will tilt and allow counter and clockwise rotation. A power feeder is a must in my books especially if you want to want to feed stock with the cutter rotation. I like the SCM line of equipment - MiniMax.

[Peter Quinn]

A) Mucho, various, not nearly enough. I have Freeborn, Lietz, Amana, infinity, Freud, Garniga (favorite), Lueco, LRH, and others. I like corregated back insert heads for variety at an affordable price, the Amana profile pro is quite versatile. What you buy in terms of build quality and assortment really depends on the work you will be doing and your budget. For most cutters are just too expensive to buy some variety pack like router bit starter sets. I have added cutters as I found them on ebay or elsewhere cheaply or as I needed them. good rabbit head with spurs is one basic worth having in any shaper shop.

B) Huh? Never hear that term applied to shapers. I know up cuts and down cuts they relate to router spirals, and most good shaper cuttters do have a shear action as well. If you meant feed counter to rotation, then I'd say you can ONLY HAND FEED counter to rotation, but you can certainly climb cut (feed with cutters rotation) with a power feed. NEVER CLIMB CUT ON A SHAPER WITH A HAND FEED! NEVER.

C) Tilt worthwhile? If I had it I would use it, If I needed it I could easily make a tilting table jig to do most of what is done with a tilting arbor. Google SHAPER DECRISTOFORO, there is an excellent article by the Senior Mr. Decristoforo on google books archive in an old popular mechanics from the 50's that details how to make a good tilting table jig. But if the budget is there, it would be a fun option at least. But one can certainly live nicely without this IMO.

D) Sliding table? Yes, very much essential if you would like to be considered among shaper users of the 21st century. Otherwise you must also begin driving a car with stone wheels and hunting saber tooth tigers!:) Plus its a really nice way to do end grain work, it adds considerable range and safety to your set up. There is no better way to make tenons IME, though there are other ways. Copes are easier. Its just a really versatile way to work. You can certainly accomplish most cabinet work with cope and stick joinery on a non sliding shaper with a coping jig or miter gauge, but a slider makes this all a bit safer, and makes larger work much easier.

[Steve Griffin]

a) The cutters in the "frontseat" of the drawer include:

--2" straight (for dimensioning and final edging)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?135238-The-main-reason-to-have-a-shaper

--.25" rabbeting (for ply panel doors)
--.188 rabbeting (for times when ply panels are too far under .25" thickness)
--45degrees (the ultimate way to do mitered corner glueups)
--1/8" radius
--1/4" radius
--straight panel raiser

Most of the above I have 2 or 3 of.

In the backseat are cutters purchased specifically for jobs. Luckily "foo foo" door profiles have become less popular.

b)90% of the time climb cutting produces a better finish. 10% of the time it doesn't. (such as cross grain operations like panel raising and coping)

c)If you don't think you need tilt, you probably don't. I survive just fine without it.

d)Sliding table. You bet it's nice if you have the budget. I don't have it, and must use a miter gauge for cope/tongues. Luckily most often do shaker style doors, and prefer to cut tenons on the T-saw.

e)two things are more important than sliding table or tilt-- a good 4 wheel power feeder and an adjustable outboard fence for climb cutting

-Steve

[jim mills]

How about spindle speed? I was looking at some of the smaller dia cutters ie. 3" and they are rated at max rpm 13,000. Most shapers only spin at 10,000 rpm. Some only 8,000 rpm. How fast do "typical" cutters spin? Also, I assume shaper cutters last longer than router bits. Is this correct?

[Gary Curtis]

I believe that some of the Euro machines (SMC, Felder) offer a router bit spindle that operates in the 15,000 rpm range. And since I might want the tilting spindle option, that might necessitate buying a European machine.

At this point I am asking questions and taking notes.

[Rod Sheridan]

204167
How about spindle speed? I was looking at some of the smaller dia cutters ie. 3" and they are rated at max rpm 13,000. Most shapers only spin at 10,000 rpm. Some only 8,000 rpm. How fast do "typical" cutters spin? Also, I assume shaper cutters last longer than router bits. Is this correct?

Hi Jim, as you would expect there are a few items that determine what spindle RPM to use

- cutter diameter

- cutter material

- required chip load

- work material characteristics

My shaper has 3,000/6,000/8,000/10,000 RPM speeds available. I use the 8,000/6,000 RPM speeds the most, I've never used the 10,000 RPM speed.

For hand feeding I'd reccomend a cutter speed range of 40m/s (8,000FPM) as a minimum to reduce kickbacks, up to a maximum of 75 m/s (15,000FPM) which is the maximum safe tooling speeds.

Note that the manufacturer will have a maximum tool speed listed, it supercedes the above guidelines.

So to answer your question, you need to first select your tooling, calculate your required spindle speeds to meet the above the guidelines, then you know what speed range you'll need on your cutters.

PM me and I'll send you a chart I made for my shaper for cutter speeds and feed speeds.

As to your second question, carbide cutters last longer than HSS cutters, and Tantalung cutters last longer than carbide.

I mostly use HSS knives in an insert head because as a hobby user they will cut somewhere from hundreds to a thousand linear feet of solid wood without issue.

I don't own a router, however their bits don't last that long

Regards, Rod.

P.S. The other issue is feed speed. For hand feeding you want less knives, so a 2 knife is ideal, 3 knife, 4 knife etc diminish in ease of use for hand fed operations.

Each knife has to remove a chip of a certain thickness range for proper life and performance. People aren't very good at pushing material fast enough, and at a steady enough rate, so a stock feeder not only increases your safety, it increases cutter life and work surface finish.

I suggest that you go online and purchse The Spindle Molder Handbook,.

[Peter Quinn]

I believe that some of the Euro machines (SMC, Felder) offer a router bit spindle that operates in the 15,000 rpm range. And since I might want the tilting spindle option, that might necessitate buying a European machine. At this point I am asking questions and taking notes.IIR Felder is the only maker offering a High speed router spindle, but that is a spendy option. Nice if you have the budget, but hardly a swing vote IMO .As to cutter speed of 13k, this is likely the fastest safe speed at which they can spin per engineering specs of manufacturer but not necessarily the best speed or only speed at which they can be run. Both my shapers max at 10k rpm's and that will spin my smallest 3/4" bore cutter fine.

[Jeff Duncan]

I don't have a lot of cutters, but I have far more than I'd want to list here, and I'm always buying more. I have a couple cutters on the way now, and I'm also getting ready to have several profiles ground for another job.

I have rarely found any need to climb cut on the shaper. I don't think it's a necessity by any stretch of the imagination and think the improvement over regular feeding seems a bit exaggerated in my experience.

I think a tilting spindle is handy, however I wouldn't buy an inexpensive one. The most important things I look for in a shaper are robustness and accuracy. An inexpensive or lightweight machine, anything smaller than say a 1-1/4" spindle and about 1000 lbs of cast or more, is not a good candidate for a tilt mechanism....at least in my opinion....YMMV. I use my shapers a lot and I use the tilting function probably once or twice a year...again YMMV, all comes down to what your going to do with the machine.

I'll throw out a general recommendation admittedly based on a whole lot of assumptions. For a person who's contemplating what sounds like their first (?) shaper I would go with something along the lines of a Powermatic 26/27. It's a smaller machine, moderately priced, with a good amount of power to do your everyday type of shaping operations. Nothing fancy, no tilt or sliding table, you probably don't need them to start anyway. Just a fairly well made introductory machine.
If you have an abundance of funds available at your disposable I think the bigger Felders and such would be a nice improvement though. There's just too much available to give a worthwhile recommendation without a bit more info, so I hope this helps a little?

good luck,
JeffD

[Chip Lindley]

D) Sliding table? Yes, very much essential if you would like to be considered among shaper users of the 21st century. Otherwise you must also begin driving a car with stone wheels and hunting saber tooth tigers!:) Plus its a really nice way to do end grain work, it adds considerable range and safety to your set up. There is no better way to make tenons IME, though there are other ways. Copes are easier. Its just a really versatile way to work. You can certainly accomplish most cabinet work with cope and stick joinery on a non sliding shaper with a coping jig or miter gauge, but a slider makes this all a bit safer, and makes larger work much easier.

Peter, I suppose I will keep enjoying using my archaic equipment from the previous century. IMO, the utility of a sliding shaper table is often overrated. Anything is preferable to using a table saw miter jig for shaper operations. Too light-weight and unsafe! Sliding tables would make repetitive coping operations on cabinet doors less stressful, but my Weaver coping jig sliding in the table slot works just fine for short runs.

While you are at it, go ahead and lambast me for not having a computerized shaper that can set multiple cutters to the exact height from keypad memory! Whatta toy that would be in a home shop! But, all of my six shapers cost a pitance compared to one of those.

Purchasing a sliding table shaper would not be a high priority for me unless a commercial situation would utilize the slider in that capacity constantly. Other than the Weaver coping jig, the pneumatic Cope Master jig which rides on a cushion of air would be about as good as it gets to augment a general-purpose shaper.

Let me just say, if I run across a dirt-cheap bargain on a sliding shaper, OR the Cope Master, I would not hesitate!

~~Chip~~

[Tom Hargrove]

I don't have a shaper at the present time, but have spent a lot of time working with them. I wish I had the room for one. I don't think a tilting spindle is necessary, but it could be a nice feature. Same for a sliding table. I think a feeder is absolutely necessary if you are going to climb cut.

With regard to the speed questions, I think you need to consider the following. The speed of the cutter at the tip is an important factor for both the quality of the cut, and safety. The tip speed of a 4" shaper cutter spinning at 8,000 rpm is a lot faster than the tip speed of a 1/2" router bit spinning at twice the speed. We never ran a shaper faster than 8,000 rpm - it simply wasn't needed since the tip speed was much faster than a router can achieve with much smaller bits. The noise made by big cutter running at 12,000 rpm would be kind of scary - even before it began cutting the wood.

If you are going to use an insert head, be sure it uses corrugated edge knives. Much easier to set up and a lot safer.

[Gary Curtis]

Ooops. I should have mentioned that the 15,000 rpm spindle is intended to mount 1/2" router bits on the shaper. And it is offered by Felder. The only reason I could imagine a guy spending additional money for such a spindle would be to take advantage of the tilt option and sliding table. Both offered on the Felders.

One reason a shaper attracts is that the wide diameter of cutters means that the cutting edge meets the wood at an oblique angle. This gives you a shearing cut. Whereas in router bits, the cutter chops downward. A chopping action. It is easy to see why shapers make such a clean cut on wood.

When I was building my house, a local timber harvester was offering red oak planks. I needed 800 linear feet of flooring and asked the dealer if I could buy router blades to mill the planks into flooring. He said my arms would fall off making the profiles on the bottom and edges. He showed me the equipment used in his shop do do the job. He advised getting a shaper and power feeder. I was new to woodworking and had not yet used my recently purchased router table. Boy, did I need an education.

[Chris Fournier]

SCM also make a high speed spindle which handles router bits. If you order it fom the factory it is not a terribly expensive option. My Minimax Elite410 S spins up to 12000 rpm.

[J.R. Rutter]

Other than the Weaver coping jig, the pneumatic Cope Master jig which rides on a cushion of air would be about as good as it gets to augment a general-purpose shaper.

I got a used Panelcrafter for doing arches. It is a nice addition. The Cope Master should be equally good.

I ended up with the Ritter TESA mounted to a linear guide for doing copes. Pneumatic clamps and the ability to do multiple parts in one stroke = good stuff.

[David Kumm]

Buy the best quality shaper you can afford. Look realistically at what you can spend and then decide if that is enough to allow for the sliding table, tilting spindle upcharges. I prefer the sliding table as I do large doors and there is no substitute for the hold down capability a slider gives. If you intend to do large profile cope and stick, get the slider. A tilting spindle is great but you then need to decide if you want to tilt back or forward. Can you reverse the fence so you can do both, and can you reverse the spindle direction as well. Again, the tilt mechanism requires a strong quality shaper to maintain its position. The router spindle is an OK option but not a deal breaker. Most bits with a diameter less than 1.5" and two flutes work much better with a router table. My Knapp runs a router bit at up to 23000 rpm and is the only shaper I know of that beats a router table for all bits. My Felder runs at 15000 rpm and is good for most but bits like corebox really need more speed. Good dust collection and a power feeder should be mandatory as well. I prefer the larger diameter cutters as well because it is easier to create beefy fences due to the distance from the spindle to the cut. The quality and ease of adjustment of the fence is also a really big deal. A poor fence will annoy the crap out of you. Even the Felder 240 fence has drawbacks in my opinion so look hard at how you will use the shaper, the fence, and the table before you worry about tilt and router capability. Dave

[jim mills]

Any opinions on the LAguna 1002T shaper. Probably a "light duty" shaper to some, but 5hp and all the bells and whistles.

[David Kumm]

Jim, the Laguna 1002 looks anything but light duty. At $9000+ it should be the real deal. Find out where it is sourced and if possible look at one to compare it to either the SCMI or Felder 700 or 900 series. I think Laguna presents good stuff but would not consider them underpriced. I just bought a SCMI T130 used- but never used for $3750 and there is one on Woodweb right now in the $7500 range with a lot of bells and whistles. I have shapers with 10,9 and 6.2 hp motors and think 5 is a little undersized for that type of machine. Ask about the steel frame construction and how the quill assembly is anchored to the machine. There should be no runout at all for that price. Also look at how the crosscut fence is locked at 90 degrees. You want to be able to assemble the fence at 90 with no fiddling or measuring. Dave

[jim mills]

Thanks for the info David. Cant seem to get much info besides stock and shipping date. The Laguna machine is made by Stommana in Bulgaria. Finding informative, reputable machinery dealers is getting harder and harder. I've seem several T130's for sale but a huge price range; including the one on woodweb. All the electronics on that machine scare me due to potential repair costs.


Jim, the Laguna 1002 looks anything but light duty. At $9000+ it should be the real deal. Find out where it is sourced and if possible look at one to compare it to either the SCMI or Felder 700 or 900 series. I think Laguna presents good stuff but would not consider them underpriced. I just bought a SCMI T130 used- but never used for $3750 and there is one on Woodweb right now in the $7500 range with a lot of bells and whistles. I have shapers with 10,9 and 6.2 hp motors and think 5 is a little undersized for that type of machine. Ask about the steel frame construction and how the quill assembly is anchored to the machine. There should be no runout at all for that price. Also look at how the crosscut fence is locked at 90 degrees. You want to be able to assemble the fence at 90 with no fiddling or measuring. Dave

[David Kumm]

Jim, I hear you. It is really difficult to get good factual info on machines. woodshop News just did an article on the entry level Martin line and never mentioned that the machines are sourced from Griggio. Stiles has a line of Taiwan machines made by Cantek that look good in pictures but I haven't seen any in real life. Talking to used machinery guys is helpful as they generally have knowledge about how well certain machines hold up and their weaknesses. I also talk to the FOG and MM groups. Mac Campshure is pretty knowledgeable as well. He makes Airtight Clamps and has a website, Mac'sblogboard or something like that. Google him and ask his opinion. I have two stand alone shapers and a Knapp saw shaper. Depending on your space and whether you are ahome shop or business guy, I really like the saw shaper combo with a stand alone second shaper. Means you don't need the slider on the stand alone and allows for cope and stick work without changing cutters and more importantly, not messing with the fence and feeder once it is set up. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm curious how many guys with the sliding tables use them for cabinet doors? I make rails as short as 2-1/2", and the longest usually around 18" or so. So for me sleds are the way to go. I'm just wondering how guys with sliders are using them?

JeffD

[David Kumm]

Jeff, I have a tenoning table that allows for clamping close to the cutter for short pieces but probably no easier or quicker than your sled. Aigner makes a coping accessory that is pretty slick for small pieces. The slding table excells at large profile, thick heavy pieces but the sled is as good for smaller stuff. Dave

[Stephen Cherry]

If you want tilt and slide, I would look at one of the saw/shaper combos.

[jim mills]

Not sure I wouldn't get tired of the "back and forth" changes.


If you want tilt and slide, I would look at one of the saw/shaper combos.

[jim mills]

Good question Jeff; and for panel raising, I suppose a feeder is the way to go.



I'm curious how many guys with the sliding tables use them for cabinet doors? I make rails as short as 2-1/2", and the longest usually around 18" or so. So for me sleds are the way to go. I'm just wondering how guys with sliders are using them?

JeffD

[Stephen Cherry]

Not sure I wouldn't get tired of the "back and forth" changes.

Very true, if you cycle between the two very often, it could be a pain in the neck. And a good shaper fence is not light.

[Jeff Duncan]

I haven't seen the Aigner sled.....but I imagine it's pretty well made. I'd love to get one of their shaper fences, but they cost more than I paid for my shapers:eek:

JeffD

[jim mills]

Speaking of fences, are most stiff enough to resist flexing from power feeder toe in, or is there something to look for in the fence design?

[J.R. Rutter]

Speaking of fences, are most stiff enough to resist flexing from power feeder toe in, or is there something to look for in the fence design?

I have not had an issue with any of the shapers that I've had over the years. The toe in should be pretty minimal for best results - like 1/4" for a 3 wheeler.

[jim mills]

Any opinions of Ritter shapers? The R-11 seems like a nice machine & American made!

[Jeff Duncan]

The fences I've used have all been beefy enough to withstand pressure from a properly set up feeder. However I rarely use them in this manner. Most of the time I'm using a feeder it's against an outboard fence as I find it to be far more practical. If I'm feeding work against the shaper fence it's usually something I'm hand feeding.


As far as fences go I'd have to say out of the light duty machines like Delta, Powermatic and such, the Delta's aluminum style fence is the best I've used. The fence that came stock with my Powermatic 27 left a lot to be desired! Once you get into the bigger industrial machines I think generally you'll find better fences. Even on my Asian import industrial shaper the fence is pretty good.

As far as Ritter goes I have no direct experience with them. The few things I've heard have not been overly positive. I would look at one in person and make your own conclusions though.

good luck,
JeffD

[David Kumm]

I have not used a ritter but my understanding has been that they excel in a shop where they are set up to run a few setups consistently rather than being used for constant changeovers as in a one man shop. If you want
an idea of the types of accessories available- at a price- download the Aigner catalog. They make the shaper seem cheap but are as well made as you will ever see. Dave