Anybody NOT use a bench vise?

[Jake Rothermel]

So, I finally have some space in my apartment to put together a small workbench after not having one for almost two years. I have a decent amount of salvaged lumber [3x5s of poplar pulled off MAJOR pallets from school] to make something small - probably a 24"x48" bench. I don't see myself building dressers and cabinets anytime soon in this place so this size fits the space I have for a 'shop' and will be decent enough for the projects I have in mind; and I figured down the road - when I can replace it with a larger bench [space permitting] in a larger home - it could become a really good sharpening station or assembly table or just a smaller bench. Waste not, want not, etc. I'm leaning towards Peter Follansbee's design; pegged joints and wedged stretchers since it'll likely have to be a break-down model of SOME kind. I'm a grad student on a severe budget and I don't see myself being able to afford a vise [front or leg or tail or end or what-have-you] anytime soon. And even if I can spend the money on one one for this bench, I'm not sure I'd want one or use one or if there are alternatives to a vise I'd be more interested in using or exploring first.

For instance, I'm curious to try using holdfasts and plane stops instead; maybe build a crotchet in place of a face vise. That kind of thing. I've read a lot over the past two years but have had nearly NO hands-on time so I've lots of IDEAS but no experiences on this concept [or a lot of others, come to think of it].

ANYWHO... My question is more like a poll. How many of you use bench vises or do NOT use bench vises or something inbetween? And, what do you primarily use your vises for?

Thanks for your time; I always learn a lot from you guys and this forum so I know I'll get a LOT of answers and they'll be honest. I appreciate that.

Jake

[Jim Koepke]

Jake,

There are many ways to get around having a vise. If the front of your bench has an apron, then a board can be supported by dogs along the apron with the end stop being the crotchet.

Without an apron a couple of long clamps under the bench could suffice for edge planing. If the legs are made flush to the front edge of the bench, then they can provide support with dogs and clamps. A couple of mortises on the under side of the bench could provide places to hook a clamp or two for other needs.

All one needs is a little improvising to hold the work still.

I have never heard of something not being built well because the vise wasn't proper.

jtk

[Zahid Naqvi]

personally I can't imagine working without a vise, but I can see how one can get around it if you are a little creative with some clamps. I had a 24"x60" bench for several years with a HomeDepot special $20 vise and I could get a lot of work done on it. If I have space for a 24x48 table I certainly has space to add another 2-3" of space on one side for a vise. You will need to buy clamps if you are going to do glue ups of any kind. If you are on a budget Harbor Freight is your best WWing buddy, find one within driving distance and wait for the stuff you want to go on sale. You can get some serious discounts on clamps and such.

[Jerome Hanby]

You know, this talk about clamps just sparked a memory. Check out the newfangled workbench. As I recall, it was cheap to build and incorporated pipe clamps implement the vises. let me see if i can find a picture...204005

Kind of small, but I think you can see the pertinent details. Just Google it for more information. Looked at the article and it says 6 pipe clamps and some framing lumber...

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I built a dozen or so electric guitars with a "workbench" that consisted of portions of the porch railing in my old third story apartment. I flattened some of the 2x6s that made the top of it. When I needed a large surface, I'd screw a thick piece of wood across a corner. (It had a railing around the cutout where the stairs descended.) I had no vise, and used very few clamps. I did most of my planing by working into the 6x6 vertical post at the end of the railing.

In my new place, as I begin to slog on building a bench, I've done a lot of work with a few bench hooks and the kitchen counter. One of them is sort of "normal" for sawing work, the other is (or was, it became part of my sawbench) a few feet long, out of 2x material, with stops screwed both in the end and along the side.

Having had the opportunity to work on proper benches, vises are awesome, but you can do a whole lot by simply putting stops against the action of the tool, and it's often faster to not have to keep locking and unlocking the material in a vise. I know for long stock prep and joinery sessions, I'd rather have a bench that was at the proper height for the task rather than a fancy vise given the choice of just one. (My arms are still sore from planing too long at a too high height.)

And as others have said, you can get quite creative with clamps. My favorite trick (I used to use this a lot for edge planing) is to clamp material in a wooden handscrew vise and then clamp that to the tabletop.

[john brenton]

I've seen a few versions of those pipe clamp benches, and its never made any sense. It seems like another example of the false economies we consider in our efforts to save. Pipe clamps are about, what? 15 bucks a piece plus tax? That's at least a hundred bucks and in the end you're fairly limited. The pipe aint cheap either.

[James Owen]

I have and use the vises on my bench a large portion of the time, but there are plenty of times when I don't bother.

A planing stop -- as simple as a straight thin board (3/16" to 1/4" thick x 4" to 6"+ wide [for stiffness] x as long as the width of your bench) held to the top of your bench with a couple of holdfasts or C clamps -- works very well. Add a side batten or two (held to your bench by clamps or holdfasts), depending on the length of your work piece, and you've stopped it from moving away from you across your bench while planing across the grain.

Put a crochet on one end of the long side of your bench and clamp a 2 X 4 to the legs at the appropriate depth for the board whose edge you're working on, and you're set to square and flatten edges.

Make a portable wooden vise, ala Schwartz, {http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/joinery/need-a-moxon-double-screw-vise} out of some 2 X 6s and a couple of oak or maple dowels (you can do the threading yourself with a relatively inexpensive thread box and tap) and you have the means to hold work pieces for dovetailing, tenon work, etc. Just clamp it to the top of your bench along the front edge, whenever you need it, and remove it when you're finished with it. (If you make it 24" to 26" between screws, you can put almost all of the work you will ever need to -- for dovetailing, etc. -- in it, including bookcase sides, carcass sides for chests of drawers, etc.)

Tools for Working Wood has really nice holdfasts (about $32/pair); two pairs will do everything you need to do. Or, if you need to go even less expensive, 4 decent quality C clamps will do the trick, although not quite as well as the holdfasts.

Later, when you have more room, a bigger bench, and a bigger tool budget, you could add a vise or two, but after working for a while with the above methods (or similar) you may not want to.....

[Steve Branam]

Here's a series of 4 blog posts I did about building Roy Underhill's portable workbench: http://www.closegrain.com/2010/08/portable-workbench.html. Workholding consists of holdfasts, stops, and crochet (he calls it a "frog"). I also use a Veritas wonder dog with it sometimes, and occasionally clamps for some awkward setup. The last post shows how to use the bench for various operations. This is the bench I use for teaching or other projects away from home.

At home I use a Schwarz/Roubo bench, again with holdfasts, stops, crochet, and wonder dog, but also with the leg vise.

Also, with both, either a bench-on-bench or Moxon double-screw vise is a big help with the joinery, held down with holdfasts.

[Harvey Pascoe]

Years ago I tried to get away without a vice and that was hopeless, even for amateur work. I finally went for a small, cheap vice and that was almost as bad as no vice. When I finally bit the bullet and bought the big Veritas, there was no looking back on cutting corners, except . . . I do not have a line of bench dogs for holding boards on the bench or vice jaws. I've only got two dogs for stops on a homemade bench for planing. While that is adequate, its less than great.

[Roy Lindberry]

I still haven't built by bench, though I'm getting much closer. The lumber for the base is acclimating in the shop right now. I'll be getting the lumber for the top and the hardware fairly soon.

Right now, I have a bench that is slapped together out of 2x4s with an old countertop on the top. I have a machinists vice mounted on it. I've put some wooden jaws on it to keep from scarring any wood, and so far that's worked ok, though it will be completely obsolete when my bench is built. But for me, it has worked as a temporary measure. You could probably pick up an old one at a garage sale for a reasonable price.

The real question you need to ask is, How creative are you? There are a lot of workarounds, and many are cheap alternatives, but you usually sacrifice time instead.

[john brenton]

Other thing not mentioned was that it depends on your tools. I expected a certain creeker to respond immediately to tell us about how the Japanese don't use bench vises and everything they do is superior. Hmm, go figure. If you use western saws not having a bench stinks. If you were to use pull saws you could do quite a bit with only the most basic of tables and some clamps. I made some pretty decent stuff with a ryoba just using my drafting table.

[Jake Rothermel]

Wow, thanks gents for - it nothing else - proving me right in the honest and helpful info dept. Steve, I've been a reader of your blog for a while and I always appreciate the detail you go into [and the plethora of pictures] to get across what you want to say. The wonder dog/pup/whatever from Veritas has crossed my mind a few times but, like I said, I'm a tight TIGHT budget so it's not in the cards. The Bay of E feels useless in finding a vise worth having that isn't super expensive, too. I used to watch for certain kinds all the time but have kind of given up. Garage/Estate sales in Pittsburgh are few and far between even when I have the time for them.

I'm not REALLY complaining. Woodworking is a hobby and I can't justify spending a ton of money these days on a hobby. I'm fine with that. It's always fascinating to find solutions to problems on the basis of "I can't afford the easy way out." But I always love to hear what you guys have to say about it, too.

Jim and Joshua [and others who have mentioned it], I think you guys are dead-on with the clamps suggestions. I don't know that I'll be building bunches of pipe clamps into this bench but I already have some holdfasts [coincidentally, FROM TFWW] so I suppose I'm already starting down that path. PS- I LOVE the wooden clamp clamped to the bench idea; geez, that seems so simple.

Thanks, guys.
jake

[Bob Glenn]

I have a bench with a vise inside my small shop, however, weather permitting I do a lot of work outside on a bench attached to the back of my garage. It has no vise and the top is two pressure treated 2x10's. There is a 2x10 apron with four cutouts along the top edge, which I can slide 2x4's into to extend out to lay larger sheet goods. I use hold fasts in the apron to hold boards on edge for planing. I use a wood screw as a stop on top for surface planning. I haven't really found anything I can't do with this simple setup. Since the 2x10 are cheap, I don't hesitate boring new holes for positioning hold fasts.

[john brenton]

The wooden clamp clamped to the work bench is a fine solution to the problem of not having a proper bench, and I did it for a while there. You can even clamp it to your sawing bench if you have a wide plank you're edge planing.

But still, in the end, the historical benches we all see and admire are still around and still admirable for a reason.

[Dale Sautter]

Bet you could find a way to make one of these (http://www.benchcrafted.com/MoxonVise.html) work... :)

[Tony Shea]

Recently my girlfriend has been doing some Woodworking with me in the shop, building herself a dovetailed walnut box. Happens to be her first attempt at WW and I am absolutely shocked at how well her dovetails came out, I will have to show them off in another post.

The point is that she usually has no vise to work with as I am always on mine, or almost always. And she just sets herself up with a large wooden double screw clamp, clamped to the top of the bench. She overhangs it so the back jaw is flush to the edge of the bench and she can clamp as large a board as she needs, especially with some support below on the face of my bench and another on the other edge of the board. IMO, I think having at least two of these clamps and a couple C or F clamps can get you by for a long time without a face vise. Add some leather or cork (what she used) to the faces of these wooden clamps and they really hold very well.

[Jerome Hanby]

She may be doing so well for the same reason it's easier to teach someone who has never handled a gun to shoot well, no bad habits to unlearn...


Recently my girlfriend has been doing some Woodworking with me in the shop, building herself a dovetailed walnut box. Happens to be her first attempt at WW and I am absolutely shocked at how well her dovetails came out, I will have to show them off in another post.

The point is that she usually has no vise to work with as I am always on mine, or almost always. And she just sets herself up with a large wooden double screw clamp, clamped to the top of the bench. She overhangs it so the back jaw is flush to the edge of the bench and she can clamp as large a board as she needs, especially with some support below on the face of my bench and another on the other edge of the board. IMO, I think having at least two of these clamps and a couple C or F clamps can get you by for a long time without a face vise. Add some leather or cork (what she used) to the faces of these wooden clamps and they really hold very well.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Having a vise makes life a lot easier. Not having one should not be crippling. I value my vises on my benches, but every year for 12 or 13 years I have done demos of hand tool woodworking at both the League of NH CRaftsman's 9 day Sunapee Craft Fair and at Wood Days at the Canterbury Shaker Village. At Canterbury only last year for the first time did I have a bench and a vise. Normally I was working on a 3/4" thick door placed on 2 sawhorses. I've made bowsaws, dovetailed boxes,and other things with just a few wooden C clamps to hold the work. I would advise drilling for round dogs. The holes can be used for holdfasts, a stop can be made by attaching a small thin square of wood to the top of a dowel sized to fit the holes, and you can of course use holdfasts in them. Creativity can't always trump the expenditure of money, but it can come pretty close to leveling things.

[Sean Hughto]

Anybody NOT use a bench vise?

The japanese.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/34558/seen-at-colonial-williamsburg-japanese-tools-force-a-new-stance-on-woodworking

[Jake Rothermel]

A hearty [and only SLIGHTLY bittersweet] thanks goes to to you, Sean for posting that article. I'd never seen a bench like that before. Now you've got me rethinking my entire bench project! I know I'm moving at least once more and likely more times than that; I know my bench is going to have to break down easily. Now I'm looking at Andrew Hunter's set up and wondering if I can use the two 'saw horses' idea and leave the top free-floating... Thanks, just when I thought I'd figured it all out!!!

Seriously, though - this is why I love this forum: So many good craftsmen with so many good ideas. Probably TOO MANY good ideas; I mean, I can only build ONE bench!

I know a bench is supposed to reflect how you work and I've been all over the friggin' map [partly because of what Jerome said above about not having many bad habits to have to ditch...]. I have some western planes but I like japanese saws... maybe my bench can also reflect that. Maybe in a month I'll realize I'm nuts and go back to square one...

[Peter Scoma]

Bet you could find a way to make one of these (http://www.benchcrafted.com/MoxonVise.html) work... :)

Wow. Why would anyone pay 150$ let alone 300$ for a portable twin screw instead of installing one on their bench.

To the OP. Get a dirt cheap vise screw and make a leg vise. I am a grad student as well and I get being on a limited budget, however, if you can't spare 20$ for a piece of hardware, I don't see you being able to do much WW'ing at all with or without it.

PJS

[Jim Matthews]

I'm in the process of refitting my cheapo bench with storage cabinet.

I have two essential processes for my bench, edge planing and surfacing on all six sides of a board.
My front vise has been more hinderance than help, so I've migrated to using a crochet.

The deadman rides on a piece of leftover hand rail, and fits into a retaining strip with a groove under the bench top.

I believe some form of front vise clamp is essential, at least at my skill level. Even the Nicholson, English style benches use holdfasts for the purpose of clamping.



My intention is to build a leg vise using pipe clamps. As much as I admire the Hovarter and BenchCrafted designs - they're nearly $400.
So far, the biggest challenge was in relocating the top to give enough room for the leg vise and crochet.

Pictures to follow...

[harry strasil]

My demo bench has a leg vise on the end, but I use bench dogs and wedges mostly. So it is possible to work without a vise if you really want to, kinda makes you wonder what they did before someone invented the vise.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?38637-Pictures-and-description-of-my-bench-(-11-pictures)&highlight=bench

It also has a crochet vise now, (not shown in that thread), but its identical to the one on my nu bench.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/album.php?albumid=551&attachmentid=179609

[Bob Winkler]

I'd never seen a bench like that before. Now you've got me rethinking my entire bench project! ..

I second the thanks for the link. Like Jake, I'm rethinking the legs of my workbench to be like the monster saw horses shown in the link. They remind me of a past FWW article about building horses with 2 moveable beams for flexibility- except these are much more substantial. Since I already have the thick, heavy top completed, I'm thinking about building these bases and just resting the top on them. Love the idea that I can change the design in the future and still use the practical horses for something else.

Bob

[James Owen]

Other thing not mentioned was that it depends on your tools. I expected a certain creeker to respond immediately to tell us about how the Japanese don't use bench vises and everything they do is superior. Hmm, go figure. If you use western saws not having a bench stinks. ....

Interesting. I find using a back saw to cut joinery (tenons, dovetails, etc) on a standard height bench pretty comfortable and "easy." Using a full-sized hand saw or panel saw on the same bench to rip or cross-cut is much less comfortable and often less accurate. For me, a low (knee-height) saw bench is a lot easier and a lot more accurate to use for cross-cutting and ripping using full-sized/panel saws than trying to do those same operations on a standard height workbench.....