Any air conditioning experts out there? What is the best central air conditioner?

[dennis thompson]

When I bought my house about a year ago the home inspector said the central air conditioner was reaching the end of its life. It has started to make some strange noises so I'd like to replace it before it stops working. I know nothing about central air conditioners. Does anyone have any recommendations as to what I should look for? brands? efficiency? warranties? etc?
Thanks
Dennis

[Sean Troy]

Carrier has always been known as one of the better brands. Seer value is very important. It represents the effeciency rating. The higher the number, the better.

[Andrew Kertesz]

Trane has been a good brand as well. I would check and see if there are any tax benefits left available for buying "Energy Star" compliant. They are still advertising a tax cut on windows in the Toledo area. Just a thought...

[Matt Meiser]

We put in a Trane heat pump which works with our natural gas furnace last fall and were very happy with our heating bills over the winter. And ours isn't even what would be considered a high-SEER unit due to restrictions on what we could install with our existing furnace and still meet the requirements for the tax credit.

Andrew, seeing who is advertising those credits, I think I'd check on my own first before trusting them! Then again, I would (did) buy windows elsewhere too! :D

[Lee Schierer]

We have a Climate Master geothermal unit and it has been excellent. It is also sold under the Bryant and Carrier names. If you purchase the right unit, there is a 30% tax credit that goes until the end of the year I believe.

[Phil Thien]

I'd read-up on the refrigerant phase-outs. The old school refrigerants are being phased out. You can still get units that use them (and they are less expensive than units using newer refrigerants). But I have no idea how long they will be serviceable.

Supposedly even after it is illegal to manufacture the older refrigerants, the companies that service the old units will be allowed to reclaim and resell refrigerants from units they are working on. But I wonder how long that supply will continue.

[Paul McGaha]

We bought our house new about 15 years ago.

We replaced the indoor and outdoor units that came with the house 3 years ago with units from Carrier.

No problems with them at all so far. Hoping they'll last another 10 years or so.

PHM

[Mike Henderson]

I'd read-up on the refrigerant phase-outs. The old school refrigerants are being phased out. You can still get units that use them (and they are less expensive than units using newer refrigerants). But I have no idea how long they will be serviceable.

Supposedly even after it is illegal to manufacture the older refrigerants, the companies that service the old units will be allowed to reclaim and resell refrigerants from units they are working on. But I wonder how long that supply will continue.
R-12 refrigerant, which was used in automobile AC units, was phased out quite a few years ago - no new production since 1995. You can still get your unit serviced because the refrigerant is reclaimed from old car AC units. Plus, the value has gone up enough that people who are sitting on old stock have a reason to sell it. I had a bottle of R-12 that I used to service my cars and finally sold it after I sold my last car that used R-12. It weighted about 35 pounds, including the bottle, and I got a good price per pound for it.

Mike

[Michael Weber]

Really, all the brands are pretty much the same quality wise. What matters most is the quality of installation. Pick the efficiency rating you want then hope the contractor does a professional job of installation.

[Joe Leigh]

The best Residential units by far are Carrier and Lennox. The higher end models from these manufacturers are whisper quiet and have very high SEER ratings and warranties that exceed other brands. Trane makes its money in the commercial division and its residential equipment falls a notch or two below the big two along with brands like York and Rheem.

[Paul McGaha]

Dennis,

With replacing our units a couple of things that worked for us was to try to replace the units before they fail and when the weather is pleasant and the HVAC companies arent too busy. You'll get a better price from the contractors when they need the work to keep their guys busy.

I would also suggest that you check the references from the contractor you want to use. The contractor we used gave us 3 refereneces and they all said the company was super good and our experience with them was the same. Good looking install, Came when scheduled, Cleaned up after themselves well, No surprises with the cost. No issues at all. We'd recommend them highly.

Good luck with your work.

PHM

[Don Buck]

One additional thought - I needed to add central air to our older home here in VA 5 years ago. I spent a little more and had an air to air heat pump (Bryant) installed so we could get some economical heat in the cooler months in addition to the cooling in the summer. Your electrical cost will be the deciding factor but here in VA it is very economical to heat using the heat pump when the outside air is 26 degrees or warmer. I do not want to spin the electric meter with the electric stip back up for the cold weather, when it starts getting real cold (i.e. November - February) I switch over to the natural gas fired hot water baseboard. It is nice to have the option of using electric or natural gas for heat and the electric strip can serve as a back-up if the hot water boiler goes down.

[John Pratt]

This is kind of like asking what is the best tablesaw. I am not a HVAC expert, but my brother has been one for about 40 years. His advice to me was first find out what repair and service options are available in your area. Some units are fairly specific to certain areas. In my current area, nobody has Lennox because there are limited repair facilities. In my hometown of Marshalltown, Iowa is where Lennox is made so everyone there has one. Seer rating is another big factor. I would definitely check into the new rebates for geothermal units.

[Alan Trout]

I am a home inspector and I see more problems with Carrier and Lennox branded units for some reason. We are pretty hard on AC's in South Texas and they really get put to the test. Probably some of the most dependable units I see are the Ruud/Rheem branded units. Trane's seem to be pretty good as well. Even the cheap Goodman units seem to handle our weather better than the Carrier and Lennox units but that is just my personal observations.

Alan

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I agree with Michael Weber's post above about installation being more important. I have found that most manufacturers use common parts anyway. For example, the 'heart' of an A/C unit is the compressor and this component is commonly manufactured by Copeland for many brands.

Beginning in January 2006, a SEER value of 13 is now the minimum offered. However, it is not uncommon to see the minimum as a SEER of 15 when the indoor unit (A-coil or air handler) is matched by the manufacturer. SEER values greater than 20 are now available. But whether it is economical to invest in a high SEER value depends on your usage and where you live (weather and electric utility cost per kWHr).

R-22 refrigerant has been phased out in new units. However, R-22 gas will continue to be in production for some time to support the industry. R-410, which is the replacement, has been around for almost 15 years and has proven to be reliable. Carrier calls R-410 "Puron".

It should also be noted that an existing R-22 unit cannot be modified to accept R-410 because they operate at different pressures (R-410 being significantly higher). Even the old refrigerent lines and A-coil must be changed out because the lubricating oil is different, and, removing the residual oil in these components is unrealistic.

Carrier seems to be the standard brand that folks seem to compare other brands to. For me, I'm not brand loyal. Again, good installation is more important to me. For instance, not oversizing the unit, using a matched A-coil, the outside unit breaths well, refrigerant lines are brazed with a nitrogen gas purge, electrical service is adequate, good duct arrangement, etc.

Just an opinion as I'm not an air conditioning expert.

-Jeff

[Bill Cunningham]

We installed a big Carrier 2 stage heatpump w/3 stage gas furnace a few years ago for heating.. It also provides Air condx (19.5 sear).. Our house is only 1 level 1200 sq ft. ,so it just idles along keeping this place nice and cool.. We have had several days over 100deg f. so far this year, and my hydro bill might be up 5-10 bucks a month. over a normal summer..

[Phil Thien]

Here is information on the R-22 phase-out:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/22phaseout.html

Looks like 2020 is the end of production of R-22.

The last air conditioner I replaced was about 30 years old (roof-top unit). I know reclaimed R-22 will be available after 2020, I'd be a little concerned that I'd have a problem that would require a charge in 15 years and end up having to pay through the nose for the stuff.

[Brian Elfert]

We have a Climate Master geothermal unit and it has been excellent. It is also sold under the Bryant and Carrier names. If you purchase the right unit, there is a 30% tax credit that goes until the end of the year I believe.

Geothermal is a whole different ballgame. It will be much more expensive than just replacing a central A/C unit, but it also saves a lot of money typically.

The 30% federal tax credit on geothermal actually doesn't expire until 2016. If I planned to be in my house long term I would certainly look into installing geothermal as my heating/cooling will be 15 years old in 2016.

[Brian Elfert]

I have an American Standard furnace and air conditioner. They will be 10 years old in a few months. No repairs on either unit yet, but the company who did the install did a very nice job. My only regret is not paying the little bit extra for a 2 stage furnace.

Refrigerant should not need to be added to a central air conditioner on a routine basis. The reason cars often need more refrigerant is because they use flexible hoses instead of soldered/brazed copper.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

With cars, I usually see the refrigerant leaking thru either the compressor or the filling ports. Car compressors use a mechanical shaft driven by a belt that relies on seals and gaskets to hold back refrigerant. Not so with home compressors. They use hermetically sealed electric motors. Flexible hoses and their threaded joints probably add to the car's leak issue too.

On home units, I usually see some leakage thru the filling ports unless a definitive hole is found in the coil. But, I have found that it is not uncommon to periodically add some refrigerant to an older home system. The stuff just seems to find a way out.

Jeff :)

[David Keller NC]

The key item to make your decision on whether to buy the R-22 units that are being sold at considerable discount in inventory clearance sales or go with a newer R-410a unit is this (from the EPA website):

"As noted above, chemical manufacturers will no longer be able to produce, and companies will no longer be able to import, R-22 for use in new A/C equipment after 2010, but they can continue production and import of R-22 until 2020 for use in servicing existing equipment. Given this schedule, which was established in 1993, the transition away from R-22 to the use of ozone-friendly refrigerants should be smooth. For the next 10 years or more, R-22 should continue to be available for all systems that require R-22 for servicing."

While true that R-22 will be available for probably the next decade or so, it's highly likely that the price will go up substantially because while it can still be produced and recovered for recycling, the fact that it will not be produced in large quantities because it cannot be included in new refrigeration units means that the economies of scale will no longer be there.

If you are installing a new system, you will likely be far better off purchasing an R-410a system from the standpoint of recovery/filling with refrigerant. However, as has been pointed out earlier, residential A/C systems (unlike auto A/C systems) are totally sealed - they do not have gaskets/fittings that will wear out and leak refrigerant. One significant unknown with these new systems, however, is how long their service life will be with the new R-410a. Saturated chloroflurocarbons (like R-12 & R-22) are almost totally inert. In fact, that's the basic environmental problem - they don't break down very well in the environment, and make their way to the stratosphere where UV radiation has sufficient energy to split the fluorine-carbon bonds. Unfortunately, the reactants produced from that process rapidly oxidize in the presence of ozone (O3), which depletes that molecule.

The newer refrigerants are more labile - they will break down readily in the lower atmosphere. This is largely because they are "unsaturated" in the sense that they have hydrogen attached to some or all of the carbon atoms in addition to the chlorine & fluorine atoms. These carbon-hydrogen bonds allow the molecule to be broken down fairly readily, but they also mean that the molecule is somewhat corrosive, and most of the newer refrigerants are also flammable.

Another aspect that adds complication to the refrigerant substitution protocol that was set up by international agreement was that all of these chemicals or mixture of chemicals have different pressure/boiling point profiles from their saturated chlorofluorocarbon bretheren. In the case of 410a, the operating pressure is subtantially higher. Whether this will result in reduced service life is uncertain, but it does mean that the components of the evaporator/condensor/compressor/expansion valve circuit are heavier and use more materials.

To the OP - Since you live in New Jersey which has fairly high electric rates, you may wish to consider a totally natural gas-fired heating/cooling system. Essentially, a natural gas generator provides the mechanical force necessary to compress the refrigerant and run what amounts to a heat pump. Natural gas prices took a severe tumble in the mid 2000's as hydaulic fracturing and directional drilling technologies matured and formerly inaccessible geologic formations that contain unbelievably huge natural gas reserves came into production. While the outcome of the debate on the environmental consequences of hydraulic fracturing is uncertain, it is highly unlikely that natural gas prices will recover to the relatively expensive selling price of the early 2000's. As coal-fired power plants are phased out, it's probable that electric rates will continue to rise, so a natural-gas fired appliance for a power-hungry application like home A/C may be a more practical alternative.

[Brian Elfert]

I'm still worried that natural gas prices will skyrocket as one coal power plant after another is converted to natural gas. The local power utility has converted several coal plants to natural gas under pressure from environmentalists. One power plant probably uses more natural gas in a day than my house would in a few centuries.

[Mike Henderson]

But, I have found that it is not uncommon to periodically add some refrigerant to an older home system. The stuff just seems to find a way out.

Jeff :)

That's been my experience, also. No matter what you do, it's not uncommon to find the system a bit low on refrigerant about every two seasons.

Very good discussion of the new refrigerants, David (Keller). Regarding R22, if it follows the same path as R12, the price will go up quite a bit, but eventually will decrease as the older units (which use R22) are taken out of service. But that will be a lot of years, probably 20 or more.

Here in California (relatively close to the coast), I have a real problem when thinking of upgrading my AC. We only use it about two or three months out of the year, and not every day or all day, at that. So even if I decrease my electricity use by half, it will take a long time to pay for the increased cost of a very high SEER unit.

Mike

[Joe Leigh]

A few words on new units/new refrigerants, and replacements; R-22 is sill abundantly available and will be for years to come. Manufacturers are now offering new R-22 condensing units once again. The difference is these units are now sold "dry", that is, charged with nitrogen at the factory. This a is a good work around compared to a new 410A unit which would require replacement or major modification of the evaporator section due to metering device and oil incompatibility. R410A units are problematic due to the extreme pressures they operate under requiring special gauges and tools to install/charge. This refrigerant is being replaced by R407C which operates at nearly identical pressure as R22 and requires no specialized equipment to work with.

[Mike Null]

I realize this thread is old but I'm doing some homework as it looks like it might be wise for me to invest in a new central unit. My existing unit is a Rheem about 20 years old. Three or four years ago I had to add refrigerant; last year I replaced a motor which was nearly $500 and now it needs a lot of refrigerant again. The repairman says several pounds which could cost cost $500 to $600. I anticipated this and was prepared to start shopping to replace the entire system.

Since the Rheem has performed quite well and reliably I have no qualms about buying another. My house is about 2500 square feet plus a basement which I heat and cool.

I would appreciate any new input as I expect to begin shopping immediately.

[Jerry Thompson]

We put a Traine in 25 years ago and only minor inexpesive problems. It should also be noted we live in Florida.

[David Weaver]

I'm still worried that natural gas prices will skyrocket as one coal power plant after another is converted to natural gas. The local power utility has converted several coal plants to natural gas under pressure from environmentalists. One power plant probably uses more natural gas in a day than my house would in a few centuries.

Right now there is more natural gas than drillers know what to do with, though. I wouldn't worry about it yet. There is a LOT of natural gas activity around here and they have suspended drilling new wells in a lot of cases because there is nowhere for it to go right now. Unless hydraulic fracking is outlawed, there is gobs just laying out there waiting for the market price to make it sensible to get it.

[David Weaver]

I realize this thread is old but I'm doing some homework as it looks like it might be wise for me to invest in a new central unit. My existing unit is a Rheem about 20 years old. Three or four years ago I had to add refrigerant; last year I replaced a motor which was nearly $500 and now it needs a lot of refrigerant again. The repairman says several pounds which could cost cost $500 to $600. I anticipated this and was prepared to start shopping to replace the entire system.

Since the Rheem has performed quite well and reliably I have no qualms about buying another. My house is about 2500 square feet plus a basement which I heat and cool.

I would appreciate any new input as I expect to begin shopping immediately.

How much is several? I have to have coolant (R22) added to my A/C about every 5 years. Usually about 2 pounds. This time around, 2 pounds of R-22 cost me $80 plus the plumber's flat one-hour service fee. The last time I got it 5 years ago, I clipped a coupon from the paper for one of those $95 check your furnace and air conditioning deals, and the plumber who came that time put two pounds in and didn't charge me anything above the $95 deal price.

I have an old furnace from 1983, and the A/C isn't probably any newer, so it's by no means efficient. The total incremetal cost for electricity over the summer for me (over the winter use) is about $250, or perhaps a little less. It just doesn't make a lot of sense for me to spend the money right now to get something more efficient when the add-coolant cost can be averaged out to about $35 a year.

In both cases, the coolant was added by large long-established residental HVAC companies that are well known here.

[Matt Meiser]

We are still happy with the Trane heat pump, but ours did have a bad brazed joint from the factory which required re-brazing by our contractor. Of course that didn't show up until it was HOT out last summer and it just wouldn't keep up. The first time they thought it was because it was charged in the cool fall weather which can result in a low charge. The second time they got us through the weekend with a recharge then came Monday morning to fix it right. It can happen and it was handled without hassle (including quick evening service calls to get us cool) which I think is the true test.

I think you are better finding a GOOD contractor and going with whichever good brand of equipment they carry than finding a good brand of equipment and going with whichever contractor carries it. Good contractors aren't always the ones with the prettiest paint jobs on their trucks.

[Mike Null]

I've been using the same contractor for about 15 years. He explained that the price of this refrigerant has skyrocketed and that in the near future it will be banned. The first pound was $95 then $80 per pound after that. He didn't know how much but said 4 to 6 pounds.

At 20 years old there can't be much more life in this system so I am inclined to replace it.

[David Weaver]

Here in California (relatively close to the coast), I have a real problem when thinking of upgrading my AC. We only use it about two or three months out of the year, and not every day or all day, at that. So even if I decrease my electricity use by half, it will take a long time to pay for the increased cost of a very high SEER unit.

Mike

You could go with amish air conditioning. It's very cost effective :)

[David Weaver]

At 20 years old there can't be much more life in this system so I am inclined to replace it.

Don't let your air conditioner talk to my air conditioner!

(I see the contractor price for R-22 online shipped is about $15 a pound or a little less. Maybe he's giving you R-12 or something further along on the banned list)

[Phil Thien]

I've been using the same contractor for about 15 years. He explained that the price of this refrigerant has skyrocketed and that in the near future it will be banned. The first pound was $95 then $80 per pound after that. He didn't know how much but said 4 to 6 pounds.

At 20 years old there can't be much more life in this system so I am inclined to replace it.

Wow, those #'s seem real high to me. Google's shopping feature says thirty pounds of R22 should run about $300 to $600.

I'd get another opinion.

[Matt Meiser]

Mikes numbers line up with a recent news article I read.

[Phil Thien]

Mikes numbers line up with a recent news article I read.

http://www.amazon.com/R-22-Refrigerant-30lb/dp/B003KUYSIW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337047338&sr=8-1

Maybe the stuff I'm seeing for $10 - $12 per pound isn't the same stuff we're talking about?

[David Weaver]

Mikes numbers line up with a recent news article I read.

Bizarre for R22, given that it's still in production. My bill (as I mentioned, from a fairly high-priced full freight place) itemized it as $40 per pound installed. That was April 27th this year.

I saw 30 pound tanks delivered including tank for $425.

As phil said, I'd be inclined to call another plumber and find out what they charge for the same coolant. If it's 4-6 pounds, and the service charges are the same, that's a big price difference.

[Kevin W Johnson]

My unit is R-22, and in a preemptive strike I bought a 30lb can when the price was about $90 or so. Add to that whats left of the partial 30lb can when the unit was installed, and I'm covered.

[Mike Henderson]

A long time ago, maybe 20 years ago now, I bought a 30 pound tank of R22 and a set of gauges. When my air conditioner is low on coolant, I add the R22 myself. I also bought a 30 pound bottle of R12 at the same time (which was used in autos). Now that a new coolant is used in cars, I sold the bottle of R12 at a pretty good price per pound. It would have been a good investment to buy a warehouse full of R12 bottles back then. Did a lot better than the stock market.

Mike